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 Crimson wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Which doesn't make it a good thing to have an entire planetary population run by the chaos cults.

I'm pretty sure the chaos cultists would disagree with you.

And I'm fairly certain the blood sacrifices would disagree with them.

 Melissia wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Which doesn't make it a good thing to have an entire planetary population run by the chaos cults.

I'm pretty sure the chaos cultists would disagree with you.

And I'm fairly certain the blood sacrifices would disagree with them.

Relative morality is bad. Figured I'd throw that out there.

 Melissia wrote:
And I'm fairly certain the blood sacrifices would disagree with them.

So? I am sure many mutants are not that fond of Imperium's policy of exterminating all mutants, and many psykers might have some reservations about being fed to the corpse on the Golden Throne. Some might of course see it as a great honour, but same would be true for some Chaos sacrifices.

Chaos may be a bad thing from the point of view of humanity as a whole, but on individual level it may be a good option. If you are a witch about to be apprehended by authorities to be sent to feed the Emperor, a mutant or an alien about to be purged, or just any other oppressed person with no hope of the better, throwing in your lot with Chaos might start to seem like a really good idea. Chaos offers you chance to be something when you have nothing. Hell, if you please the gods you might even gain immortality, even though you were born as a lowly slave or a mutant scum. And yes, human sacrifice might be involved, but how is that different from sacrificing psykers to the Corpse God of the Imperium? I think some people take the imperial propaganda a bit too seriously. Chaos is no more evil than Imperium, it is just different kind of evil.

Sooo... does that make Chaos the sci-fi equivalent of libertarianism?

Relative morality is bad. Figured I'd throw that out there.

Is there any other kind out there that I'm not aware of then?

 Crimson wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
And I'm fairly certain the blood sacrifices would disagree with them.

So? I am sure many mutants are not that fond of Imperium's policy of exterminating all mutants

A policy that doesn't exist.

The Imperium doesn't cull mutants as a rule. It's quite likely to mistreat mutants as second class citizens, but mutants are more useful as labor than as corpses and that is how they're used most of the time. Even if it's close to slave labor (or in some cases actually IS slave labor) and conscription, it's still better than the fate they'd have in the hands of Chaos.

 Melissia wrote:

A policy that doesn't exist.
The Imperium doesn't cull mutants as a rule. It's quite likely to mistreat mutants as second class citizens, but mutants are more useful as labor than as corpses and that is how they're used most of the time. Even if it's close to slave labor (or in some cases actually IS slave labor) and conscription, it's still better than the fate they'd have in the hands of Chaos.

Or they can start to worship Chaos and gain gifts and even shot at daemonhood. It's perfect deal, no longer are your horrible fangs and tentacle arms sign of inferiority, they're marks of god's favour!

 Crimson wrote:
Or they can start to worship Chaos and gain gifts

No. The overwhelming majority of people who worship Chaos do not gain gifts. Far more end up becoming spawn than gaining any kind of useable "gift", and even those that do gain useable or at least neutral gifts often end up becoming spawn anyway.

The path to daemonhood is littered with the corpses of the weak, the poor, and the just unlucky-- littered because those turn in to spawn, and littered because those are used as bloody stepping stones.

 Melissia wrote:
No. The overwhelming majority of people who worship Chaos do not gain gifts. Far more end up becoming spawn than gaining any kind of useable "gift", and even those that do gain useable or at least neutral gifts often end up becoming spawn anyway.

The path to daemonhood is littered with the corpses of the weak, the poor, and the just unlucky-- littered because those turn in to spawn, and littered because those are used as bloody stepping stones.

That is exactly right. It is a gamble. And when you're horribly oppressed and have nothing, it is a gamble you might be willing to take.

Shlazaor wrote:Relative morality is bad. Figured I'd throw that out there.

This.

Whilst it's true that morality is always relative, I don't think it is worth it to debate societies solely from the stance of the majority of its inhabitants. Once we start to go down that road, you can justify anything. I swear, I was this close to evoking Godwyn's Law.

We are human beings, and as such we are inherently biased to what constitutes "good" or "evil". I choose to embrace this bias in an attempt to help make the world a better place, even if it's just about what *I* think is better. And I would hope that most of you think the same, and that our interpretations of what this means do not differ too much from one another.

Melissia wrote:The Imperium doesn't cull mutants as a rule.

Granted, that depends on the degree of mutation, and the position/relevance said mutants have within the population.
The Imperium does have stict views regarding the preservation of genetic purity, and does not permit intermingling or any sort of influence from the mutant population. They are essentially slaves, and if the mutation is too weird or too prevalent and may be regarded as threatening, then yes, Imperial troops and agencies may depend upon them in a purge.
I recall various events in the studio fluff ranging from Ecclesiarchy-initiated holocaust carried out by civilian militias all the way to purity control operations from the Inquisition, Arbites and Sororitas.

Mutation is the mark of Chaos, so sayeth the Imperial Creed.

It's really hard to call having your head shrunken to the size of your fist, and yet somehow surviving having your brain compressed to the size of a walnut, a "gift"...


... and yet, the "Shrunken Head" Gift of Chaos exists.

Well, it makes it less likely you get headshot, I guess.

But yes, Chaos gifts are like Chaos itself - fairly random.

The Imperium needs to be saved, otherwise they'll have to make more models for different human factions and I don't think the 40k community can handle that XD

 Lynata wrote:

Whilst it's true that morality is always relative, I don't think it is worth it to debate societies solely from the stance of the majority of its inhabitants. Once we start to go down that road, you can justify anything. I swear, I was this close to evoking Godwyn's Law.

Thing is, people do this all the time to justify atrocities of Imperium. I just apply the same logic to Chaos. From any sane real world perspective both Imperium and Chaos are utterly and horribly evil and despicable.

We are human beings, and as such we are inherently biased to what constitutes "good" or "evil". I choose to embrace this bias in an attempt to help make the world a better place, even if it's just about what *I* think is better. And I would hope that most of you think the same, and that our interpretations of what this means do not differ too much from one another.

Were we discussing real world issues instead of fiction I'd agree with you 100%.

Course it iz! Dey make summa da best fightin' in da hole ooniverse. What'd we do wiffout dem?

Crimson wrote:Thing is, people do this all the time to justify atrocities of Imperium. I just apply the same logic to Chaos. From any sane real world perspective both Imperium and Chaos are utterly and horribly evil and despicable.

They are - but the Imperium has a reason, whereas Chaos just does it "for the lulz".
The Imperium's people actually believe in a greater cause, and to even be able to justify atrocities by pointing out the prospect of saving way more people from a more grimly fate is a viable excuse. Cold and analytical, but viable.

When the forces of Chaos try to make the same justifications, all you need to do is look at them and consider what exactly would happen if they got their wish. To me, it is thus obvious who actually believes in their cause and who is just using it as a pretext. And even that is fairly rare, from what I've read. Most open followers of Chaos are surprisingly honest in their motivations. This goes back to the slow change I hinted at earlier, in essence some sort of grudge pushing you towards Chaos, followed by a time where you still think you do bad things for the right reasons (not too dissimilar from the Imperium). But ultimately, you end up as a crazed fanatic revelling in acts of depravity, whose only goal is to bring you joy and the approval of whatever warp entity you have chosen to pledge your soul to.

Every oppressive dictatorship always has their 'reasons' why the atrocities must happen. It doesn't make them any better.

And as you already alluded to Godwin, let's make it official: this is like debating who was worse, Jeffrey Dahmer or Joseph Goebbels.

It doesn't matter. Because they are wrong.

/puritanmonodominance

Monodominance isn't even the only philosophy within the Imperium. Thorianism is just as popular, due to the popularity of Sebastian Thor a a historical figure.

Are you saying Thorians do not believe the Imperium should be the dominant power in the galaxy and mankind the dominant species?

Are you? Are you saying that, heretic???

 Manchu wrote:
Are you saying Thorians do not believe the Imperium should be the dominant power in the galaxy and mankind the dominant species?

Are you? Are you saying that, heretic???

Monodominants don't merely believe that the Imperium should be the dominant power in the galaxy. They believe that hte Imperium should be the ONLY power in the galaxy. The only thing that should exist is the Imperium, everything else is to be destroyed.

Thorians would agree that the Imperium should be the dominant power, but the focus of a Thorian isn't on wiping out all evidence of the Imperium's enemies, but rather, to bring the Emperor back to life. The Amalathians also would likely agree that the Imperium should dominate... but that the fanatical nonsense of the monodominant would actually go against the Emperor's plan, as the Emperor had a grand plan that is being played out even now.

 Melissia wrote:
but rather, to bring the Emperor back to life

So that he can ...

Just think back to the Great Crusade.

So that he can lead the Imperium to a new age of glory once more. This time, however, without any primarchs to betray him, and with an Imperium better prepared to counteract treason and heresy.

Eh, I don't know. I guess if all life was wiped out in the Galaxy then there wouldn't be any more problems....
That's pretty much what it comes down too. To be and suffer or just not be.

 Melissia wrote:
So that he can lead the Imperium to a new age of glory

Yep, glorious monodominance. Just like in the day.

 Melissia wrote:
but that the fanatical nonsense of the monodominant would actually go against the Emperor's plan

Doesn't seem so unless you know something about his plan that the rest of us don't.

The Amalathians actually would argue that the status quo is a good part of the Emperor's plan.

Keep in mind that no one alive actually KNOWS the Emperor as a person, aside from the Custodes, and they ain't talking.

Just judging by what we know from the HH series, the puritan monodominants' beliefs correspond most closely to the Emperor's own public views.

 Manchu wrote:
Just judging by what we know from the HH series, the puritan monodominants' beliefs correspond most closely to the Emperor's own public views.

At least at the time of the Great Crusade. But things and people change, and there's no telling how the Emperor might have changed over ten thousand years.

Which, amusingly, is one of the arguments AGAINST Thorianism.

It's also worth pointing out that neither Almalanthianism or Thorianism necessarily rejects the monodominant position.

 Manchu wrote:
It's also worth pointing out that neither Almalanthianism or Thorianism necessarily rejects the monodominant position.

Not necessarily. but the focus of each of them is different.

Relying on the Emperor's own public beliefs, monodominance seems to me like the fundamental orthodoxy of the Imperial Creed. The question "is the Imperium worth saving?" must therefore also be, if asked from an orthodox Imperial perspective, is human existence the greatest good that human beings can imagine? The orthodox answer is, of course, yes. I think monodominance is also "true" -- I don't think humanity can survive in coexistence with xenos or daemons, not in the long run at least.