Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There are those who say the Emperor is replaceable and the concept of the 'God-Emperor' is more valuable than the man himself, and that the Inquisition/High Lords of Terra would seek to prevent his return/reincarnation/resurrection/transcendence to preserve their power and the status quo. If so, then who are the liars now? The Forces of Chaos, those who fight against the 'False Emperor', or the Imperium itself?

Your question and your thesis don't align.

Actually they do. Is the Imperium worth saving when it seeks to uphold a lie whereas the Forces of Chaos paradoxically fight that lie?

Is it worth lying to save trillions and trillions of people?
Yes.

 purplefood wrote:
Is it worth lying to save trillions and trillions of people?
Yes.

Congratulations, you have earned the Liar God's favor. Tzeentch smiles even as the Emperor mourns

You mean is the survival of the human species (and every other sentient species in the galaxy) worth lying about the nature of Chaos, beings that wish to enslave and devour the galaxy, to consume the souls of the living?

Yes, absolutely.

Although could you clarify as to what 'lie' you're referring to?

Were you not a fan of this novel-based "Imperial Truth" idea, which in itself was a lie as well - created and promoted by the Emperor?

To be honest, the poll sounds a bit ... weird, even resentful. What exactly is it you wish to achieve? If this is supposed to be a debate on Imperial morals and ethics, then I would point out that the survival of mankind should be pretty high up on the agenda, from an egoistic evolutionary perspective. Is mankind as a whole worth saving? Now that's a more interesting question, but one that has little to do with the Imperium of Man. The Imperium is, in the end, little more than an accumulation of humanity's most harmful fears and desires. The darker sides of man's psyche made manifest. I thought this almost refreshingly dystopian image is why we like this setting.

Also, the Forces of Chaos do not fight against a lie, or for any actual ideals of their own. The Forces of Chaos fight because to fight it is their desire, their raison d'etre, regardless of the reasons that may have compelled an individual to have once joined them.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Actually they do. Is the Imperium worth saving when it seeks to uphold a lie whereas the Forces of Chaos paradoxically fight that lie?

Whether the God-Emperor exists as the divine entity He is believed to be is irrelevant. The Forces of Chaos, fighting this "False Emperor", are being lead along by malign influences of wholly alien, inhuman intelligences. They're not so much fighting the Imperium because of this possible lie, but simply using that as a strawman argument to win others to their cause. You think Nurgle or Slaanesh give a feth if the Emperor is still alive?

That said, yes, the Imperium is worth saving. The alternative is annihilation.

 rems01 wrote:


Although could you clarify as to what 'lie' you're referring to?

The 'God-Emperor' and his worship are lies in themselves. The Emperor proscribed religion, and even went so far as to personally oversee the destruction of the last church on Ancient Terra, to chastise his own son, and even burn a whole city down to enforce this directive. Heck, even on the eve of the Siege of Terra, the Imperial Administration was directing Imperial forces to suppress Emperor-worshipers on Ancient Terra itself (The Outcast Dead).

 Lynata wrote:
Were you not a fan of this novel-based "Imperial Truth" idea, which in itself was a lie as well - created and promoted by the Emperor?

Technically, it was correct. The Powers of Chaos and Daemons are just mortal titles. They're not really gods or demons, just energy-based xenos created from mortals' subconscious.

To be honest, the poll sounds a bit ... weird, even resentful. What exactly is it you wish to achieve?

Basically is the Imperium even worth saving when it's reached the point that it's no better than it's enemies?

 Psienesis wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Actually they do. Is the Imperium worth saving when it seeks to uphold a lie whereas the Forces of Chaos paradoxically fight that lie?

Whether the God-Emperor exists as the divine entity He is believed to be is irrelevant. The Forces of Chaos, fighting this "False Emperor", are being lead along by malign influences of wholly alien, inhuman intelligences. They're not so much fighting the Imperium because of this possible lie, but simply using that as a strawman argument to win others to their cause. You think Nurgle or Slaanesh give a feth if the Emperor is still alive?

That said, yes, the Imperium is worth saving. The alternative is annihilation.

Not when it goes against everything the Emperor believed in.

Solomon Voss wrote:
I have seen the future, and it is dead.

He was right.

I think it's worth it, I mean it's only 3 syllables and takes like a second to say. I mean it doesn't take much effort so yeah I think it's definitely worth it.

Who gives feth what some guy ten thousand years ago did or did not believe? Emperor of the Great Crusade doesn't matter, the idea of God-Emperor does.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Technically, it was correct. The Powers of Chaos and Daemons are just mortal titles. They're not really gods or demons, just energy-based xenos created from mortals' subconscious.

Yes, but they do not go away just because you stop believing in them. The creatures of the Warp draw their power from emotions, memories, thoughts.
The only way to close this connection permanently would be to kill or lobotomise everyone.

So what this hypothetical Imperial Truth actually is can be compared to the US "duck and cover" propaganda downplaying the results of a nuclear attack.
Or, no, even better: It'd be as if the US government would have claimed that Soviet Russia does not exist.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Basically is the Imperium even worth saving when it's reached the point that it's no better than it's enemies?

Based on what? Because both sides tell lies to their respective people?
Politicians are lying to us right now - does that mean our current nations are not worth saving?

This goes back to my question regarding humanity as a whole, though.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Not when it goes against everything the Emperor believed in.

I'd say that, first and foremost, the Emperor believed in the survival of humanity.

Else he would not have come up with that lie, would he?

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:Not when it goes against everything the Emperor believed in.

I'd say that, first and foremost, the Emperor believed in the survival of humanity.

Else he would not have come up with that lie, would he?

The Emperor hated religion though. As I recall, he practically spat on the word 'priest' during the destruction of the last church.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:


The 'God-Emperor' and his worship are lies in themselves. The Emperor proscribed religion, and even went so far as to personally oversee the destruction of the last church on Ancient Terra, to chastise his own son, and even burn a whole city down to enforce this directive. Heck, even on the eve of the Siege of Terra, the Imperial Administration was directing Imperial forces to suppress Emperor-worshipers on Ancient Terra itself (The Outcast Dead).

 Lynata wrote:
Were you not a fan of this novel-based "Imperial Truth" idea, which in itself was a lie as well - created and promoted by the Emperor?

Technically, it was correct. The Powers of Chaos and Daemons are just mortal titles. They're not really gods or demons, just energy-based xenos created from mortals' subconscious.

Alright so now we're onto what exactly makes a god a god. Does something merely have to be worshiped as such? By such criteria the emperor is a god, as are the Chaos pantheon. Do gods have to have some special powers? Again the Emperor and the Ruinous powers fulfill that criteria.

In terms of how gods are described and represented in the 40k setting the Chaos gods and the Eldar gods are certainly 'gods'. You could then make a strong case for the Emperor. He has after all been worshiped by trillions of people for 10,000 years. That's surely going to have some effect, some echo or reflection in the warp (which is where we getthe Star Child theory from).

Still if the belief in a fake divinity is one of the things keeping the Imperium going then absolutely is it worth continuing.

That doesn't mean that the belief in the God-Emperor did not either deify his psychic presence, or create an entirely new Warp God out of this pool of uncounted trillions of devoted worshipers, anchored around Terra by the prayers and beliefs of collective humanity. In this, the forces of Chaos are simply reinforcing Him, striving as they do to reach Terra.

There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.

Yes, we know that the Emperor, the man, disliked religion. He even attempted to stamp it out. This doesn't mean that he was successful, or even correct, in his theory. As to his own deification? Irony's a b**ch.

The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.

EDIT: Horrifying thought: what if the God-Emperor and the Emperor are two separate beings, with the former being a slumbering god ala Slaanesh/Ynnead created by the Imperium's misguided faith while the latter is the dying psyker on the Golden Throne? And the moment the latter dies, the former 'awakes' ala Fall of the Eldar?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.

So what?

 Crimson wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.

So what?

What do you mean so what? It's treason to worship the Emperor by his own decree.

 Psienesis wrote:

There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.

I wouldn't go that far. These things can certainly have other explanations. If something strange happens it does not mean God-Emperor did it, it means something strange happened and something caused it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

What do you mean so what? It's treason to worship the Emperor by his own decree.

High Lords decide what is the will of the Emperor, and they say that worship is required, so then it is!

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.

I wouldn't go that far. These things can certainly have other explanations. If something strange happens it does not mean God-Emperor did it, it means something strange happened and something caused it.

Living Saints?

Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?

People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Emperor hated religion though. As I recall, he practically spat on the word 'priest' during the destruction of the last church.

Not from how I recall the story - if such an event actually happened.

That aside, do you really believe that the Emperor would regard the eradication of religion as more important than mankind's survival?
In essence, is it better for all humans to die than survival under the influence of a most likely temporary faith - which, in the current age of the Imperium, acts as a guarantor for stability?

It really sounds like you're dragging RL concerns about religion into a discussion about the setting. I'm an atheist myself, but I can only suggest to "cut loose" the meta-thinking. Don't you enjoy the setting for what it is? Don't you like Grimdark? What do you actually see in 40k that compels you to invest so much time and emotion into the hobby, including this forum?

Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: Horrifying thought: what if the God-Emperor and the Emperor are two separate beings, with the former being a slumbering god ala Slaanesh/Ynnead created by the Imperium's misguided faith while the latter is the dying psyker on the Golden Throne? And the moment the latter dies, the former 'awakes' ala Fall of the Eldar?

Possible. It'd certainly fit into my theory regarding what the Living Saints are.
That being said, it is very hard to speculate on the nature of this hypothetical new entity, or how its awakening would affect humanity. Slaanesh is an example, not the rule.

Psienesis wrote:Living Saints?
Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?
People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?

Granted, all of this could well be explained as psychic phenomena, technology, or simply myth and legend... or hallucination.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

There's too many in-universe events that support the belief in the divine nature of the God-Emperor to really say it did not happen.

I wouldn't go that far. These things can certainly have other explanations. If something strange happens it does not mean God-Emperor did it, it means something strange happened and something caused it.

Living Saints?

The Warp just reacting to their and the people around them faith?

Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?

What? I thought that bolter shell in his armor just failed to detonate.

People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?

Are you sure? Behind the Throne is a massive portal after all. And elsewhere in the complex tens of thousands of psykers are being bled of their essence to power the Astronomican.

 Lynata wrote:

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Emperor hated religion though. As I recall, he practically spat on the word 'priest' during the destruction of the last church.

Not from how I recall the story - if such an event actually happened.

That aside, do you really believe that the Emperor would regard the eradication of religion as more important than mankind's survival?
In essence, is it better for all humans to die than survival under the influence of a most likely temporary faith - which, in the current age of the Imperium, acts as a guarantor for stability?

Yes. Because he wanted what was best for Humanity. And the current iteration of the Imperium is definitely not the best.

Don't you like Grimdark? What do you actually see in 40k that compels you to invest so much time and emotion into the hobby, including this forum?

The Imperial Navy. The glories of the Great Crusade.

Admiral Valerian wrote:EDIT: Horrifying thought: what if the God-Emperor and the Emperor are two separate beings, with the former being a slumbering god ala Slaanesh/Ynnead created by the Imperium's misguided faith while the latter is the dying psyker on the Golden Throne? And the moment the latter dies, the former 'awakes' ala Fall of the Eldar?

Possible. It'd certainly fit into my theory regarding what the Living Saints are.
That being said, it is very hard to speculate on the nature of this hypothetical new entity, or how its awakening would affect humanity. Slaanesh is an example, not the rule.

That is not good at all.

Bah, had my Saints confused. Saint Drusus arose from his assassination attempt... although Macharius left a trail of miracles in his wake.

 Psienesis wrote:
Bah, had my Saints confused. Saint Drusus arose from his assassination attempt... although Macharius left a trail of miracles in his wake.

Yes...and if someone not of high rank did something similar, the authorities would come crashing down on him/her as a witch.

 Psienesis wrote:

Living Saints?

They could be just strong willed crazy people. Like Yarrick. Or if they actually display blatantly supernatural powers (which I don't think they do, though) they could be possessed by a daemon.

Lord-Solar Macharius killed by assassins and then rises from the dead, whole, and leads his Crusade to even greater glories?

He is actually just seriously wounded, people think he is dead but he recovers. These things happen. Or if he was truly miraculously recovered this does not prove it was Emperor who caused it.

People actually speaking with *someone*, via telepathic communion, while in His presence at the foot of the Golden-Throne?

People hear voices in their heads all the time. This does not prove that they're just not crazy/imagining it/lying. Also, it could be any half decent telepath nearby faking the Emperor's voice in their heads.

Admiral Valerian wrote:Yes. Because he wanted what was best for Humanity. And the current iteration of the Imperium is definitely not the best.

Wow, that's harsh.

Remember: Any iteration can change some day. Genocide is forever.

Admiral Valerian wrote:The Imperial Navy. The glories of the Great Crusade.

Okay, I'll respect that.
I'll hope you come around in time, though.

Admiral Valerian wrote:That is not good at all.

Depends. If such a Warp entity would act similar to the Living Saints ... why wouldn't it be good? It would be as if the Emperor Himself would have risen from the dead. Remember, these creatures don't have a mind of their own - they are an accumulation of the emotions and thoughts they absorbed from whatever populace fed their "birth". You might actually get a guy in golden armour rising from the throne and go on a new Great Crusade, burning a path through the entire Imperium right towards the Eye of Terra, intent on forcing a final confrontation between "good and evil" and slaying the Chaos Gods themselves.

Just a random thought, mind you. I could see lots of possible outcomes - some good, some not so good, some apocalyptic.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Is it worth lying to save trillions and trillions of people?
Yes.

Congratulations, you have earned the Liar God's favor. Tzeentch smiles even as the Emperor mourns

The Emperor is a necessary lie to keep Humanity united. Even with it there are many planets who try to leave the Imperium.
Those who do are conquered by other races and usually the human inhabitants are enslaved or murdered.
Chaos isn't some kind of liberating force. They aren't trying to free people.
Chaos is far more evil than the Imperium if only because the Imperium is the lesser evil.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.

Pretty sure the Emperor also didn't want Horus and half his sons to turn to Chaos. Funny how things work out.

If the Emperor awoke right now and saw things as they are he would realize that his people did what they had to to survive.

Yes, it is worth saying "The Imperium".

It just sounds cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.

Pretty sure the Emperor also didn't want Horus and half his sons to turn to Chaos. Funny how things work out.

If the Emperor awoke right now and saw things as they are he would realize that his people did what they had to to survive.

fething exalted.

Not to stray too far off the path, but I never understood Title Typos. You think he would have noticed by now.