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I miss being able to field the Leman Russ Exterminator with my Space Wolves

I recently have been able to field the model again due to the Allies matrix, and I've been satisfied with its performance thus far. As a bolter boat, it shreds light infantry in the open better than any template weapon can IMO because no amount of 2" spacing can save them. It's also surprisingly effective at AT, especially with the Pask upgrade. Stationary against AV12, having 4 twin-linked BS4 S8 shots is murderous, and IF that doesn't do the job, there's the 9 S6 heavy bolter shots that can usually peel off the last hull point.

One benefit that has not yet been mentioned is that it is actually a fairly decent anti-flyer. Although it doesn't have skyfire, being twin-linked helps, especially with 4 shots. Having all those shots on the turret weapon for 360 degree firing view is just golden. I faced two BA Storm Ravens in my last game and this tank helped take down one of them after I had taken care of the ground forces. I know the mathhammer will show this to be a "meh" cause, but it's better than nothing!

Reading this thread is convincing me to give the exterminator another go, however maybe not as a bolter boat. Possibly slap MM sponsons on it to help with MCs.
I've just had such poor performances from exterminators in the past.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Reading this thread is convincing me to give the exterminator another go, however maybe not as a bolter boat. Possibly slap MM sponsons on it to help with MCs.
I've just had such poor performances from exterminators in the past.

The exterminator certainly does fill a role and should be looked at seriously. Just give a lot of thought to configuring the hull and sponson weapons to fit your meta. I run 2 x exterminators with hull hb and sponson plasma.

Also, if I were going to spam a guard tank it would probably be the LRBT. It is so cheap that it is easy to put up a wall of AV 14. With guard everything counts in numbers.

ender502

One thing that no one has brought up (Unless they changed the FAQ) is that Heavy won't allow you to fire the battle cannon AND the hull/sponson weapons. So the Exterminator is definitely laying down alot more fire. My money is on the executioner though. Man I love that tank.

Only issue to me with the executioner is that you are likely to only hit one model per template with its main gun - and you miss 2/3 of the time almost. In the end you are left with 1 guy hit per turn. Adding HB will help but still increase the hefty cost.

 Mr_Johnson wrote:
Only issue to me with the executioner is that you are likely to only hit one model per template with its main gun - and you miss 2/3 of the time almost. In the end you are left with 1 guy hit per turn. Adding HB will help but still increase the hefty cost.

Tell that to the dark angels.
I'm taking an executioner (or two) just to have 3 tries on dropping the blasts are tightly packed terminators.
Also, a 2" scatter still clips the 1" base it was centered on. With BS3, 5 or less on the 2D6 means hit.

1/3 HIT (scatter die)
2/3 Scatter and Hit on (roll 5 or less 10/36)
That's 51% hit per shot when firing at a single model with no chance at scattering into another model in the same unit (and no overheat issue on that main gun that would discard the shot).

I'll start tracking the reality of it, but against maximum spread, I'm thinking I average 3 hits per shot. One dead on, one total miss, and 1 scatters into a pair of clipping hits.

Since I'm running devil dogs and executioners, I'll get plenty of data points pretty quick.

Alright everyone just chill your beans. The problem with math hammer, is it is vacuum. In all reality there is no best russ type. There is terrain on the board -that can generate many permutations to the battle even making it so you dont get around of shooting. Then there is targets and target saturation. I think the 4 auto cannon shots would do great against a raider spam over the battle cannon, but that is one situation out of the many other races. Now your local meta can be eschewed and you can only fight x races, which is a manipulation on the target saturation and target availability.

In all honesty that is why the so called "all comers" list exists. Now if you wanna know the absolute all comers tank that is hard to say, but as a ork player i have to say it is in the number of shots over the actual value of the shots. Thus the punisher with or without pask is more arguably the best all comers russ. With just strength 5 ap - and 20 dice! man what ok stats. But we all knew that, this is about a 4 shot auto cannon tank.

Pros:
Exterminator - can shoot air targets, yes, with additional support of sponsons
Can deal with light armor - up to heavy armor with sponsons
Can deal with MCs - to a extent, it makes the player roll saves(nigh the punisher could do it too)
Can use it sponsons in addition to its main turret!
Twin-linked

Cons:
number of shoots is lack luster
Ap is also lack luster - if it doesn't go through marines it usually makes guard upset
Not a blast weapon
Shorter range than other russ variants.


In reality, all you can argue in *Math Hammer of the blank table, with preferred targets* is %'s of various situations and outcomes; which in all honesty just will not cut it when it is coming to the table top. Good players wont let you play your preferred cards/stats that you math'ed out. Bad ones will.

Thus do what everyone else does. Play test it - hopefully against several different types of lists along with races. And if it works then! You can this is the supreme russ. Which i believe everyone knows without a doubt is the punisher tank, pasked, or not pasked.


But to the original question: It is worth it as a support/bullet magnet if it is even lucky enough to eat those bullets - it will go almost unquestioned ignored.

 guinness707 wrote:
Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time

Can someone explain this to me? I've been over the Codex, the BRB, and the FAQ's for both several times and I can't figure out where it says this.

Russ's take up my optional 3rd HS slot, sandwiched between 2 Manticores.

I'm liking the idea of slapping some sponsons on it for a heavy gun platform, MM's or Plasmas.

Bolterboat... meh I want to run a bunch of Chimeras so I'll have plenty of mid-strength shooting across the board.

I like the idea of taking down medium armor or heavy infantry/MC's with a pair of Exterminators.

The Vanquisher just feels underwhelming, I was testing a pair with hull LC and MM sponsons, just not enough hits to justify the cost.

I like the LRBT myself. I would add to Cyberian's list of pros that I don't need to roll to hit. Yes, I need to roll scatter, but I am quite good at rolling 1s and 2s, so I find that much less of a problem than hitting with weapons I need to roll to hit with.

Also, at 1500 pts which is what I usually play, I find naked LRBTs a lot easier to fit into the list.

wfischer wrote:

 guinness707 wrote:
Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time

Can someone explain this to me? I've been over the Codex, the BRB, and the FAQ's for both several times and I can't figure out where it says this.

In the imperial guard FAQ they say to ignore that "lumbering behemoth" rule the LRBT's used to have and instead to treat the tank as simply being "Heavy". Heavy vehicles can move and fire all weapons as though they were stationairy but may not move 'flat out'. However, under the description for ord weapons (dont have the rule book on me or i'd give you a page) it says that no other weapon may be fired in the same turn. I dont even think they can be snap fired for that matter. Personally I think its a bit of a slap for the ol stock LRBT but a blessing for most of the other marks.

 guinness707 wrote:

wfischer wrote:

 guinness707 wrote:
Ever since 6th and LRBT's made the change to being Heavy and not being able to fire their ord guns and sponsons at the same time

Can someone explain this to me? I've been over the Codex, the BRB, and the FAQ's for both several times and I can't figure out where it says this.

In the imperial guard FAQ they say to ignore that "lumbering behemoth" rule the LRBT's used to have and instead to treat the tank as simply being "Heavy". Heavy vehicles can move and fire all weapons as though they were stationairy but may not move 'flat out'. However, under the description for ord weapons (dont have the rule book on me or i'd give you a page) it says that no other weapon may be fired in the same turn. I dont even think they can be snap fired for that matter. Personally I think its a bit of a slap for the ol stock LRBT but a blessing for most of the other marks.

That rule only applies to non-vehicle models firing Ordinance weapons. (BRB pg. 51)

You should check the "Shooting With Vehicles", page 71. In particular, view the "Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons" subheading.

 Ailaros wrote:

Let's look at AV13. The LRBT will hit it's target at roughly BS4 thanks to the new large blast rules. Of those times you hit, 1/6th glance, and 1/6th pen. Of the pens, 1/6th cause an explosion. Throw that all together, and you're looking at .22 HP stripped off per round of shooting, with a 1 in 56 chance of wrecking the vehicle outright.

A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

Wouldn't it only be 55% of the time? 13-8 = 5. 1/3 chance to ding a hull point. Ordnance reroll yields (1/3) + (2/3)*(1/3) = 5/9.

BryllCream wrote:A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

You're right, I did goof the math, the LRBT looks like .37 hull points stripped, compared to the exterminator's .50.

Exterminator is still better, though.

kestril wrote:Against infantry targets, the battlecannon is superior

Against terminators, it's really easy to displace to hitting only 3 models per shot, what with their extra large bases. A russ hits infantry targets half the time, which means, after armor saves, you've got .2 terminators killed to the exterminator's .42. The exterminator is better against terminators.

Against anything with a 4+ save or worse, or are in cover, the exterminator and the battlecannon are more or less the same, unless the infantry squad in question has few models left, in which case multi-shot non-blast is better. Battlecannons aren't better here either.

Which means the only place where battlecannons have the possibility to be better is against Sv3+. The problem is that you've still got to hit them. Assuming decent but not perfect dispersal, you're looking at 4 models hit per hit, which averages 2 models per round of shooting to the exterminator's 3. This turns out that the battle cannon is only better if the marines are in 5+ or worse cover, and really only pull away from it in 6+ or worse cover. Meanwhile, the exterminator is better or equal against harder covered targets.

Which leaves us with marines out in the open. The only thing that the battlecannon really does well compared to the exterminator cannon. That and it can technically hurt AV14, however poorly.

Against everything else, the exterminator is better.

Griddlelol wrote:Reading this thread is convincing me to give the exterminator another go, however maybe not as a bolter boat. Possibly slap MM sponsons on it to help with MCs.
I've just had such poor performances from exterminators in the past.

Probably because exterminators still aren't awesome, what with being stuck lugging around only autocannons. They can do interesting stuff with pask, and are better against heavier fliers than the punisher, but if I had the points, I'd always just take the punisher instead. You get an awful lot for those extra 30 points.

In this case, don't let the fact that LRBTs are terrible make you think that exterminators are good, when they are, in fact, merely better than a terrible unit.

 Ailaros wrote:

In this case, don't let the fact that LRBTs are terrible make you think that exterminators are good, when they are, in fact, merely better than a terrible unit.

I suppose I always expect more from what is essentially a quadgun with AV:14. I'll toss some sponsons on it to see how it fares, but as I've said before, the sheer superiority of the Vulture puts me off Punishers.

 Ailaros wrote:

Which means the only place where battlecannons have the possibility to be better is against Sv3+. The problem is that you've still got to hit them. Assuming decent but not perfect dispersal, you're looking at 4 models hit per hit, which averages 2 models per round of shooting to the exterminator's 3.

Okay, here is where I lose you. 4 models hit, wounds on a 2+, is 4 wounds that force a 5+ save instead of a 3+. Autocannon hits 3 models, wounds on a 2+ and allows them to save on a 3+.

If the template misses, you still may clip two or three models due to the larger footprint of the spread-out squad, so I'd say the average per round would be 3, same as the autocannon, but one str higher, and one AP lower.

 Ailaros wrote:

BryllCream wrote:A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

You're right, I did goof the math, the LRBT looks like .37 hull points stripped, compared to the exterminator's .50.

S8 ordinance will have a 2/3 chance to strip a hull point, since you have a 1 in 3 chance with 2 dice. That's 0.66 vs the exterminator's 0.5, so the russ is superior for stripping hull points.

kestril wrote: 4 models hit, wounds on a 2+, is 4 wounds that force a 5+ save instead of a 3+. Autocannon hits 3 models, wounds on a 2+ and allows them to save on a 3+.

You're assuming that the russ hits with every shot. It does not. Furthermore, a russ is a bit better than an exterminator here. Let's look at two turns of firing against 4+ cover. The russ hits once, for 4 models hit, and the exterminator hits 6 times.

4 hits times 5/6ths wounds times 2/3ds makes through cover = 1.68 dead marines.
6 hits times 5/6ths wounds times 1/3rd makes through armor = 1.68 dead marines.

The only time the battlecannon is better against this ONE target type is when we're talking about 5+ cover, and it only really takes off if we're talking about 6+ cover or worse.

Or, marines in the open.

kestril wrote:If the template misses, you still may clip two or three models due to the larger footprint of the spread-out squad, so I'd say the average per round would be 3, same as the autocannon, but one str higher, and one AP lower.

But what do you base that number on?

If we're talking about bunched up squads, a scatter of even a short distance will miss them entirely. If we're talking about units spread out in a line, any scatter that isn't parallel to the line is likewise going to miss entirely. Infantry in a circle shape are practically impossible to get hits on with a scatter.

The scenario you're playing out seems to be one in which space marines are in a 2" lattice that makes up a perfect filled-in circle, and you shoot at the middle. I've never actually seen that before.

Griddlelol wrote:the sheer superiority of the Vulture puts me off Punishers.

Sure, then perhaps you might want to consider your tanks to be anti-tank? I mean, a lascannon is a pretty good deal for a hull weapon for a russ, and 30 points for TWO multimeltas on a AV14 chassis is a steal, in my opinion. For lighter stuff, the exterminator is okay, but for everything, it might be time to unpack the vanquishers.

I'm starting to think that the old addage of troops kill tanks, tanks kill troops may not be quite as true as it used to be.

BryllCream wrote:S8 ordinance will have a 2/3 chance to strip a hull point, since you have a 1 in 3 chance with 2 dice. That's 0.66 vs the exterminator's 0.5, so the russ is superior for stripping hull points.

Firstly, it's not 2/3ds, it's 20 36ths. It's .55, not .66.

Secondly, the russ still has to hit its target, which only happens 2/3ds of the time (being generous), even with the new blast template rules.

.666 * .555 = .369

Meanwhile, for the exterminator, it's

3 * .166 = .5

There's no way to make that any clearer.

It's cool that the new russ kits have exterminator and vanquisher in the same box. I'll definitely give them both a go once I get my pay check. I'm sure I can find something to look enough like Pask for people to know who it's meant to be...

 BryllCream wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

BryllCream wrote:A Russ's battle cannon will take a hull point from AV 13 2/3 of the time.

You're right, I did goof the math, the LRBT looks like .37 hull points stripped, compared to the exterminator's .50.

S8 ordinance will have a 2/3 chance to strip a hull point, since you have a 1 in 3 chance with 2 dice. That's 0.66 vs the exterminator's 0.5, so the russ is superior for stripping hull points.

No, that is not how it works, because you ignore the 2nd die when you get a result on the first hit. When you roll 2d6 and get two glance results with your ordnance weapon, it's still only one glance. You're treating it like firing two separate S8 weapons, which is not what happens. So you'll strip a hull point 55% of the time.

As much as I dislike the exterminator, the LRBT is a miserably inefficient anti-tank platform. And it's really not a very good anti-infantry weapon, either.

Corollax wrote:
You should check the "Shooting With Vehicles", page 71. In particular, view the "Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons" subheading.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!

I think that the LRBT has a very useful role that as far as I can see hasn't been touched on yet in this thread.

The LRBT totally denies marines any space on the board that is not going to grant them a cover save, sometimes keeping an enemy cowering in a fox hole is exactly what is needed to claim victory.

If you've got even one BC then you'll be able to smash any MEQ that date to leave whatever they're hiding behind, this can give you a lot of room to work with because if the marine player wants to move his units around to counter yours then those marines are going to die.

In other words, it has a lot of potential as an area denial unit that is very durable and cheap, not to mention the fact that it can make very good use of cover itself with a camo net.

Ferrum wrote:The LRBT totally denies marines any space on the board that is not going to grant them a cover save, sometimes keeping an enemy cowering in a fox hole is exactly what is needed to claim victory.

Firstly, if your opponent isn't willing to risk his troops in order to do what it takes to win, then you don't need battlecannons to beat him.

Secondly, if you're talking about marines in the open against battlecannons, I think it's fair to assume more dispersal than in cover. In this case, we're talking about three hits per hit, which means 1.5 marines hit per turn for 1.26 dead marines. The exterminator throws down 3 hits for .84. Yeah, the battlecannon is better, certainly, but for both tanks we're talking about roughly one dead marine per turn. While that kind of low damage output might be more excusable for an autocannon, it really isn't for a battlecannon.

So what we're talking about is someone who is willing to let you have an objective, rather than risking a half a marine extra dead per turn.

Which means it only applies to people against whom psychological tricks work, namely, new players.

 Ferrum wrote:

The LRBT totally denies marines any space on the board that is not going to grant them a cover save, sometimes keeping an enemy cowering in a fox hole is exactly what is needed to claim victory.

If losing 3 Marines is going to lose me the game (which is all you'll possibly hit with a Battle Cannon), I've done something wrong by having only 3 Marines. You haven't done something right by having a Battle Cannon.

i got it! buy a LRBT to kill 3 marines a turn! that is what the math says. Or buy the autocannons to shoot something that may not be 3 marines!

 cormadepanda wrote:
i got it! buy a LRBT to kill 3 marines a turn! that is what the math says. Or buy the autocannons to shoot something that may not be 3 marines!

That's pretty much all this is about. I say screw the exterminator and LRBT, get a demolisher. That thing is sweet.

Edit: Vanquishers and Executioners are pretty cool too. A long range melta shot on a tough chassis? And can fire lascannons too?! Yes please! And of course, more plasma means more dead terminators.

 Ailaros wrote:

The LRBT is utter junk,

Sorry A-man, but just because you type it, doesn't make it so. I agree that it's not perfect
and may have it's upside/downside verses other variants, but you can't totally dismiss it. Or,
I guess you can, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't give it a go. I got sick to death of
reading on here how bad the Demolisher was by some people in 5th , and never had all the
same "luck" as those that hated it I guess.

To the OP, I'd simply say "yes, it is worth it.".

 alarmingrick wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

The LRBT is utter junk,

Sorry A-man, but just because you type it, doesn't make it so. I agree that it's not perfect
and may have it's upside/downside verses other variants, but you can't totally dismiss it. Or,
I guess you can, but that doesn't mean the OP shouldn't give it a go. I got sick to death of
reading on here how bad the Demolisher was by some people in 5th , and never had all the
same "luck" as those that hated it I guess.

To the OP, I'd simply say "yes, it is worth it.".

I second this notion.