Posted to Facebook:

LA Bunker News:

On Sunday, February 24th the Games Workshop Los Angeles Battle Bunker will be closing its doors, to be re envisioned and reopened as a Games Workshop Hobby Center. The new doors will open on Thursday, February 27th.

We thank all of our customers for their patronage and participation in the activities and events that have been showcased at the Los Angeles Battle Bunker over the years. Though our new store won’t be designed around hosting large scale events, you can be assured that you will still have access to the same, great range of Games Workshop product as before, with the ability to enjoy a friendly game and improve your hobby skills in a smaller environment.

This Games Workshop Hobby Center format will allow us to better deliver on great customer service to our wide range of customers who are working on their own collections of models. This change also allows us to better focus on recruiting new customers to our great hobby.

We truly appreciate all of our customers support within the Los Angeles Battle Bunker and we would like to invite you to visit the new Hobby Center beginning on February 27th.

So, what do you guys think?

So its official now. Great, one less place to play in the OC area, thats what we need.

Seems like a solid business move. If something isn't making money, you close it. The retail area of a bunker is no bigger then a one man store...but it has to support a huge gaming area. People playing games doesn't = them buying things.

GW stores aren't the only place to play or even buy their product, it looks like to me that GW is making some big and tough decisions to try to be/remain profitable.

I know the 20 pages following this will be "Yup, GW is dying...I told you that my venom would work...hate hate hate". Ultimately it's a company making decisions to be profitable, they are opening many more stores then they are closing/downsizing.

Flame away GW haters..lol

The inexorable march of the 1-man store continues...

almostreal wrote:


Flame away GW haters..lol

I think you just did all that with stellar performance. You should be proud of yourself

Haven't you all heard GW's new motto "give me your money and get the hell out".

almostreal wrote: Ultimately it's a company making decisions to be profitable, they are opening many more stores then they are closing/downsizing.

This may be true, but it doesn't make it any less sad. Big stores with gaming space create more of an incentive for community (or at least so I imagine).

H.B.M.C. wrote:The inexorable march of the 1-man store continues...

Yeah... Pretty lame.

While it sucks, if maintaining brand name stores was a profitable endeavor, Privateer Would have at least one. But they don't. Keeping a retail location open is hardly cheap.

What are the nearest stores with gaming tables?

Can't say I'm too terribly surprised. It has to have been loosing money. It got hurt bad by a number of GW decisions. The quality of the staff also went down hill. I've been by a lot less ever since, 1) a staffer pulled a knife on me (gak move, even if done in jest), and 2) another staffer identified me to my boss as "that guy with a drinking problem."

Cutting the ability to sell forgeworld, cutting hours in the afternoon (you know, when there are people in the store), and hiring morons does not make for good business.

Everywhere I go people post about other gaming options, Game Empire being the most brought up. Thats incredibly far from me. I sit in hour and a half traffic every day going to work, the last thing I want to do is the same thing on a weekend. And before you say it, traffic sucks on the weekends around here, sometimes as badly as the weekday.

The LA battle bunker was the only GW retail outlet worth going to that I'd ever stopped in on, sad news. That said, the retail space couldn't have been cheap and it wasn't exactly a stupendous location.

 sharkticon wrote:
1) a staffer pulled a knife on me (gak move, even if done in jest), and 2) another staffer identified me to my boss as "that guy with a drinking problem."

Well, if the second one is true, that might explain the first one.

I'd say one down, 79 to go, but they're techncially not even closing it, just downsizing it.

I'm not terribly surprised, since 1.) GW Stores are generally a bad idea in the US and 2.) One of the two times I ventured to the Glendale one-man-hole-in-the-wall, he mentioned that he sells more stuff than the Battle Bunker does, and I simply can't imagine he sells huge amounts.

You know they are opening more stores in the US, not less, right?

I'm fully aware that that's their goal, and I still think they're wasting time and money.

 pretre wrote:
You know they are opening more stores in the US, not less, right?

And that makes even less sense...

RatBot wrote:I'm fully aware that that's their goal, and I still think they're wasting time and money.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And that makes even less sense...

Yeah, I'm not sure how the financials work out on this*. Apparently though they know something I don't and think that the 1 man stores are a great idea. I know they just put on into Portland and Become Legendary is constantly advising of more positions and stores.

* I'm guessing that the overhead on a one-man must just be so low that it makes it economical to have lots of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note, I always thought of the bunkers and bigger stores with gaming space as a type of loss leader. You provide this kind of space in order to draw people in. Now, I've never been to the LABB, but maybe it wasn't providing even that much.

@Ratbot

I don't think it is. They pay a pretty poor yearly salary (say 32k on average) and are no longer in high end locations. This means, in the current economy, their rent is probably ridiculously low (even in Cali).

Consider that in a beach town (where the yearly temperature pretty much sits at 75-85) in a crap mall outside of a Sears very few english speaking people came out of the store made well over 200k a year in sales. That was with an average of 5 walk-in on a weekday at most (we kept track).

Seems a sound business decision.

@Petre

It did provide solid gaming space and the manager was a good dude. The problem is that it also provided a place for disgruntled "vets" to congregate and act like Dakka usually does in regards to GW. Hence why the original goal of retail stores was to work with FLGS's. GW recruits and then shifts the ones that stick and start to get more involved over to the FLGS.

If im understaning this right ,there will be alot of displaced bunker regulars ,but where will you all go?

See, that makes a fair amount of sense. (Layman's memory here but...) isn't the highest cost for most retail businesses salary?

 pretre wrote:

 sharkticon wrote:
1) a staffer pulled a knife on me (gak move, even if done in jest), and 2) another staffer identified me to my boss as "that guy with a drinking problem."

Well, if the second one is true, that might explain the first one.

Lol. Never got drunk at the Bunker, even before I sobered up, I knew that was a bad place to drink. The knife came out due to a joke about invul saves after someone shot me with a nerf gun.

 combatmedic wrote:
Everywhere I go people post about other gaming options, Game Empire being the most brought up. Thats incredibly far from me. I sit in hour and a half traffic every day going to work, the last thing I want to do is the same thing on a weekend. And before you say it, traffic sucks on the weekends around here, sometimes as badly as the weekday.

Pasadena or San Diego? Just asking because the nightmare of SoCal traffic, it is sometimes quicker to drive to San Diego from LA than from one part of LA to another. Took me once 3-12 hours to drive 20 miles in LA.....

silent25 wrote:
Took me once 3-12 hours to drive 20 miles in LA.....

That's a pretty big range for that trip... Did it involve psychoactives?

Worst drive ever for me. 8 Hours to go from Moorpark to Los Alamitos. 45 minutes without traffic. And I started drving at noon....

Normally it's much more reasonable. Though I'm talking reasonable to someone who grew up in SoCal traffic

Why would you even do that? :boggles:

Is it one of those things where you could have started at 7 and got there at 8 instead?

I mean, I've seen my share of traffic, but LA just needs to be nuked from orbit.

Work. For a few weeks I was commuting till I transferred and I worked 4am-1230pm. I could get to work in 45 minutes at 3am. But that time was just hell. I started on the 405, jumped to the 5, and then jumped to the 605. All of them were crap.....It was a bad, bad day.....But I only encountered something like that once. Timing is important if you're driving in LA.

silent25 wrote:

 combatmedic wrote:
Everywhere I go people post about other gaming options, Game Empire being the most brought up. Thats incredibly far from me. I sit in hour and a half traffic every day going to work, the last thing I want to do is the same thing on a weekend. And before you say it, traffic sucks on the weekends around here, sometimes as badly as the weekday.

Pasadena or San Diego? Just asking because the nightmare of SoCal traffic, it is sometimes quicker to drive to San Diego from LA than from one part of LA to another. Took me once 3-12 hours to drive 20 miles in LA.....

Only one I know of is the Pasadena one. Its a good hour away in open traffic. The bunker was at most 20 minutes. Every FLGS I went to would close down, I started going to the bunker. Im one of those unlucky few who is in that middle road for prime gaming locations. Maybe Im lazy but I cant justify driving an hour to play a game every other week.

Contact landlord who is now out a tenant.
Make a deal.
Open new FLGS...
Profit?

Seems to be working in Baltimore....

 pretre wrote:
Contact landlord who is now out a tenant.
Make a deal.
Open new FLGS...
Profit?

The FB post didn't indicate they were moving out, just reorganizing into a one-man shop. They're probably reducing floorspace for the GW store and having the rest allocated for a new shop or taken over by an existing shop on either side of the GW store.

What Breotan said.

They're basically scrapping the gaming side and dumping all but one of the staff members.

I suppose from a corporate standpoint they'll be making a better profit, as right now they're actually paying for 3 store lots.
They'll definitely be making less sales with the absence of players, but with a lower rent and a few less employees, I can understand why they're doing it.

Shame that I'll have to find a new location to play at though.

One salesman should be enough to serve a small community like .... LOS ANGELES???

Well, to be fair, there are something like 8 GW stores in the Los Angeles area (within 50 miles of the centre of LA), albeit mostly on the edges. Of course, there are also something like 30 independent retailers in the same area.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/storelocator/search.jsp#page=results&radius=50&address=Los%20Angeles%2C%20CA%2C%20USA&latlng=34.052234,-118.243685&showGWS=true&showIndependantRetailers=true

Map's not 100% accurate since it still shows Dragon's Den Games on Sunset, which AFAIK hasn't existed in at least two years.

Love the typical marketing BS:

In order to serve you better we are giving you less.

Just be honest for your reasons and not spew out meaningless drivel,

 pretre wrote:
Contact landlord who is now out a tenant.
Make a deal.
Open new FLGS...
Profit?

"Open a new FLGS" and "Profit" are, sadly, very rarely seen in the same sentence...

What's the old saw? "How do you make a small fortune in gaming"? Start with a large one!

Valete,

JohnS

 Hulksmash wrote:
Seems to be working in Baltimore....

What makes you say that? The old Bunker location was a draw for people all over, even outside of the state.

The new Bunker is, from what I know, much less frequented. I don't even know why they opened it. The old manager of the OLD bunker opened up a new, independent FLGS in the awesome old Bunker location. It's doing quite well, and I don't go into GW stores hardly ever now, and thus don't have to stick to buying their models.

I think the decision to close the Bunker in the Baltimore area, give little to no news of what their plans were, and then suddenly re-open it in the middle of nowhere was really poor decision from a business perspective. Obviously, I don't have their numbers, but the old bunker did tons of business and as I said, was a draw for a huge area.

It's not cheap to start up, then close, then set up new stores either. From everyone I know who posts here OTHER than BrassScorpion, the new Bunker has been a flop and they've taken their business elsewhere. And it can't be to draw in new folks because of its' location.

"GW knowing something I don't" doesn't work for me when I can see with my own eyes the result on the gaming community. Which is, the community is fine, but many people started supporting other companies now that they're playing in independent stores. Great for the hobby, bad for GW.

But they'll stick to their strategy to the bitter end, because they can effectively recruit a few more people into the hobby, while losing the business of the established community. Smart companies realize that you can try to do both, without alienating either group. *Shrug* they'll learn as they lose more and more market share, and again it's good for the hobby/community at large, so I say keep on going

I never went here, not simply because there are closer places, but because the rabid, pushy, aggressive attempts by the staff to sell me as much as possible were tremendously irritating. I won't mourn this loss, though for those who did like to go there for the tournaments/space for gaming, this does kinda suck.

-C6

"you can be assured that you will still have access to the same, great range of Games Workshop product as before"

oh wow, thank god for that, one cant possibly get these anywhere else. Oh well I guess yet another group of gamers will learn the joys of internet discounts

As I posted above (rather long-windedly) though, it could actually be a good thing for the community. Turn to an independent store, open up horizons to new gaming, and let the days of being able to Only use GW models/rules/products lay behind you

There's a wide world of miniature collecting out there, and GW is shoving their fan-base out into it

 catharsix wrote:
I never went here, not simply because there are closer places, but because the rabid, pushy, aggressive attempts by the staff to sell me as much as possible were tremendously irritating. I won't mourn this loss, though for those who did like to go there for the tournaments/space for gaming, this does kinda suck.

-C6

I went there a few times. But I was usually ignored after they realized I wasn't interested in buying anything and just wanted to get in on a game. Actually, it seemed like if you weren't a regular they treated you like a nobody.

Sympathies for those that enjoyed the space.

 azgrim wrote:
If im understaning this right ,there will be alot of displaced bunker regulars ,but where will you all go?

There's a store called Mercenary Market about 10 miles down the freeway which should benefit from the Bunker losing its gaming space. Otherwise game stores (with dedicated space) in O.C. are rather limited. The Realm is great, but would be quite a drive for most Bunker regulars.

@RiTides

Take a breath buddy. I was referring to Pretre's comment about renting the same spot and opening a FLGS. As I'd heard that's what the previous Baltimore Bunker manager did and the store is doing well. Could be wrong, I obviously don't live in the area

And so the war gaming desert that is the south bay area continues to grow.

I hope a gaming club or store opens up soon in the immediate Torrance area.

Can't wait until those idiots realize that its the gaming space that gets the income. More time spent in store = dwindling self control. That's how it was at my GW. Fired the manager for not being a cut throat business man, cut tables in half reopened. Curiously, 2 managers later they put tables back. Gee, wonder why.

On a side note, I imagine we will be seeing a lot more "reopening" bunkers as Emperor I mean CEO/Chairman Kirby gains complete control

Well this is unfortunate news. My friends and I just started going to the bunker in September and have enjoyed the staff and regulars there.

Does Brookhurst Hobbies have table space or is it just a retailer?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Well this is unfortunate news. My friends and I just started going to the bunker in September and have enjoyed the staff and regulars there.

Does Brookhurst Hobbies have table space or is it just a retailer?

If I recall they have a table or two at the front of the store (not sure in the back) but every time i go some one is playing something on it.

With the amount of internet discount retailers are folks really surprised at the down sizing of brick and mortar and one man stores?

 Breotan wrote:
Posted to Facebook:

So, what do you guys think?

Does this mean Yvette will be the only employee there? Or is Drew finally getting that promotion he wanted, monkey's paw-style?

Frankly, I think this is a fairly self-destructive move on GW's part, although I admit I have no idea how much they were taking in versus the rent. Brookhurst Hobbies is 10 minutes away, offers a discount (only 10% now, due to economic troubles, although they do have many sales), and has room for gaming. They also have a huge aisle of Warmahordes, Dust, Infinity and Malifaux between the door/POS and the GW items. The battle bunker used to be much busier than BH, but I can't see the crowd paying full retail without the draw of gaming tables and painting space.

Unfortunately, I think this will hurt the local gaming scene, too. The battle bunker was very friendly and inviting, and according to my wife, far less creepy. (Although still kind of creepy.)

 Byte wrote:
With the amount of internet discount retailers are folks really surprised at the down sizing of brick and mortar and one man stores?

No...and yes.

One of the things which GW always uses to provide cause for their pricing (as well as GW supporters) is that they provide a popular game that is easily accessible through their stores. Dropping to one man stores works against that claim.

nickthewise wrote:

There's a store called Mercenary Market about 10 miles down the freeway which should benefit from the Bunker losing its gaming space. Otherwise game stores (with dedicated space) in O.C. are rather limited. The Realm is great, but would be quite a drive for most Bunker regulars.

I've never been to mercenary market how is the crowd there?What is the best day for random gaming?Do they ever run tournaments?

Sad news. I just started playing 40k last year and the major appeal for me was that there was gaming space. I just started a skaven army that will probably only see a few games. I can't see the one man shop working out that well, because you can get the same product cheaper and just as easy elsewhere. The ONLY reason I bought things from the BattleBunker was to support the gaming space. I gladly pay 10%+ more for the same product because I felt I needed to support the store. Now if the gaming area is gone there is no reason to go there. It is easier for me to go to say Brookhurst hobbies and buy all the same product + get any materials I need and get a 10% discount on everything. I do not see how the one man GW will possibly survive.

I am very curious to find out where the bunker regulars are going to go.

I think rent in LA is rediculous

Could not find Mercenary Market anywhere. I have been to the Realm before but it has always been a ghost town in terms of table space.
Good friends with people from Brookhurst but they just dont have GW gaming that often.
I grew up the the war house, but their space is super limited, and the last time I was there it was yugioh and other card games on sat/sunday nights. May have to see if there is a local gaming group in the area if the trip to Pasadena is too much/the crowd there is too elitist for me.

 azgrim wrote:

nickthewise wrote:

There's a store called Mercenary Market about 10 miles down the freeway which should benefit from the Bunker losing its gaming space. Otherwise game stores (with dedicated space) in O.C. are rather limited. The Realm is great, but would be quite a drive for most Bunker regulars.

I've never been to mercenary market how is the crowd there?What is the best day for random gaming?Do they ever run tournaments?

I've been there a few times, and the folks are really nice, it's spacious, a ton of terrain, and some regular gaming nights (GW, PP, and more).

I'd definitely recommend it. I've been going there rather than the other nearby GW store in Tustin (with just two tables).

-C6

 catharsix wrote:

 azgrim wrote:

nickthewise wrote:

There's a store called Mercenary Market about 10 miles down the freeway which should benefit from the Bunker losing its gaming space. Otherwise game stores (with dedicated space) in O.C. are rather limited. The Realm is great, but would be quite a drive for most Bunker regulars.

I've never been to mercenary market how is the crowd there?What is the best day for random gaming?Do they ever run tournaments?

I've been there a few times, and the folks are really nice, it's spacious, a ton of terrain, and some regular gaming nights (GW, PP, and more).

I'd definitely recommend it. I've been going there rather than the other nearby GW store in Tustin (with just two tables).

-C6

I've actually never been, but everyone who has recommends it. I think they have run at least one 40k tournament before, but I don't get the feeling they do it regularly.

Web-site: http://www.mercenary-market.com/

WellI live in Northern California up in Sacramento we have great escape games to play at. I see a lot of posts about getting product cheaper etc. My two cents is support your local game store as we all need a place to play. If you buy all your stuff online soon there will be no more places to play. I also like fostering the game commuinity.. Enjoy the games

DarkTraveler777 wrote:Well this is unfortunate news. My friends and I just started going to the bunker in September and have enjoyed the staff and regulars there.

Does Brookhurst Hobbies have table space or is it just a retailer?

Brookhurst has hardly any tables. 2 tables in the front that are usually cluttered with items that still need to be stocked. Regardless of their gaming space, the store is going to benefit greatly from this. I know a lot of people (myself included) who would occasionally buy a lot of stuff at the Bunker for the sake of "helping out" since they allowed the free gaming space. Now that that's gone... well... I like my Brookhurst discount.

BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
Posted to Facebook:

So, what do you guys think?

Does this mean Yvette will be the only employee there? Or is Drew finally getting that promotion he wanted, monkey's paw-style?

Frankly, I think this is a fairly self-destructive move on GW's part, although I admit I have no idea how much they were taking in versus the rent. Brookhurst Hobbies is 10 minutes away, offers a discount (only 10% now, due to economic troubles, although they do have many sales), and has room for gaming. They also have a huge aisle of Warmahordes, Dust, Infinity and Malifaux between the door/POS and the GW items. The battle bunker used to be much busier than BH, but I can't see the crowd paying full retail without the draw of gaming tables and painting space.

Unfortunately, I think this will hurt the local gaming scene, too. The battle bunker was very friendly and inviting, and according to my wife, far less creepy. (Although still kind of creepy.)

Drew hasn't been an employee at the Bunker for quite a while. I believe he got moved to being a manager at one of the one man stores in the area.

I heard that the LA Bunker was supposed to be huge. Sad to see it go. I hope this isn't a sign of what might happen to the Seattle Bunker.

I heard that all the remaining bunkers (except Memphis) are likely to disappear once their leases are up. To my knowledge, none of them generate an actual profit. I also expect a lot of the smaller shops in crowded (by other GW stores) areas like Seattle or LA to pull up stakes once they become unprofitable.

 Eisenhorn wrote:
I think rent in LA is rediculous

It's funny that the LA Battle Bunker isn't in LA. However, Orange County isn't much cheaper. D'oh!

I know that Brookhurst Hobbies has gaming nights and leagues, as well as sponsoring tournaments and local conventions like the SoCal SmackDown. They do have more tables in the back, which is where I suspect most of the regulars play when it gets "busy". I don't see it on their schedule, but they have a WM/H night for sure, since I know guys who go there to play. Just call them up if you have any questions. I'm sure they'll be most cooperative if you offer to get some of their Mantic stock off their hands.

There's also a place called Trinity Comics in Fountain Valley with a gaming table. They might be willing to clear a couple of stock tables, too, for the right incentive$. (They remind me of Stuart's comic book store from Big Bang Theory.)

I had no idea Mercenary Market existed, so there's a positive here. I must check that place out.

Drew is the manager at the Tustin one-man shop.

 azgrim wrote:
If im understaning this right ,there will be alot of displaced bunker regulars ,but where will you all go?

Most will quit or take up video games, the purpose of a GW store (from our side of things) is that you can go at anytime and enjoy a game any day of the week and know the stuff you want is on hand 99% of the time, now all those people will have to hunt down a store, schedule games or buy a table. In the end its just more work to have to play warhammer, and for a lot of the people that went there will consider this a personal attack or a sign of a failing company. GW is nuking its gaming communities, If you dont game, you dont spend money.

GW really cuts themselves there. It's basic psychology, seriously. When you play at GW store, you feel obliged to give sth. in return aka buying stuff. Why the hell would I now buy sth. at a GW store where I can't even play when I can just order stuff online at a 20% discount?

Genius GW is genius.

I also like how the official statement can be summed up to "FECK YOU VETERANS!"

Yeah no kidding, I almost think GW is trying to kill its veteran community.

dodicula wrote:
"you can be assured that you will still have access to the same, great range of Games Workshop product as before"

oh wow, thank god for that, one cant possibly get these anywhere else. Oh well I guess yet another group of gamers will learn the joys of internet discounts

That line pissed me off too, that was salt in wound.

 RiTides wrote:

I think the decision to close the Bunker in the Baltimore area, give little to no news of what their plans were, and then suddenly re-open it in the middle of nowhere was really poor decision from a business perspective. Obviously, I don't have their numbers, but the old bunker did tons of business and as I said, was a draw for a huge area.

This is the part of GWs plan that makes no sense. "Open destination store, kill gaming community."

When I was with the company there were 2 kinds of stores 1) Recruiter stores, the ones that were put in high foot traffic mall areas and 2) Bunkers, destination type stores that supported a big gaming community. GW dashed that concept with the one man stores in a cost cutting method, sure the store here went from $5000 a month in rent down to $1500 but it was put in a place with zero foot traffic, and GW being the way they are were still expecting the same level of sales as the mall. I saw the regulars going from 30+ down to 15, however those 15 kept that store going because the manager there was cool as hell, but then GW chased that manager away despite increasing sales and put in one of their zealous drone sell-bots whose first action was to kick out some regulars.

I cant see it working out, when you displace and piss off your customers that only want to give you money, loyalty is the last thing you should expect.

I'm no longer actually playing GW stuff

but my experience was that vets quite often never really bought anything in store (bar the odd pot of paint), but did take up a load of table space/time and were never terribly helpful when it came to newer inexperienced players wanting a game

('they should learn the game before they come in and waste out time' being a not infrequent comment)

now I'm not suggesting that exciting games with well painted models won't be a draw, but especially in stores with lots of tables I doubt they make up for the extra rent they have to pay.

It may be a real pain for the players who have lost their gaming space but any company has to make hard decisions about how long to support 'loss leader' aspects of their business.

From the sound of it there are a significant number of displaced players, so have any of them thought about getting a club togther and renting some space ?

This is an unexpected and sad start for Tom Kirby's announced campaign to plaster the USA with 700 new GW stores

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The inexorable march of the 1-man store continues...

I pity the one man.

almostreal wrote:
Flame away GW haters..lol

Oh, choke on your smugness and die.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
but my experience was that vets quite often never really bought anything in store (bar the odd pot of paint), but did take up a load of table space/time and were never terribly helpful when it came to newer inexperienced players wanting a game

And my experience was that without veteran gamers there to play against, games devolved into shouting matches between two newbies neither of whom was at all versed in the rules. But really, anecdotes have no place in discussions like this. You can find one for every imaginable position you'd care to espouse with regard to gamers, from the unwashed hobo-gamer who defecated on the floor, to the GW staffer greeting customers while wearing a rubber horse mask because he lost a bet.

 Kroothawk wrote:
This is an unexpected and sad start for Tom Kirby's announced campaign to plaster the USA with 700 new GW stores

Well there's where all our money is going.... and they fly out the managers to memphis every 3 months too. Hmm, and with them killing gaming in stores why exactly am I paying more for their stores when they have no purpose?

 Hulksmash wrote:
@RiTides

Take a breath buddy. I was referring to Pretre's comment about renting the same spot and opening a FLGS. As I'd heard that's what the previous Baltimore Bunker manager did and the store is doing well. Could be wrong, I obviously don't live in the area

Whoops, sorry and you're exactly right!

Obviously a sore spot, but I am sooooo happy about the new FLGS there!

I'm not sweating this reorg too much. I'm a GW-Glendale customer and won't drive to LA on a bet. The Glendale Store is close, there's a Starbuck's next door, it's 10 minutes away on side streets and the Manager is really great people. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize. If GW-Glendale doesn't have what I want, I order online. If I need a fix or supplies on a day he's closed, The Last Grenadier, Burbank, CA. is always a great option So meh! No great loss.

 Tresdedos wrote:
. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize.

For now....

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Tresdedos wrote:
. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize.

For now....

If it changes, it's still not the EOTW. I can go to The Last Grenadier or stop by the central library and talk about the weather with the hobos in the courtyard.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah no kidding, I almost think GW is trying to kill its veteran community.

Veterans will actually be the least impacted by actions like these. Vets are more likely to know about the various other methods which they can play their games (homes, clubs, conventions, tournaments) as well as various other sources for the products. They don't need a store to provide networking to find players in their local community as they already generally have people who they play with.

It will kill new growth though. If a kid off the street walks into the store and there isn't a cluster of people playing - he will likely not know who plays. If the store shuts down, they won't be as well prepared to find other sources of the products (not to mention most kids lacking credit cards and what not for online purchases). Kids are more reliant on stores for gaming specific items as well. I have a game room, huge table, shelves for storing more terrain than I could use at any given time...and a pony keg in the refrigerator. Your average target noob doesn't have any of that - and his parents aren't going to let him set up anything that complete anyway.

Since the company is so reliant on that fresh blood...it doesn't bode well for the long term.

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW really cuts themselves there. It's basic psychology, seriously. When you play at GW store, you feel obliged to give sth. in return aka buying stuff. Why the hell would I now buy sth. at a GW store where I can't even play when I can just order stuff online at a 20% discount?

You're not the target demographic anymore. They want the 13-year old kid to shop there. In fact they don't even want you around because you might tell the kids about shopping at online stores and ebay.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I think kids know better about anything to do with online than anybody, chris valera

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Yeah no kidding, I almost think GW is trying to kill its veteran community.

Veterans will actually be the least impacted by actions like these. Vets are more likely to know about the various other methods which they can play their games (homes, clubs, conventions, tournaments) as well as various other sources for the products. They don't need a store to provide networking to find players in their local community as they already generally have people who they play with... Since the company is so reliant on that fresh blood...it doesn't bode well for the long term.

Exactly Sean. I'm not a vet player, but I've been modeling for 40+ years. Store closings or format changes aren't going to affect guys like me. I'll shop/play somewhere else. My one man store is close by. I guess I'm lucky. It used to be a mall location. Its now in an older section of Glendale and the parking sucks. However, the folks I've met there, gamers and staff alike, are all nice folks. The people keep me coming back. GW is a corporation with stockholders that they have to satisfy. The LA Bunker obviously wasn't cost effective, so corporate changed it. As far as product offerings go, my store can get me what I want or I'll go online or shop ebay. I've never set foot in the LA Bunker, nor would I make the drive down to the store. Gas is too expensive and time is too precious. Hey! Here's an idea... close that location completely, move the Glendale Store back to the Galleria and make it the LA Bunker!

 Breotan wrote:
I heard that all the remaining bunkers (except Memphis) are likely to disappear once their leases are up. To my knowledge, none of them generate an actual profit. I also expect a lot of the smaller shops in crowded (by other GW stores) areas like Seattle or LA to pull up stakes once they become unprofitable.

Any idea how credible this source is or how soon Seattle's lease will be up?

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Tresdedos wrote:
. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize.

For now....

If the first thing Tres says that he does when he goes to this GW is "shop", then I assume that store will be ok.

I think the most telling part of this whole thing is, if you look at the bunker's facebook page...people are more interested in getting the Bunker's terrain given to them, or auctioned off then really caring about the employees or even the community.

I am all for having a place to game, but GW doesn't "owe" us this. It's obvious that the patrons of the Bunker weren't buying enough to keep the place open...now it closes. That's life. If you like your local GW, for god's sake, buy stuff there to support it. Otherwise when it closes, it's not GW's or Thom Kirby's fault..it's yours.

 RiTides wrote:
I think kids know better about anything to do with online than anybody, chris valera

My experience is that "kids" tend to be mostly clueless when navigating the internet. Most of them have grown up with web 2.0 as opposed to the real internet and have little clue at how to find things which don't have an App attached to them. The most skilled tend to be those who were coming of age during the late 1990s and early 2000s (I guess that would put them in their late 20s and early 30s now). Back then, they still had to actually know how to structure a Boolean search in order to find thing and were capable of actually deciphering a URL.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
I heard that all the remaining bunkers (except Memphis) are likely to disappear once their leases are up. To my knowledge, none of them generate an actual profit. I also expect a lot of the smaller shops in crowded (by other GW stores) areas like Seattle or LA to pull up stakes once they become unprofitable.

Any idea how credible this source is or how soon Seattle's lease will be up?

It is inline with what they have been doing and their stated goals in their financial reports. Larger areas of retail space which aren't used to actually sell product are very expensive - even in rough neighborhoods or strip mall locations. Seattle has rather more expensive rent than a lot of other locations which have already been transitioned to smaller, cheaper locations - so there really isn't any reason to think that they would not be as well.

almostreal wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Tresdedos wrote:
. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize.

For now....

If the first thing Tres says that he does when he goes to this GW is "shop", then I assume that store will be ok.

I think the most telling part of this whole thing is, if you look at the bunker's facebook page...people are more interested in getting the Bunker's terrain given to them, or auctioned off then really caring about the employees or even the community.

I am all for having a place to game, but GW doesn't "owe" us this. It's obvious that the patrons of the Bunker weren't buying enough to keep the place open...now it closes. That's life. If you like your local GW, for god's sake, buy stuff there to support it. Otherwise when it closes, it's not GW's or Thom Kirby's fault..it's yours.

So you think killing off gaming tables in stores will make it all better?

 Ravenous D wrote:

almostreal wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Tresdedos wrote:
. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize.

For now....

If the first thing Tres says that he does when he goes to this GW is "shop", then I assume that store will be ok.

I think the most telling part of this whole thing is, if you look at the bunker's facebook page...people are more interested in getting the Bunker's terrain given to them, or auctioned off then really caring about the employees or even the community.

I am all for having a place to game, but GW doesn't "owe" us this. It's obvious that the patrons of the Bunker weren't buying enough to keep the place open...now it closes. That's life. If you like your local GW, for god's sake, buy stuff there to support it. Otherwise when it closes, it's not GW's or Thom Kirby's fault..it's yours.

So you think killing off gaming tables in stores will make it all better?

Ravenous... no one is advocating the removal of the gaming tables. The gaming tables are great, but they are not revenue earners. If the tables aren't generating enough interest in walk-in traffic to increase cash flow, then the operational paradigm of the store has to change... and it is. The Glendale store has 4 tables. 1 display, 1 painting, and 2 gaming. It has one manager. It is a lean operation and is busiest on the weekends. This is normal for most hobby themed businesses. GW is a business. Their main interest is making a profit. If you believe downsizing is a bad idea then do something proactve. Write the CEO and the BOD. Start a petition campaign. I'm sure the manager is happy the store is downsizing instead of closing completely.
Cheers.

almostreal wrote:
I am all for having a place to game, but GW doesn't "owe" us this. It's obvious that the patrons of the Bunker weren't buying enough to keep the place open...now it closes. That's life. If you like your local GW, for god's sake, buy stuff there to support it. Otherwise when it closes, it's not GW's or Thom Kirby's fault..it's yours.

It's the fault of the customer? Might not some of the fault lie with the company that continually raises prices 3% year after year, even as their player base is shrinking further and further?

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

nickthewise wrote:

 azgrim wrote:
If im understaning this right ,there will be alot of displaced bunker regulars ,but where will you all go?

There's a store called Mercenary Market about 10 miles down the freeway which should benefit from the Bunker losing its gaming space. Otherwise game stores (with dedicated space) in O.C. are rather limited. The Realm is great, but would be quite a drive for most Bunker regulars.

Thanks for the shout out Nick. We (The Realm) are in Brea, just off the 57 by the Brea Mall. Been around almost 10 years, and just moved to a larger space in the same shopping mall. We have 4 large gaming tables and terrain, and smaller tables for painting / building, board and card games. But we can drop boards down on those tables to accomodate more wargaming.

We run a tournamnet every 1st Saturday, and carry pretty much GW's full line of product minus a chunk of LOTR stuff.

Thursdays players gather all day from noon to close (usually between 11pm and Midnight) to play minature games which may include some Flames of War or Warmachine, but there is plenty of GW games going on.

Our tables are always open for use unless we have large events that need the tables.

Ok that's enough salesmanship for one post. But don't hesitate to contact us about events or using the tables. (See Sig below post)

I know the bunkers dont make money, they never were meant too, it was the recruiter stores that made the cash, but with the switch to the one man stores and the rumblings they are getting rid of tables all together it raises some serious questions about GWs knowledge and ability to run a gaming store. If you make a destination store (which all the one man stores are) then you have to keep your regulars and make them want to spend money.

Most people will say that they would never go to a GW if it wasnt for the tables or the gaming because the staff are just brutal and impossible to deal with. The point is GW is doing nothing to improve its image with people that want to give them money. Understand that I love this game and Ive been doing it for 20 years, so when I watch a gaming community shrink steadily with all those leaving saying "GW screwed me" and the like, then it means you have to look at GWs ability to maintain a positive community. Happy/blissfully ignorant gamers spend money, the problem is GW isnt doing anything on the happy side of that, it looks more like they are just trying to swindle you in the night.

A local store here just had the manager move on to bigger and better things and the guy they brought in was a casual gamer, he was pretty laid back and quickly understood that there is little point being a chud to his customers. People were happy, so the store started making a lot more money, it gained 14% growth in 3 months. Having said that, the store was still in the red (zero foot traffic area) so GW upper management hounded the manager with constant visits and ran him through days of their training regimes to the point where he quit because it wasnt worth the crap. GW then put one of those zealous sales-drones in whose first action was to kick out 5 of the 15 regulars, and since then the place has been a ghost town.

Point is you can make a large profit off a gaming community, but making them struggle to use your product and alienating them isnt the way to go about it.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
My experience is that "kids" tend to be mostly clueless when navigating the internet. Most of them have grown up with web 2.0 as opposed to the real internet and have little clue at how to find things which don't have an App attached to them. The most skilled tend to be those who were coming of age during the late 1990s and early 2000s (I guess that would put them in their late 20s and early 30s now). Back then, they still had to actually know how to structure a Boolean search in order to find thing and were capable of actually deciphering a URL.

Agreed. Back in my day, we had to type bbc code tags manually uphill both ways! We didn't have these fancy FaceSpaces or MyBooks to do the job for us. Hrumpf...

Realmgames wrote:

nickthewise wrote:

 azgrim wrote:
If im understaning this right ,there will be alot of displaced bunker regulars ,but where will you all go?

There's a store called Mercenary Market about 10 miles down the freeway which should benefit from the Bunker losing its gaming space. Otherwise game stores (with dedicated space) in O.C. are rather limited. The Realm is great, but would be quite a drive for most Bunker regulars.

Thanks for the shout out Nick. We (The Realm) are in Brea, just off the 57 by the Brea Mall. Been around almost 10 years, and just moved to a larger space in the same shopping mall. We have 4 large gaming tables and terrain, and smaller tables for painting / building, board and card games. But we can drop boards down on those tables to accomodate more wargaming.

We run a tournamnet every 1st Saturday, and carry pretty much GW's full line of product minus a chunk of LOTR stuff.

Thursdays players gather all day from noon to close (usually between 11pm and Midnight) to play minature games which may include some Flames of War or Warmachine, but there is plenty of GW games going on.

Our tables are always open for use unless we have large events that need the tables.

Ok that's enough salesmanship for one post. But don't hesitate to contact us about events or using the tables. (See Sig below post)

I'll attest to this. Great people there, good hours, and if they don't have it they can order it for you.

I'm sad to see the Bunker go, but honestly, most of the people I've talked to avoided it like the plague... what concerns us isn't the loss of the store, but what that implies for us in the future for areas to game.

I honestly, truly want to ask some of the GW staff who hold onto the "Beer and pretzel" mentality, and claim that they're a model company, not a game company. Without malice or ill intent, I want to ask them what their sales would look like without 40k or Fantasy to give games to their models? Because honestly, a good portion of the fantasy models aren't even all that generic to use in other games, and 40k (save the IG) are even more so.

Here's another good point; GW prices obviously include the maintenence of their stores and employees, they've always said that we pay for the convenience and knowledge that their hobby centers provide, so if they have no knowledge you need or point of going then what exactly are we paying for? The mere privliege of having product that is at a higher cost? Why bother with the stores then? And why are they adding more?

Essentially GW are taking away the ability to use their product from people and telling them to do more work if they wish to do so. Thats not a winning business model, especially in this day and age of instant gratification.

And entitlement Ravenous D. Age of Instant Gratification and Entitlement......

Can't say I'm surprised, or sad. Quality of the store went WAY down after they fired/transferred/whatever most of the staff and replaced with utterly clueless ones.

 Ravenous D wrote:

almostreal wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Tresdedos wrote:
. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize.

For now....

If the first thing Tres says that he does when he goes to this GW is "shop", then I assume that store will be ok.

I think the most telling part of this whole thing is, if you look at the bunker's facebook page...people are more interested in getting the Bunker's terrain given to them, or auctioned off then really caring about the employees or even the community.

I am all for having a place to game, but GW doesn't "owe" us this. It's obvious that the patrons of the Bunker weren't buying enough to keep the place open...now it closes. That's life. If you like your local GW, for god's sake, buy stuff there to support it. Otherwise when it closes, it's not GW's or Thom Kirby's fault..it's yours.

So you think killing off gaming tables in stores will make it all better?

I do think that actually. If GW closing all of it's unprofitable stores means that it can operate at a sufficient margin to maybe not raise prices again this year it'd be great.

The only thing I really have to say is that this sucks and if you like your local GW and want them to stay in business, don't order something online and save $30, buy it from their store. If you don't support the store (in this case the bunker) it's nobody's fault but yours if they can't pay rent and their employees and have to close shop.

almostreal wrote:
If GW closing all of it's unprofitable stores means that it can operate at a sufficient margin to maybe not raise prices again this year it'd be great.

Got some bad news for you. Even if they did operate at a sufficient margin, they'd still raise prices. Their price structure is not representative of their production costs.

almostreal wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

almostreal wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Tresdedos wrote:
. I can drop by, have a coffee, shop, paint and socialize.

For now....

If the first thing Tres says that he does when he goes to this GW is "shop", then I assume that store will be ok.

I think the most telling part of this whole thing is, if you look at the bunker's facebook page...people are more interested in getting the Bunker's terrain given to them, or auctioned off then really caring about the employees or even the community.

I am all for having a place to game, but GW doesn't "owe" us this. It's obvious that the patrons of the Bunker weren't buying enough to keep the place open...now it closes. That's life. If you like your local GW, for god's sake, buy stuff there to support it. Otherwise when it closes, it's not GW's or Thom Kirby's fault..it's yours.

So you think killing off gaming tables in stores will make it all better?

I do think that actually. If GW closing all of it's unprofitable stores means that it can operate at a sufficient margin to maybe not raise prices again this year it'd be great.

Yea. Right.

almostreal wrote:
The only thing I really have to say is that this sucks and if you like your local GW and want them to stay in business, don't order something online and save $30, buy it from their store. If you don't support the store (in this case the bunker) it's nobody's fault but yours if they can't pay rent and their employees and have to close shop.

Here's the thing though, they are killing interest in their own product when they kill off the tables in their stores.
I am NOT going to support my local store unless I can actually game there. There is a bunker an hour away from me and when I used to go there I paid full price. Then they changed managers there and opened a new store only 20 minutes away with a single 8x4 broken into two 4x4s or a 6x4 and a 2x4. It sucks. There is no room to play and even if you find an opponent you are limited in the size of your games. I tried going there a few times but I didn't enjoy it so I stopped going and started buying off the internet.

Gaming tables do more fore a FLGS than it does for a GW stores.

FLGS gaming tables bring in revenue from Friday night magic

FLGS gaming tables bring in revenue from MTG draft nights, and it's usually on a weekday when things are slow.

FLGS gaming tables bring in revenue from small mini tournaments of World of Warcraft or Yugio.

FLGS gaming tables bring in revenue from 40k tournaments.

FLGS sell a larger line of product and thus have more stock that they move in comparison to a GW store.

FLGS continue suck money out of players that start to get bored of/burn out on GW games because when they hit that stage other games like warmahordes and mallifux catch their eye.

Between collectible card games, tournaments, non GW product, and escalation leagues a FLGS can squeeze far more profit out if it's gaming tables than a GW battle bunker can. As much as I love the LA battle bunker I have to agree with GW that the business model of a large GW battle bunker is far less competitive than that of a large FLGS such as Game Empire or Thou Shalt Game. The books were probably in the red for a long period of time. Once it turns into a hobby center most of the customers will leave to play at a FLGS, most of the store's income will go away, but most of the store's overhead will also go away which should put the hobby center into the black. As long as it can run just a tiny bit in the black GW will be fine because all the lost customers who are now going to FLGS are still purchasing GW products.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Haven't you all heard GW's new motto "give me your money and get the hell out".

It's called Total Customer feth 9000. It's a business model

To those people pointing out that Bunkers probably aren't making a profit: Sometimes simply having a public storefront will bring in revenues. The shops in Times Square, NYC such as Levi's, Forever 21, the Disney store, etc... they lose money every single quarter. But, it's advertising for their company because they're in a public, frequented place. It would do Gamesworkshop a service to set up their big Bunker stores closer to downtown type areas, and accept a loss in order to advertise and generate interest.

A lot of shopping is done online nowdays, and the same kid begging his parents for a Space Marine starter set because he visited a GW Bunker, could just as easily get on the computer and show his parents the GW website so they can buy him something. One of the problems with wargaming is that it's not a huge community, and for the most part you're either in, or out. And if you're in, you tell your friends about the game, and some of your friends are probably into the game too. But for those people 'out' of the game, they've probably never heard of wargaming other than WWII type wargames from the 80's and 90s.

Having a public storefront that attracts traffic does several things for a company. It costs some money, it may operate at a loss, but it will also generate traffic within the store, and word-of-mouth advertising from those who visit. A store with 10 tables and some people playing generates a lot more interest than a store with 2 tables and feels more like a general hobby shop.

Here's my own personal experience: About 10 years ago I was in Pittsburgh and visited a gaming/comic store and saw WH40K stuff for the first time. I was intrigued and asked the staff about the game. They acted disinterested, and one of the customers present was a 40K player who very firmly told me that I wouldn't be allowed to play in the store without a 'fully painted, tabletop level army, plus a codex'. I didn't know what any of it meant, and I left the store feeling like 40K was probably some sort of elitist game that operates out of small, hole-in-the-wall comic book stores. I wasn't going to drive 50 miles to Pittsburgh to play, that was for sure!

Years later (this past summer), I found a comic/gaming store in Morgantown, WV where I was welcomed very warmly and people took the time to show me the game and talk to me. I've -never- had a shortage of people to ask advice of at this store, and the staff are always very kind. Had I experienced this sort of thing in Pittsburgh, I would have gladly driven the 50 miles to play once or twice per month and their store would have generated revenue from me. And, probably from my friends too because I'd have told them about it.

In the end, it's important to have a 'presence' out there, welcoming in new players, having your PRODUCT proudly on display and available for people to try out. The game is much more impressive when you see armies arranged on tables and players talking/joking and clearly having fun while they play.

Two examples from UK, showing this is a global GW strategy:

Bigman over at Warseer wrote:My local uk store has now told people that beginner weekends are only available to people who buy the rules. While commercially viable in that more rule books and DV /IoB will be sold, that decision actually drives away casual walk ins from trying.
(...)
Another store in London, which has a thriving veterans scene and a little battle bunker with gaming tables, has just changed the set up for gaming night and has essentially kicked out all the established hobbyists (which used to frequent the shop alot) in favour of running "beginners evenings", with the clear indication that "we are a hobby centre, not a gaming club"

I mean seriously...that store has just pissed of a dozen gamers who spend plenty of money, all for new gamers. And there isn't even a problem in the managers eyes.

Does GW follow an ambitious business plan, that they have to lose a minimum of 10% of their customers per year?

They need to focus on providing good support to FLGS and stop trying to be direct salesmen in the US imho.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@RiTides

Take a breath buddy. I was referring to Pretre's comment about renting the same spot and opening a FLGS. As I'd heard that's what the previous Baltimore Bunker manager did and the store is doing well. Could be wrong, I obviously don't live in the area

Dropzone Games is doing quite well, from appearances. It even seems to have drawn a lot of the regulars away from the bunker's new location down in Bowie, and away from another local store about ten minutes from it. Not being pressured to buy glue with every model purchase, not getting sold expensive models that are gak on the tabletop, and being able to play on flat boards with functional terrain rather than Realm of Battle boards all really helped it muscle the Bowie Bunker out, too.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Two examples from UK, showing this is a global GW strategy:

Bigman over at Warseer wrote:My local uk store has now told people that beginner weekends are only available to people who buy the rules. While commercially viable in that more rule books and DV /IoB will be sold, that decision actually drives away casual walk ins from trying.
(...)
Another store in London, which has a thriving veterans scene and a little battle bunker with gaming tables, has just changed the set up for gaming night and has essentially kicked out all the established hobbyists (which used to frequent the shop alot) in favour of running "beginners evenings", with the clear indication that "we are a hobby centre, not a gaming club"

I mean seriously...that store has just pissed of a dozen gamers who spend plenty of money, all for new gamers. And there isn't even a problem in the managers eyes.

Does GW follow an ambitious business plan, that they have to lose a minimum of 10% of their customers per year?

To your quoted quote, it is kinda understandable as veterans who sit at the GW not buying anything really does nothing for the company. it is basically loitering and brings in no revenue. GW isn't a day care center. Not to say the rest of there business model is any good.

i wonder how a business based solely as a place to play say with a monthly fee or so would do.

You make it sound like vending machines for blisters in a mall would be the ideal way to spread the wargaming hobby. Indeed veterans gaming in a store are what I consider ideal to bring new people into the hobby and sustain the local wargaming scene. It is not the aggressive salesman showing boxes, that convinces new players that tabletop games are fun. It's seeing people having fun. That's what GW stores should do: Recruiting new customers, serving the local community and helping people start the hobby.

Oh absolutely i don't deny that's what GW should do but as GW is now im stating i understand why a manager that has to sit there and tend to 10-20 people that don't want to buy anything would want them out.

quite frankly i believe gw should just pull out of the US and heavily support more FLGs with tourney packages and painting events to get people in the door. with maybe one or 2 big bunker style flagship stores as other suggested. but it looks like the current marketing geniuses know something that we don't. not to say im a marking genius i just though it was common sense.

 Ravenous D wrote:
I know the bunkers dont make money, they never were meant too, it was the recruiter stores that made the cash, but with the switch to the one man stores and the rumblings they are getting rid of tables all together it raises some serious questions about GWs knowledge and ability to run a gaming store. If you make a destination store (which all the one man stores are) then you have to keep your regulars and make them want to spend money.

Most people will say that they would never go to a GW if it wasnt for the tables or the gaming because the staff are just brutal and impossible to deal with. The point is GW is doing nothing to improve its image with people that want to give them money. Understand that I love this game and Ive been doing it for 20 years, so when I watch a gaming community shrink steadily with all those leaving saying "GW screwed me" and the like, then it means you have to look at GWs ability to maintain a positive community. Happy/blissfully ignorant gamers spend money, the problem is GW isnt doing anything on the happy side of that, it looks more like they are just trying to swindle you in the night.

A local store here just had the manager move on to bigger and better things and the guy they brought in was a casual gamer, he was pretty laid back and quickly understood that there is little point being a chud to his customers. People were happy, so the store started making a lot more money, it gained 14% growth in 3 months. Having said that, the store was still in the red (zero foot traffic area) so GW upper management hounded the manager with constant visits and ran him through days of their training regimes to the point where he quit because it wasnt worth the crap. GW then put one of those zealous sales-drones in whose first action was to kick out 5 of the 15 regulars, and since then the place has been a ghost town.

Point is you can make a large profit off a gaming community, but making them struggle to use your product and alienating them isnt the way to go about it.

Rav... I read GW's investor relations website today. It does seems that their goals, practices and mission statement are out of whack. Their 1/4erly report however shows nice healthy numbers. They're doing something right. They'll keep raising prices and hobbyists who love WH40K and their other products will continue to pony up the cash. I'll probably examine my spending habits and start buying PO NIB kits on ebay. Cheers, Tresdedos

 Iron Dragon wrote:
Here's my own personal experience: About 10 years ago I was in Pittsburgh and visited a gaming/comic store and saw WH40K stuff for the first time. I was intrigued and asked the staff about the game. They acted disinterested, and one of the customers present was a 40K player who very firmly told me that I wouldn't be allowed to play in the store without a 'fully painted, tabletop level army, plus a codex'. I didn't know what any of it meant, and I left the store feeling like 40K was probably some sort of elitist game that operates out of small, hole-in-the-wall comic book stores. I wasn't going to drive 50 miles to Pittsburgh to play, that was for sure!

Years later (this past summer), I found a comic/gaming store in Morgantown, WV where I was welcomed very warmly and people took the time to show me the game and talk to me. I've -never- had a shortage of people to ask advice of at this store, and the staff are always very kind. Had I experienced this sort of thing in Pittsburgh, I would have gladly driven the 50 miles to play once or twice per month and their store would have generated revenue from me. And, probably from my friends too because I'd have told them about it.

Pittsburgh? What store was that?

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
It is inline with what they have been doing and their stated goals in their financial reports. Larger areas of retail space which aren't used to actually sell product are very expensive - even in rough neighborhoods or strip mall locations. Seattle has rather more expensive rent than a lot of other locations which have already been transitioned to smaller, cheaper locations - so there really isn't any reason to think that they would not be as well.

That's very disheartening to hear. I just got started back in the hobby after learning that this place, (where I had first learned to play back in high school) was still around, and I was so looking forward to spending a lot of time there in the future once I finished everything.

Now I'm just... really....sad....

Hey my So-Cal pals I hear you need a place to game cause the GW bunker has abandoned you....well check out mercenary market located nearby. They have about 10 ....yes 10 gaming tables, over 80 pieces of modular terrain (a kind guy named Colin donated a lot of it), and are open everyday during the week and till midnight friday and saturday. not a pressure sales environment.

Mercenary Market
2263 Fairview Rd. Ste P
Costa Mesa, CA 92627

Anyways check it out with your buds.

sucks about the bunker but incompetent staff/managers = dead sales = down sized

@ Tresdedos

Yeah but sales volume is down, cranking prices on a dying product is like setting fire to a gas truck crashing into a dynamite factory.

 btr75 wrote:
They need to focus on providing good support to FLGS and stop trying to be direct salesmen in the US imho.

Funny you mention that, few years ago GW actually wanted to start a program for retailers that if they have demo tables and paint stations and follow GWs policies that they get a greater discount on their orders, it was an effort to combat internet discounters. They wanted to drop the retailer discount to 35% (currently its 45%) and increase it for each of GWs rules up to 45%, the plan failed horribly after they realized how tremendously illegal it was. They managed to pull off that embargo with austrailia some how though...

They need to find a way to lower overhead prices and keep costs down.

GW is sinking all their money into brick and mortar stores and raising prices in return.

THANKS GW, LESS FOR MORE!

 Ravenous D wrote:
@ Tresdedos Yeah but sales volume is down, cranking prices on a dying product is like setting fire to a gas truck crashing into a dynamite factory.

 btr75 wrote:
They need to focus on providing good support to FLGS and stop trying to be direct salesmen in the US imho.

Funny you mention that, few years ago GW actually wanted to start a program for retailers that if they have demo tables and paint stations and follow GWs policies that they get a greater discount on their orders, it was an effort to combat internet discounters. They wanted to drop the retailer discount to 35% (currently its 45%) and increase it for each of GWs rules up to 45%, the plan failed horribly after they realized how tremendously illegal it was. They managed to pull off that embargo with austrailia some how though...

GW gave the FLGS 'The Last Grenadier' a hard time recently. August 2012 TLG had a 20% off sale on any kits in the store (not just GW). My sons and I went to that sale and picked up an Ork Battlewagon, Ork Boyz and some Gretchin. I went in recently with my sons and bought a Raider kit. I asked when they were going to another sale that included GW products. The manager told me that GW raised hell with him over selling their products at sale prices. GW considers the practice of having sales as insulting and will not supply independents that place GW on sale or sell them at a discount. Sounds vaguely fishy and illegal to me. My take is, once I buy your product to sell in my shop, I'll price it any way I damn well please that makes me a profit and gets product off the shelves. They tried that with me I'd tell them to hang their merchandise in their backside and see how well it sells there. North America accounted for 17.9m£ in sales for the second 1/2 of 2012. I wonder what an organised 6 month boycott of GW's 80+ US stores would do to their business plan...

Considering how many places, even in SoCal, sell GW at a discount, it's possible the FLGS owner was blowing a little smoke somewhere in order to cover his ...smoke hole.

I'm going to write to Microsoft and demand that they have stores in prime real estate city centres that consist entirely of XBoxes and widescreen TVs. The regulars will bully away newcomers, and will buy feth all new games, let alone consoles.

Oh and they'll need heating, lighting, electricity, health and safety regulations etc. Failure to produce such money-draining services will be interprited as a huge "eff you" to the fans.

</sarcasm>

I don't know why GW would have such stores anyway. One table for newcomers is better than 5 tables for regulars. FLGS (apparently these exist, though there don't seem to be any near me...I do live down the road from Warhammer World, though you can't really battle strangers there) are more suited for this "business model".

 BryllCream wrote:
I'm going to write to Microsoft and demand that they have stores in prime real estate city centres that consist entirely of XBoxes and widescreen TVs. The regulars will bully away newcomers, and will buy feth all new games, let alone consoles.

Oh and they'll need heating, lighting, electricity, health and safety regulations etc. Failure to produce such money-draining services will be interprited as a huge "eff you" to the fans.

</sarcasm>

I don't know why GW would have such stores anyway. One table for newcomers is better than 5 tables for regulars. FLGS (apparently these exist, though there don't seem to be any near me...I do live down the road from Warhammer World, though you can't really battle strangers there) are more suited for this "business model".

Tables for veterans to play are AS important (not more, just as) as tables for new people. As much as GW try to say they are selling 'models' and 'toys' to kids they are selling a GAME. To successfully sell a game you need people to PLAY IT. Many people can't simply set up a table in their kitchen/living room/garage and, more importantly people aren't going to be able to play against anyone but their friends even if they do. Having a place for people to play in store means people who aren't simply passing by have a reason to come in, and once they are in it is much easier to sell them things. As well people need opponents to play against or they will immediately loose interest in the game. And besides, the microsoft analogy is flawed in that they are not providing the games - or in this case models - we are bringing those ourselves, what they are providing is a space for people to use the gaames (models) they have bought because tabletop wargaming is not something you can do along in your own home.
I think what you always seem to miss in these arguments is that nobody here is saying they HAVE to provide all this stuff because we are entitled to it, just that if they had any sense they would know that they SHOULD do so to keep people people interested in their product.

(Sorry if anything there didn't make sense/was rambling, it's 1am here)

The best thing about this is that I no longer need to rely on suffering thru the trolls who go to the LA Battle Bunker to get a game in. I've now got that "push out of the nest" to just go out and build my own table with my buddies. So i say thank you GW, I no longer have to be dissapointed about being surrounded by the greasy, loud & sickly group of humanity that infested that place, you know the "know it alls" the "NO! NO! NO! *throw tantrums*". I say let the BO and Crop Dusted Farts settle... RIP LA Bunker you'll be missed... but not your regulars... they need a bath.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Tables for veterans to play are AS important (not more, just as) as tables for new people. As much as GW try to say they are selling 'models' and 'toys' to kids they are selling a GAME. To successfully sell a game you need people to PLAY IT. Many people can't simply set up a table in their kitchen/living room/garage and, more importantly people aren't going to be able to play against anyone but their friends even if they do. Having a place for people to play in store means people who aren't simply passing by have a reason to come in, and once they are in it is much easier to sell them things. As well people need opponents to play against or they will immediately loose interest in the game. And besides, the microsoft analogy is flawed in that they are not providing the games - or in this case models - we are bringing those ourselves, what they are providing is a space for people to use the gaames (models) they have bought because tabletop wargaming is not something you can do along in your own home.
I think what you always seem to miss in these arguments is that nobody here is saying they HAVE to provide all this stuff because we are entitled to it, just that if they had any sense they would know that they SHOULD do so to keep people people interested in their product.

(Sorry if anything there didn't make sense/was rambling, it's 1am here)

Problem is, having a large gaming space in prime real estate is expensive. Unless you want to charge people for it, which would be rather silly, it does look as though it was losing money.

Natfka wrote:Battle Bunkers: A Sad Farewell

While it is indeed a smarter thing to do from a business perspective, it is sad to see battle bunkers go away. Today I was told that its not just the LA and Chicago Battle Bunkers going away, its all Battle Bunkers in general. Here is the latest. Please remember that this is still a rumor and nothing formal has been announced.

via the Faeit 212 inbox (source can't be named) wrote:ALL battle bunkers will be phased out over time. The issue isn't the sinking ship of a company, but how much it costs, against how much it earns. Bad business ethic. You wouldn't pay $1000 to earn a $100, it's just stupid. So they are phasing them all out in order to have stores that suit the numbers of customers. This probably means that although the bunkers will close, they'll open stores closer to the larger concentrations of customers. So if you've been asked for an area code recently....or something similar, watch out for a new store opening soon!!

GW finally learned that aquisition of new customers costs money ... that is better spend on dividends

 BryllCream wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

Tables for veterans to play are AS important (not more, just as) as tables for new people. As much as GW try to say they are selling 'models' and 'toys' to kids they are selling a GAME. To successfully sell a game you need people to PLAY IT. Many people can't simply set up a table in their kitchen/living room/garage and, more importantly people aren't going to be able to play against anyone but their friends even if they do. Having a place for people to play in store means people who aren't simply passing by have a reason to come in, and once they are in it is much easier to sell them things. As well people need opponents to play against or they will immediately loose interest in the game. And besides, the microsoft analogy is flawed in that they are not providing the games - or in this case models - we are bringing those ourselves, what they are providing is a space for people to use the gaames (models) they have bought because tabletop wargaming is not something you can do along in your own home.
I think what you always seem to miss in these arguments is that nobody here is saying they HAVE to provide all this stuff because we are entitled to it, just that if they had any sense they would know that they SHOULD do so to keep people people interested in their product.

(Sorry if anything there didn't make sense/was rambling, it's 1am here)

Problem is, having a large gaming space in prime real estate is expensive. Unless you want to charge people for it, which would be rather silly, it does look as though it was losing money.

Yes but no one says they have to have prime real estate, stick a one man store somewhere you'll get lots of foot traffic them put the battle bunker somewhere out of the way(cheap) so you can then send the people there once they have become interested at the one man store to keep them interested.

The problem with that jono, is the sheer distance that the LA/Orange County area covers. It's common to have a 30-45 minute commute to a "close" destination, which is my average drive time to the current bunker location. Longer drives arent uncommon, but certainly not welcomed. It's too big an area for that store model to be very viable for most people here.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Natfka wrote:Battle Bunkers: A Sad Farewell

While it is indeed a smarter thing to do from a business perspective, it is sad to see battle bunkers go away. Today I was told that its not just the LA and Chicago Battle Bunkers going away, its all Battle Bunkers in general. Here is the latest. Please remember that this is still a rumor and nothing formal has been announced.

via the Faeit 212 inbox (source can't be named) wrote:ALL battle bunkers will be phased out over time. The issue isn't the sinking ship of a company, but how much it costs, against how much it earns. Bad business ethic. You wouldn't pay $1000 to earn a $100, it's just stupid. So they are phasing them all out in order to have stores that suit the numbers of customers. This probably means that although the bunkers will close, they'll open stores closer to the larger concentrations of customers. So if you've been asked for an area code recently....or something similar, watch out for a new store opening soon!!

GW finally learned that aquisition of new customers costs money ... that is better spend on dividends

Nah GW just spends all of its money on flying all of its managers to memphis and put them in a hotel for a few days every 3 months. I know for a fact they dont stay in dumpy hotels, so unless there is a massive discount you're looking at $500+ a person depending on where they are coming from. If there is 50 people thats $100,000/year. Even if its $50,000, thats money all the people that play this game are paying for whether you go to their stores or not, and how with no gaming tables on the horizon, why in the blue hell am I paying for a bunch of guys to sit around painting models and playing word games to best sell stuff to people?

 Ravenous D wrote:

Nah GW just spends all of its money on flying all of its managers to memphis and put them in a hotel for a few days every 3 months. I know for a fact they dont stay in dumpy hotels, so unless there is a massive discount you're looking at $500+ a person depending on where they are coming from. If there is 50 people thats $100,000/year. Even if its $50,000, thats money all the people that play this game are paying for whether you go to their stores or not, and how with no gaming tables on the horizon, why in the blue hell am I paying for a bunch of guys to sit around painting models and playing word games to best sell stuff to people?

Don't forget a generous health care package also. We don't care about the well being of other people, so why should they. How dare they get health care when the rest of people working in the world of retail don't.

 BryllCream wrote:
I'm going to write to Microsoft and demand that they have stores in prime real estate city centres that consist entirely of XBoxes and widescreen TVs. The regulars will bully away newcomers, and will buy feth all new games, let alone consoles..

This attitude of self-loathing among self-professed hobbyists of GW games is quite, quite strange. Why do you have such low expectations of your peers?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
This attitude of self-loathing among self-professed hobbyists of GW games is quite, quite strange. Why do you have such low expectations of your peers?

Experience? Yes, it's anecdotal but trends happen and people notice them.

The "regulars" seldom buy stuff because they usually have all the stuff they need. Some of those regulars make token purchases but tend to buy from discounters where possible (I'm guilty of this one). With few exceptions, groups of regulars tend to be insular and cold to new people who want to sit with them, chat, or whatever. Fortunately, you tend to find this attitude more in roleplayers than miniature gamers. I know stores who won't ever turn over table space to a RPG group because they never buy anything and they take up space that could be used by people who do.

I hang out at the Seattle Battle Bunker because the management and staff make a deliberate effort to maintain an open, social environment in the store and keep cliquish behavior to a minimum.

silent25 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

Nah GW just spends all of its money on flying all of its managers to memphis and put them in a hotel for a few days every 3 months. I know for a fact they dont stay in dumpy hotels, so unless there is a massive discount you're looking at $500+ a person depending on where they are coming from. If there is 50 people thats $100,000/year. Even if its $50,000, thats money all the people that play this game are paying for whether you go to their stores or not, and how with no gaming tables on the horizon, why in the blue hell am I paying for a bunch of guys to sit around painting models and playing word games to best sell stuff to people?

Don't forget a generous health care package also. We don't care about the well being of other people, so why should they. How dare they get health care when the rest of people working in the world of retail don't.

Dont be daft.

There is a major difference between health care and flying its managers from every corner of north america for a business meeting to run stores that are driving towards no longer welcome gaming

@Ravenous D

We get it dude, you hate GW. They probably did unwholesome things to a pet of yours.

GW basic stores are not gaming stores. They are for recruiting and entry level. As such, a single table is really all they should have along with a paint station.

Let's face it, a fair amount of the people in our hobby who would hang out at a GW store aren't people you'd generally want putting a face on the hobby. Enough space to run a demo game or a mega battle and the abiilty to paint is all they need. This keeps people from just lounging around the shop and generally not making purchases and allows the employee/manager to focus on the business.

And you really don't need a GW store for networking anymore. The internet is your friend.

Seriously? You white knights are the worst. I swear I could sell you a rock if I told you it was magical.

What part about having a "warhammer only" store with no foot traffic sounds like a good business idea to you?

Ah, name calling. I'm not a "white knight". GW makes mistakes and does handle things poorly from time to time. There just happen to be a few differences in how I handle it:

1. I act like an adult. I don't act like a entitled child. I accept that if I choose to keep playing that my hobby has a price. If it ever reaches a point where that price exceeds my enjoyment I will no longer engage in that hobby. I will also no longer whine online about said price. Clean break and all that.

2. I view it from a personal experience and business perspective. Such as the fact that most of the people that spend a significant amount of time in GW stores are actually bad for business. They tend to be socially awkward, rarely purchase, and have a tendency to complain about GW. Basically it's not a good environment for sales.

3. I don't expect GW to be a place to play. I used to live 15 minutes from the Bunker in LA. I preferred not to play there. I'd play at other people's homes or at tournaments or local FLGS's. Why? See point number two. If I wanted a game I used social media and local gaming groups to find a game and set a location.

As a teenager I played at home with my friends. On folding tables or on the floor. As a college student I played at my house, friends dorms, or at a FLGS when my place got to small. As an adult I play at my house, my friends houses, the FLGS, or at tournaments.

Foot traffic in a strip-site is generated by visual appeal of the outside of the store and what's in the windows. People inside playing would help if the type of people playing were similar to the person looking inside. A young adult male isn't going to come into a store if it's looks interesting on the outside if he looks inside and sees a bunch of 13 year olds playing. A parent isn't going to walk in with her child if she see young adult males dressed ....differently... than her comfortable culture. You can see where I'm going with this I hope.

Closing the bunkers is probably a good call. The community isn't what it was back in the 90's. People don't need a specific location to meet new gamers anymore. It's now just a money drain.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ah, name calling. I'm not a "white knight". GW makes mistakes and does handle things poorly from time to time. There just happen to be a few differences in how I handle it:

1. I act like an adult. I don't act like a entitled child. I accept that if I choose to keep playing that my hobby has a price. If it ever reaches a point where that price exceeds my enjoyment I will no longer engage in that hobby. I will also no longer whine online about said price. Clean break and all that.

2. I view it from a personal experience and business perspective. Such as the fact that most of the people that spend a significant amount of time in GW stores are actually bad for business. They tend to be socially awkward, rarely purchase, and have a tendency to complain about GW. Basically it's not a good environment for sales.

3. I don't expect GW to be a place to play. I used to live 15 minutes from the Bunker in LA. I preferred not to play there. I'd play at other people's homes or at tournaments or local FLGS's. Why? See point number two. If I wanted a game I used social media and local gaming groups to find a game and set a location.

As a teenager I played at home with my friends. On folding tables or on the floor. As a college student I played at my house, friends dorms, or at a FLGS when my place got to small. As an adult I play at my house, my friends houses, the FLGS, or at tournaments.

Foot traffic in a strip-site is generated by visual appeal of the outside of the store and what's in the windows. People inside playing would help if the type of people playing were similar to the person looking inside. A young adult male isn't going to come into a store if it's looks interesting on the outside if he looks inside and sees a bunch of 13 year olds playing. A parent isn't going to walk in with her child if she see young adult males dressed ....differently... than her comfortable culture. You can see where I'm going with this I hope.

Closing the bunkers is probably a good call. The community isn't what it was back in the 90's. People don't need a specific location to meet new gamers anymore. It's now just a money drain.

You are basing that entire business perspective in your won personal experience and saying it like it is a fact or the norm... It isn't, I've been playing wargames since 96 and almost all of my games have been played in either a FLGS or a Tournament venue.

My entire gaming group of over 40 people are like that as well. We never play at each other's houses, I dare say that if we didn't have a FLGS to play, then very few of us would continue in the hobby to this day (if we would had even started in the first place).

The business perspective isn't in my own personal experience. It's in working for GW and several other retailers as a store manager over a decade and a half before leaving retail for good two years ago. Dealing with regional numbers and being responsible for driving sales. It's seeing it in action and rolled out across national chains.

GW stores in the US, outside of bunkers, have never provided the gaming space that most FLGS's will try to provide. Originally this was part of their effort to work with independents. They sent developing gamers to the FLGS. The FLGS is suppose to be the gaming location. For touranments and general gaming. I'm pretty sure I noted that a FLGS is still a location to play and that GW's aren't FLGS's.

A local FLGS owner can charge for gaming tables or put rules into effect that would have people screaming to the high heavens if GW did it. People feel more beholden and tend to purchase from a FLGS to use their tables since it's not a coporate monster. FLGS's can use those tables for multiple things to generate revenue where as a GW generates almost no revenue by having regulars hangout and play once in a while.

You can say it's personal experience but since we're talking about the US and a store that is local to where I used to live and dealing with a business model I'm incredibly familiar with through multiple avenues I'd have to disagree.

almostreal wrote:
Seems like a solid business move. If something isn't making money, you close it. The retail area of a bunker is no bigger then a one man store...but it has to support a huge gaming area. People playing games doesn't = them buying things.

GW stores aren't the only place to play or even buy their product, it looks like to me that GW is making some big and tough decisions to try to be/remain profitable.

I know the 20 pages following this will be "Yup, GW is dying...I told you that my venom would work...hate hate hate". Ultimately it's a company making decisions to be profitable, they are opening many more stores then they are closing/downsizing.

Flame away GW haters..lol

True enough. I've never been a fan of the way GW does business in many instances. Although I've only recently come back to playing GW games in the last 4 years or so, I've been playing their games and buying their products off and on since the late 80's. That being said, I and no one else I've heard from in the SoCal area knows of any increase in the number of GW stores now or in the near future. In fact, the overall number has decreased.

While this shrinking of the larger stores may in fact be a successful money saver on their part in the short term, it will cost them more then just walk in customers. It will also cost them the new younger demographic (teenagers) that saw the Bunker as a gaming place accessible and welcoming to them. And to say that they are not a good source of business is just plain wrong. While it was common knowledge that dealing with some of the youngest players was sometimes taxing the to employees, the kids parents dropped a lot of money in the store in order to fund their kids hobby and give them somewhere to play. Admitted;y though, I'm no expert on how well the GW store in question is doing, much less GW in general. Maybe my experience and perceptions are all based on anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me that overall, GW will lose more by downsizing these stores and the 'services' they provide than they will gain in short term money savings.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The one upside to no longer playing at a GW store is that I and others are no longer limited to using only GW figures. I honored that 'policy' when playing at the LA Battle Bunker, but always chaffed at it a bit. I really like their game systems and most of their figures, but having the freedom to mix and match and just plain use other companies figures in some cases is very liberating. Now I just have to find somewhere to play!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ah, name calling. I'm not a "white knight". GW makes mistakes and does handle things poorly from time to time. There just happen to be a few differences in how I handle it:

1. I act like an adult. I don't act like a entitled child. I accept that if I choose to keep playing that my hobby has a price. If it ever reaches a point where that price exceeds my enjoyment I will no longer engage in that hobby. I will also no longer whine online about said price. Clean break and all that.

2. I view it from a personal experience and business perspective. Such as the fact that most of the people that spend a significant amount of time in GW stores are actually bad for business. They tend to be socially awkward, rarely purchase, and have a tendency to complain about GW. Basically it's not a good environment for sales.

3. I don't expect GW to be a place to play. I used to live 15 minutes from the Bunker in LA. I preferred not to play there. I'd play at other people's homes or at tournaments or local FLGS's. Why? See point number two. If I wanted a game I used social media and local gaming groups to find a game and set a location.

As a teenager I played at home with my friends. On folding tables or on the floor. As a college student I played at my house, friends dorms, or at a FLGS when my place got to small. As an adult I play at my house, my friends houses, the FLGS, or at tournaments.

Foot traffic in a strip-site is generated by visual appeal of the outside of the store and what's in the windows. People inside playing would help if the type of people playing were similar to the person looking inside. A young adult male isn't going to come into a store if it's looks interesting on the outside if he looks inside and sees a bunch of 13 year olds playing. A parent isn't going to walk in with her child if she see young adult males dressed ....differently... than her comfortable culture. You can see where I'm going with this I hope.

Closing the bunkers is probably a good call. The community isn't what it was back in the 90's. People don't need a specific location to meet new gamers anymore. It's now just a money drain.

I think most if not all of your points, while fully entitled are off the mark to one degree or another.

1) You are right that some do indeed 'whine' about this or that, including the price of GW products, but that does not mean that no criticism is acceptable or warranted sometimes. Sometimes it takes more than simply not buying a companies product in order to be heard and for change to possibly happen.

2) Your assessment that the majority of people(guys) that frequent the Bunker are basically eye sores and hinder the likelihood that 'regular' people will want to enter is simply wrong. You're right there are of course always a few that are basically the least 'appealing' poster persons for promoting a 'cool' atmosphere, but I'd contend that the vast majority of those that frequent the Bunker look exactly like the guys that you'd find at the vast majority of sports bars on any Saturday or Sunday. The ONLY thing that makes them seem any 'cooler' is the fact that they are doing something (passive as it may be) that is far more popular and socially acceptable, namely watching sports and drinking beer while doing so. And of course there are more girls there, but most of them are no more appealing than the guys that dragged most of them there. The majority are overweight, past their prime guys that vary from slightly to very loud and or obnoxious. If it wasn't for the alcohol, you think most of them would be there? I think not. That's not a put down of sports bars or the people (including me) that frequent them. It's just an attempt at putting things in perspective.

3) Of course a GW store does not need to be a place to play nor should it be expected to be, and neither should any other gaming store for that matter. Those businesses do that though for the same reason the GW store did it. To promote the idea that the store in question was THE place to go to get your gaming products and improve/heighten your gaming experience. Developing a gaming 'community' built around your store only helps business in the vast majority of cases. The degree to which it does of course varies from store to store. The only real exception is when the co$t of setting aside that space begins to adversely impact their ability to make the kind of profit they want. The in-store gaming could be taking up too much space otherwise set aside for product display or maybe the group that games there has become a deterrence to new and repeat customers returning. That is up to the store to handle though.

Maybe the Bunkers problem was that it simply cost too much to rent the space. It's very possible, but I don't think it takes an accountant or business major to see that the total money they bring in in sales after the downsizing will be A LOT less and any growth in the future will be negligible. Maybe it's best for the company, but it certainly didn't do anything for the local gaming community.

My earlier, formative gaming experience was much the same as yours. As for you or anyone else already having a circle of fellow players to draw from now in your later years. Bully for you. That wasn't my situation being that I had been out of the hobby for a number of years and I guarantee it isn't the case for lots of other new players to the area or the hobby in general. A place like the Bunker has been a gathering place for people of a variety of GW gaming interests that for most people would not otherwise be available or possible. Again, if the change is good for GW, great for them. It may even be good for a number of the non-GW game stores and that is indeed very good too. They deserve as much or more support, assuming they're doing their job well. For the SoCal gaming community as a whole though, I fear it is at best a zero sum gain and at worst it is clearly a loss.

Am I 'mad' a GW? No. Disappointed? definitely.

 Breotan wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
This attitude of self-loathing among self-professed hobbyists of GW games is quite, quite strange. Why do you have such low expectations of your peers?

Experience? Yes, it's anecdotal but trends happen and people notice them.

The "regulars" seldom buy stuff because they usually have all the stuff they need. Some of those regulars make token purchases but tend to buy from discounters where possible (I'm guilty of this one). With few exceptions, groups of regulars tend to be insular and cold to new people who want to sit with them, chat, or whatever. Fortunately, you tend to find this attitude more in roleplayers than miniature gamers. I know stores who won't ever turn over table space to a RPG group because they never buy anything and they take up space that could be used by people who do.

I hang out at the Seattle Battle Bunker because the management and staff make a deliberate effort to maintain an open, social environment in the store and keep cliquish behavior to a minimum.

Yah, the Seattle Bunker is awesome. I hope that the new manager won't change the feel of the place.

On a side note, I do like how we both go to the Seattle Bunker, yet I don't think we have ever met each other.

Spartan67 wrote:
I think most if not all of your points, while fully entitled are off the mark to one degree or another.

1) You are right that some do indeed 'whine' about this or that, including the price of GW products, but that does not mean that no criticism is acceptable or warranted sometimes. Sometimes it takes more than simply not buying a companies product in order to be heard and for change to possibly happen.

2) Your assessment that the majority of people(guys) that frequent the Bunker are basically eye sores and hinder the likelihood that 'regular' people will want to enter is simply wrong. You're right there are of course always a few that are basically the least 'appealing' poster persons for promoting a 'cool' atmosphere, but I'd contend that the vast majority of those that frequent the Bunker look exactly like the guys that you'd find at the vast majority of sports bars on any Saturday or Sunday. The ONLY thing that makes them seem any 'cooler' is the fact that they are doing something (passive as it may be) that is far more popular and socially acceptable, namely watching sports and drinking beer while doing so. And of course there are more girls there, but most of them are no more appealing than the guys that dragged most of them there. The majority are overweight, past their prime guys that vary from slightly to very loud and or obnoxious. If it wasn't for the alcohol, you think most of them would be there? I think not. That's not a put down of sports bars or the people (including me) that frequent them. It's just an attempt at putting things in perspective.

3) Of course a GW store does not need to be a place to play nor should it be expected to be, and neither should any other gaming store for that matter. Those businesses do that though for the same reason the GW store did it. To promote the idea that the store in question was THE place to go to get your gaming products and improve/heighten your gaming experience. Developing a gaming 'community' built around your store only helps business in the vast majority of cases. The degree to which it does of course varies from store to store. The only real exception is when the co$t of setting aside that space begins to adversely impact their ability to make the kind of profit they want. The in-store gaming could be taking up too much space otherwise set aside for product display or maybe the group that games there has become a deterrence to new and repeat customers returning. That is up to the store to handle though.

Maybe the Bunkers problem was that it simply cost too much to rent the space. It's very possible, but I don't think it takes an accountant or business major to see that the total money they bring in in sales after the downsizing will be A LOT less and any growth in the future will be negligible. Maybe it's best for the company, but it certainly didn't do anything for the local gaming community.

My earlier, formative gaming experience was much the same as yours. As for you or anyone else already having a circle of fellow players to draw from now in your later years. Bully for you. That wasn't my situation being that I had been out of the hobby for a number of years and I guarantee it isn't the case for lots of other new players to the area or the hobby in general. A place like the Bunker has been a gathering place for people of a variety of GW gaming interests that for most people would not otherwise be available or possible. Again, if the change is good for GW, great for them. It may even be good for a number of the non-GW game stores and that is indeed very good too. They deserve as much or more support, assuming they're doing their job well. For the SoCal gaming community as a whole though, I fear it is at best a zero sum gain and at worst it is clearly a loss.

Am I 'mad' a GW? No. Disappointed? definitely.

1) Having the same people poo poo every single thing GW does isn't going to make them take notice. Your wallet is your best bet but let's be honest, people complaining on this site aren't looking for improvement. They are looking to complain. Why? Because most reasonable people know that GW isn't going to read these boards and change their minds about their business plans. Again, why? Because it hasn't happened yet and the same complaints (regarding price and how GW treats it's customers) have been circulating for almost a decade now.

2) No, it's not wrong. Every, single time I went into the Los Angeles Bunker at least 30% were of the variety I stated. That's on the bunker side. The number was higher on the store side. When I ran a GW the majority of the people that would hang out for more more than 20 minutes at the store simply didn't have any place else to go or people to hang out with. It's personal experience from running a GW store and having been into a number of these stores over the years.

3) Covered this a few times. Not going to cover it again.

As for my personal gaming experience I moved to a state recently (approximately 2 years ago) that doesn't have a GW. I didn't know a single person who was involved in the hobby in this state. Guess what I did? I went online, I found local stores and local game groups. I signed up on local forums as well as looking for game sections of larger forums. And now I play in regular events and have a large pool of possible people to play against. Just like in SoCal there is a large and thriving gaming community. And much like SoCal it's actually not in GW stores. If people want to find a game in Orange/LA/Ventura/Riverside Counties there are places to play. A buddy of mine from Minnesota spent the summer in Santa Barbara. He didn't know a single person when he headed out there but he played in tournaments almost every weekend for 7 straight weeks. He found opponents. The point is that GW's aren't a be all, end all of getting together to game. Especially not in the area the bunker is in. I'm pretty sure it's the same in Chicago. Seattle has a thriving gaming scene without the bunker there. And the Baltimore location that shut down is now a new FLGS run by the previous GW bunker manager.

I'll let someone else do the math but still having a recruitment store, the price they charge stockists for their products, massively lowering their overhead, and social media means that it's a smart move for GW.