There are those who say the Emperor is replaceable and the concept of the 'God-Emperor' is more valuable than the man himself, and that the Inquisition/High Lords of Terra would seek to prevent his return/reincarnation/resurrection/transcendence to preserve their power and the status quo. If so, then who are the liars now? The Forces of Chaos, those who fight against the 'False Emperor', or the Imperium itself?
You mean is the survival of the human species (and every other sentient species in the galaxy) worth lying about the nature of Chaos, beings that wish to enslave and devour the galaxy, to consume the souls of the living?
Yes, absolutely.
Although could you clarify as to what 'lie' you're referring to?
Were you not a fan of this novel-based "Imperial Truth" idea, which in itself was a lie as well - created and promoted by the Emperor?
To be honest, the poll sounds a bit ... weird, even resentful. What exactly is it you wish to achieve? If this is supposed to be a debate on Imperial morals and ethics, then I would point out that the survival of mankind should be pretty high up on the agenda, from an egoistic evolutionary perspective. Is mankind as a whole worth saving? Now that's a more interesting question, but one that has little to do with the Imperium of Man. The Imperium is, in the end, little more than an accumulation of humanity's most harmful fears and desires. The darker sides of man's psyche made manifest. I thought this almost refreshingly dystopian image is why we like this setting.
Also, the Forces of Chaos do not fight against a lie, or for any actual ideals of their own. The Forces of Chaos fight because to fight it is their desire, their raison d'etre, regardless of the reasons that may have compelled an individual to have once joined them.
Admiral Valerian wrote: Actually they do. Is the Imperium worth saving when it seeks to uphold a lie whereas the Forces of Chaos paradoxically fight that lie?
Whether the God-Emperor exists as the divine entity He is believed to be is irrelevant. The Forces of Chaos, fighting this "False Emperor", are being lead along by malign influences of wholly alien, inhuman intelligences. They're not so much fighting the Imperium because of this possible lie, but simply using that as a strawman argument to win others to their cause. You think Nurgle or Slaanesh give a feth if the Emperor is still alive?
That said, yes, the Imperium is worth saving. The alternative is annihilation.
Although could you clarify as to what 'lie' you're referring to?
The 'God-Emperor' and his worship are lies in themselves. The Emperor proscribed religion, and even went so far as to personally oversee the destruction of the last church on Ancient Terra, to chastise his own son, and even burn a whole city down to enforce this directive. Heck, even on the eve of the Siege of Terra, the Imperial Administration was directing Imperial forces to suppress Emperor-worshipers on Ancient Terra itself (The Outcast Dead).
Lynata wrote: Were you not a fan of this novel-based "Imperial Truth" idea, which in itself was a lie as well - created and promoted by the Emperor?
Technically, it was correct. The Powers of Chaos and Daemons are just mortal titles. They're not really gods or demons, just energy-based xenos created from mortals' subconscious.
To be honest, the poll sounds a bit ... weird, even resentful. What exactly is it you wish to achieve?
Basically is the Imperium even worth saving when it's reached the point that it's no better than it's enemies?
Admiral Valerian wrote: Actually they do. Is the Imperium worth saving when it seeks to uphold a lie whereas the Forces of Chaos paradoxically fight that lie?
Whether the God-Emperor exists as the divine entity He is believed to be is irrelevant. The Forces of Chaos, fighting this "False Emperor", are being lead along by malign influences of wholly alien, inhuman intelligences. They're not so much fighting the Imperium because of this possible lie, but simply using that as a strawman argument to win others to their cause. You think Nurgle or Slaanesh give a feth if the Emperor is still alive?
That said, yes, the Imperium is worth saving. The alternative is annihilation.
Not when it goes against everything the Emperor believed in.
Solomon Voss wrote: I have seen the future, and it is dead.
I think it's worth it, I mean it's only 3 syllables and takes like a second to say. I mean it doesn't take much effort so yeah I think it's definitely worth it.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Technically, it was correct. The Powers of Chaos and Daemons are just mortal titles. They're not really gods or demons, just energy-based xenos created from mortals' subconscious.
Yes, but they do not go away just because you stop believing in them. The creatures of the Warp draw their power from emotions, memories, thoughts.
The only way to close this connection permanently would be to kill or lobotomise everyone.
So what this hypothetical Imperial Truth actually is can be compared to the US "duck and cover" propaganda downplaying the results of a nuclear attack.
Or, no, even better: It'd be as if the US government would have claimed that Soviet Russia does not exist.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Basically is the Imperium even worth saving when it's reached the point that it's no better than it's enemies?
Based on what? Because both sides tell lies to their respective people?
Politicians are lying to us right now - does that mean our current nations are not worth saving?
This goes back to my question regarding humanity as a whole, though.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Not when it goes against everything the Emperor believed in.
I'd say that, first and foremost, the Emperor believed in the survival of humanity.
Else he would not have come up with that lie, would he?
The 'God-Emperor' and his worship are lies in themselves. The Emperor proscribed religion, and even went so far as to personally oversee the destruction of the last church on Ancient Terra, to chastise his own son, and even burn a whole city down to enforce this directive. Heck, even on the eve of the Siege of Terra, the Imperial Administration was directing Imperial forces to suppress Emperor-worshipers on Ancient Terra itself (The Outcast Dead).
Lynata wrote: Were you not a fan of this novel-based "Imperial Truth" idea, which in itself was a lie as well - created and promoted by the Emperor?
Technically, it was correct. The Powers of Chaos and Daemons are just mortal titles. They're not really gods or demons, just energy-based xenos created from mortals' subconscious.
Alright so now we're onto what exactly makes a god a god. Does something merely have to be worshiped as such? By such criteria the emperor is a god, as are the Chaos pantheon. Do gods have to have some special powers? Again the Emperor and the Ruinous powers fulfill that criteria.
In terms of how gods are described and represented in the 40k setting the Chaos gods and the Eldar gods are certainly 'gods'. You could then make a strong case for the Emperor. He has after all been worshiped by trillions of people for 10,000 years. That's surely going to have some effect, some echo or reflection in the warp (which is where we getthe Star Child theory from).
Still if the belief in a fake divinity is one of the things keeping the Imperium going then absolutely is it worth continuing.
That doesn't mean that the belief in the God-Emperor did not either deify his psychic presence, or create an entirely new Warp God out of this pool of uncounted trillions of devoted worshipers, anchored around Terra by the prayers and beliefs of collective humanity. In this, the forces of Chaos are simply reinforcing Him, striving as they do to reach Terra.
There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.
Yes, we know that the Emperor, the man, disliked religion. He even attempted to stamp it out. This doesn't mean that he was successful, or even correct, in his theory. As to his own deification? Irony's a b**ch.
The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.
EDIT: Horrifying thought: what if the God-Emperor and the Emperor are two separate beings, with the former being a slumbering god ala Slaanesh/Ynnead created by the Imperium's misguided faith while the latter is the dying psyker on the Golden Throne? And the moment the latter dies, the former 'awakes' ala Fall of the Eldar?
There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.
I wouldn't go that far. These things can certainly have other explanations. If something strange happens it does not mean God-Emperor did it, it means something strange happened and something caused it.
There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.
I wouldn't go that far. These things can certainly have other explanations. If something strange happens it does not mean God-Emperor did it, it means something strange happened and something caused it.
Living Saints?
Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?
People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?
Admiral Valerian wrote:The Emperor hated religion though. As I recall, he practically spat on the word 'priest' during the destruction of the last church.
Not from how I recall the story - if such an event actually happened.
That aside, do you really believe that the Emperor would regard the eradication of religion as more important than mankind's survival?
In essence, is it better for all humans to die than survival under the influence of a most likely temporary faith - which, in the current age of the Imperium, acts as a guarantor for stability?
It really sounds like you're dragging RL concerns about religion into a discussion about the setting. I'm an atheist myself, but I can only suggest to "cut loose" the meta-thinking. Don't you enjoy the setting for what it is? Don't you like Grimdark? What do you actually see in 40k that compels you to invest so much time and emotion into the hobby, including this forum?
Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: Horrifying thought: what if the God-Emperor and the Emperor are two separate beings, with the former being a slumbering god ala Slaanesh/Ynnead created by the Imperium's misguided faith while the latter is the dying psyker on the Golden Throne? And the moment the latter dies, the former 'awakes' ala Fall of the Eldar?
Possible. It'd certainly fit into my theory regarding what the Living Saints are.
That being said, it is very hard to speculate on the nature of this hypothetical new entity, or how its awakening would affect humanity. Slaanesh is an example, not the rule.
Psienesis wrote:Living Saints?
Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?
People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?
Granted, all of this could well be explained as psychic phenomena, technology, or simply myth and legend... or hallucination.
There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.
I wouldn't go that far. These things can certainly have other explanations. If something strange happens it does not mean God-Emperor did it, it means something strange happened and something caused it.
Living Saints?
The Warp just reacting to their and the people around them faith?
Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?
What? I thought that bolter shell in his armor just failed to detonate.
People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?
Are you sure? Behind the Throne is a massive portal after all. And elsewhere in the complex tens of thousands of psykers are being bled of their essence to power the Astronomican.
Admiral Valerian wrote:The Emperor hated religion though. As I recall, he practically spat on the word 'priest' during the destruction of the last church.
Not from how I recall the story - if such an event actually happened.
That aside, do you really believe that the Emperor would regard the eradication of religion as more important than mankind's survival? In essence, is it better for all humans to die than survival under the influence of a most likely temporary faith - which, in the current age of the Imperium, acts as a guarantor for stability?
Yes. Because he wanted what was best for Humanity. And the current iteration of the Imperium is definitely not the best.
Don't you like Grimdark? What do you actually see in 40k that compels you to invest so much time and emotion into the hobby, including this forum?
The Imperial Navy. The glories of the Great Crusade.
Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: Horrifying thought: what if the God-Emperor and the Emperor are two separate beings, with the former being a slumbering god ala Slaanesh/Ynnead created by the Imperium's misguided faith while the latter is the dying psyker on the Golden Throne? And the moment the latter dies, the former 'awakes' ala Fall of the Eldar?
Possible. It'd certainly fit into my theory regarding what the Living Saints are. That being said, it is very hard to speculate on the nature of this hypothetical new entity, or how its awakening would affect humanity. Slaanesh is an example, not the rule.
Psienesis wrote: Bah, had my Saints confused. Saint Drusus arose from his assassination attempt... although Macharius left a trail of miracles in his wake.
Yes...and if someone not of high rank did something similar, the authorities would come crashing down on him/her as a witch.
They could be just strong willed crazy people. Like Yarrick. Or if they actually display blatantly supernatural powers (which I don't think they do, though) they could be possessed by a daemon.
Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?
He is actually just seriously wounded, people think he is dead but he recovers. These things happen. Or if he was truly miraculously recovered this does not prove it was Emperor who caused it.
People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?
People hear voices in their heads all the time. This does not prove that they're just not crazy/imagining it/lying. Also, it could be any half decent telepath nearby faking the Emperor's voice in their heads.
Admiral Valerian wrote:Yes. Because he wanted what was best for Humanity. And the current iteration of the Imperium is definitely not the best.
Wow, that's harsh.
Remember: Any iteration can change some day. Genocide is forever.
Admiral Valerian wrote:The Imperial Navy. The glories of the Great Crusade.
Okay, I'll respect that.
I'll hope you come around in time, though.
Admiral Valerian wrote:That is not good at all.
Depends. If such a Warp entity would act similar to the Living Saints ... why wouldn't it be good? It would be as if the Emperor Himself would have risen from the dead. Remember, these creatures don't have a mind of their own - they are an accumulation of the emotions and thoughts they absorbed from whatever populace fed their "birth". You might actually get a guy in golden armour rising from the throne and go on a new Great Crusade, burning a path through the entire Imperium right towards the Eye of Terra, intent on forcing a final confrontation between "good and evil" and slaying the Chaos Gods themselves.
Just a random thought, mind you. I could see lots of possible outcomes - some good, some not so good, some apocalyptic.
purplefood wrote: Is it worth lying to save trillions and trillions of people?
Yes.
Congratulations, you have earned the Liar God's favor. Tzeentch smiles even as the Emperor mourns
The Emperor is a necessary lie to keep Humanity united. Even with it there are many planets who try to leave the Imperium.
Those who do are conquered by other races and usually the human inhabitants are enslaved or murdered.
Chaos isn't some kind of liberating force. They aren't trying to free people.
Chaos is far more evil than the Imperium if only because the Imperium is the lesser evil.
Admiral Valerian wrote: The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.
So what?
What do you mean so what? It's treason to worship the Emperor by his own decree.
So what? This is irrelevant to whether the Imperium is worth saving or not.
If by saving the Imperium the Emperor still sits on the Golden Throne and that Astronomicon keeps on shining, then Chaos doesn't run rampant with Bloodletters mounting women and children on their spits, Plaguebearers bringing back the Bubonic Plague, Daemonettes having their way with Eldar, and Tzeentch stealing everyone's car keys. The Eldar get special mention because nothing is making Chaos stop with plunging mankind into infernal darkness and not everyone else.
I will just write this quote from the rulebook: "Without the protection of the Imperium, mankind would fall prey to the countless perils that threaten it."
Is it Imperium good as it is now - that's debatable as there are many thing that question it like genocide of species like Orks and Tyranids, sending million of Guardsmen to death to protect billions of people, idiot leaders, power hungry factions etc... But the fact remains - without the Imperium Human race would go extinct, or even worse - used as food source for Daemons and Chaos Gods until entire race is wiped out. It's irony that without the Imperium all other galactic races would go extinct as well as entire galaxy would be one giant Eye of Terror and not even the Orks with their numbers or Necrons with their technology would be able to stand against creatures who can warp reality around them as they wish, oh and cannot die.
Mankind really has 3 choices in 41'st millennium:
-Stand together in the Imperium.
-Live under Tau regime.
-DIe out.
And like one man said: "Even living under Human fascist regime is much better then living under alien fascist regime." To tell you the truth Human can never live under the Tau because Humans are driven to be free and to rule themselves. As Tau ask for obedience and the right to control every aspect of political power I doubt that Humans living under Tau would suffer to live like that for long - even if it's in their best interest ( I mean just look at our own history, How many people wanted to get independence even if they live in societies that were somewhat fair and give them a lot of control. Even in USA, where most of the people have many rights and big political freedom there are still many individuals who want independence for some of US states like California and Texas - and they are living in land of plenty and land where you can became anything ) .
As far as I am concerned Humanity best hope in 41'st millennium is still the Imperium of Mankind, even if it's in a state like that.
... to be fair, that is because many Americans are fething stupid. This may also hold true in the Imperium, but, I dunno, I live in America, not the Imperium.
I'm going to say the Imperium is not worth saving, due to the slight chance that in its death throes it might cough up a new Chaos god a la Slaanesh by the Eldar.
I find the title question of this poll very misleading. I think the initial post as well as the poll itself could have been a little clearer. Generally speaking, it always pays to be as explicit as possible. This isn't an attack, and it's not a judgement. I'm just mentioning that I felt like the initial post was unclear, and I had to read the entire thread to this point before I could understand what we were being asked. Dakka allows all kinds of users. Unfortunately, some of us are a little slower on the uptake than others and need a little help understanding complex issues.
In any event, going forward, of course I think the Imperium is worth saving. I think that the forces who "fight against the lies" throw up the whole 'You're Emperor isn't a god and never was' thing as a justification. It's like one of those African warlords who claims he's a freedom fighter against a despot. Yes, technically the leader of the country is a despot, but the warlord wouldn't stop the rapes and massacres even if the despot disappeared tomorrow. The forces of Chaos fight against the Imperium because they're depraved, sadistic monsters, motivated only by their own cruel and perverse desires. Even if the High Lords of Terra surrendered to them, they would still rape, kill, and torture their way across the galaxy, because they like it.
The Imperium may have a lot of corruption within the higher ranks, but like almost all actual societies, it's built on the backs of regular old people, who aren't really guilty of any great evil; instead, they're just trying to make it day-to-day. The irony that you can say the same thing about some (but not all) of the Chaos legions is not lost on me. (I think that the people who lived on the Echo of Damnation were worth saving too. They, too, were just trying to get by, even though the fruits of their labors were used by afforementioned depraved monsters to spread fear and pain across the galaxy.)
That's just my personal opinion, of course, so others may not agree, and that's fine.
DarthMarko wrote: And what is that ? False worshiping ? Slow death trough stagnation ? Fanatics ? They need that to survive ? *slow clap'
The "false worship" isn't really even false at this point. The Emperor basically set himself up to be a god, even if you can argue he did so unintentionally. But since his incarceration in the Golden Throne, he has worked with the Ecclesiarchy as humanity's best hope to resist Chaos. As for fanatics, yes, they are needed. Fanatics are wonderful tools to use against chaos. As for slow death, the Imperium faces far greater threats in "modern" eras than the Great Crusade did, and yet it's survived for far longer without being torn apart.
DarthMarko wrote: And what is that ? False worshiping ? Slow death trough stagnation ? Fanatics ? They need that to survive ? *slow clap'
The "false worship" isn't really even false at this point. The Emperor basically set himself up to be a god, even if you can argue he did so unintentionally. But since his incarceration in the Golden Throne, he has worked with the Ecclesiarchy as humanity's best hope to resist Chaos. As for fanatics, yes, they are needed. Fanatics are wonderful tools to use against chaos. As for slow death, the Imperium faces far greater threats in "modern" eras than the Great Crusade did, and yet it's survived for far longer without being torn apart.
I consider you as very intelligent person (judging by your prev posts), but I can't understand how can you simplify this to this level...
Now tell me, in the grimdark, do you honestly belive all that ? How is slow death better then a quick one ? What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
I' mean I do not exclude Emperor being a God, but also I know his way from heresy which pretty much "contradicts" IoM40k as a whole...
So if Empy wakes it would be like - check's the window, sees the fantics, goes back to bed...
With the Golden Throne failing, it's only a matter of time. The Terran portal will open, and Terra will be overrun by Daemons. The Void Dragon's prison will collapse, and all life on Mars will be consumed before the Dragon feeds on Sol and seals the fate of the Terran solar system. Without the Astronomican, the Imperium will crumble.
Now, if only the bureaucrats had used their heads immediately after the Horus Heresy and had focused on coming up with a solution to the Emperor's confinement as opposed to setting up a stagnant and ultimately self-destructive status quo, then we wouldn't have reached this point.
Funny thing is "Magnus" who knows psykic manifestations more then anyone in the imperium - still doesn't consider chaos gods as "Gods" even after he realizes their power...
IMHO until they are omnipotent - they are just abominations who need to be purged (which is pretty imposible) or at least weakened from the "inside of society"...
Emp? Mightiest psyker in the galaxy ? Yes! God ? Depends what the term god means for you...
DarthMarko wrote: Now tell me, in the grimdark, do you honestly belive all that ? How is slow death better then a quick one ? What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
They aren't.
Chaos is inherently oppressive to the point that even the Imperium is favorable in comparison.
Well the Inquisition and High Lords can go themselves, the templars will continue their crusade for the great Emperor and the Imperium shall become legend once more
Good luck to them. They're all gonna die, abandoned by their 'god'. Or worse: the Emperor dies, and the God-Emperor awakes ala Fall of the Eldar, and it's an atomic wedgie for the galaxy. Again.
Funny thing is "Magnus" who knows psykic manifestations more then anyone in the imperium - still doesn't consider chaos gods as "Gods" even after he realizes their power...
Even worse is the fact that everything Magnus and the Thousand Sons feared about the Imperium's future should it close itself to the potential power of knowledge has come true. I get the feeling Inquisitor Valeria would get along well with pre-Heresy Magnus and his legion.
On another note, I just noticed: Inquisitor Valeria has the feminine form of my name
DarthMarko wrote: Now tell me, in the grimdark, do you honestly belive all that ? How is slow death better then a quick one ? What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
They aren't.
Chaos is inherently oppressive to the point that even the Imperium is favorable in comparison.
Well, maybe not literary...but they are fueling chaos more then they did 10 000 years ago and every year they push the throttle a bit more....Ofc, until line which divides them goes *puf * ...
DarthMarko wrote: Well, maybe not literary...but they are fueling chaos
The Warp != Chaos.
"Chaos" is just the so-called gods of the warp and their various slaves/demons/etc. The Warp, or Empyrean / the Immaterium, is inherently connected to the Materium, and vice versa. Thus, every living being in the material world "fuels" the Immaterium as a matter of course. Chaos feeds off of excessive negative emotions-- the excessive part is the key word here Slaanesh isn't fueled by a pair of lovers making love to one another. Khorne isn't fueled by a papercut. Nurgle isn't fueled by someone having an undercooked steak or catching a mild cough. Tzeentch isn't fueled by minor changes or people having a daily planner.
DarthMarko wrote: Well, maybe not literary...but they are fueling chaos
The Warp != Chaos.
"Chaos" is just the so-called gods of the warp and their various slaves/demons/etc. The Warp, or Empyrean / the Immaterium, is inherently connected to the Materium, and vice versa. Thus, every living being in the material world "fuels" the Immaterium as a matter of course. Chaos feeds off of excessive negative emotions-- the excessive part is the key word here Slaanesh isn't fueled by a pair of lovers making love to one another. Khorne isn't fueled by a papercut. Nurgle isn't fueled by someone having an undercooked steak or catching a mild cough. Tzeentch isn't fueled by minor changes or people having a daily planner.
Who said anything about the warp ? I said chaos....Khorne is fueled by unstopping wars, Nurgle by death and diseases, Tzeenchy by shify governors (:-), Slaneesh by hedonism - which IoM has plenty to offer....
DarthMarko wrote: What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
Actually this statement is not true if we take all fluff into account, it turns out that majority of Imperial citizens live a decent life - the one you woudl expect fro m20'th or 21'st century Human.
The only difference would be planet where they live, same like Earth today: a men living in US or Europe will have more better live then someone living in let's say some African state that is in war or North Korea.
Imperium has 3 very simple rules for each planet: pay tax, venerate the Emperor, obey the Imperial law.
You can do pretty much everything else and they will not bother you because of that, even we wouldn't fell being under oppression if we had Imperium to rule over us. On some planets you can even vote to choose planetary Governour.
The thing they say about the Imperium - some of it is true but most is over the top and thus not true - like "There is only war quote" when majority of Imperial worlds ( like 80 - 90% ) is not in any kind of warfare at all.
DarthMarko wrote: What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
Actually this statement is not true if we take all fluff into account, it turns out that majority of Imperial citizens live a decent life - the one you woudl expect fro m20'th or 21'st century Human.
The only difference would be planet where they live, same like Earth today: a men living in US or Europe will have more better live then someone living in let's say some African state that is in war or North Korea.
Imperium has 3 very simple rules for each planet: pay tax, venerate the Emperor, obey the Imperial law.
You can do pretty much everything else and they will not bother you because of that, even we wouldn't fell being under oppression if we had Imperium to rule over us. On some planets you can even vote to choose planetary Governour.
The thing they say about the Imperium - some of it is true but most is over the top and thus not true - like "There is only war quote" when majority of Imperial worlds ( like 80 - 90% ) is not in any kind of warfare at all.
I agree. The codices clearly over-exaggerate the situation.
Melissia wrote: As bad as the Imperium is, Chaos is worse in every way.
When it's pissed off, sure, but all the time, I don't know. There are stable chaos worlds out there that seem not that different from an Imperial world. Look at Davin, Nurth, Laer, Istvann, Cadia. It's pretty obvious that some of the Planets where the Primarchs were bought up as well were places where Chaos had influence. There might not be many about now sure, but during the Great Crusade I think there would have been. Chaos went all skulls, death and spiky when things didn't start to go its way. Do worlds that fall to Chaos go this way because of Chaos or because of what the follower thinks their masters want.
When there's a Daemon invasion things do get nasty, because you have the warp spilling out every where and making things bendy.
I think one of the Ecclesiarchys big issues is that Chaos can be another choice for you and it can work to a degree, if it hasn't gone bendy for your world. Obviously the Chaos Gods aren't the only way to go if you succeed from the Imperium, you have the Tau for example.
Funny thing is "Magnus" who knows psykic manifestations more then anyone in the imperium - still doesn't consider chaos gods as "Gods" even after he realizes their power...
Is this before or after Magnus throws his lot in with them?
DarthMarko wrote: What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
Actually this statement is not true if we take all fluff into account, it turns out that majority of Imperial citizens live a decent life - the one you woudl expect fro m20'th or 21'st century Human.
The only difference would be planet where they live, same like Earth today: a men living in US or Europe will have more better live then someone living in let's say some African state that is in war or North Korea.
Imperium has 3 very simple rules for each planet: pay tax, venerate the Emperor, obey the Imperial law.
You can do pretty much everything else and they will not bother you because of that, even we wouldn't fell being under oppression if we had Imperium to rule over us. On some planets you can even vote to choose planetary Governour.
The thing they say about the Imperium - some of it is true but most is over the top and thus not true - like "There is only war quote" when majority of Imperial worlds ( like 80 - 90% ) is not in any kind of warfare at all.
I think people from the hive worlds would disagree with you....I conisder only Ultramar as somehow acceptable and maybe some agri-worlds...
But you have a point in comparing 21century to a grimdark 40k - there are better places and there are hell places.....
Maybe I'm a little too much influenced by Kal Jericho comics....
I think people from the hive worlds would disagree with you....
They wouldn't, imagine a Hive World like New York city.
You have part where the most rich and stature family lives, you have part where normal people live and you have part where poor people live - you even have sewers where homeless people are living. Same thing is with Hive cities.
OP's question is misleading at least. The setting is constructed in a way that makes a massive political organisation a necessity in order to support the vast forces that keep the other, equally massive powers at bay. The question should be "can the moral issues of the imperium be justified" or maybe "can there be an alternative to the imperium, that is morally more justified?" The question as it is doubts the right of mankind to survive in 40k.
I think people from the hive worlds would disagree with you....
They wouldn't, imagine a Hive World like New York city.
You have part where the most rich and stature family lives, you have part where normal people live and you have part where poor people live - you even have sewers where homeless people are living. Same thing is with Hive cities.
NYC is a pretty bad comparison. Hive Cities are unimaginably impoverished and dangerous at their lowest levels. Nothing like NYC or any American city for that matter.
Places in India might begin to correlate but even that is a stretch given the grimdarkness of 40k.
Melissia wrote: As bad as the Imperium is, Chaos is worse in every way.
When it's pissed off, sure, but all the time, I don't know.
Then pay attention to the background some more.
Khorne demands blood sacrifice, preferably HUMAN blood sacrifice, and so the common person is nothing more than a potential victim to Khornate cultists, where at least the Imperium is happy to just let them live out their lives working in peace.
Nurgle spreads filth and disease, rotting society, people, buildings, etc from within as a matter of course, letting people suffer in despair. People are made to suffer, shrivel up, and die so that the cultists can watch the bacteria and viruses that their lords loves so much flourish in their foetid corpses.
Slaanesh demands excess, and the suffering of the common person will be excessive indeed. Excessive torture, sex slavery, servitude and malnourishment all so that the high-ranking cultists can be more and more excessive in their desire for pleasure.
Tzeentch demands change, plans, plots, and mutation-- and cares not what happens as a result. Constant civil war, assassinations, coups, rebellions, purges. Tzeentchian cultists will never let the common person live in peace, because that would be anathema to Tzeentch.
Chaos is inherently oppressive, even by Imperial standards. Only those at the top benefit from Chaos worship, where at least there's SOME benefit by those at the bottom for being in the Imperium.
Melissia wrote: As bad as the Imperium is, Chaos is worse in every way.
When it's pissed off, sure, but all the time, I don't know.
Then pay attention to the background some more.
Khorne demands blood sacrifice, preferably HUMAN blood sacrifice, and so the common person is nothing more than a potential victim to Khornate cultists, where at least the Imperium is happy to just let them live out their lives working in peace.
Nurgle spreads filth and disease, rotting society, people, buildings, etc from within as a matter of course, letting people suffer in despair. People are made to suffer, shrivel up, and die so that the cultists can watch the bacteria and viruses that their lords loves so much flourish in their foetid corpses.
Slaanesh demands excess, and the suffering of the common person will be excessive indeed. Excessive torture, sex slavery, servitude and malnourishment all so that the high-ranking cultists can be more and more excessive in their desire for pleasure.
Tzeentch demands change, plans, plots, and mutation-- and cares not what happens as a result. Constant civil war, assassinations, coups, rebellions, purges. Tzeentchian cultists will never let the common person live in peace, because that would be anathema to Tzeentch.
Chaos is inherently oppressive, even by Imperial standards. Only those at the top benefit from Chaos worship, where at least there's SOME benefit by those at the bottom for being in the Imperium.
So you ignore what references I give and go off on one, good one Mel.
No, and if you're going to try to claim I'm a liar, then this discussion is done. I'm not going to participate in that kind of a discussion.
You insinuated that I didn't read the back ground and conveniently left off the part of my post where I provided examples of Chaos worlds with a relatively normal existence and then you went off on your spiel about that being wrong. That's the sort of discussion I won't have, where someone chooses to ignore the evidence placed in front of them to make themselves look good.
I stated that you didn't pay attention to the horrors that Chaos committed and gave examples of such. You haven't actually given an example of a chaos-worshipping world that WASN'T a horrible place for the common person to live. None of those places you listed were at all nice places to live.
Everything I stated above is EXACTLY what Chaos demands from its followers.
DarthMarko wrote:How is slow death better then a quick one ?
You mean if nothingness is better than misery? That's a very philosophical question...
By all rights, one could argue that humanity should disappear and make room for the Tau. /heresy
However, there is always that oh so faint glimmer of hope on the horizon that things might just get better some time in the future. That's an important part of the setting's description, too, I think.
Admiral Valerian wrote:I agree. The codices clearly over-exaggerate the situation.
And this assessment is based on ... personal preferences?
Admiral Valerian wrote:Now, if only the bureaucrats had used their heads immediately after the Horus Heresy and had focused on coming up with a solution to the Emperor's confinement as opposed to setting up a stagnant and ultimately self-destructive status quo, then we wouldn't have reached this point.
I stated that you didn't pay attention to the horrors that Chaos committed and gave examples of such. You haven't actually given an example of a chaos-worshipping world that WASN'T a horrible place for the common person to live. None of those places you listed were at all nice places to live.
The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life. The Cadians knew about Chaos and embraced it, the Nurthene had a stable culture as did the Davinites, Istvann the same, 63 19 had the element that worshiped Samus. All are your pretty standard human worlds, some advanced some not.
Pilau Rice wrote: The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life. The Cadians knew about Chaos and embraced it, the Nurthene had a stable culture as did the Davinites, Istvann the same, 63 19 had the element that worshiped Samus. All are your pretty standard human worlds, some advanced some not.
And none of them were pleasant places to live for the common populace, because Chaos demanded that they do horrible horrible things.
Pilau Rice wrote: Do you know the specifics of every way that Chaos wants it's followers to act on worship, there are varying degrees on how to get blood, pleasure, etc
No there aren't. Slaanesh, for example, is not the god of pleasure. S/he's the god of EXCESS. Everything done in Slaanesh' name must be done in excess. Khorne demands that the skulls of the humans sacrificed in his name be piled up. Nurgle spreads disease and suffering and despair because that is what he is. Tzeentch only blesses those who plot and scheme, who backstab and betray.
Pilau Rice wrote:There might not be many about now sure, but during the Great Crusade I think there would have been. Chaos went all skulls, death and spiky when things didn't start to go its way. Do worlds that fall to Chaos go this way because of Chaos or because of what the follower thinks their masters want.
I think that, whilst you have a point, you neglect the influence of the human spirit.
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Warp is not inherently evil - it is merely a mirror that calls into reality what people hide in the deepest depths of their mind.
In essence, Man needs the Imperium to control its own ambitions and emotions. The Warp or Chaos offer freedom - but freedom that Man is not able to cope with yet.
And it's not just a human issue. Look at the connection between Slaanesh and the Eldar.
Have you seen the movie "Sphere"? The Warp is kinda like that.
Plus, I don't think we actually know that much about "untouched" Chaos worlds. What we do hear about is numerous feral cults with blood worship and human sacrifice etc, though.
Pilau Rice wrote: Do you know the specifics of every way that Chaos wants it's followers to act on worship, there are varying degrees on how to get blood, pleasure, etc
No there aren't. Slaanesh, for example, is not the god of pleasure. S/he's the god of EXCESS. Everything done in Slaanesh' name must be done in excess.
And Khorne is not just the god of blood is he, I didn't think I would need to list out every aspect of each particular god for you
Pilau Rice wrote:There might not be many about now sure, but during the Great Crusade I think there would have been. Chaos went all skulls, death and spiky when things didn't start to go its way. Do worlds that fall to Chaos go this way because of Chaos or because of what the follower thinks their masters want.
I think that, whilst you have a point, you neglect the influence of the human spirit.
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Warp is not inherently evil - it is merely a mirror that calls into reality what people hide in the deepest depths of their mind.
In essence, Man needs the Imperium to control its own ambitions and emotions. The Warp or Chaos offer freedom - but freedom that Man is not able to cope with yet.
And it's not just a human issue. Look at the connection between Slaanesh and the Eldar.
We already have Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch to thank us. My point is, is it the way that a chaos incursion escalates what makes everything go to hell so much. Wasn't it Vraks where the Imperial Governor just wanted a bit of fun?
Lynata wrote: Have you seen the movie "Sphere"? The Warp is kinda like that.
Plus, I don't think we actually know that much about "untouched" Chaos worlds. What we do hear about is numerous feral cults with blood worship and human sacrifice etc, though.
Well yeah, to say that most chaos worlds are a place where you can have a nice picnic with a Khorne follower making you a cake, and not using your entrail, would be wrong. I'm just saying that from what we've seen described in the HH series is that there are worlds out there where it's not craptastic all the time.
When the setting is that the most atrocious, deplorable, unimaginable nightmare of evil that is the imeprium is needed just to keep your puny life breathing for a few minutes more then ya, I'd say it's a bit necessary.
That's what makes the setting so great in that humans literally need the horror of oppression that the imperium represents because it's the only thing keep them from being soul raped by demons, eatin alive by nids, flayed layer by layer by necrons, cast into madness by the eldar, tortured for sustenance by dark eldar, or crumped by orks.
Pilau Rice wrote:Pleasant to whom, an Imperial citizen or a citizen of a world where Chaos is the norm?
You do realise that this is just an inversion of what you self proposed in a previous post, do you?
-> "The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life."
The Inka were content with their civilisation as well - does that justify human sacrifice?
If you approach the issue from this angle, you can justify just about anything as the dominant majority will always be "content" with the situation.
As for Khorne ... there would be the fact that Chaos Daemons are a manifestation of their respective God's pure spirit and essence, and Khorne <-> Bloodletters.
Yes, he is. He is the blood god. That is his primary defining characteristic. He demands that the blood flow. He demands that skulls are piled on high. Everything else is just secondary.
Khorne is a god of pointless, wasteful, violent bloodshed. That is what he is. He isn't a war god. He isn't a battle-god. He is the blood god, sitting upon a throne of skulls in the middle of an endless ocean of blood.
I think the only way for the Imperium to be saved is for the Emperor to die. I look at the whole story as kinda like the movie "Dogma". The whole Golden Throne thingy just keeps the Emporer alive in a catatonic like state, preventing him from being reborn to once again lead the Imperium to glory.
Pilau Rice wrote:Pleasant to whom, an Imperial citizen or a citizen of a world where Chaos is the norm?
You do realise that this is just an inversion of what you self proposed in a previous post, do you?
-> "The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life."
The Inka were content with their civilisation as well - does that justify human sacrifice?
If you approach the issue from this angle, you can justify just about anything as the dominant majority will always be "content" with the situation.
No, but it made sense to them.
From the descriptions we have of the worlds and their inhabitants there is nothing to suggest that the worlds were an absolute nightmare to live on
Lynata wrote: As for Khorne ... there would be the fact that Chaos Daemons are a manifestation of their respective God's pure spirit and essence, and Khorne <-> Bloodletters.
ok, but that's not entirely true across the board though, at least in a naming convention sense
Yes, he is. He is the blood god. That is his primary defining characteristic. He demands that the blood flow. He demands that skulls are piled on high. Everything else is just secondary.
Khorne is a god of pointless, wasteful, violent bloodshed. That is what he is. He isn't a war god. He isn't a battle-god. He is the blood god, sitting upon a throne of skulls in the middle of an endless ocean of blood.
Yes, but he also has other aspects, the whole blood theme being the key one, you know like, murder, revenge, shouting loudly.
Those planets were placed there, their societies constructed just so, their development guided to specific points, just so the Imperium could come in, smash up the place, and people could then argue about it on the internet 28,000 years before the fact.
Psienesis wrote: Those planets were placed there, their societies constructed just so, their development guided to specific points, just so the Imperium could come in, smash up the place, and people could then argue about it on the internet 28,000 years before the fact.
Pilau Rice wrote:ok, but that's not entirely true across the board though, at least in a naming convention sense
Yeah, naming has little to do with this.
It's just that ... I think you were trying to hint on the whole "honour" and "warriors" thing, when this is really just what some few of Khorne's followers made up for themselves. That's not Khorne, that is their interpretation of Khorne. Khorne is Bloodletters, and Bloodletters don't care much for honour. They care for murder and carnage. Unless the honour and self-limitation of Khorne's followers outweighs the senseless murder, this won't change. Though even if this will change, there is a possibility that this could actually result in the creation of a new entity rather than changing Khorne as "he" exists now.
Eldar fluff has some interesting legends on the subject, iirc.
Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Chaos followers may not always represent the Chaos power they follow, but said power will eventually affect them, just like it is affected by the universal mass of people who have a connection to the Warp. It's a mutual relationship, so to say. You can't have a Chaos world "set aside" somewhere and expect it to remain somewhat peaceful when the rest of the universe goes up in flames. As the Warp changes in response to the emotions it is subjected to, so do the Chaos gods - and their daemons, and ultimately their followers everywhere.
Pilau Rice wrote:ok, but that's not entirely true across the board though, at least in a naming convention sense
Yeah, naming has little to do with this.
It's just that ... I think you were trying to hint on the whole "honour" and "warriors" thing, when this is really just what some few of Khorne's followers made up for themselves. That's not Khorne, that is their interpretation of Khorne. Khorne is Bloodletters, and Bloodletters don't care much for honour. They care for murder and carnage. Unless the honour and self-limitation of Khorne's followers outweighs the senseless murder, this won't change. Though even if this will change, there is a possibility that this could actually result in the creation of a new entity rather than changing Khorne as "he" exists now.
Eldar fluff has some interesting legends on the subject, iirc.
Not really what I was saying no, Khorne is bloodshed like you and Mel say, but also about deeds like murder and warfare which lead to that bloodshed. I thought you were referring to them having 'Blood' in their name, which wouldn't be the case for Slaanesh, Exessnettes doesn't sound very good.
Lynata wrote: Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Chaos followers may not always represent the Chaos power they follow, but said power will eventually affect them, just like it is affected by the universal mass of people who have a connection to the Warp. It's a mutual relationship, so to say. You can't have a Chaos world "set aside" somewhere and expect it to remain somewhat peaceful when the rest of the universe goes up in flames. As the Warp changes in response to the emotions it is subjected to, so do the Chaos gods - and their daemons, and ultimately their followers everywhere.
1. I think this question was not defined well enough by the OP.
What type of Imperium are we talking about because like people have different interpretations of the Tau we have different interpretations of the Imperium.
2. Good Imperium
The good Imperium has three parts. The first premise is that the only thing the Imperium does is demand tithes and belief in the Emperor. Beyond that they leave you alone.
The second premise is that the Imperium has a myriad of worlds, like nations on Earth. Some are great for commoners and some are bad. This is considered acceptable thing considering the thousands of worlds and the aforementioned no intervention of premise one. It is simply the result of a policy to not be involved in planetary politics beyond the bare minimum.
The third premise is like the second. Like Earth there are hell torn planets rife with war and death but the majority are peaceful and don't experience planetwide conflict.
These are all things I've heard used as defense for the Imperium by dakkadakka posters numerous times.
3. Bad Imperium
First premise is the Imperium is heavily involved in planetary affairs. Thought police. Brutal law enforcement. The Emperor's law is like Shariah law and enforced by religious zealots similiar to the Taliban.
Second premise is life sucks. Hive worlds. Death worlds. The common man is nothing before the overwhelming might of the Imperium warmachines. They are cogs to be used and dispensed of.
Third premise. War is everywhere. Really.
4. Conclusion
Imperium good is worth saving because things suck some places but as a whole they are doing the best they can.
Imperium bad is worth saving because there is no alternative. The Imperium is concurrent with mankind. This type of brutal governing is the only way the species can survive the horrors it is faced with.
I voted no under the assumption that we were discussing a bad Imperium where I believe there are alternative forms of government to the IoM. But clearly under a different framework I might have voted otherwise.
Chaos may be a bad thing from the point of view of humanity as a whole, but on individual level it may be a good option. If you are a witch about to be apprehended by authorities to be sent to feed the Emperor, a mutant or an alien about to be purged, or just any other oppressed person with no hope of the better, throwing in your lot with Chaos might start to seem like a really good idea. Chaos offers you chance to be something when you have nothing. Hell, if you please the gods you might even gain immortality, even though you were born as a lowly slave or a mutant scum. And yes, human sacrifice might be involved, but how is that different from sacrificing psykers to the Corpse God of the Imperium? I think some people take the imperial propaganda a bit too seriously. Chaos is no more evil than Imperium, it is just different kind of evil.
Melissia wrote: And I'm fairly certain the blood sacrifices would disagree with them.
So? I am sure many mutants are not that fond of Imperium's policy of exterminating all mutants, and many psykers might have some reservations about being fed to the corpse on the Golden Throne. Some might of course see it as a great honour, but same would be true for some Chaos sacrifices.
Chaos may be a bad thing from the point of view of humanity as a whole, but on individual level it may be a good option. If you are a witch about to be apprehended by authorities to be sent to feed the Emperor, a mutant or an alien about to be purged, or just any other oppressed person with no hope of the better, throwing in your lot with Chaos might start to seem like a really good idea. Chaos offers you chance to be something when you have nothing. Hell, if you please the gods you might even gain immortality, even though you were born as a lowly slave or a mutant scum. And yes, human sacrifice might be involved, but how is that different from sacrificing psykers to the Corpse God of the Imperium? I think some people take the imperial propaganda a bit too seriously. Chaos is no more evil than Imperium, it is just different kind of evil.
Sooo... does that make Chaos the sci-fi equivalent of libertarianism?
Relative morality is bad. Figured I'd throw that out there.
Is there any other kind out there that I'm not aware of then?
Melissia wrote: And I'm fairly certain the blood sacrifices would disagree with them.
So? I am sure many mutants are not that fond of Imperium's policy of exterminating all mutants
A policy that doesn't exist.
The Imperium doesn't cull mutants as a rule. It's quite likely to mistreat mutants as second class citizens, but mutants are more useful as labor than as corpses and that is how they're used most of the time. Even if it's close to slave labor (or in some cases actually IS slave labor) and conscription, it's still better than the fate they'd have in the hands of Chaos.
A policy that doesn't exist.
The Imperium doesn't cull mutants as a rule. It's quite likely to mistreat mutants as second class citizens, but mutants are more useful as labor than as corpses and that is how they're used most of the time. Even if it's close to slave labor (or in some cases actually IS slave labor) and conscription, it's still better than the fate they'd have in the hands of Chaos.
Or they can start to worship Chaos and gain gifts and even shot at daemonhood. It's perfect deal, no longer are your horrible fangs and tentacle arms sign of inferiority, they're marks of god's favour!
Crimson wrote: Or they can start to worship Chaos and gain gifts
No. The overwhelming majority of people who worship Chaos do not gain gifts. Far more end up becoming spawn than gaining any kind of useable "gift", and even those that do gain useable or at least neutral gifts often end up becoming spawn anyway.
The path to daemonhood is littered with the corpses of the weak, the poor, and the just unlucky-- littered because those turn in to spawn, and littered because those are used as bloody stepping stones.
Melissia wrote: No. The overwhelming majority of people who worship Chaos do not gain gifts. Far more end up becoming spawn than gaining any kind of useable "gift", and even those that do gain useable or at least neutral gifts often end up becoming spawn anyway.
The path to daemonhood is littered with the corpses of the weak, the poor, and the just unlucky-- littered because those turn in to spawn, and littered because those are used as bloody stepping stones.
That is exactly right. It is a gamble. And when you're horribly oppressed and have nothing, it is a gamble you might be willing to take.
Shlazaor wrote:Relative morality is bad. Figured I'd throw that out there.
This.
Whilst it's true that morality is always relative, I don't think it is worth it to debate societies solely from the stance of the majority of its inhabitants. Once we start to go down that road, you can justify anything. I swear, I was this close to evoking Godwyn's Law.
We are human beings, and as such we are inherently biased to what constitutes "good" or "evil". I choose to embrace this bias in an attempt to help make the world a better place, even if it's just about what *I* think is better. And I would hope that most of you think the same, and that our interpretations of what this means do not differ too much from one another.
Melissia wrote:The Imperium doesn't cull mutants as a rule.
Granted, that depends on the degree of mutation, and the position/relevance said mutants have within the population.
The Imperium does have stict views regarding the preservation of genetic purity, and does not permit intermingling or any sort of influence from the mutant population. They are essentially slaves, and if the mutation is too weird or too prevalent and may be regarded as threatening, then yes, Imperial troops and agencies may depend upon them in a purge.
I recall various events in the studio fluff ranging from Ecclesiarchy-initiated holocaust carried out by civilian militias all the way to purity control operations from the Inquisition, Arbites and Sororitas.
Mutation is the mark of Chaos, so sayeth the Imperial Creed.
It's really hard to call having your head shrunken to the size of your fist, and yet somehow surviving having your brain compressed to the size of a walnut, a "gift"...
... and yet, the "Shrunken Head" Gift of Chaos exists.
The Imperium needs to be saved, otherwise they'll have to make more models for different human factions and I don't think the 40k community can handle that XD
Whilst it's true that morality is always relative, I don't think it is worth it to debate societies solely from the stance of the majority of its inhabitants. Once we start to go down that road, you can justify anything. I swear, I was this close to evoking Godwyn's Law.
Thing is, people do this all the time to justify atrocities of Imperium. I just apply the same logic to Chaos. From any sane real world perspective both Imperium and Chaos are utterly and horribly evil and despicable.
We are human beings, and as such we are inherently biased to what constitutes "good" or "evil". I choose to embrace this bias in an attempt to help make the world a better place, even if it's just about what *I* think is better. And I would hope that most of you think the same, and that our interpretations of what this means do not differ too much from one another.
Were we discussing real world issues instead of fiction I'd agree with you 100%.
Crimson wrote:Thing is, people do this all the time to justify atrocities of Imperium. I just apply the same logic to Chaos. From any sane real world perspective both Imperium and Chaos are utterly and horribly evil and despicable.
They are - but the Imperium has a reason, whereas Chaos just does it "for the lulz".
The Imperium's people actually believe in a greater cause, and to even be able to justify atrocities by pointing out the prospect of saving way more people from a more grimly fate is a viable excuse. Cold and analytical, but viable.
When the forces of Chaos try to make the same justifications, all you need to do is look at them and consider what exactly would happen if they got their wish. To me, it is thus obvious who actually believes in their cause and who is just using it as a pretext. And even that is fairly rare, from what I've read. Most open followers of Chaos are surprisingly honest in their motivations. This goes back to the slow change I hinted at earlier, in essence some sort of grudge pushing you towards Chaos, followed by a time where you still think you do bad things for the right reasons (not too dissimilar from the Imperium). But ultimately, you end up as a crazed fanatic revelling in acts of depravity, whose only goal is to bring you joy and the approval of whatever warp entity you have chosen to pledge your soul to.
Monodominance isn't even the only philosophy within the Imperium. Thorianism is just as popular, due to the popularity of Sebastian Thor a a historical figure.
Manchu wrote: Are you saying Thorians do not believe the Imperium should be the dominant power in the galaxy and mankind the dominant species?
Are you? Are you saying that, heretic???
Monodominants don't merely believe that the Imperium should be the dominant power in the galaxy. They believe that hte Imperium should be the ONLY power in the galaxy. The only thing that should exist is the Imperium, everything else is to be destroyed.
Thorians would agree that the Imperium should be the dominant power, but the focus of a Thorian isn't on wiping out all evidence of the Imperium's enemies, but rather, to bring the Emperor back to life. The Amalathians also would likely agree that the Imperium should dominate... but that the fanatical nonsense of the monodominant would actually go against the Emperor's plan, as the Emperor had a grand plan that is being played out even now.
So that he can lead the Imperium to a new age of glory once more. This time, however, without any primarchs to betray him, and with an Imperium better prepared to counteract treason and heresy.
Eh, I don't know. I guess if all life was wiped out in the Galaxy then there wouldn't be any more problems....
That's pretty much what it comes down too. To be and suffer or just not be.
Manchu wrote: Just judging by what we know from the HH series, the puritan monodominants' beliefs correspond most closely to the Emperor's own public views.
At least at the time of the Great Crusade. But things and people change, and there's no telling how the Emperor might have changed over ten thousand years.
Which, amusingly, is one of the arguments AGAINST Thorianism.
Relying on the Emperor's own public beliefs, monodominance seems to me like the fundamental orthodoxy of the Imperial Creed. The question "is the Imperium worth saving?" must therefore also be, if asked from an orthodox Imperial perspective, is human existence the greatest good that human beings can imagine? The orthodox answer is, of course, yes. I think monodominance is also "true" -- I don't think humanity can survive in coexistence with xenos or daemons, not in the long run at least.
That's why I stressed what "we" know rather than what the average hiver of M41 knows. Even so, we have no reason to doubt that the Ecclesiarchy preaches anything but monodominance to the masses.
The Ecclesiarchy is not a unified whole, either, though. Much like the expansion of the Catholic church it's based on, many aspects of local worship is suborned and taken into the Ecclesiarchial Creed, then spit back out in a "Imperium-appropriate" manner. Thus, two different diocese of the Ecclesiarchy could practice very different versions of the faith.
The Ecclesiarchy is as likely to wage a War of Faith against itself as it is some other human group over issues of dogma and doctrine.
Is there in any published source or is it even imaginable that the Ecclesiarchy would preach tolerance of xenos or daemons anywhere at anytime in the Imperium without, as a matter of definition, being heretics?
Manchu wrote: Is there in any published source or is it even imaginable that the Ecclesiarchy would preach tolerance of xenos or daemons anywhere at anytime in the Imperium without, as a matter of definition, being heretics?
Oh hell no. But they DO tolerate non-standard cultures as long as they submit to Imperial authority (and let the Ecclesiarchy slowly subsume their religion to include Imperial icons, such as having the Emperor being the god of gods and his saints being his most dedicated servants, etc).
Remember, monodominance has nothing to do with selecting human cultures. It's a simple idea: the only way humanity can survive is if nothing else does.
Manchu wrote: Remember, monodominance has nothing to do with selecting human cultures. It's a simple idea: the only way humanity can survive is if nothing else does.
Actually it's about Imperial dominance specifically. Not just humanity as a whole, but the Imperium itself. Strict monodominants are more likely to condemn human cultures as heresy than others are.
Hold on, you're missing a major point. For monodominants, there is no difference between the Imperium and humanity. Any non-compliant strains of humanity are ipso facto sub humans (again, think of the Great Crusade). What I was saying is that compliance is not necessarily less broad for a monodominant than a Thorian or Almalanthian.
Chaos may be a bad thing from the point of view of humanity as a whole, but on individual level it may be a good option. If you are a witch about to be apprehended by authorities to be sent to feed the Emperor, a mutant or an alien about to be purged, or just any other oppressed person with no hope of the better, throwing in your lot with Chaos might start to seem like a really good idea. Chaos offers you chance to be something when you have nothing. Hell, if you please the gods you might even gain immortality, even though you were born as a lowly slave or a mutant scum. And yes, human sacrifice might be involved, but how is that different from sacrificing psykers to the Corpse God of the Imperium? I think some people take the imperial propaganda a bit too seriously. Chaos is no more evil than Imperium, it is just different kind of evil.
Sooo... does that make Chaos the sci-fi equivalent of libertarianism?
Relative morality is bad. Figured I'd throw that out there.
Is there any other kind out there that I'm not aware of then?
Absolutely and I am really glad you asked this. The idea that morality is relative is a common one shared by most people (including myself) until you begin to think about it. The key question relative moralist have to answer is relative to what?
Culture? Individual? Time?
It was considered okay in ancient times wipe a nation from the face of existence if it got in the way of your empire but did that make it right?
American culture condoned slavery for a time but did that actually make it okay?
I can believe I am righteous in torturing and raping someone but does that mean its alright?
The overwhelming majority of moral philosopher have rejected the concept of relative morality because the answers to each of those questions is a resounding no. Instead the institution of moral thinkers (all of the philosopher's whose professionis the study of morality) subscribe to universal morality. For example universal human rights. They believe there is an objective morality we can figure out but various individuals, culture's and time periods just haven't figured it out yet. And that's where the debate in the institution exists. It's not between relativists and universalist but rather between schools of universal thought.
Eh. The fact that most people tend to agree that certain things are evil, does not mean that good or evil objectively exists any more than objective beauty exists.
Crimson wrote: Eh. The fact that most people tend to agree that certain things are evil, does not mean that good or evil objectively exists any more than objective beauty exists.
I'd just like to point out that the concepts of good and evil as we know are ultimately meaningless in 40k, or even IRL (IMHO), so let's not apply them to the Imperium and Co.
Melissia wrote: On the contrary, heretics are considered humans. They're just humans whose only right is redemption through death.
That's a very good qualification, I agree. Allow me to re-phrase, monodominants see no difference between the Imperium and what portion of humanity "deserves" to survive.
I've been thinking about the various puritan positions and it seems to me that the chief difference between monodominants and Thorians is their perspective on the "salvation" of humanity. The monodominants believe in the track laid down by the Emperor himself during the Great Crusade: kill everything but compliant human populations. The monodominants seem to think that humanity depends on the continued prosecution of the Great Crusade. The Thorians don't disagree that the Great Crusade should still be pursued BUT they also don't think it will save humanity. Instead, they believe that the Emperor's ultimate intervention as a resurrected messiah is the necessary element.
As for the Amalanthians, they are the middle position by default: it is the Emperor's plan that will save us and it is working out in the galaxy as we speak. It's kind of a cop-out: maybe the plan is the Great Crusade, maybe the plan is resurrection. Maybe it's something else. This makes sense given that their focus is on unity.
Anyhow, it turns out that monodominance is logically the basic tenant of Imperial orthodoxy. From it's own perspective, the Imperium is worth saving because humanity is worth saving because humanity is the only thing that matters. Although that's not "objective" it cannot easily be gainsaid from a human perspective.
That is the Imperium. Anything before that is pre-Imperium. If you think the Emperor was not oppressive, and did not prefer to keep people in ignorance... well... that's stupid. The Imperium exists, exactly as it does now, because the Emperor was the man he was.
The Greater Good 
themselves, the templars will continue their crusade for the great Emperor and the Imperium shall become legend once more 
...
