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Admiral Valerian wrote: The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.
So what?
What do you mean so what? It's treason to worship the Emperor by his own decree.
So what? This is irrelevant to whether the Imperium is worth saving or not.
If by saving the Imperium the Emperor still sits on the Golden Throne and that Astronomicon keeps on shining, then Chaos doesn't run rampant with Bloodletters mounting women and children on their spits, Plaguebearers bringing back the Bubonic Plague, Daemonettes having their way with Eldar, and Tzeentch stealing everyone's car keys. The Eldar get special mention because nothing is making Chaos stop with plunging mankind into infernal darkness and not everyone else.
Space Wolves: 3770
Orks: 3000
Chaos Daemons: 1750
Warriors of Chaos: 2000
I will just write this quote from the rulebook: "Without the protection of the Imperium, mankind would fall prey to the countless perils that threaten it."
Is it Imperium good as it is now - that's debatable as there are many thing that question it like genocide of species like Orks and Tyranids, sending million of Guardsmen to death to protect billions of people, idiot leaders, power hungry factions etc... But the fact remains - without the Imperium Human race would go extinct, or even worse - used as food source for Daemons and Chaos Gods until entire race is wiped out. It's irony that without the Imperium all other galactic races would go extinct as well as entire galaxy would be one giant Eye of Terror and not even the Orks with their numbers or Necrons with their technology would be able to stand against creatures who can warp reality around them as they wish, oh and cannot die.
Mankind really has 3 choices in 41'st millennium:
-Stand together in the Imperium.
-Live under Tau regime.
-DIe out.
And like one man said: "Even living under Human fascist regime is much better then living under alien fascist regime." To tell you the truth Human can never live under the Tau because Humans are driven to be free and to rule themselves. As Tau ask for obedience and the right to control every aspect of political power I doubt that Humans living under Tau would suffer to live like that for long - even if it's in their best interest ( I mean just look at our own history, How many people wanted to get independence even if they live in societies that were somewhat fair and give them a lot of control. Even in USA, where most of the people have many rights and big political freedom there are still many individuals who want independence for some of US states like California and Texas - and they are living in land of plenty and land where you can became anything ) .
As far as I am concerned Humanity best hope in 41'st millennium is still the Imperium of Mankind, even if it's in a state like that.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
... to be fair, that is because many Americans are fething stupid. This may also hold true in the Imperium, but, I dunno, I live in America, not the Imperium.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
I'm going to say the Imperium is not worth saving, due to the slight chance that in its death throes it might cough up a new Chaos god a la Slaanesh by the Eldar.
Tau aren't big enough to save the imperium even if the imperium wanted them to.
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I find the title question of this poll very misleading. I think the initial post as well as the poll itself could have been a little clearer. Generally speaking, it always pays to be as explicit as possible. This isn't an attack, and it's not a judgement. I'm just mentioning that I felt like the initial post was unclear, and I had to read the entire thread to this point before I could understand what we were being asked. Dakka allows all kinds of users. Unfortunately, some of us are a little slower on the uptake than others and need a little help understanding complex issues.
In any event, going forward, of course I think the Imperium is worth saving. I think that the forces who "fight against the lies" throw up the whole 'You're Emperor isn't a god and never was' thing as a justification. It's like one of those African warlords who claims he's a freedom fighter against a despot. Yes, technically the leader of the country is a despot, but the warlord wouldn't stop the rapes and massacres even if the despot disappeared tomorrow. The forces of Chaos fight against the Imperium because they're depraved, sadistic monsters, motivated only by their own cruel and perverse desires. Even if the High Lords of Terra surrendered to them, they would still rape, kill, and torture their way across the galaxy, because they like it.
The Imperium may have a lot of corruption within the higher ranks, but like almost all actual societies, it's built on the backs of regular old people, who aren't really guilty of any great evil; instead, they're just trying to make it day-to-day. The irony that you can say the same thing about some (but not all) of the Chaos legions is not lost on me. (I think that the people who lived on the Echo of Damnation were worth saving too. They, too, were just trying to get by, even though the fruits of their labors were used by afforementioned depraved monsters to spread fear and pain across the galaxy.)
That's just my personal opinion, of course, so others may not agree, and that's fine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 06:40:05
As bad as the Imperium is, Chaos is worse in every way.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Admiral Valerian wrote: The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped. He made that clear so many times.
Pretty sure the Emperor also didn't want Horus and half his sons to turn to Chaos. Funny how things work out.
If the Emperor awoke right now and saw things as they are he would realize that his people did what they had to to survive.
And what is that ? False worshiping ? Slow death trough stagnation ? Fanatics ? They need that to survive ? *slow clap'
I suggest you watch "this it is very IMPORTANT" :
And if Emperor returned he would purge Imperium so hard that sisters would flee to EoT...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 07:25:50
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: And what is that ? False worshiping ? Slow death trough stagnation ? Fanatics ? They need that to survive ? *slow clap'
The "false worship" isn't really even false at this point. The Emperor basically set himself up to be a god, even if you can argue he did so unintentionally. But since his incarceration in the Golden Throne, he has worked with the Ecclesiarchy as humanity's best hope to resist Chaos. As for fanatics, yes, they are needed. Fanatics are wonderful tools to use against chaos. As for slow death, the Imperium faces far greater threats in "modern" eras than the Great Crusade did, and yet it's survived for far longer without being torn apart.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 07:26:24
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
DarthMarko wrote: And what is that ? False worshiping ? Slow death trough stagnation ? Fanatics ? They need that to survive ? *slow clap'
The "false worship" isn't really even false at this point. The Emperor basically set himself up to be a god, even if you can argue he did so unintentionally. But since his incarceration in the Golden Throne, he has worked with the Ecclesiarchy as humanity's best hope to resist Chaos. As for fanatics, yes, they are needed. Fanatics are wonderful tools to use against chaos. As for slow death, the Imperium faces far greater threats in "modern" eras than the Great Crusade did, and yet it's survived for far longer without being torn apart.
I consider you as very intelligent person (judging by your prev posts), but I can't understand how can you simplify this to this level...
Now tell me, in the grimdark, do you honestly belive all that ? How is slow death better then a quick one ? What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
I' mean I do not exclude Emperor being a God, but also I know his way from heresy which pretty much "contradicts" IoM40k as a whole...
So if Empy wakes it would be like - check's the window, sees the fantics, goes back to bed...
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
With the Golden Throne failing, it's only a matter of time. The Terran portal will open, and Terra will be overrun by Daemons. The Void Dragon's prison will collapse, and all life on Mars will be consumed before the Dragon feeds on Sol and seals the fate of the Terran solar system. Without the Astronomican, the Imperium will crumble.
Now, if only the bureaucrats had used their heads immediately after the Horus Heresy and had focused on coming up with a solution to the Emperor's confinement as opposed to setting up a stagnant and ultimately self-destructive status quo, then we wouldn't have reached this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 09:47:37
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
Funny thing is "Magnus" who knows psykic manifestations more then anyone in the imperium - still doesn't consider chaos gods as "Gods" even after he realizes their power...
IMHO until they are omnipotent - they are just abominations who need to be purged (which is pretty imposible) or at least weakened from the "inside of society"...
Emp? Mightiest psyker in the galaxy ? Yes! God ? Depends what the term god means for you...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 09:33:08
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Now tell me, in the grimdark, do you honestly belive all that ? How is slow death better then a quick one ? What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
They aren't.
Chaos is inherently oppressive to the point that even the Imperium is favorable in comparison.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 09:34:32
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Well the Inquisition and High Lords can go themselves, the templars will continue their crusade for the great Emperor and the Imperium shall become legend once more
Good luck to them. They're all gonna die, abandoned by their 'god'. Or worse: the Emperor dies, and the God-Emperor awakes ala Fall of the Eldar, and it's an atomic wedgie for the galaxy. Again.
Funny thing is "Magnus" who knows psykic manifestations more then anyone in the imperium - still doesn't consider chaos gods as "Gods" even after he realizes their power...
Even worse is the fact that everything Magnus and the Thousand Sons feared about the Imperium's future should it close itself to the potential power of knowledge has come true. I get the feeling Inquisitor Valeria would get along well with pre-Heresy Magnus and his legion.
On another note, I just noticed: Inquisitor Valeria has the feminine form of my name
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/28 09:48:36
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
DarthMarko wrote: Now tell me, in the grimdark, do you honestly belive all that ? How is slow death better then a quick one ? What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
They aren't.
Chaos is inherently oppressive to the point that even the Imperium is favorable in comparison.
Well, maybe not literary...but they are fueling chaos more then they did 10 000 years ago and every year they push the throttle a bit more....Ofc, until line which divides them goes *puf * ...
On another note, I just noticed: Inquisitor Valeria has the feminine form of my name
lol....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 09:49:08
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: Well, maybe not literary...but they are fueling chaos
The Warp != Chaos.
"Chaos" is just the so-called gods of the warp and their various slaves/demons/etc. The Warp, or Empyrean / the Immaterium, is inherently connected to the Materium, and vice versa. Thus, every living being in the material world "fuels" the Immaterium as a matter of course. Chaos feeds off of excessive negative emotions-- the excessive part is the key word here Slaanesh isn't fueled by a pair of lovers making love to one another. Khorne isn't fueled by a papercut. Nurgle isn't fueled by someone having an undercooked steak or catching a mild cough. Tzeentch isn't fueled by minor changes or people having a daily planner.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
DarthMarko wrote: Well, maybe not literary...but they are fueling chaos
The Warp != Chaos.
"Chaos" is just the so-called gods of the warp and their various slaves/demons/etc. The Warp, or Empyrean / the Immaterium, is inherently connected to the Materium, and vice versa. Thus, every living being in the material world "fuels" the Immaterium as a matter of course. Chaos feeds off of excessive negative emotions-- the excessive part is the key word here Slaanesh isn't fueled by a pair of lovers making love to one another. Khorne isn't fueled by a papercut. Nurgle isn't fueled by someone having an undercooked steak or catching a mild cough. Tzeentch isn't fueled by minor changes or people having a daily planner.
Who said anything about the warp ? I said chaos....Khorne is fueled by unstopping wars, Nurgle by death and diseases, Tzeenchy by shify governors (:-), Slaneesh by hedonism - which IoM has plenty to offer....
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
DarthMarko wrote: What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
Actually this statement is not true if we take all fluff into account, it turns out that majority of Imperial citizens live a decent life - the one you woudl expect fro m20'th or 21'st century Human.
The only difference would be planet where they live, same like Earth today: a men living in US or Europe will have more better live then someone living in let's say some African state that is in war or North Korea.
Imperium has 3 very simple rules for each planet: pay tax, venerate the Emperor, obey the Imperial law.
You can do pretty much everything else and they will not bother you because of that, even we wouldn't fell being under oppression if we had Imperium to rule over us. On some planets you can even vote to choose planetary Governour.
The thing they say about the Imperium - some of it is true but most is over the top and thus not true - like "There is only war quote" when majority of Imperial worlds ( like 80 - 90% ) is not in any kind of warfare at all.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
DarthMarko wrote: What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
Actually this statement is not true if we take all fluff into account, it turns out that majority of Imperial citizens live a decent life - the one you woudl expect fro m20'th or 21'st century Human.
The only difference would be planet where they live, same like Earth today: a men living in US or Europe will have more better live then someone living in let's say some African state that is in war or North Korea.
Imperium has 3 very simple rules for each planet: pay tax, venerate the Emperor, obey the Imperial law.
You can do pretty much everything else and they will not bother you because of that, even we wouldn't fell being under oppression if we had Imperium to rule over us. On some planets you can even vote to choose planetary Governour.
The thing they say about the Imperium - some of it is true but most is over the top and thus not true - like "There is only war quote" when majority of Imperial worlds ( like 80 - 90% ) is not in any kind of warfare at all.
I agree. The codices clearly over-exaggerate the situation.
"In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same"
Melissia wrote: As bad as the Imperium is, Chaos is worse in every way.
When it's pissed off, sure, but all the time, I don't know. There are stable chaos worlds out there that seem not that different from an Imperial world. Look at Davin, Nurth, Laer, Istvann, Cadia. It's pretty obvious that some of the Planets where the Primarchs were bought up as well were places where Chaos had influence. There might not be many about now sure, but during the Great Crusade I think there would have been. Chaos went all skulls, death and spiky when things didn't start to go its way. Do worlds that fall to Chaos go this way because of Chaos or because of what the follower thinks their masters want.
When there's a Daemon invasion things do get nasty, because you have the warp spilling out every where and making things bendy.
I think one of the Ecclesiarchys big issues is that Chaos can be another choice for you and it can work to a degree, if it hasn't gone bendy for your world. Obviously the Chaos Gods aren't the only way to go if you succeed from the Imperium, you have the Tau for example.
Funny thing is "Magnus" who knows psykic manifestations more then anyone in the imperium - still doesn't consider chaos gods as "Gods" even after he realizes their power...
Is this before or after Magnus throws his lot in with them?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 11:19:13
DarthMarko wrote: What's the point of life when you are more opressed by those who protect you, than those who seek to destroy you ?
Actually this statement is not true if we take all fluff into account, it turns out that majority of Imperial citizens live a decent life - the one you woudl expect fro m20'th or 21'st century Human.
The only difference would be planet where they live, same like Earth today: a men living in US or Europe will have more better live then someone living in let's say some African state that is in war or North Korea.
Imperium has 3 very simple rules for each planet: pay tax, venerate the Emperor, obey the Imperial law.
You can do pretty much everything else and they will not bother you because of that, even we wouldn't fell being under oppression if we had Imperium to rule over us. On some planets you can even vote to choose planetary Governour.
The thing they say about the Imperium - some of it is true but most is over the top and thus not true - like "There is only war quote" when majority of Imperial worlds ( like 80 - 90% ) is not in any kind of warfare at all.
I think people from the hive worlds would disagree with you....I conisder only Ultramar as somehow acceptable and maybe some agri-worlds...
But you have a point in comparing 21century to a grimdark 40k - there are better places and there are hell places.....
Maybe I'm a little too much influenced by Kal Jericho comics....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/28 11:57:41
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant! 
I'm just mentioning that I felt like the initial post was unclear, and I had to read the entire thread to this point before I could understand what we were being asked. Dakka allows all kinds of users. Unfortunately, some of us are a little slower on the uptake than others and need a little help understanding complex issues.
The Greater Good 
4000 pts.
3000 pts.
2000 pts.
2000 pts.
themselves, the templars will continue their crusade for the great Emperor and the Imperium shall become legend once more 
...
