Hey mates, after browsing the army lists lately I have noticed how most IG players tend to take every variant of the Leman Russ, with the exception of the Exterminator. Any particular reason why? Because currently Im running a mechanized Inquisition "Storm Trooper/IG army" out of the GK codex w/Coteaz leading it, and with the vast majority of my Army being made up by those units, I plan to have 500 points of allies, and plan to get 500 points of Sisters, IG, and Space Marines to mix things up. Anyways, I was looking through the IG codex to fill out my allies and thought how a Leman Russ Exterminator w/Pask and 3x Heavy Bolters and a Heavy Stubber would complement my army very well, as I have a lot of Dakka in my list currently and the extra firepower is very welcomed. However, many IG players at my store say the Exterminator isnt worth it and that I should try to find points to run Pask in a Punisher, as it is a lot more effective at shooting things and will be S6, or a Vanquisher for the anti-tank ability. Now I know the Punisher is very popular as who doesn't like 20x shots every time you shoot it, however personally I like the idea of having a mobile S8 Autocannon running around, which to me seems like will be able to do more then a 20x shot, S6 Punisher Cannon. Any particular reason why I should or shouldnt take an Exterminator and if yes, how has yours done for you?

It is generally better to take a lrbt w/ plasma sponsons( [b]str7 ap2 blast or str8 ap3 large blast ordinance) imo.

The exterminator benefits over the LRBT of being able to take viable sponsons and hull guns. The TL autocannons on top are just icing on the cake. LRBT's and any other russ with an ord. weapon on top should be taken bare bones.

If you want the exterminator, a hull lascannon and multi meltas makes a good tank/heavy killer, although plasma sponsons have merits. Bolter boating is not a terrible option, but punisher would be better in that regard.

Firstly, yes, a punisher is better than an exterminator. That shouldn't be too surprising given that it's more expensive.

Secondly, if we're looking at cheaper russes, you basically have three options, the LRBT, the exterminator, and the vanquisher.

The LRBT is utter junk, being out-shot by the exterminator against everything but AV14 (which it's still pretty bad against), and clustered marines out in the open. This leaves the exterminator and the vanquisher. One of them gives you three autocannons worth of firepower, while the other gives you two lascannons worth of firepower.

Personally, I'd take two lascannons over three autocannons any day of the week. Pask does make the exterminator S8, which is kind of classy, but pask in a vanquisher with a lascannon seriously beats face. I mean, we're talking about an infinite range S9 meltagun and a S10 lascannon, at BS4. There's an awful lot that fears that.

 Ailaros wrote:


The LRBT is utter junk, being out-shot by the exterminator against everything but AV14 (which it's still pretty bad against), and clustered marines out in the open.

Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week. Even if they spread well the battlecannon will hit three models, and the TL autocannons average 3 hits anyways. The difference is that the LRBT is ap3, and can ID toughness 4 models (bikers, anyone?)

Yes, you can take sponsons, and that helps, but by that point I think you'd be better served by making room to take a punisher.

Edit:

Pask in the vanquisher is literally hit-or-miss. You get two shots worth a ton of points, but first they have to hit, and then they have to get through an enemies cover save, so YMMV. I prefer pask in a bolter-boat punisher for maximum BS4, S6 dakka.

 kestril wrote:


Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week. Even if they spread well the battlecannon will hit three models, and the TL autocannons average 3 hits anyways. The difference is that the LRBT is ap3, and can ID toughness 4 models (bikers, anyone?)

Sorry, I agree with Ailaros, the LRBT is pretty poop for a 1 shot splat cannon. Also bikers are T5...

Pask in the vanquisher is literally hit-or-miss. You get two shots worth a ton of points, but first they have to hit, and then they have to get through an enemies cover save, so YMMV. I prefer pask in a bolter-boat punisher for maximum BS4, S6 dakka.

And that differs from everything else how? The LRBT is hit-or-miss too, although unlike a paskquisher, it'll only hit 50% of the time with it's one shot.

I've never tried a punisher. Even though I don't use FW, the fact that a flier with BS4 TL punishers exists, for a fraction of the price stops me from using them.

Derp. They are T5

The difference is in the template. It may miss its target but scatter and do some damage. IIRC the large blast template has to scatter at least 3 inches to be completely off target, so that means a roll of a 6 on the scatter die, and that's if it doesn't hit, even then, you have to factor in the size of the enemy squad. It's fair to say that the LRBT is more that 50% accurate when it comes to hitting, even if you wound less models than you originally intended. It also has the potential to generate more than 4 wounds. The thing is lovely on deepstrikers.

See, I'm trying to find the exterminator's niche, and I just can't seem to find it. AC's don't do much, and I'd rather take a weapon that has it's niche rather than a general blah tank. I.E. LRBT kills space marines, the Vanquisher kills vehicles, Punisher: infantry, Demolisher: DeathStars, Executioner: Elite infantry-- I don't see what the exterminator does.

 kestril wrote:

See, I'm trying to find the exterminator's niche, and I just can't seem to find it. AC's don't do much, and I'd rather take a weapon that has it's niche rather than a general blah tank. I.E. LRBT kills space marines, the Vanquisher kills vehicles, Punisher: infantry, Demolisher: DeathStars, Executioner: Elite infantry-- I don't see what the exterminator does.

Actually, its the general blah tank for players who hate templates. The AutoCannon is the jack-of-all-trade weapon. Putting two twin-linked Autocannons on the Leman Russ chasis exacerbates the notion; depending on what you complement it with determines its effectiveness.

An Exterminator with Heavy Bolters (or Plasma Cannons) makes it a relatively cheap means of dealing with infantry. Take the same Exterminator and give it Multi-Melta Sponsons and Las Cannon, it becomes a vehicle hunter.

It's a cheap means of getting decent firepower in exchange for more expensive, harder hitting weapons.

Just take an Exocutioner with heavy bolters. It synergizes well at 36".With 9 S5 heavy bolter shots and x3 S7 ap2 blast plasma templates it eats squads alive. Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time i've been usin this beast. Just a suggestion. Personaly though as to your original question, yeah, i'd go with the Exterminators over any other variant save for the above mentioned Exocutioner. But I wouldnt put Pask in it, thats a bit too much points for a tank that probably wont kill 220 points worth of stuff before it gets popped.

I wouldn't say that the standard LRBT is worthless, if anything its probably the most overlooked tank after the Exterminator. S8, AP 3 will hurt pretty much everything there is so I can still see how it has its uses, and the large-blast template is an extra bonus.

Not a fan of the Vanquisher, as though its a nice gun, especially with Pask, it really is a hit-or-miss kind of tank, and plus I feel that it has a limited role at what it does.

Now the Exterminator and Punisher in my opinion are very flexible tanks, especially with Pask. The Punisher w/ S6 Heavy Bolters and a S6 Punisher Cannon can definitely lay the hurt on infantry, both heavy and light, and can take out light transports and even the occasional flyer. The Exterminator is the same, except its toted more towards popping vehicles with 12 Armor or higher w/S8 shots thanks to Pask, but can still hurt infantry. At this point my army has both anti-tank and infantry killing weapons in abundance, but the Exterminator w/Pask is a lot cheaper compared to Pask in a Punisher

 Rommel44 wrote:
I wouldn't say that the standard LRBT is worthless, if anything its probably the most overlooked tank after the Exterminator. S8, AP 3 will hurt pretty much everything there is so I can still see how it has its uses, and the large-blast template is an extra bonus.

Not a fan of the Vanquisher, as though its a nice gun, especially with Pask, it really is a hit-or-miss kind of tank, and plus I feel that it has a limited role at what it does.

Now the Exterminator and Punisher in my opinion are very flexible tanks, especially with Pask. The Punisher w/ S6 Heavy Bolters and a S6 Punisher Cannon can definitely lay the hurt on infantry, both heavy and light, and can take out light transports and even the occasional flyer. The Exterminator is the same, except its toted more towards popping vehicles with 12 Armor or higher w/S8 shots thanks to Pask, but can still hurt infantry. At this point my army has both anti-tank and infantry killing weapons in abundance, but the Exterminator w/Pask is a lot cheaper compared to Pask in a Punisher

The issue with the LRBT isn't the S8 gun. It's how unreliable it can be at doing.. anything. Sure, a single shot can wipe out half a marine squad but that's if it hits. A lot of the time it will scatter off it's mark. It requires a 4+ to crack the most common AV in the game which isn't easy with a single shot. It's like expecting a single lascannon to do anything. This used to be remedied by it's sponson/hull gun but then heavy happened. So, I can see why Ailaros think it's a piece of junk. Other russes can take effective sponson weapons or have better main guns. I love my demolisher and I think the punisher is sweet.

However, that being said the LRBT has something up on the other tanks: How dirt cheap it is. In most games, this isn't really a factor. In fact, it's only really a factor or really low or high point games. At those points, though, it's durability and decent cannon really shines. Having a wall of AV 14 with a long ranged cannon is great if you can make that wall big. Having an AV 14 where high powered weapons are hard to fit into a list is also great. For most games, though, it isn't worth taking.

There seems to be a bit of confusion going on in this thread. Pask does NOT give you S6 punisher rounds against everything, nor does he give the bonus if you moved. He MUST stay still, and the bonus only gives him +1 strength vs vehicles or reroll to wound against MC's. Keep this in mind. A tank using pask has to stay still at times to fire to full effect, unless you're shooting normal infantry, which you get no bonus of any kind against. EDIT: I could've sworn I saw someone in this thread say that kind of stuff, but looking back I can't find it. D'oh well, guess I'm going crazy.

As for tanks, the exterminator is your "I have no clue what I'll see" tank. It will always be able to kill something but it will never be amazing at it's job like a specialist tank would be.

The good news is almost every russ is viable in some way now, so what you should do is find the tank that fits your list the best, and go from there.

 kestril wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


The LRBT is utter junk, being out-shot by the exterminator against everything but AV14 (which it's still pretty bad against), and clustered marines out in the open.

Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week. Even if they spread well the battlecannon will hit three models, and the TL autocannons average 3 hits anyways. The difference is that the LRBT is ap3, and can ID toughness 4 models (bikers, anyone?)

Sorry, but bikers are T5 now... gone are the days of 4(5).

Both the Punisher and Exterminator are tanks that I would use in the Bolter Boat configuration.

In that sense, the Punisher math-hammers a little better, but IMO the range is a bit of an issue. 24" range main gun doesn't synergize with 36" hull and sponson weapons as well as a 48" main gun. Just my opinion here. I'm not a fan of something that has the same range as my lasguns, and a very poor AP.

If Russes were 4 HP I'd be more willing to commit them to the short-range fight. As it is, I'm not really too interested in driving 200 point tanks right into the Necron and Grey Knights range sweet-spot.

I've been getting some good mileage out of my executioners. Hull heavy flamer, sponson multimeltas and a pmhs. I use it as a Swiss army knife, where it always has a tool for the job. Granted one could easily sub out for a punisher, but I've found myself wanting those extra points.

What about the Demolisher?

The Exterminator makes a solid all-rounder with a hull lascannon and sponson heavy bolters. Enough AT to threaten any tank (even if it's not much against heavier tanks, it's *something*, and it's rather effective against AV10/11/12), while retaining a large number of shots with which to engage enemy infantry, and the range to strike out across the board.

Now, as a Heavy Support unit in an IG army, you'll likely want something more specialized with those HS slots, but it's not a bad tank, and if building an Armored Company, they make excellent "Troop" tanks.

 CaptainHonkey wrote:
What about the Demolisher?

I like it. People really overestimate the st 10 ap 2 blast, so it tends to soak up a lot of fire. If it survives the first wave of your opponent's AT, it can really do some damage.

I like the exterminator. I actually take it to replace AC's in my infantry squads. I run it with Plasma Sponsons and a hull HB. It is cheap, just as effective against hoards as the bolter boat abd better against MEQS, TEQS and monstrous creatures. Also, it's pretty nifty versus light vehicles AV 10, AV11 and AV 12.

ender502

I have become a fan of the exterminator even more now in 6th. I run a squad of two (two manticores fill up,the slots)' with heavy bolter sponsons and a las cannon. It might be a tie for the amount of flyers this duo has taken out as opposed to my quad gun. Everything on here has the chance to glance or better on all those pesky necron and ork flyers. 4 twin link strength 7 shots, single strength 9 and six strength 5. Bound to role some sixes in there then the penetrating shots. This twice.

Not saying it is the best option, but, the exterminator is a multi tool in the IG army. Light tanks/transports, flyers, and infantry.

kestril wrote:Yes, you can take sponsons, and that helps, but by that point I think you'd be better served by making room to take a punisher.

Sponsons are the point of russes now in a heavy world. You get the firepower for very cheap, and on a durable frame, and you can shoot them all even if you move.

If you're taking russes for the splat cannon, and are thus not taking sponsons, then there's no real point in taking russes. Just take artillery.

kestril wrote:Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week.

Except they don't.

Let's look at AV13. The LRBT will hit it's target at roughly BS4 thanks to the new large blast rules. Of those times you hit, 1/6th glance, and 1/6th pen. Of the pens, 1/6th cause an explosion. Throw that all together, and you're looking at .22 HP stripped off per round of shooting, with a 1 in 56 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright.

Now look at the eradicator. It lands 3 hits on average. A sixth of them glance. That's .33 HP stripped off. To say that again, that's 50% more HP stripped off for the loss of a really insignificant chance to wreck the vehicle outright.

Go down the AV tree, and you find that the eradicator also does better. Look at monstrous creatures, and you see basically the same thing - the one-shot nature of the battlecannon seriously hamstringing it. Talk about hordes, and the exterminator is the clear winner unless those infantry models are packed in like sardines, which they won't be if there's a battlecannon on the other side of the board. The exterminator also beats out the battlecannon against terminators, whose larger sized bases make displacement a breeze, and that's before we even consider the fact that the battlecannon doesn't break terminator armor.

So, in the end, there are only two things that the battlecannon is better than an exterminator cannon. The first is AV14, which the russ can barely scratch while the exterminator literally can't hurt it. The other is clustered marines out in the open.

If you're not up against either of those two targets, the exterminator wins. The math shows so.

LRBTs are crappy now.

That's strange, because battle cannons are one of the things that give my BA nightmares. So.... I can expect to see not too many battle cannons then? I'd much rather face twin linked autocannons. They can't hit the homerun on my ASM like the battle cannon can.

Yeah, that's one of the annoying things I've found. Battlecannons only kill marines clustered in the open well... and it turns out that there is one army that winds up with marines clustered out in the open a lot...

I don't know if I'd bother with battlecannons just to handle BA players (like I sort of had to do hydras for DE skimmer spam in 5th ed), but I guess if there's a lot at your local meta...

That said, BA still die just as fast against melta spam...

If the battle cannon only has utility vs BA, I wouldn't use it. The BA are not that big of a threat to the IG due to generally poor model count.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus so many BA players take a super tiny army because they load up on toys. It really is a poor codex in my opinion, because its so hard to build a balanced list.

Well, it's not ONLY threatening to BA, it's just that that's the only time I can think of the battlecannon coming anywhere even within sniffing distance of being called a hard counter.

But yeah, it's not like you need them to handle BA either.

The regular russ still has a place in lists. You never take one, you take like 6, and make a wall of AV 14. Or 4 LRBT's and a couple of Demolishers to scare away things that get too close.

If you're not wanting to spam russes though, you should look into the more specialized variants. They're far more likely to do what you need.

EDIT: And in a world where many armies are going horde MEQ (at least in my area) The humble LRBT still has a very well defined purpose. It can still hurt armor, it can still clean up green tide and the like, it can still slap around MC's a bit, etc.

It's basically just like the exterminator. They're both cheap generalist tanks. One is a splat cannon with a 6 foot range, and the other is a weight of fire tank. Both have their place.

The question is what can 6 LRBTs do that 6 Exterminators can't? The answer is peel paint off of AV14 more, and are going to be a hard counter to marines armies that cluster out in the open.

Meanwhile, 6 exterminators are going to put some pretty serious hurt on mech and foot lists alike, and are going to be much better against fliers, and monstrous creatures, and terminators.

Or... eveything, basically.

I mean LRBT do turn 3+ armor into 5+ for most cover sources. I don't know the details of IG list building. I know they shoot me a lot and make me take lots of saves :(

 Ailaros wrote:
[

kestril wrote:Sorry, but what? A str 8 AP 3 ordinance blast beats 4 autocannon shots any day of the week.

Except they don't.

Let's look at AV13. The LRBT will hit it's target at roughly BS4 thanks to the new large blast rules. Of those times you hit, 1/6th glance, and 1/6th pen. Of the pens, 1/6th cause an explosion. Throw that all together, and you're looking at .22 HP stripped off per round of shooting, with a 1 in 56 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright.

Now look at the eradicator. It lands 3 hits on average. A sixth of them glance. That's .33 HP stripped off. To say that again, that's 50% more HP stripped off for the loss of a really insignificant chance to wreck the vehicle outright.

I should have clarified: Against infantry the battlecannon beats a TL autocannon any day of the week. I really don't like leaving anti-vehicle up to my tanks.
Tanks kill the infantry, the infantry kill the tanks, it's the cycle of the guard.

Go down the AV tree, and you find that the eradicator also does better. Look at monstrous creatures, and you see basically the same thing - the one-shot nature of the battlecannon seriously hamstringing it. Talk about hordes, and the exterminator is the clear winner unless those infantry models are packed in like sardines, which they won't be if there's a battlecannon on the other side of the board. The exterminator also beats out the battlecannon against terminators, whose larger sized bases make displacement a breeze, and that's before we even consider the fact that the battlecannon doesn't break terminator armor.

And the same against most MC's. Many MC's only have a 3+ save. The TL autocannon adverages 3 hits, and you fail a 3+ 1/3 of the time. I can see the exterminator being loaded with MM's or plasma cannons for a cheap gunboat, and wounds the autocannon gets would just be a bonus. It's more of a melta tank with autocannon sponsons, or a light executioner, but 4 TL autocannon shots are going to be as effective against most infantry targets as the battlecannon, that is, assuming perfect spacing by your opponent, and a bit better against MC's due to the autocannon's multi-wound potential.

As for displacement, some terminators deepstrike, marines deepstrike, stormtroopers deepstrike, ect, Displacement isn't that much of a breeze unless you want to forgo all your shooting and leave it up to a d6. Even with picture-perfect displacement, I've been able to fit three models under the large blast template, and that's a worst-case scenario, which is the average number of hits for the exterminator's two BS3, TL autocannons. On average, I can fit about 5 or 6 infantry models. And when it's really good, you can blast seven to ten.

So, in the end, there are only two things that the battlecannon is better than an exterminator cannon. The first is AV14, which the russ can barely scratch while the exterminator literally can't hurt it. The other is clustered marines out in the open.
If you're not up against either of those two targets, the exterminator wins. The math shows so.

I'll say that the TL autocannon is better at putting wounds on 2+ monstrous creatures, and better at anti-vehicle (although AC's arn't the bees-knees anymore when it comes to anti-tank.) Nevertheless, I should have clarified in the first post: Against infantry targets, the battlecannon is superior due to it's lower AP, and it's more-than-four-wounds potential. It's also better at slaying marines in cover and in the open. It's a bit hard to claim a 3+ cover save with the normal marine.

So, IMO, the question is: is the TL autocannon good enough to justify putting two sponsons on a high-cost tank. Now, plasma sponsons could be worth it, as the str 7 of the weapons work well together, and it gives some versatility against elite infantry. Heavy bolters sure, but you're paying a bit of a premium for those extra few kills that the Russ could claim anyways if it template clips one or two more models. MM's totally depend on your meta and how many vehicles you run across.

As I field 3 standard LRBT regularly here my experience using them:

Pro:
Long range
Only recently I deployed them on a table edge while shooting at those Long Fangs on the opposing table edge
Cheap
450 points for 3x AV14, it is just the cheapest of the LRs because the other cheap ones you have to use with sponsons
Durable
Goes with cheap. When you field 3+ LRs my experience is that alot of people just stop shooting at them.
Deadly to MEQ and AV10-13
Obvious

Contra:
Bad against Big Base
Recently it makes me angry when I hit only one terminator because of maximum spaced out models
Unreliable Weapon
With multi-shot units you can at least count to do some damage, but sometimes that BC just hits nothing

Basically I started IG because I like long range tanks. And it is working so far. My other army is CC CSM with vindicators and I just hated how I have to always go for the enemy because I can't shoot anybody past 24".
So you have to be careful when you go IG that you still have range superiority. So if you go for Plasma Vets and Demolishers only you might have problems against other guard or tau armys that just outgun you at long range.
More on topic:
I'd prefer Punisher with Pask versus an Exterminator. And I will be adding him to my 3 standard LRBT.
However this topic made me think about maybe adding 2 Exterminators instead. It would fit the LR wall concept better not having a too expensive target the opponent can concentrate on.

I miss being able to field the Leman Russ Exterminator with my Space Wolves

I recently have been able to field the model again due to the Allies matrix, and I've been satisfied with its performance thus far. As a bolter boat, it shreds light infantry in the open better than any template weapon can IMO because no amount of 2" spacing can save them. It's also surprisingly effective at AT, especially with the Pask upgrade. Stationary against AV12, having 4 twin-linked BS4 S8 shots is murderous, and IF that doesn't do the job, there's the 9 S6 heavy bolter shots that can usually peel off the last hull point.

One benefit that has not yet been mentioned is that it is actually a fairly decent anti-flyer. Although it doesn't have skyfire, being twin-linked helps, especially with 4 shots. Having all those shots on the turret weapon for 360 degree firing view is just golden. I faced two BA Storm Ravens in my last game and this tank helped take down one of them after I had taken care of the ground forces. I know the mathhammer will show this to be a "meh" cause, but it's better than nothing!

Reading this thread is convincing me to give the exterminator another go, however maybe not as a bolter boat. Possibly slap MM sponsons on it to help with MCs.
I've just had such poor performances from exterminators in the past.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Reading this thread is convincing me to give the exterminator another go, however maybe not as a bolter boat. Possibly slap MM sponsons on it to help with MCs.
I've just had such poor performances from exterminators in the past.

The exterminator certainly does fill a role and should be looked at seriously. Just give a lot of thought to configuring the hull and sponson weapons to fit your meta. I run 2 x exterminators with hull hb and sponson plasma.

Also, if I were going to spam a guard tank it would probably be the LRBT. It is so cheap that it is easy to put up a wall of AV 14. With guard everything counts in numbers.

ender502

One thing that no one has brought up (Unless they changed the FAQ) is that Heavy won't allow you to fire the battle cannon AND the hull/sponson weapons. So the Exterminator is definitely laying down alot more fire. My money is on the executioner though. Man I love that tank.

Only issue to me with the executioner is that you are likely to only hit one model per template with its main gun - and you miss 2/3 of the time almost. In the end you are left with 1 guy hit per turn. Adding HB will help but still increase the hefty cost.

 Mr_Johnson wrote:
Only issue to me with the executioner is that you are likely to only hit one model per template with its main gun - and you miss 2/3 of the time almost. In the end you are left with 1 guy hit per turn. Adding HB will help but still increase the hefty cost.

Tell that to the dark angels.
I'm taking an executioner (or two) just to have 3 tries on dropping the blasts are tightly packed terminators.
Also, a 2" scatter still clips the 1" base it was centered on. With BS3, 5 or less on the 2D6 means hit.

1/3 HIT (scatter die)
2/3 Scatter and Hit on (roll 5 or less 10/36)
That's 51% hit per shot when firing at a single model with no chance at scattering into another model in the same unit (and no overheat issue on that main gun that would discard the shot).

I'll start tracking the reality of it, but against maximum spread, I'm thinking I average 3 hits per shot. One dead on, one total miss, and 1 scatters into a pair of clipping hits.

Since I'm running devil dogs and executioners, I'll get plenty of data points pretty quick.

Alright everyone just chill your beans. The problem with math hammer, is it is vacuum. In all reality there is no best russ type. There is terrain on the board -that can generate many permutations to the battle even making it so you dont get around of shooting. Then there is targets and target saturation. I think the 4 auto cannon shots would do great against a raider spam over the battle cannon, but that is one situation out of the many other races. Now your local meta can be eschewed and you can only fight x races, which is a manipulation on the target saturation and target availability.

In all honesty that is why the so called "all comers" list exists. Now if you wanna know the absolute all comers tank that is hard to say, but as a ork player i have to say it is in the number of shots over the actual value of the shots. Thus the punisher with or without pask is more arguably the best all comers russ. With just strength 5 ap - and 20 dice! man what ok stats. But we all knew that, this is about a 4 shot auto cannon tank.

Pros:
Exterminator - can shoot air targets, yes, with additional support of sponsons
Can deal with light armor - up to heavy armor with sponsons
Can deal with MCs - to a extent, it makes the player roll saves(nigh the punisher could do it too)
Can use it sponsons in addition to its main turret!
Twin-linked

Cons:
number of shoots is lack luster
Ap is also lack luster - if it doesn't go through marines it usually makes guard upset
Not a blast weapon
Shorter range than other russ variants.


In reality, all you can argue in *Math Hammer of the blank table, with preferred targets* is %'s of various situations and outcomes; which in all honesty just will not cut it when it is coming to the table top. Good players wont let you play your preferred cards/stats that you math'ed out. Bad ones will.

Thus do what everyone else does. Play test it - hopefully against several different types of lists along with races. And if it works then! You can this is the supreme russ. Which i believe everyone knows without a doubt is the punisher tank, pasked, or not pasked.


But to the original question: It is worth it as a support/bullet magnet if it is even lucky enough to eat those bullets - it will go almost unquestioned ignored.

 guinness707 wrote:
Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time

Can someone explain this to me? I've been over the Codex, the BRB, and the FAQ's for both several times and I can't figure out where it says this.

Russ's take up my optional 3rd HS slot, sandwiched between 2 Manticores.

I'm liking the idea of slapping some sponsons on it for a heavy gun platform, MM's or Plasmas.

Bolterboat... meh I want to run a bunch of Chimeras so I'll have plenty of mid-strength shooting across the board.

I like the idea of taking down medium armor or heavy infantry/MC's with a pair of Exterminators.

The Vanquisher just feels underwhelming, I was testing a pair with hull LC and MM sponsons, just not enough hits to justify the cost.

I like the LRBT myself. I would add to Cyberian's list of pros that I don't need to roll to hit. Yes, I need to roll scatter, but I am quite good at rolling 1s and 2s, so I find that much less of a problem than hitting with weapons I need to roll to hit with.

Also, at 1500 pts which is what I usually play, I find naked LRBTs a lot easier to fit into the list.

wfischer wrote:

 guinness707 wrote:
Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time

Can someone explain this to me? I've been over the Codex, the BRB, and the FAQ's for both several times and I can't figure out where it says this.

In the imperial guard FAQ they say to ignore that "lumbering behemoth" rule the LRBT's used to have and instead to treat the tank as simply being "Heavy". Heavy vehicles can move and fire all weapons as though they were stationairy but may not move 'flat out'. However, under the description for ord weapons (dont have the rule book on me or i'd give you a page) it says that no other weapon may be fired in the same turn. I dont even think they can be snap fired for that matter. Personally I think its a bit of a slap for the ol stock LRBT but a blessing for most of the other marks.

 guinness707 wrote:

wfischer wrote:

 guinness707 wrote:
Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time

Can someone explain this to me? I've been over the Codex, the BRB, and the FAQ's for both several times and I can't figure out where it says this.

In the imperial guard FAQ they say to ignore that "lumbering behemoth" rule the LRBT's used to have and instead to treat the tank as simply being "Heavy". Heavy vehicles can move and fire all weapons as though they were stationairy but may not move 'flat out'. However, under the description for ord weapons (dont have the rule book on me or i'd give you a page) it says that no other weapon may be fired in the same turn. I dont even think they can be snap fired for that matter. Personally I think its a bit of a slap for the ol stock LRBT but a blessing for most of the other marks.

That rule only applies to non-vehicle models firing Ordinance weapons. (BRB pg. 51)

You should check the "Shooting With Vehicles", page 71. In particular, view the "Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons" subheading.

 Ailaros wrote:

Let's look at AV13. The LRBT will hit it's target at roughly BS4 thanks to the new large blast rules. Of those times you hit, 1/6th glance, and 1/6th pen. Of the pens, 1/6th cause an explosion. Throw that all together, and you're looking at .22 HP stripped off per round of shooting, with a 1 in 56 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright.

A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

Wouldn't it only be 55% of the time? 13-8 = 5. 1/3 chance to ding a hull point. Ordnance reroll yields (1/3) + (2/3)*(1/3) = 5/9.

BryllCream wrote:A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

You're right, I did goof the math, the LRBT looks like .37 hull points stripped, compared to the exterminator's .50.

Exterminator is still better, though.

kestril wrote:Against infantry targets, the battlecannon is superior

Against terminators, it's really easy to displace to hitting only 3 models per shot, what with their extra large bases. A russ hits infantry targets half the time, which means, after armor saves, you've got .2 terminators killed to the exterminator's .42. The exterminator is better against terminators.

Against anything with a 4+ save or worse, or are in cover, the exterminator and the battlecannon are more or less the same, unless the infantry squad in question has few models left, in which case multi-shot non-blast is better. Battlecannons aren't better here either.

Which means the only place where battlecannons have the possibility to be better is against Sv3+. The problem is that you've still got to hit them. Assuming decent but not perfect dispersal, you're looking at 4 models hit per hit, which averages 2 models per round of shooting to the exterminator's 3. This turns out that the battle cannon is only better if the marines are in 5+ or worse cover, and really only pull away from it in 6+ or worse cover. Meanwhile, the exterminator is better or equal against harder covered targets.

Which leaves us with marines out in the open. The only thing that the battlecannon really does well compared to the exterminator cannon. That and it can technically hurt AV14, however poorly.

Against everything else, the exterminator is better.

Griddlelol wrote:Reading this thread is convincing me to give the exterminator another go, however maybe not as a bolter boat. Possibly slap MM sponsons on it to help with MCs.
I've just had such poor performances from exterminators in the past.

Probably because exterminators still aren't awesome, what with being stuck lugging around only autocannons. They can do interesting stuff with pask, and are better against heavier fliers than the punisher, but if I had the points, I'd always just take the punisher instead. You get an awful lot for those extra 30 points.

In this case, don't let the fact that LRBTs are terrible make you think that exterminators are good, when they are, in fact, merely better than a terrible unit.

 Ailaros wrote:

In this case, don't let the fact that LRBTs are terrible make you think that exterminators are good, when they are, in fact, merely better than a terrible unit.

I suppose I always expect more from what is essentially a quadgun with AV:14. I'll toss some sponsons on it to see how it fares, but as I've said before, the sheer superiority of the Vulture puts me off Punishers.

 Ailaros wrote:

Which means the only place where battlecannons have the possibility to be better is against Sv3+. The problem is that you've still got to hit them. Assuming decent but not perfect dispersal, you're looking at 4 models hit per hit, which averages 2 models per round of shooting to the exterminator's 3.

Okay, here is where I lose you. 4 models hit, wounds on a 2+, is 4 wounds that force a 5+ save instead of a 3+. Autocannon hits 3 models, wounds on a 2+ and allows them to save on a 3+.

If the template misses, you still may clip two or three models due to the larger footprint of the spread-out squad, so I'd say the average per round would be 3, same as the autocannon, but one str higher, and one AP lower.

 Ailaros wrote:

BryllCream wrote:A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

You're right, I did goof the math, the LRBT looks like .37 hull points stripped, compared to the exterminator's .50.

S8 ordinance will have a 2/3 chance to strip a hull point, since you have a 1 in 3 chance with 2 dice. That's 0.66 vs the exterminator's 0.5, so the russ is superior for stripping hull points.

kestril wrote: 4 models hit, wounds on a 2+, is 4 wounds that force a 5+ save instead of a 3+. Autocannon hits 3 models, wounds on a 2+ and allows them to save on a 3+.

You're assuming that the russ hits with every shot. It does not. Furthermore, a russ is a bit better than an exterminator here. Let's look at two turns of firing against 4+ cover. The russ hits once, for 4 models hit, and the exterminator hits 6 times.

4 hits times 5/6ths wounds times 2/3ds makes through cover = 1.68 dead marines.
6 hits times 5/6ths wounds times 1/3rd makes through armor = 1.68 dead marines.

The only time the battlecannon is better against this ONE target type is when we're talking about 5+ cover, and it only really takes off if we're talking about 6+ cover or worse.

Or, marines in the open.

kestril wrote:If the template misses, you still may clip two or three models due to the larger footprint of the spread-out squad, so I'd say the average per round would be 3, same as the autocannon, but one str higher, and one AP lower.

But what do you base that number on?

If we're talking about bunched up squads, a scatter of even a short distance will miss them entirely. If we're talking about units spread out in a line, any scatter that isn't parallel to the line is likewise going to miss entirely. Infantry in a circle shape are practically impossible to get hits on with a scatter.

The scenario you're playing out seems to be one in which space marines are in a 2" lattice that makes up a perfect filled-in circle, and you shoot at the middle. I've never actually seen that before.

Griddlelol wrote:the sheer superiority of the Vulture puts me off Punishers.

Sure, then perhaps you might want to consider your tanks to be anti-tank? I mean, a lascannon is a pretty good deal for a hull weapon for a russ, and 30 points for TWO multimeltas on a AV14 chassis is a steal, in my opinion. For lighter stuff, the exterminator is okay, but for everything, it might be time to unpack the vanquishers.

I'm starting to think that the old addage of troops kill tanks, tanks kill troops may not be quite as true as it used to be.

BryllCream wrote:S8 ordinance will have a 2/3 chance to strip a hull point, since you have a 1 in 3 chance with 2 dice. That's 0.66 vs the exterminator's 0.5, so the russ is superior for stripping hull points.

Firstly, it's not 2/3ds, it's 20 36ths. It's .55, not .66.

Secondly, the russ still has to hit its target, which only happens 2/3ds of the time (being generous), even with the new blast template rules.

.666 * .555 = .369

Meanwhile, for the exterminator, it's

3 * .166 = .5

There's no way to make that any clearer.

It's cool that the new russ kits have exterminator and vanquisher in the same box. I'll definitely give them both a go once I get my pay check. I'm sure I can find something to look enough like Pask for people to know who it's meant to be...

 BryllCream wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

BryllCream wrote:A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

You're right, I did goof the math, the LRBT looks like .37 hull points stripped, compared to the exterminator's .50.

S8 ordinance will have a 2/3 chance to strip a hull point, since you have a 1 in 3 chance with 2 dice. That's 0.66 vs the exterminator's 0.5, so the russ is superior for stripping hull points.

No, that is not how it works, because you ignore the 2nd die when you get a result on the first hit. When you roll 2d6 and get two glance results with your ordnance weapon, it's still only one glance. You're treating it like firing two separate S8 weapons, which is not what happens. So you'll strip a hull point 55% of the time.

As much as I dislike the exterminator, the LRBT is a miserably inefficient anti-tank platform. And it's really not a very good anti-infantry weapon, either.

Corollax wrote:
You should check the "Shooting With Vehicles", page 71. In particular, view the "Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons" subheading.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

I think that the LRBT has a very useful role that as far as I can see hasn't been touched on yet in this thread.

The LRBT totally denies marines any space on the board that is not going to grant them a cover save, sometimes keeping an enemy cowering in a fox hole is exactly what is needed to claim victory.

If you've got even one BC then you'll be able to smash any MEQ that date to leave whatever they're hiding behind, this can give you a lot of room to work with because if the marine player wants to move his units around to counter yours then those marines are going to die.

In other words, it has a lot of potential as an area denial unit that is very durable and cheap, not to mention the fact that it can make very good use of cover itself with a camo net.

Ferrum wrote:The LRBT totally denies marines any space on the board that is not going to grant them a cover save, sometimes keeping an enemy cowering in a fox hole is exactly what is needed to claim victory.

Firstly, if your opponent isn't willing to risk his troops in order to do what it takes to win, then you don't need battlecannons to beat him.

Secondly, if you're talking about marines in the open against battlecannons, I think it's fair to assume more dispersal than in cover. In this case, we're talking about three hits per hit, which means 1.5 marines hit per turn for 1.26 dead marines. The exterminator throws down 3 hits for .84. Yeah, the battlecannon is better, certainly, but for both tanks we're talking about roughly one dead marine per turn. While that kind of low damage output might be more excusable for an autocannon, it really isn't for a battlecannon.

So what we're talking about is someone who is willing to let you have an objective, rather than risking a half a marine extra dead per turn.

Which means it only applies to people against whom psychological tricks work, namely, new players.

 Ferrum wrote:

The LRBT totally denies marines any space on the board that is not going to grant them a cover save, sometimes keeping an enemy cowering in a fox hole is exactly what is needed to claim victory.

If losing 3 Marines is going to lose me the game (which is all you'll possibly hit with a Battle Cannon), I've done something wrong by having only 3 Marines. You haven't done something right by having a Battle Cannon.

i got it! buy a LRBT to kill 3 marines a turn! that is what the math says. Or buy the autocannons to shoot something that may not be 3 marines!

 cormadepanda wrote:
i got it! buy a LRBT to kill 3 marines a turn! that is what the math says. Or buy the autocannons to shoot something that may not be 3 marines!

That's pretty much all this is about. I say screw the exterminator and LRBT, get a demolisher. That thing is sweet.

Edit: Vanquishers and Executioners are pretty cool too. A long range melta shot on a tough chassis? And can fire lascannons too?! Yes please! And of course, more plasma means more dead terminators.

 Ailaros wrote:

The LRBT is utter junk,

Sorry A-man, but just because you type it, doesn't make it so. I agree that it's not perfect
and may have it's upside/downside verses other variants, but you can't totally dismiss it. Or,
I guess you can, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't give it a go. I got sick to death of
reading on here how bad the Demolisher was by some people in 5th , and never had all the
same "luck" as those that hated it I guess.

To the OP, I'd simply say "yes, it is worth it.".

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

The LRBT is utter junk,

Sorry A-man, but just because you type it, doesn't make it so. I agree that it's not perfect
and may have it's upside/downside verses other variants, but you can't totally dismiss it. Or,
I guess you can, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't give it a go. I got sick to death of
reading on here how bad the Demolisher was by some people in 5th , and never had all the
same "luck" as those that hated it I guess.

To the OP, I'd simply say "yes, it is worth it.".

I second this notion.

This thread has just succeeded in making me not want to use LR's at all. Artillery all day!

 KplKeegan wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

The LRBT is utter junk,

Sorry A-man, but just because you type it, doesn't make it so. I agree that it's not perfect
and may have it's upside/downside verses other variants, but you can't totally dismiss it. Or,
I guess you can, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't give it a go. I got sick to death of
reading on here how bad the Demolisher was by some people in 5th , and never had all the
same "luck" as those that hated it I guess.

To the OP, I'd simply say "yes, it is worth it.".

I second this notion.

Movement passed. Meeting adjourned.

It also can depend on your meta and tactics you use. I play against a lot of CSM and I love the ap3. I also run into a lot of transports filled with marines so I love popping them with lascannons and then blasting whole squads of marines that are in the remains.

^Pretty much, I feel like Ailaros over emphasizes the usefulness of math hammer far too often. Some of the ridiculous assumptions in this thread behind that math made me chuckle.

 Red Corsair wrote:
^Pretty much, I feel like Ailaros over emphasizes the usefulness of math hammer far too often. Some of the ridiculous assumptions in this thread behind that math made me chuckle.

I think he expects too much out of a 150 pts tank, personally. You spam LRBTs not rely on them.

alarmingrick wrote:I agree that it's not perfect, but you can't totally dismiss it.

I didn't just dismiss it, though. I gave arguments for why it's terrible and should generally not be taken compared to other options.

If you have good reasons to take them when the exterminator is better against so much, I'd like to hear them.

Red Corsair wrote:Some of the ridiculous assumptions in this thread behind that math made me chuckle.

Such as?

TheCustomLime wrote:I think he expects too much out of a 150 pts tank, personally. You spam LRBTs not rely on them.

Personally, I usually make them 200 points, and take them with four guns, rather than just one gun for 150 points, but that doesn't mean that the LRBT is good, or that the exterminator isn't better.

I can rely on fully kitted out russes. Saving a few points, but doing so in such a way where you make the big pile of points you DO spend unreliable doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

 Ailaros wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:I agree that it's not perfect, but you can't totally dismiss it.

I didn't just dismiss it, though. I gave arguments for why it's terrible and should generally not be taken compared to other options.

If you have good reasons to take them when the exterminator is better against so much, I'd like to hear them.

Red Corsair wrote:Some of the ridiculous assumptions in this thread behind that math made me chuckle.

Such as?

TheCustomLime wrote:I think he expects too much out of a 150 pts tank, personally. You spam LRBTs not rely on them.

Personally, I usually make them 200 points, and take them with four guns, rather than just one gun for 150 points, but that doesn't mean that the LRBT is good, or that the exterminator isn't better.

I can rely on fully kitted out russes. Saving a few points, but doing so in such a way where you make the big pile of points you DO spend unreliable doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

Why is why I'm starting to dig Vanquishers. They can actually -do- what you want them to. LRBTs, though, hardly ever do what you want them to. People like them, though, because you can reasonably want them to do several different things. Where the LRBT shines, though, is just spamming them at high point games. You can cover the battlefield in templates and they'll have a hard time taking you out. You don't want effective tanks in this sense. You want tanks that are there to make life hard for your opponent. A wall of AV14 that shoots a ton of explosive. The Exterminator can be spammed as well but it just doesn't have the same punch as all those templates.

They are also nice for Av14 in small games. Outside of those two circumstances, though, they are too unreliable to run competitively. 5 more points gets you a vanquisher, which is a far better tanks. IMO. 15 more for a demolisher.

TheCustomLime wrote:


Why is why I'm starting to dig Vanquishers. They can actually -do- what you want them to. LRBTs, though, hardly ever do what you want them to. People like them, though, because you can reasonably want them to do several different things. Where the LRBT shines, though, is just spamming them at high point games. You can cover the battlefield in templates and they'll have a hard time taking you out. You don't want effective tanks in this sense. You want tanks that are there to make life hard for your opponent. A wall of AV14 that shoots a ton of explosive. The Exterminator can be spammed as well but it just doesn't have the same punch as all those templates.

Vanquisher's will always be king at fighting AV14 Vehicles at range. Slot a Las Cannon on the hull and its a Tank Destroyer. But aside from that, you can't realistically math hammer a scattering template, which is why the math-addicts think they're terrible.

In the case of the Leman Russ, being able to Instant Death T4 with an AP value of 3 is a rather strong deterrent against Bugs and Nobs and Crisis Suits, not to mentionTank Shocking horde units into clusters with empty Chimeras and letting the longer ranged Battle Cannons wail on them with impunity with selective fire.

 Ailaros wrote:

kestril wrote: 4 models hit, wounds on a 2+, is 4 wounds that force a 5+ save instead of a 3+. Autocannon hits 3 models, wounds on a 2+ and allows them to save on a 3+.

You're assuming that the russ hits with every shot. It does not. Furthermore, a russ is a bit better than an exterminator here. Let's look at two turns of firing against 4+ cover. The russ hits once, for 4 models hit, and the exterminator hits 6 times.

4 hits times 5/6ths wounds times 2/3ds makes through cover = 1.68 dead marines.
6 hits times 5/6ths wounds times 1/3rd makes through armor = 1.68 dead marines.

The only time the battlecannon is better against this ONE target type is when we're talking about 5+ cover, and it only really takes off if we're talking about 6+ cover or worse.

Or, marines in the open.

I'm not defending vanilla Russes (recently bought a crap-tonne of them off ebay because they were cheap, I'm as gutted as anyone that my recent experiments with them have been lacklustre to say the least), I thought you'd over-looked the Ordinance armour penetration when you were actually factoring in the to-hit chance. My apologies for miss-reading what you said.

Well before this thread completely goes off topic, I am most likely going to go with an Exterminator, as you guys made a lot of valid points about it, however I might try out a Punisher in a game or two to see how it does w/Pask in it. Has anyone tried the Pask-Punisher combo yet? Because I would like to hear some feedback about it.

 Rommel44 wrote:
Well before this thread completely goes off topic, I am most likely going to go with an Exterminator, as you guys made a lot of valid points about it, however I might try out a Punisher in a game or two to see how it does w/Pask in it. Has anyone tried the Pask-Punisher combo yet? Because I would like to hear some feedback about it.

I've never used it, nor seen it used. A tank that has only 24" range really doesn't need the BS4 upgrade for 50pts, since I highly doubt it won't be moving.

 Rommel44 wrote:
Well before this thread completely goes off topic, I am most likely going to go with an Exterminator, as you guys made a lot of valid points about it, however I might try out a Punisher in a game or two to see how it does w/Pask in it. Has anyone tried the Pask-Punisher combo yet? Because I would like to hear some feedback about it.

Ive used the bolter boat punisher with pask against a flying daemon prince spam where the tank nearly killed 3 different daemon princes so it does great againts monstrous creatures if you got a nice bubble wrap or protection for it. I then tried the same tank against CSM as thats the more common army I play against and to be honest everyone in the wrold could post mathhammer of how its better than a LRBT. The tank never achieved its points back, let alone even half of its points. My LRBT's were still doing what I had them do best, blast all the guys in the transports when they were popped.

People also can post the math hammer of the chances of hitting a target with the template of the LRBT but I could careless. Since the new rule change in 6th for vehicles I think I missed 1 vehicle in all my games playing. Everyone also talks about completely scattering off target but I have that happen maybe once in 2-3 games.

All Im stating is that with my personally experience math hammer isnt always right. and to the OP if you have use for an exterminator in your list then take it. Think about what the tank is going to do and if you think something else does better that you might use instead then play test. Ive tested most of the LR varients and I still find the battle tank my favored tank and have decided not to pay so muchh attention to math hammer when it comes to LR.

 tankboy145 wrote:

everyone in the wrold could post mathhammer of how its better than a LRBT. The tank never achieved its points back, let alone even half of its points. My LRBT's were still doing what I had them do best, blast all the guys in the transports when they were popped.

People also can post the math hammer of the chances of hitting a target with the template of the LRBT but I could careless. Since the new rule change in 6th for vehicles I think I missed 1 vehicle in all my games playing. Everyone also talks about completely scattering off target but I have that happen maybe once in 2-3 games.

All Im stating is that with my personally experience math hammer isnt always right. and to the OP if you have use for an exterminator in your list then take it. Think about what the tank is going to do and if you think something else does better that you might use instead then play test. Ive tested most of the LR varients and I still find the battle tank my favored tank and have decided not to pay so muchh attention to math hammer when it comes to LR.

This is so ridiculous. You clearly don't understand statistics. No, the statistics won't happen every time, but they are the only objective way to understand how anything works.

Every time your LRBT kills a squad, my LRBT gets blown up by a lucky lascannon on turn one. Stats are stats, learn to love them, learn to understand them, don't dismiss them for anecdotal evidence.

By your logic, lasguns are op, since one time I killed a terminator on over-watch.

Anecdotal evidence is the poison of 40K arguments. When building a list, you have to look at likely outcomes, not what your buddy did last week. Mathhammer, computed correctly, is always right. The assumptions behind it may not always be relevant in a given case, however. Mathhammer is how I make most of my all important movement decisions that people are always are saying are more important than mathhammer. Why don't you want to walk up within charge range of DC? Oh yeah, mathhammer says they'll crush you. If mathhammer didn't work, you'd have no way of knowing not to send guardsmen to fight DC.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:

everyone in the wrold could post mathhammer of how its better than a LRBT. The tank never achieved its points back, let alone even half of its points. My LRBT's were still doing what I had them do best, blast all the guys in the transports when they were popped.

People also can post the math hammer of the chances of hitting a target with the template of the LRBT but I could careless. Since the new rule change in 6th for vehicles I think I missed 1 vehicle in all my games playing. Everyone also talks about completely scattering off target but I have that happen maybe once in 2-3 games.

All Im stating is that with my personally experience math hammer isnt always right. and to the OP if you have use for an exterminator in your list then take it. Think about what the tank is going to do and if you think something else does better that you might use instead then play test. Ive tested most of the LR varients and I still find the battle tank my favored tank and have decided not to pay so muchh attention to math hammer when it comes to LR.

This is so ridiculous. You clearly don't understand statistics. No, the statistics won't happen every time, but they are the only objective way to understand how anything works.

Every time your LRBT kills a squad, my LRBT gets blown up by a lucky lascannon on turn one. Stats are stats, learn to love them, learn to understand them, don't dismiss them for anecdotal evidence.

By your logic, lasguns are op, since one time I killed a terminator on over-watch.

Mathhammer is not statistical data, its theoretical probability. Nothing objective about that. Get some models and dice out and play some shooting/survivability scenarios 100 times. That's the data I'd listen to.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Rommel44 wrote:
Well before this thread completely goes off topic, I am most likely going to go with an Exterminator, as you guys made a lot of valid points about it, however I might try out a Punisher in a game or two to see how it does w/Pask in it. Has anyone tried the Pask-Punisher combo yet? Because I would like to hear some feedback about it.

I've never used it, nor seen it used. A tank that has only 24" range really doesn't need the BS4 upgrade for 50pts, since I highly doubt it won't be moving.

Punisher is 36" range. Pask Punishers are seriously powerful.

You don't have to roll dice hundreds of times to come up with data for a given scenario. Math can do that for you. But there are just so many scenarios in 40K. Mathhammer is a guideline to tell you what is good in general.

 guinness707 wrote:

Mathhammer is not statistical data, its theoretical probability. Nothing objective about that. Get some models and dice out and play some shooting/survivability scenarios 100 times. That's the data I'd listen to.

How do I know that two of one thing added to two of another will get four? I demand to have them in front of me and count them out!

Yeah, no. Mathammer works dude. Get used to it.

Mathhammer is great when comparing A to B weapon...but it does miss alot as well. One poster mentioned how his exterminator was often ignored and hence survived more. Also, how will a player recat to a line of 3 naked LRBT's? Math hammer is crazy instructive but not the end of the conversation.

ender502

Martel732 wrote:
Why don't you want to walk up within charge range of DC? Oh yeah, mathhammer says they'll crush you. If mathhammer didn't work, you'd have no way of knowing not to send guardsmen to fight DC.

Or you could use a pair of eyeballs and common sense.

 guinness707 wrote:

Mathhammer is not statistical data, its theoretical probability. Nothing objective about that. Get some models and dice out and play some shooting/survivability scenarios 100 times. That's the data I'd listen to.

It's as close to statistical data as you can get without collating the individual dice rolls from every single player. While each player may not see exact numbers, across thousands of players who play all the time, the average will be close to the probability.

 BryllCream wrote:

Punisher is 36" range. Pask Punishers are seriously powerful.

Also, the punisher is 24".

 Griddlelol wrote:

 guinness707 wrote:

Mathhammer is not statistical data, its theoretical probability. Nothing objective about that. Get some models and dice out and play some shooting/survivability scenarios 100 times. That's the data I'd listen to.

It's as close to statistical data as you can get without collating the individual dice rolls from every single player. While each player may not see exact numbers, across thousands of players who play all the time, the average will be close to the probability.

Yes, your right. Its the closest you can get. But its still jsut a subjective probability. Great place to start a discussion, but not the end.

 guinness707 wrote:


Yes, your right. Its the closest you can get. But its still jsut a subjective probability. Great place to start a discussion, but not the end.

How is it subjective? In no way is the mathematical probability of a dice subjective. The way you choose to use that data can be, but the raw probability is not.

I also never said it was an end to a discussion, but rather that anecdotal "this unit did awesome!" is a pathetic attempt to ignore the objective probability. When it comes to determining which gun is better (which is what we're essentially doing), the probability is one of the best ways to do that, if not the best.
Expecting a unit to perform better than its probable output consistently will result in disappointment.

Also, clustering out of a transport? Who uses rhinos any more?

 Griddlelol wrote:

 guinness707 wrote:


Yes, your right. Its the closest you can get. But its still jsut a subjective probability. Great place to start a discussion, but not the end.

How is it subjective? In no way is the mathematical probability of a dice subjective. The way you choose to use that data can be, but the raw probability is not.

I also never said it was an end to a discussion, but rather that anecdotal "this unit did awesome!" is a pathetic attempt to ignore the objective probability. When it comes to determining which gun is better (which is what we're essentially doing), the probability is one of the best ways to do that, if not the best.
Expecting a unit to perform better than its probable output consistently will result in disappointment.

Also, clustering out of a transport? Who uses rhinos any more?

I mis-used the word. yeah the raw probability is as objective as anything else as long as you keep the word 'probable' in there. All i'm trying to say is that experience with a unit in real tabletop situations is more valuble than mathhammer thats all. Use what works best in your local meta

Sadly, chaos is still using Rhino's

My BA use rhino equivalents.


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 KplKeegan wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why don't you want to walk up within charge range of DC? Oh yeah, mathhammer says they'll crush you. If mathhammer didn't work, you'd have no way of knowing not to send guardsmen to fight DC.

Or you could use a pair of eyeballs and common sense.

That's just a euphemism for shorthand mathhammer.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 tankboy145 wrote:

everyone in the wrold could post mathhammer of how its better than a LRBT. The tank never achieved its points back, let alone even half of its points. My LRBT's were still doing what I had them do best, blast all the guys in the transports when they were popped.

People also can post the math hammer of the chances of hitting a target with the template of the LRBT but I could careless. Since the new rule change in 6th for vehicles I think I missed 1 vehicle in all my games playing. Everyone also talks about completely scattering off target but I have that happen maybe once in 2-3 games.

All Im stating is that with my personally experience math hammer isnt always right. and to the OP if you have use for an exterminator in your list then take it. Think about what the tank is going to do and if you think something else does better that you might use instead then play test. Ive tested most of the LR varients and I still find the battle tank my favored tank and have decided not to pay so muchh attention to math hammer when it comes to LR.

This is so ridiculous. You clearly don't understand statistics. No, the statistics won't happen every time, but they are the only objective way to understand how anything works.

Every time your LRBT kills a squad, my LRBT gets blown up by a lucky lascannon on turn one. Stats are stats, learn to love them, learn to understand them, don't dismiss them for anecdotal evidence.

By your logic, lasguns are op, since one time I killed a terminator on over-watch.

I under stand statistics. What I was pointing out is that I give my LRBT's an opportunity to do great and to really destroy MEQ units in transports as thats what I play often, so generally my tanks kill more marines than what math hammer suggests, compared to an exterminator I would be lucky to kill 5 or so marines for 150pts worth of the tank. So in my meta I find good use of LRBT of an exterminator, also why I suggested to the OP to try out what varients he has and to see whats better for his list.

I think what he's trying to say is that the LRBT has great "homerun potential". The statistical outliers for this weapon are incredibly devastating. Ie, marines not fully spread out.

All this being said, not all armies are meq. So I urge people to try to look at this from an all comers standpoint.

Martel732 wrote:
All this being said, not all armies are meq. So I urge people to try to look at this from an all comers standpoint.

As true as that is, about 1/2 of the codexes are MEQ and, depending on your local meta, MEQ's could make up more than 1/2 of the armies you're likely to see. Focusing heavily on MEQ's is, for many people, the best way to make a TAC list.

How do you rate the demolisher?

Martel732 wrote:
I think what he's trying to say is that the LRBT has great "homerun potential". The statistical outliers for this weapon are incredibly devastating. Ie, marines not fully spread out.

This is why I still use LRBTs, because not everyone I know uses proper spacing (why infact very few people I know displace to 2" every time) in my opinion the LRBT is cheap and alright at stuff, I've never been much of a hard counter guy so I'd rather have a tank alright at all stuff than a tank great at only good at some stuff.

Note the following is anecdotal and is in no way an argument against the math which shows that LRBTs aren't as good as other variants:

My blast templates just seem to hit more often, I don't know why, something do do with the dice, so I personally will usually have 1 LRBT, 1 executioner and 1 vanquisher with pask, sub in a manticore sometimes. For me personally the LRBT works but its obviously YMMV

In general I would say find the tank that works for you and use it, no amount of forum argument will compensate for actual TT experience

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
How do you rate the demolisher?

The demolisher is of course a very strong unit when used correctly.

Against Demon Princes, Wolfriders, Warbosses or other T5 targets it causes instant death.
It has a very good chance to pierce LRs with 10+ best of 2d6
He can be a psycholical factor preventing some enemy units to come too close to him, you can use that to your advantage.

Often he will be one of the enemies main targets, you can use this to your advantage too though sometimes as hes still AV14.
His limited range is a serious matter though.
If you rely heavy on Plasma, Melter and Demolishers you will be very strong at 12-24" but other Armies like Tau, IG or even some SM lists might outgun you before you come close.
Because of this I find him a good addition to an army that lacks a hard punch at close range.
So still outgun your enemy on long range but if he comes close: send the Demolisher.

Don't expect him to act best against Terminators and such though as spacing with large models will make him hit only 1 at times. Against those Plasma and Lasgunfire or of the LRs the Punisher are still the way to go.

Grand thanks, was planning on adding one to my tallarn allies with nurgle daemons, and looking forward to more pics of the new daemon fly infantry