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 DarthMarko wrote:

I think people from the hive worlds would disagree with you....

They wouldn't, imagine a Hive World like New York city.
You have part where the most rich and stature family lives, you have part where normal people live and you have part where poor people live - you even have sewers where homeless people are living. Same thing is with Hive cities.

OP's question is misleading at least. The setting is constructed in a way that makes a massive political organisation a necessity in order to support the vast forces that keep the other, equally massive powers at bay. The question should be "can the moral issues of the imperium be justified" or maybe "can there be an alternative to the imperium, that is morally more justified?" The question as it is doubts the right of mankind to survive in 40k.

 Brother Captain Alexander wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

I think people from the hive worlds would disagree with you....

They wouldn't, imagine a Hive World like New York city.
You have part where the most rich and stature family lives, you have part where normal people live and you have part where poor people live - you even have sewers where homeless people are living. Same thing is with Hive cities.

NYC is a pretty bad comparison. Hive Cities are unimaginably impoverished and dangerous at their lowest levels. Nothing like NYC or any American city for that matter.

Places in India might begin to correlate but even that is a stretch given the grimdarkness of 40k.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
As bad as the Imperium is, Chaos is worse in every way.

When it's pissed off, sure, but all the time, I don't know.

Then pay attention to the background some more.

Khorne demands blood sacrifice, preferably HUMAN blood sacrifice, and so the common person is nothing more than a potential victim to Khornate cultists, where at least the Imperium is happy to just let them live out their lives working in peace.

Nurgle spreads filth and disease, rotting society, people, buildings, etc from within as a matter of course, letting people suffer in despair. People are made to suffer, shrivel up, and die so that the cultists can watch the bacteria and viruses that their lords loves so much flourish in their foetid corpses.

Slaanesh demands excess, and the suffering of the common person will be excessive indeed. Excessive torture, sex slavery, servitude and malnourishment all so that the high-ranking cultists can be more and more excessive in their desire for pleasure.

Tzeentch demands change, plans, plots, and mutation-- and cares not what happens as a result. Constant civil war, assassinations, coups, rebellions, purges. Tzeentchian cultists will never let the common person live in peace, because that would be anathema to Tzeentch.

Chaos is inherently oppressive, even by Imperial standards. Only those at the top benefit from Chaos worship, where at least there's SOME benefit by those at the bottom for being in the Imperium.

 Melissia wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
As bad as the Imperium is, Chaos is worse in every way.

When it's pissed off, sure, but all the time, I don't know.

Then pay attention to the background some more.

Khorne demands blood sacrifice, preferably HUMAN blood sacrifice, and so the common person is nothing more than a potential victim to Khornate cultists, where at least the Imperium is happy to just let them live out their lives working in peace.

Nurgle spreads filth and disease, rotting society, people, buildings, etc from within as a matter of course, letting people suffer in despair. People are made to suffer, shrivel up, and die so that the cultists can watch the bacteria and viruses that their lords loves so much flourish in their foetid corpses.

Slaanesh demands excess, and the suffering of the common person will be excessive indeed. Excessive torture, sex slavery, servitude and malnourishment all so that the high-ranking cultists can be more and more excessive in their desire for pleasure.

Tzeentch demands change, plans, plots, and mutation-- and cares not what happens as a result. Constant civil war, assassinations, coups, rebellions, purges. Tzeentchian cultists will never let the common person live in peace, because that would be anathema to Tzeentch.

Chaos is inherently oppressive, even by Imperial standards. Only those at the top benefit from Chaos worship, where at least there's SOME benefit by those at the bottom for being in the Imperium.

So you ignore what references I give and go off on one, good one Mel.

I didn't ignore them. I cut off the quote so that the quote box wouldn't be huge.

So you admit that I'm right, because you don't have any response to what I have to say?

 Melissia wrote:
I didn't ignore them.I cut off the quote so that the quote box wouldn't be huge.

Or just convenient for you sounding off

 Melissia wrote:
So you admit that I'm right, because you don't have any response to what I have to say?

Hardly, I've already given enough examples to contradict what you say, maybe your the one that needs to pay some more attention hmm?

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Or just convenient for you sounding off

No, and if you're going to try to claim I'm a liar, then this discussion is done. I'm not going to participate in that kind of a discussion.

 Melissia wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Or just convenient for you sounding off

No, and if you're going to try to claim I'm a liar, then this discussion is done. I'm not going to participate in that kind of a discussion.

You insinuated that I didn't read the back ground and conveniently left off the part of my post where I provided examples of Chaos worlds with a relatively normal existence and then you went off on your spiel about that being wrong. That's the sort of discussion I won't have, where someone chooses to ignore the evidence placed in front of them to make themselves look good.

So yes, I guess we are done.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You insinuated that I didn't read the back ground

I stated that you didn't pay attention to the horrors that Chaos committed and gave examples of such. You haven't actually given an example of a chaos-worshipping world that WASN'T a horrible place for the common person to live. None of those places you listed were at all nice places to live.

Everything I stated above is EXACTLY what Chaos demands from its followers.

DarthMarko wrote:How is slow death better then a quick one ?

You mean if nothingness is better than misery? That's a very philosophical question...
By all rights, one could argue that humanity should disappear and make room for the Tau. /heresy

However, there is always that oh so faint glimmer of hope on the horizon that things might just get better some time in the future. That's an important part of the setting's description, too, I think.

Admiral Valerian wrote:I agree. The codices clearly over-exaggerate the situation.

And this assessment is based on ... personal preferences?

Admiral Valerian wrote:Now, if only the bureaucrats had used their heads immediately after the Horus Heresy and had focused on coming up with a solution to the Emperor's confinement as opposed to setting up a stagnant and ultimately self-destructive status quo, then we wouldn't have reached this point.

If you have a better solution, let's hear it.

 Melissia wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
You insinuated that I didn't read the back ground

I stated that you didn't pay attention to the horrors that Chaos committed and gave examples of such. You haven't actually given an example of a chaos-worshipping world that WASN'T a horrible place for the common person to live. None of those places you listed were at all nice places to live.

The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life. The Cadians knew about Chaos and embraced it, the Nurthene had a stable culture as did the Davinites, Istvann the same, 63 19 had the element that worshiped Samus. All are your pretty standard human worlds, some advanced some not.

 Melissia wrote:

Everything I stated above is EXACTLY what Chaos demands from its followers.

Do you know the specifics of every way that Chaos wants it's followers to act on worship, there are varying degrees on how to get blood, pleasure, etc

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life. The Cadians knew about Chaos and embraced it, the Nurthene had a stable culture as did the Davinites, Istvann the same, 63 19 had the element that worshiped Samus. All are your pretty standard human worlds, some advanced some not.

And none of them were pleasant places to live for the common populace, because Chaos demanded that they do horrible horrible things.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Do you know the specifics of every way that Chaos wants it's followers to act on worship, there are varying degrees on how to get blood, pleasure, etc

No there aren't. Slaanesh, for example, is not the god of pleasure. S/he's the god of EXCESS. Everything done in Slaanesh' name must be done in excess. Khorne demands that the skulls of the humans sacrificed in his name be piled up. Nurgle spreads disease and suffering and despair because that is what he is. Tzeentch only blesses those who plot and scheme, who backstab and betray.

Pilau Rice wrote:There might not be many about now sure, but during the Great Crusade I think there would have been. Chaos went all skulls, death and spiky when things didn't start to go its way. Do worlds that fall to Chaos go this way because of Chaos or because of what the follower thinks their masters want.

I think that, whilst you have a point, you neglect the influence of the human spirit.
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Warp is not inherently evil - it is merely a mirror that calls into reality what people hide in the deepest depths of their mind.

In essence, Man needs the Imperium to control its own ambitions and emotions. The Warp or Chaos offer freedom - but freedom that Man is not able to cope with yet.
And it's not just a human issue. Look at the connection between Slaanesh and the Eldar.

Have you seen the movie "Sphere"? The Warp is kinda like that.

Plus, I don't think we actually know that much about "untouched" Chaos worlds. What we do hear about is numerous feral cults with blood worship and human sacrifice etc, though.

 Melissia wrote:
And none of them were pleasant places to live for the common populace, because Chaos demanded that they do horrible horrible things.

Pleasant to whom, an Imperial citizen or a citizen of a world where Chaos is the norm?

 Melissia wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Do you know the specifics of every way that Chaos wants it's followers to act on worship, there are varying degrees on how to get blood, pleasure, etc

No there aren't. Slaanesh, for example, is not the god of pleasure. S/he's the god of EXCESS. Everything done in Slaanesh' name must be done in excess.

And Khorne is not just the god of blood is he, I didn't think I would need to list out every aspect of each particular god for you

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:There might not be many about now sure, but during the Great Crusade I think there would have been. Chaos went all skulls, death and spiky when things didn't start to go its way. Do worlds that fall to Chaos go this way because of Chaos or because of what the follower thinks their masters want.

I think that, whilst you have a point, you neglect the influence of the human spirit.
It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Warp is not inherently evil - it is merely a mirror that calls into reality what people hide in the deepest depths of their mind.

In essence, Man needs the Imperium to control its own ambitions and emotions. The Warp or Chaos offer freedom - but freedom that Man is not able to cope with yet.
And it's not just a human issue. Look at the connection between Slaanesh and the Eldar.

We already have Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch to thank us. My point is, is it the way that a chaos incursion escalates what makes everything go to hell so much. Wasn't it Vraks where the Imperial Governor just wanted a bit of fun?

 Lynata wrote:
Have you seen the movie "Sphere"? The Warp is kinda like that.

Nope, can't say I have.

 Lynata wrote:

Plus, I don't think we actually know that much about "untouched" Chaos worlds. What we do hear about is numerous feral cults with blood worship and human sacrifice etc, though.

Well yeah, to say that most chaos worlds are a place where you can have a nice picnic with a Khorne follower making you a cake, and not using your entrail, would be wrong. I'm just saying that from what we've seen described in the HH series is that there are worlds out there where it's not craptastic all the time.

When the setting is that the most atrocious, deplorable, unimaginable nightmare of evil that is the imeprium is needed just to keep your puny life breathing for a few minutes more then ya, I'd say it's a bit necessary.

That's what makes the setting so great in that humans literally need the horror of oppression that the imperium represents because it's the only thing keep them from being soul raped by demons, eatin alive by nids, flayed layer by layer by necrons, cast into madness by the eldar, tortured for sustenance by dark eldar, or crumped by orks.

Pilau Rice wrote:Pleasant to whom, an Imperial citizen or a citizen of a world where Chaos is the norm?

You do realise that this is just an inversion of what you self proposed in a previous post, do you?

-> "The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life."

The Inka were content with their civilisation as well - does that justify human sacrifice?

If you approach the issue from this angle, you can justify just about anything as the dominant majority will always be "content" with the situation.

As for Khorne ... there would be the fact that Chaos Daemons are a manifestation of their respective God's pure spirit and essence, and Khorne <-> Bloodletters.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Pleasant to whom, an Imperial citizen or a citizen of a world where Chaos is the norm?

The common citizen of the world in question.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
And Khorne is not just the god of blood is he

Yes, he is. He is the blood god. That is his primary defining characteristic. He demands that the blood flow. He demands that skulls are piled on high. Everything else is just secondary.

Khorne is a god of pointless, wasteful, violent bloodshed. That is what he is. He isn't a war god. He isn't a battle-god. He is the blood god, sitting upon a throne of skulls in the middle of an endless ocean of blood.

I think the only way for the Imperium to be saved is for the Emperor to die. I look at the whole story as kinda like the movie "Dogma". The whole Golden Throne thingy just keeps the Emporer alive in a catatonic like state, preventing him from being reborn to once again lead the Imperium to glory.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Pleasant to whom, an Imperial citizen or a citizen of a world where Chaos is the norm?

You do realise that this is just an inversion of what you self proposed in a previous post, do you?

-> "The inhabitants of the planets I mentioned seemed content to live the way they did until the Imperium came along and changed their way of life."

The Inka were content with their civilisation as well - does that justify human sacrifice?

If you approach the issue from this angle, you can justify just about anything as the dominant majority will always be "content" with the situation.

No, but it made sense to them.

From the descriptions we have of the worlds and their inhabitants there is nothing to suggest that the worlds were an absolute nightmare to live on

 Lynata wrote:
As for Khorne ... there would be the fact that Chaos Daemons are a manifestation of their respective God's pure spirit and essence, and Khorne <-> Bloodletters.

ok, but that's not entirely true across the board though, at least in a naming convention sense

 Melissia wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
And Khorne is not just the god of blood is he

Yes, he is. He is the blood god. That is his primary defining characteristic. He demands that the blood flow. He demands that skulls are piled on high. Everything else is just secondary.

Khorne is a god of pointless, wasteful, violent bloodshed. That is what he is. He isn't a war god. He isn't a battle-god. He is the blood god, sitting upon a throne of skulls in the middle of an endless ocean of blood.

Yes, but he also has other aspects, the whole blood theme being the key one, you know like, murder, revenge, shouting loudly.

my grey knights say "yes, worth savingtill our dying breath"

my orks say "WAAAAAGGGGHH smash da umies!"

Those planets were placed there, their societies constructed just so, their development guided to specific points, just so the Imperium could come in, smash up the place, and people could then argue about it on the internet 28,000 years before the fact.

Just as planned...

 Psienesis wrote:
Those planets were placed there, their societies constructed just so, their development guided to specific points, just so the Imperium could come in, smash up the place, and people could then argue about it on the internet 28,000 years before the fact.

Just as planned...

Tzeentch be praised

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Yes, but he also has other aspects, the whole blood theme being the key one, you know like, murder, revenge, shouting loudly.

Khorne is the blood god. Everything else is secondary and mostly irrelevant to what Khorne is.

Pilau Rice wrote:ok, but that's not entirely true across the board though, at least in a naming convention sense

Yeah, naming has little to do with this.
It's just that ... I think you were trying to hint on the whole "honour" and "warriors" thing, when this is really just what some few of Khorne's followers made up for themselves. That's not Khorne, that is their interpretation of Khorne. Khorne is Bloodletters, and Bloodletters don't care much for honour. They care for murder and carnage. Unless the honour and self-limitation of Khorne's followers outweighs the senseless murder, this won't change. Though even if this will change, there is a possibility that this could actually result in the creation of a new entity rather than changing Khorne as "he" exists now.
Eldar fluff has some interesting legends on the subject, iirc.

Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Chaos followers may not always represent the Chaos power they follow, but said power will eventually affect them, just like it is affected by the universal mass of people who have a connection to the Warp. It's a mutual relationship, so to say. You can't have a Chaos world "set aside" somewhere and expect it to remain somewhat peaceful when the rest of the universe goes up in flames. As the Warp changes in response to the emotions it is subjected to, so do the Chaos gods - and their daemons, and ultimately their followers everywhere.

 Lynata wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:ok, but that's not entirely true across the board though, at least in a naming convention sense

Yeah, naming has little to do with this.
It's just that ... I think you were trying to hint on the whole "honour" and "warriors" thing, when this is really just what some few of Khorne's followers made up for themselves. That's not Khorne, that is their interpretation of Khorne. Khorne is Bloodletters, and Bloodletters don't care much for honour. They care for murder and carnage. Unless the honour and self-limitation of Khorne's followers outweighs the senseless murder, this won't change. Though even if this will change, there is a possibility that this could actually result in the creation of a new entity rather than changing Khorne as "he" exists now.
Eldar fluff has some interesting legends on the subject, iirc.

Not really what I was saying no, Khorne is bloodshed like you and Mel say, but also about deeds like murder and warfare which lead to that bloodshed. I thought you were referring to them having 'Blood' in their name, which wouldn't be the case for Slaanesh, Exessnettes doesn't sound very good.

 Lynata wrote:
Anyways, I guess what I'm trying to say is that Chaos followers may not always represent the Chaos power they follow, but said power will eventually affect them, just like it is affected by the universal mass of people who have a connection to the Warp. It's a mutual relationship, so to say. You can't have a Chaos world "set aside" somewhere and expect it to remain somewhat peaceful when the rest of the universe goes up in flames. As the Warp changes in response to the emotions it is subjected to, so do the Chaos gods - and their daemons, and ultimately their followers everywhere.

I agree.

1. I think this question was not defined well enough by the OP.

What type of Imperium are we talking about because like people have different interpretations of the Tau we have different interpretations of the Imperium.

2. Good Imperium

The good Imperium has three parts. The first premise is that the only thing the Imperium does is demand tithes and belief in the Emperor. Beyond that they leave you alone.

The second premise is that the Imperium has a myriad of worlds, like nations on Earth. Some are great for commoners and some are bad. This is considered acceptable thing considering the thousands of worlds and the aforementioned no intervention of premise one. It is simply the result of a policy to not be involved in planetary politics beyond the bare minimum.

The third premise is like the second. Like Earth there are hell torn planets rife with war and death but the majority are peaceful and don't experience planetwide conflict.

These are all things I've heard used as defense for the Imperium by dakkadakka posters numerous times.

3. Bad Imperium

First premise is the Imperium is heavily involved in planetary affairs. Thought police. Brutal law enforcement. The Emperor's law is like Shariah law and enforced by religious zealots similiar to the Taliban.

Second premise is life sucks. Hive worlds. Death worlds. The common man is nothing before the overwhelming might of the Imperium warmachines. They are cogs to be used and dispensed of.

Third premise. War is everywhere. Really.


4. Conclusion

Imperium good is worth saving because things suck some places but as a whole they are doing the best they can.

Imperium bad is worth saving because there is no alternative. The Imperium is concurrent with mankind. This type of brutal governing is the only way the species can survive the horrors it is faced with.

I voted no under the assumption that we were discussing a bad Imperium where I believe there are alternative forms of government to the IoM. But clearly under a different framework I might have voted otherwise.

Chaos may be a bad thing from the point of view of humanity as a whole, but on individual level it may be a good option. If you are a witch about to be apprehended by authorities to be sent to feed the Emperor, a mutant or an alien about to be purged, or just any other oppressed person with no hope of the better, throwing in your lot with Chaos might start to seem like a really good idea. Chaos offers you chance to be something when you have nothing. Hell, if you please the gods you might even gain immortality, even though you were born as a lowly slave or a mutant scum. And yes, human sacrifice might be involved, but how is that different from sacrificing psykers to the Corpse God of the Imperium? I think some people take the imperial propaganda a bit too seriously. Chaos is no more evil than Imperium, it is just different kind of evil.

Which doesn't make it a good thing to have an entire planetary population run by the chaos cults.

 Melissia wrote:
Which doesn't make it a good thing to have an entire planetary population run by the chaos cults.

I'm pretty sure the chaos cultists would disagree with you.