Finished my first game with Chaos Daemons vs Necrons. My opponent rolled with a Destroyer Lord Wraithstar and a C'tan Shard together with a unit of Tomb Blades and two min squad warrior units. I used a Lord of Change, two units of min Daemonettes, and two Jugger squads, all with basic heralds attached. The Wraithstar murderized a jugger squad and was eating a second squad of 'ettes when the game ended. It was Purge the Alien and he stomped me in VP.

Warp Storm
Wasn't that big a deal. At all. When it wasn't buffing me or hurting him I could use an Instrument to reroll the bad effect. You're probably not going to want to be running more than two gods though.

Daemonic Instability
I finished off my own Jugger squad with a bad roll, but otherwise it's now quite as bad as I would have thought. Very dice dependent though, and rewards blobs of dudes to win combat and soak up the unsavable wounds (makes FNP nice if you run Nurgle...)

Daemonic Rewards
It's not very random when you either get lucky on the roll or get a really decent magic weapon or artifact as default. You basically win-win, the only question is how much and what you are expecting to fight.

Daemonic Loci
Most of these are not good. The Exalted Loci are basically all you should ever really pick from what I can see right now.

Daemonic Gifts
Dark Excommunication makes daemon melee weapons turn off. Also note Daemonic Gifts covers steeds!

Lord of Change
The change to only psychic attacks has REALLY hurt him. Especially if ran the old LoC with Breath of Chaos and such you will really feel the lack of decent shooting attacks. It is now almost mandatory to make him Mastery 3 so that if you get one of the decent Tzeentch powers you can use that and the Divination ability. Prescience is amazing. Getting Prescience and rolling Infernal Gateway is blah because you would want to use both and can't at Mastery 2. I wanted to give him The Eternal Blade as an Exalted Award but couldn't afford it - it seems to be one of the best weapon awards for him though (ST+1, +D3 WS, I and A!)

He got locked into combat with the C'tan pretty early but he held his own quite well. The 5++ save really didn't do him any favors though. Basically a wash compared to the old version, but far less useful flying around now. He's much killier in melee though.

Daemonettes
Amazingly good for 9 points a model. Especially with either Prescience or the Exalted Locus of Beguilement. Anything but a Wraithstar would be murderized. Against a wraithstar ... yeah not fun. Especially since he can mind shackle your poor heralds or instant death them easily in a challenge (even the Wraiths instant death a Herald of Slaanesh so he's basically dead man walking ...). Lack of eternal warrior makes Heralds of Tzeentch and Slaanesh VERY VERY sad pandas. Luckily they don't do a whole lot for the unit outside of the Loci so it's just annoying when they bite it. Don't put too many points into them.

Their S3 and T3 really hurts against MEQ though. I will probably stick with Seekers for Daemonette action and use shooty Horrors next time.

Bloodcrushers
Garbage. They are fast but die quick because of that extremely unimpressive 5++. I had a single crusher survive to charge against a unit of Necron warriors. Then they just overwhelmed it with wounds. It's only T4. NOT worth 45 points each by any means. Get Seekers instead for the job they are supposed to do, those are absolutely amazing.

Run the artifact that gives a unit a 3++ inv in a big bloodcrusher squad or seeker squad. But besides that the codex IMO is poorly made. Overall the codex grade wise is C- at best. It has a double edged sword feeling to it but the side that bites you is sharper.

I can easily see a powerful Slaanesh / Khorne (harhar fluff aside bviously) army centered around close combat emerging from it. Many Seekers, Daemonettes and a Thirster + Keeper sounds like a mean army with a difficult threat saturation.

Heck, you can even run a fully-khorne FMC spam army w. Thirsters as HQ and khornate D.Princes as HS. I predict this army to pop up at a high-tier tournament and start taking names.

The Grimoire of True Names (which can buff your dudes to 3++ for a turn) has a 2 in 6 chance of reducing you to a 6++. Hardly worth counting on, and you may not have the points to get that and more generally useful hellforged artefacts like the Portalglyph.

If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it. Next game I'm going to be using Soulgrinders, Screamers (which are still pretty good), and Seekers to try and kill his deathstar ASAP and jam his shooty units. A Soulgrinder with Daemon of Nurgle (only one that seems to be advantageous for them) and Phlegm is only 180 points and seems more survivable and useful than most other Heavy options - although I do admit Burning Chariots can throw out some scary torrents before it dies like a dog to a sideways glance from anything with S4+

It sounds like these are the stars you saw.
* Daemonettes
* Seekers

Your Daemonettes did not have the punch alone to solve this problem of wraithstar. Daemonettes cannot chew up a deathstar unit. Is that an accurate assessment?

Wraiths seem to be difficult. Now, if you combine an assault with Daemonettes and shooting from a Herald with Horrors, that might do it. ML3 Herald, 1 in Tzeentch power, 2 in Divination. If you're lucky, misfortune on the wraiths, and Prescience on Horrors/Daemonettes.

I notice Epidimius no longer works with CSM Plague Marines.
That'll upset some of the CSM players I know.

 marv335 wrote:
I notice Epidimius no longer works with CSM Plague Marines.
That'll upset some of the CSM players I know.

I think everyone should have seen that one coming.

Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

 Mindshred wrote:

 marv335 wrote:
I notice Epidimius no longer works with CSM Plague Marines.
That'll upset some of the CSM players I know.

I think everyone should have seen that one coming.

Yep, breaking the difference between those dedicated to a god, and those who are made from said god in the stupidest fashion possible.

Is it just me or does the The Two Heads of Fate rule that Kairos has not actually do anything?

He knows all the Change powers, and can get one power from each of the Biomancy, Telepathy, Pyromancy and Divination tables. Is it just so he can't use a Telepathy/Biomancy power in the same turn he uses a Pyromancy/Divination power, because that's pretty much all it does. It's a whole paragraph for what amounts to pretty much nothing. Why not just give him 1 power from each table and avoid writing a special rule that isn't really a rule and ain't all that special?

I'm also trying to figure out how Bloodcrushers managed to lose their 3+ save yet went up in points.

Bloodcrushers, in addition to losing almost all their survivability, became Cavalry. That's why their point cost went up.

Definitely going to be bringing 12 Long Fangs and a Vindicator from now on.

I'm flipping trough the new codex atm. As far as I can see Nurgle deamons dont have fnp? Only if you get the fnp loci on a hq and join the unit?

Yes you have to have a herald with the loci to do it, which isn't hard since you can take 4 heralds in one HQ slot. Good times.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

 undertow wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

This. He lost eternal warrior. All of his attacks became psychic powers, meaning he will likely kill himself with perils. His invulnerable halfed, he no longer has rerolls, so his save technically -quartered-. He doesnt give rerolls to those around him which was why he was worth those points in the first place...

It's really quite sad. I'm glad I never bought him. Oh, but you get to reroll one dice per turn! *twinklie-eyes* Totally worth that price




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side, nurgling's get a 4+ cover wherever they are (Swarm's gives stealth, and they have shrouded for being nurgle) and a 2+ cover in any terrain, with move through cover and infiltrate. So, infiltrate them 18 inches from the enemy, in a big screen, and everything behind it will get a 4+ cover save since you are shooting through a unit, and the nurgling's will have one naturally. 4+. 4+ everywhere. At least for a turn or two, anyway xD

How's it looking for a monster mash list?

Evileyes wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

This. He lost eternal warrior. All of his attacks became psychic powers, meaning he will likely kill himself with perils. His invulnerable halfed, he no longer has rerolls, so his save technically -quartered-. He doesnt give rerolls to those around him which was why he was worth those points in the first place...

It's really quite sad. I'm glad I never bought him. Oh, but you get to reroll one dice per turn! *twinklie-eyes* Totally worth that price




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side, nurgling's get a 4+ cover wherever they are (Swarm's gives stealth, and they have shrouded for being nurgle) and a 2+ cover in any terrain, with move through cover and infiltrate. So, infiltrate them 18 inches from the enemy, in a big screen, and everything behind it will get a 4+ cover save since you are shooting through a unit, and the nurgling's will have one naturally. 4+. 4+ everywhere. At least for a turn or two, anyway xD

I hate to be really cynical but its quite obvious that most popular models were nerfed in a effort to drive sales. Fatey, Epidemius, The Changeling, Blood Crushers, Skull Taker, Flamers & Screamers all got the nerf bat to a shocking levels.

What units got buffs in this codex, well out the ones that people didn't buy before, Daemonettes, Karanak, Seekers & Soul Grinders,

-End Rant-

As for the codex as a whole its a strange beast. I think 2 Heralds are a must in most lists, they are a force multiplier for the large Infantry blocks which is going to be the optimum use.
The GUO is going to be a total beast if it gets Iron Arm off and when used wisely will have nothing to fear but poison weapons.
The LoC looks quite useful, as does the KoS.

Mono God builds limit the random effects of the Warp Storm chart to an effect, taking a 3 -4 God Army is running a risk.

Its going to take a fair few games before the dust settles, as it has been a huge over all to how this army works.


EDIT - Swarms don't have Sheath USR

A squad of 20 daemonettes with a level 2 or 3 PvP herald with invisibility wound be phenomenal.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

Evileyes wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

This. He lost eternal warrior. All of his attacks became psychic powers, meaning he will likely kill himself with perils. His invulnerable halfed, he no longer has rerolls, so his save technically -quartered-. He doesnt give rerolls to those around him which was why he was worth those points in the first place...

It's really quite sad. I'm glad I never bought him. Oh, but you get to reroll one dice per turn! *twinklie-eyes* Totally worth that price




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side, nurgling's get a 4+ cover wherever they are (Swarm's gives stealth, and they have shrouded for being nurgle) and a 2+ cover in any terrain, with move through cover and infiltrate. So, infiltrate them 18 inches from the enemy, in a big screen, and everything behind it will get a 4+ cover save since you are shooting through a unit, and the nurgling's will have one naturally. 4+. 4+ everywhere. At least for a turn or two, anyway xD

I hate to be really cynical but its quite obvious that most popular models were nerfed in a effort to drive sales. Fatey, Epidemius, The Changeling, Blood Crushers, Skull Taker, Flamers & Screamers all got the nerf bat to a shocking levels.

What units got buffs in this codex, well out the ones that people didn't buy before, Daemonettes, Karanak, Seekers & Soul Grinders,

-End Rant-

As for the codex as a whole its a strange beast. I think 2 Heralds are a must in most lists, they are a force multiplier for the large Infantry blocks which is going to be the optimum use.
The GUO is going to be a total beast if it gets Iron Arm off and when used wisely will have nothing to fear but poison weapons.
The LoC looks quite useful, as does the KoS.

Mono God builds limit the random effects of the Warp Storm chart to an effect, taking a 3 -4 God Army is running a risk.

Its going to take a fair few games before the dust settles, as it has been a huge over all to how this army works.


EDIT - Swarms don't have Sheath USR

Damn, you are right about swarms, i'm sure they used to :(

Damn

In general I think people are comparing the statline of the old/new Daemons too directly. I am going off of what I have heard as my codex has not arrived yet, but I do not think you can directly compare a lot of the units.

For example, Crushers lost a lot of survivability but gained a wound, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack and ignore cover. As someone who played with Fiends/Seekers before these guys are going to be REALLY fast. You cannot stupidly drop them in front of an entire gunline now and expect them to survive (-1 T, Lost EW, lost 3+) but they are pretty close to on par with Fiends overall.

Throw in the chance to generate Endurace as a psychic power now and there are some really interesting synergies (5+ Save, 5+ FNP, Eternal Warrior, It Will Not Die). In fact, given the incorporation of Biomancy powers through allies and the native daemon units (Heralds, Greater Daemons, Princes), I cannot conceive how Crushers were not going to have to change.

Fateweaver is a different animal now too - but being a psyker has some very interesting abilities. Pyromancy has Fiery Form to give you a 4++, Divination has Precog to reroll everything, Biomancy has Endurance and Iron Arm.

I will say this, I plan to bring a CSM Sorcerer with every Daemon army I play to provide either Telepathy or Biomancy buffs. Even better if Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are reasonable - throw 3 Mastery levels on them, run them naked otherwise and turn them into a force multiplier.


Edit: Flamers are not bad - they just are different and Screamer return to being a niche unit - anyone who purchased 27 of them without the expectation that they would be brought in line with their costs was being silly and a jerk to anyone they played.

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

For example, Crushers lost a lot of survivability but gained a wound, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack and ignore cover.

Doesn't have Rage/counter, only has furious charge due to DoK rule.

You are thinking of MoK.

Also that wound does nothing really, seeing as you can now die to powerfists, missles, and all sorts of various armament. IG will easily put out enough to deal with them.

Bloodhorror wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

You can only take the 4 heralds as 1 hq if daemons are the primary detatchment. As this was specifically worded this way I would not.hold my breath on this or the not joining ICs between CD and CSM. Seems at this point they want to make sure the imperium retains the strongest ally rules.

What i've been discovering, while playing about with my codex, is that greater daemon's, are going to be godly. Especially with 2 greater rewards (Which I find to be better than exalted rewards.)

Maybe it's the nurgle in me, but giving a 5 or 6 wound model, 3+ armour, or 4+ feel no pain, or rerolls to invulnerables...Gawd. That's epic. And there is no one you could roll and be totally dissapointed, all the greater rewards are...well...great xD

Even if you found your gift less than usefull, you could swap it for the exalted weapon of the god, which all seem to be at least moderately useful, though perhaps less so for greater daemons of nurgle

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

For example, Crushers lost a lot of survivability but gained a wound, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack and ignore cover.

Doesn't have Rage/counter, only has furious charge due to DoK rule.

You are thinking of MoK.

Also that wound does nothing really, seeing as you can now die to powerfists, missles, and all sorts of various armament. IG will easily put out enough to deal with them.

I'm sad panda over Crushers, will probably still include some and try to figure out a way of using them as I love the models.

Wonder if there's any chance of that statline not including the jugger bonus? That would fix them mostly. Have to wait on the no doubt imminent FAQ.

Lesser Rewards
Magic Weapon - Default is an AP2 Master-crafted weapon. Not too shabby, but worth 10 points? Khorne gets an AP2 decapitating axe, Slaanesh gets a AP5 Rending sword that can cause additional wounds on a failed initiative test. Nurgle gets a ST+1 that causes additional wounds on a failed Toughness test. Tzeentch gets a ST+2 AP4 Concussive staff that detonates people if it kills them. The stand-outs look to be Tzeentch (S5 for the Herald) and Khorne (more possible Instant Death hits). The Slaanesh one is strange as everyone already HAS Rending in close combat, (might need a FAQ). Verdict: Good to excellent for the price. Maybe avoid if Slaanesh (unless Rending gets replaced) and Nurgle (Toughness tests are notorious wastes). Verdict: Decent deal (Slaanesh and Nurgle pick up the AP2 default) to Good (Tz and Kh weapon)
Burning Blood - The daemon causes d3 S4 AP5 No Cover hits if it takes a wound in close combat. This is normally pretty useless on Heralds but it's d3 hits per wound suffered, which could be somewhat useful if you just need to saturate saves or clear a few more bodies when you might die anyways. It will probably get its points back if you had a few more points to spend and already grabbed the magic weapon (but in that case why didn't you get a greater reward instead?). Verdict: Hard to justify.
Cleaving Strike - To-Hit rolls of 6 are made at 2x ST. Best when combined with Daemons of Slaanesh and/or you have an AP2 weapon. Heralds of Khorne strike at S10 if this procs. Makes Slaanesh heralds a more respectable S6 so they can actually hurt big guys they get stuck against. Verdict: Surprisingly useful.
Corrosive Breath - S5, AP5 Armourbane template. Not too shabby for 10 points if you happen to roll it! Provides your non-Horror daemon unit with a shooting attack, decent anti-transport (average roll will pen Armor 11) and a (GASP!) Overwatch capability! Verdict: Very good.
Spell Breaker - Adamantium Will. Pretty damn useless. Verdict: Bad.
Warp Breath - S8 AP4 Soul Blaze with 18" range. Considering the impressive BS of even Khorne daemon heralds this can be a surprisingly effective anti-tank shot or a way of laying down a blaze token and any extra hits is just gravy. Think of it this way: at least you get to shoot something in the shooting phase and may pop a transport before you charge the fleshbags inside! Verdict: Good.
Warp Strider - +1 to reserve rolls. Very situational unless you needed that push to justify deep striking the unit. Verdict: Almost always bad.

I'm really sore about Fiends right now. I finally finished my 12 fiends on Thursday. On Friday I bought the codex and now am ready to rage quit. So we now have -1S, -2A?!?, -3Ld, but gained 1W, 1I. Weak. We lose Rending and Hit& Run? The new abilities are horrible in comparison. In addition they increased the price of the unit by 5 points per model? I also can't comprehend how they don't have venomous sting as an upgrade option. The model has a giant scorpion tail on it!!! (Although we may have a new model coming since the previous model is now listed as Unavailable on the GW site.

The fateweaver, bloodcrushers, and flamers that I recently bought, as mention by another poster, are pretty much unplayable now. I agree with everything that was said about them in this thread. I rejoiced when I read that Bloodcrushers are now calvary. Then I saw that they lost their 3+ armor save. Lame.

I'm very upset that Nurgle units lost FnP as a base ability. They can buy it as a loci on a per unit basis, but plague marines still have it as a base ability? They should have at least kept it on GUO and Ku'Gath.

The more I read this Codex that madder I get at GW. I seriously want to send all my models and this codex back to GW and demand my money back. (as if that would ever work) I agree with the above. This codex is just a kick in the junk calculated to do nothing more than boost sales on the unpopular models. Oh look Nurglings might be worth fielding now you say. Well it just so happens that we just released a new model kit for them.

Could someone clarify something for me though? Say I give my great unclean one a balesword. It's strength user, poisoned 4+,
Does that mean I can't wound on a 2+ if my strength would allow it, or does it mean 4+ is the minimum I wound on, and I get the poison just for the rerolls?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quaden wrote:
I'm really sore about Fiends right now. I finally finished my 12 fiends on Thursday. On Friday I bought the codex and now am ready to rage quit. So we now have -1S, -2A?!?, -3Ld, but gained 1W, 1I. Weak. We lose Rending and Hit& Run? The new abilities are horrible in comparison. In addition they increased the price of the unit by 5 points per model? I also can't comprehend how they don't have venomous sting as an upgrade option. The model has a giant scorpion tail on it!!! (Although we may have a new model coming since the previous model is now listed as Unavailable on the GW site.

The fateweaver, bloodcrushers, and flamers that I recently bought, as mention by another poster, are pretty much unplayable now. I agree with everything that was said about them in this thread. I rejoiced when I read that Bloodcrushers are now calvary. Then I saw that they lost their 3+ armor save. Lame.

I'm very upset that Nurgle units lost FnP as a base ability. They can buy it as a loci on a per unit basis, but plague marines still have it as a base ability? They should have at least kept it on GUO and Ku'Gath.

The more I read this Codex that madder I get at GW. I seriously want to send all my models and this codex back to GW and demand my money back. (as if that would ever work) I agree with the above. This codex is just a kick in the junk calculated to do nothing more than boost sales on the unpopular models. Oh look Nurglings might be worth fielding now you say. Well it just so happens that we just released a new model kit for them.

Greater reward's can give your GUO, a chance to get 4+ feel no pain, 3+ armour, and/or rerolls to invulnerables. Biomancy, can also give him feel no pain, it will not die, eternal warrior, +d3 toughness and strength. Lot's of good replacement's for feel no pain for them

Fiends automatically have Rending attacks from Daemon of Slaanesh. They are still pretty terrible though. Their fluff mentions hit and running but they lack the USR.

For Poisoned, you roll at the poison number or less. See the USR in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, p. 40. If your S is => the T of the target you also re-roll failed Wounds.

krazykishere wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

You can only take the 4 heralds as 1 hq if daemons are the primary detatchment. As this was specifically worded this way I would not.hold my breath on this or the not joining ICs between CD and CSM. Seems at this point they want to make sure the imperium retains the strongest ally rules.

feth.

Yes but the rewards are random. You can't pay the 20pts and choose to give him FNP. Yeah the worst you'll end up with for your 20 points is a Balesword but still I think the whole random boon idea is pretty lame. It might be alright for casual games but for anything competitive its just too random.

(Yes, I do see the irony that I have been arguing for 2 years with my CSM opponent that Timewarp makes you re-roll all dice not just misses because Chaos does not guarantee a better result it just gives you a chance at another outcome. And that I am now arguing for a little more stability in the Chaos Army. In my defense the later FAQ by GW proved me right on that point.)

Bloodhorror wrote:

krazykishere wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

You can only take the 4 heralds as 1 hq if daemons are the primary detatchment. As this was specifically worded this way I would not.hold my breath on this or the not joining ICs between CD and CSM. Seems at this point they want to make sure the imperium retains the strongest ally rules.

feth.

I'm pretty sure they're doing this for all 6th ed dexes now. Look at Dark Angels - you can ally, sure, but you can't take Deathwing or Ravenwing as scoring units. At the moment, there's little incentive to ally with DA; rather, DA should take other Imperial forces as allies to get the full benefit. I just figure this is the sort of thing we'll see more of as 6th goes along, since as it is the Allies rule is more about power gaming and hole-plugging than fluff.

I hope so, but the thing is at the moment, i see plenty of players who like Flavour of the Month armies using a large IG Blob Squad, with Azreal in there. 50 Guardsmen with a 4+ Invun.


Its a pita to get through....

Well, at first glance the new dex looked really dissapointing.
But I think you can get some great results if you let the army work together and dont just rely on separate units to win separate battles.

-Hordes of troops is now possible because of point drop. Sure they die easily enough to about everything the enemy throw at you, but thats bullets not aiming for your MCs.

-expencive monsters are actually dangerous to the enemy now, and hopefully the opponent is busy shooting down your troops. Any skyfire quad gun will blast your MCs no matter where you hide though.

-lots of stuf to nerf enemy elite units, here is the real key, let your abilities mess with the opponent, drop enemy I by 5 or let them move just D3". Psy power boost, deepstrike and icons will let you turn the course of the battle to your own choosing.

I think this army has potential to be a rewarding ensamble, but it will take some hard work and your luckiest die to figure it out, I think.

The over all problem is not what you can do to the enemy, but what the enemy can do to you. Sad stats and crappy armour is the main thing to figure out a cure for.

Quaden wrote:
I'm really sore about Fiends right now. I finally finished my 12 fiends on Thursday. On Friday I bought the codex and now am ready to rage quit. So we now have -1S, -2A?!?, -3Ld, but gained 1W, 1I. Weak. We lose Rending and Hit& Run? The new abilities are horrible in comparison. In addition they increased the price of the unit by 5 points per model? I also can't comprehend how they don't have venomous sting as an upgrade option. The model has a giant scorpion tail on it!!! (Although we may have a new model coming since the previous model is now listed as Unavailable on the GW site.

They have the Daemon of Slaanesh rule, so they still have Rending. And go a bit faster. I've only played one game with them, my unit of six took out a five strong Wraith unit, lost four wounds. Took three full turns of close combat. Probably some good rolls, but I'm still up in the air on them.

Quaden wrote:
The fateweaver, bloodcrushers, and flamers that I recently bought, as mention by another poster, are pretty much unplayable now. I agree with everything that was said about them in this thread. I rejoiced when I read that Bloodcrushers are now calvary. Then I saw that they lost their 3+ armor save. Lame.

Don't own Fateweaver, so I can only say that on the surface I'd agree. My bloodcrushers got hit by a Triarch Stalker and gunned down by one unit of Necro warriors to give up First Blood. Not looking to good so far. I only own six Flamers, but they were able to cause a good deal of havoc. They don't have the "auto-kill" label like before with all the Bloodthirsters and DP's of Khorne smashing into things. I deployed my Thirster and DP's to start to get assaults on turn two, flamers started in reserve. Was an explosion behind the Necron AGL on turn two.

Quaden wrote:
I'm very upset that Nurgle units lost FnP as a base ability. They can buy it as a loci on a per unit basis, but plague marines still have it as a base ability? They should have at least kept it on GUO and Ku'Gath.

You can get four heralds now, combined with shrouded. Dropped as objective campers in cover, my guess is they're even more durable than before FnP got nerfed by 6th edition.

Quaden wrote:
The more I read this Codex that madder I get at GW. I seriously want to send all my models and this codex back to GW and demand my money back. (as if that would ever work) I agree with the above. This codex is just a kick in the junk calculated to do nothing more than boost sales on the unpopular models. Oh look Nurglings might be worth fielding now you say. Well it just so happens that we just released a new model kit for them.

Play some games first, but if you're looking to unload them, a lot of Daemon players would be happy to give them a home.

I like the Loci the Heralds bring. And I'm thinking the primaris gifts can be nice for the you choppy troop units. Maybe two lesser to try and get a shooty attack as well? Ran the changeling, lvl 1 psyker just doesn't cut it. Might run him as a Herald and go lvl 3 to get more out of it. Three DP's of Khorne along with a Thirster and Heralds in chariots will be interesting to try out. I only own six seekers, so apart from the str 8 shot that I got off when they outflanked, I just don't have enough yet to mak them worthwhile. My 9 screamers are still good. They just don't mak you feel like a jerk when you play them.

I'm pretty happy with the new Codex. At the very least it's a fun casual army with lots of quirks that we still need to learn. I'm extremely doubtful it's very competitive against the top Codexes without some key FAQ changes though.

I appreciate the notes Panzer.

I will of course give Daemons a try once I get over being mad. I'm sure once I've played a few games things won't look as bad to me as they do just reading over the codex. Its just easier to rant about the negatives rather than focus on the pluses we do have. I do agree with some of the nerfs that happened. The previous incarnation of Epidemius, for example, was OP in my opinion (which never stopped me from abusing him).

I do like that our units have more options and an officer upgrade for all of our troop units now. The Changlings new ability was interesting to me and more in flavor with the concept of the character. At first I thought it would be pretty cool to have him morph to match, say a terminator squad. Then I remembered a Changling would be buried in a unit of nice squishy pink horrors and decided not to ever try that. I thought on read through that the Masque seemed to be an improvement over her previous self. I would be interested in giving her a test run.

On a personal note I suppose I'll have to crawl out of my comfort zone and actually learn something about psykers now.

From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness. I don't have the codex, but I really hate randomness. Sometimes, it can be fun, like rolling to see what the objective is. Sometimes, though, it hurts the game, and when the chart you're rolling on varies between marginally useful or stupidly pointless (Warlord traits in BRB) or the game (chaos boon table in C:CSM, warlord traits in C:CSM - did anyone really want anything other than the infiltrate trait?), it becomes a bother and a chore and only frustrates players more. If I were to run a tournament, I would allow all warlord traits to be picked.

Charge distance being random is another issue altogether, so I won't mention it here.

The masque stands out as a fun and cheap hq to ally into my CSM

By the way, I notice "the masque" and "blue scribes" ar not listed as options among the "4 for 1" herald deal. Or am I just missing something?

The BS are really pointless in this codex, so no tears wasted there, but its a terrible blow to The Masque IMO.
As vulnerable as she is Im not wasting a HQ slot for that. To bad, her abilities sonds good enough mess up some enemy ranks.

The new Daemon warlord traits are far more useful than the BRB ones. I also don't think that daemons are as random as people think - most of the Warp Storm results benefit you unless you run a four-god army, and the random gifts have very nice default results if you don't get exactly what you want.

The only problematic part comes in with their psychic powers (specifically, unlucky Deny the Witch and Runes of Warding), but everyone that wants to go psyker heavy has the issue of not rolling up the perfect combination of powers or facing Eldar.

If you want a serious problem daemons will have from now on - it's that almost all their units aside from the big HQs are glass cannons (or glass nerfbats) with terrible toughness and no Eternal Warrior.

2 wounds, 5+ save. She will drop like a fly. It's a shame :(

Especially since she is -still- not an independant character :(

 McNinja wrote:
From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness.

Because randomness in a game based off dice rolls is a bad thing.

Oh wait.

The odd thing is, lot's of people seem to be taking random, as bad. I guess in other thing's it is bad, but in this book, it seem's every outcome is good, but some are better.

So say, when I roll for the gift's, my reaction will be.

"Oh, allright, I can work with that"

or

"OMG yes, just what I needed!"

I'd imagine part of it is a reaction to things like the Warlord traits tables from the main rulebook, where you frequently get things that are completely useless to your army.

Important Question: Are you required to take god-specific powers like the csm dex? Or can I roll 3x on rule book powers for a lvl 3 Herald or Greater Daemon?

EDIT: Nevermind answered in the other thread. Looks like you can take all rule book powers.

Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

I'm thinking of running them with the 3+ poison as well. Personally, I think I still prefer screamers, but a unit of 6 or so Plague drones, will be Incredibily hard to shift from anywhere.

I went into my LGS earlier today to check out the daemons book and I adore the amount of random stuff in there! Sure lots of units took the nerf bat to the crotch but as people have mentioned, if you take the right random stuff, it really won't be that bad. (I must admit I only really play for fun though...)

And surely it suits the CHAOS Daemons to be chaotic? can't wait to see what happens with orks! :O

 BarBoBot wrote:
Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

I have to confess, over the last few hours I've started to look more at what I CAN do now, as opposed to focusing on what has been taken away, and I feel more optimistic. My daemons tend to be more about models I like, a good percentage are non GW, and I would like my favourite models to also be good on the tsble, but I think I can work with the book. It's a great palette cleanser from my marines that's for sure!

 Shandara wrote:


Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

Mutilators and Warp Talons would like to have a talk about this - as would the Nephilim Fighter.

I played against the new daemons today in a 1v1v1. The daemon player is a VERY good player but wanted to try a new list then usual, so we ended up doing 1500pts each. His first turn took ages! All those charts and powers to roll for! He played a tzeench list with fateweaver, a prince level 3, 2 big units of horrors with herelds and a khorne detachment. All the psykic powers where all very strong yet id say balanced. I have a feeling he it would of been a LOT more in his favour if i didnt have runes of warding,but i did...and they had a field day! By the end of the game he had periled'd (?) 12 times! Fatey got 4 wounds done on himself, but not before personally wreaking a dark angles army with just him and the prince, who peril'd 3 times.

The artifacts rolls dont seem any too over powered, and flamers have beem nerfed. I think fatey has been over nerfed, he should keep his 3++. I like the new horrors, very cool. Winds of chaos (when he remembered...) didn't change the game overmuch, but id like them to be roll once and its that for the entire game.

My inly complaint is that when blessings and meledictions and loci's and winds and artifacts going around its hard for even the player to know whats going on, let alone the oponent. In the end we had to write down every unit, what powers it had, what mastery it was, what artifacts, and any temperary blessings/curses. It was like plaaying cludo, im not saying its bad, but maybe they could simplify it somehow?

Okay Noob question.

This new codex keeps referring to psyker disciplines. I've only played the previous edition Chaos Daemons so I know little about pyskers. The only disciplines I see in this book are Change, Plague, and Excess. In what book do I find disciplines such as Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy, and Divination? Am I overlooking them in the BRB or do I have to buy the psyker powers deck to get the rules for them? I noticed a chart of which armies have access to each discipline in another forum but it was written in another language and I didn't recognize the book. People are telling me some of my lost power complaints are covered by abilities in these disciplines and I can't find anything to reference.

Edit: NM. I found them in the appendix shortly after posting. I kept looking in the front around the psyker rules. Carry on.

Quaden wrote:
Okay Noob question.

This new codex keeps referring to psyker disciplines. I've only played the previous edition Chaos Daemons so I know little about pyskers. The only disciplines I see in this book are Change, Plague, and Excess. In what book do I find disciplines such as Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy, and Divination? Am I overlooking them in the BRB or do I have to buy the psyker powers deck to get the rules for them? I noticed a chart of which armies have access to each discipline in another forum but it was written in another language and I didn't recognize the book. People are telling me some of my lost power complaints are covered by abilities in these disciplines and I can't find anything to reference.

They're all listed in the main rulebook for 6th edition.

 Shandara wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

mutilators, warptalons, nelaphin....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Shandara wrote:


Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

Mutilators and Warp Talons would like to have a talk about this - as would the Nephilim Fighter.

and then i scroll down

Honestly, as a guy who never played net-lists, took 2 units of seekers, occasional flesh hounds, Soul Grinders (when I wasn't preferring princes), and a bunch of Daemonettes running around, as well as a Bloodthirster and a Keeper of Secrets...this book is sounding like it was built with me in mind. I'm actually excited to get this on Monday, after close to a year long hiatus from GW.

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness.

Because randomness in a game based off dice rolls is a bad thing.

Oh wait.

No, you're right, the player should only have marginal control over the game. It's perfectly ok that the player can lose (no matter the skill) because of a few bad dice rolls on random tables that completely feth his army right up without him actually being able to do anything about it.

Taking more and more control away from the player is NEVER ok.

The player should craft the army to their liking and play with that, not have to craft a list around random-ass tables and hope for the best every game.

Anyone tried using the hearld of Slaanesh and giving her a whip and psychic power that makes oppenents inititive -5? Thus every time they fail a save agaisnt it they must make an inititive test.

I have not gotten my book in the mail yet, but I have been liking most of what I have been reading online. My one question so far is what order do you roll for powers and gifts? Simultaneously, or one before the other? Because that could change a lot of the strategy.

 McNinja wrote:
Taking more and more control away from the player makes it more cinematic!

Fixed.

 Necrosis wrote:
Anyone tried using the hearld of Slaanesh and giving her a whip and psychic power that makes oppenents inititive -5? Thus every time they fail a save agaisnt it they must make an inititive test.

The whip is just a 2d6 assault weapon. Witstealer is the I-test weapon, and it's a melee weapon.

Fiends are more reliable


Also, what upgrade do people think will be good for a KoS, so far I'm think 2 greater rewards for an added chance of survivability, but is there anything better? Are extra mastery levels worth it?

Has anyone noticed yet that you can make Fateweaver unkillable?

Take the Truenames thinggy on a DP, and Fateweaver as your HQ. Every turn, hit Fateweaver with your DP truenameamajiggy, if it fails, use big birds reroll power. 8/9 chance to get a rerollable 2++.

It ain't cheap, but A Flying MC with prescience, and 2 shooty tzeentch powers that you have to shoot down and then assault to nullify effectively. You make the DP a DoN, and hide him in ruins...

Cute.

The only threat in the game I might consider the monolith's Portal of Exile would be worth the ink in it's write up to deal with.

 LordRogalDorn wrote:
I have not gotten my book in the mail yet, but I have been liking most of what I have been reading online. My one question so far is what order do you roll for powers and gifts? Simultaneously, or one before the other? Because that could change a lot of the strategy.

Determine warlord trait and rewards/gifts simultaneously, and then psychic powers after that. Obviously you won't roll your warlord trait and every gift in the same throw, but they are all in the same sub-phase of setting up the game. I would probably roll warlord trait (not allowed to change this... it is what it is), then rewards/gifts (you now have the option to switch gifts from the rolled reward to the primaris reward if it better suits your overall strategy), and then obviously then proceed to psychic powers as defined in the rules.

To clarify rewards/gifts: Lets say we have 2 characters getting rewards... Characters A and B. Character A has a lesser and greater, so rolls on the lesser table (rolls 4), then rolls on the greater table (rolls 2), then after all rewards have been rolled for is allowed to switch out any rolled reward for the default primaris reward (so, let's say Char A switches greater reward 2 for default greater reward). Once character A is finalized, you then proceed to the next character. Character B purchased 2 lesser rewards. He rolls on the lesser table (rolls 4), then rolls again on the lesser table (rolls 4), but he can't be assigned two of the same reward, so he has to immediately roll for the second reward again (rolls 6), and decides to keep those rewards. You can have two or more of the same reward in your army overall, but can't have two of the same reward on any single character.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:



Also, what upgrade do people think will be good for a KoS, so far I'm think 2 greater rewards for an added chance of survivability, but is there anything better? Are extra mastery levels worth it?

im not impressed with slaanesh magic, but a lucky roll on telepathy for invisibility would be great for this army. Could be fixed with heralds though and Keepers should perhaps play the low point angle rather than focus on mastery levels.
The whip reward sounds like a must have, so two rolls on greater rewards sounds like a great deal.

Seems interesting.
Waiting for the new book to turn up but i can see im going to have to shell out yet again to change my armies around -_-

I run mono khorne and mono tzeentch, and by the seems of it, both took a huge hit.

So, do i shelf them for a few years?
Or do i pay out on them to re-arrange everything, or use that money to start up a nurgle army? -_-

How are the Beasts of Nurgle looking?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Taking more and more control away from the player makes me want to create house rules to disregard much or all of the randomness!

Fixed.

Double fixed

 McNinja wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness.

Because randomness in a game based off dice rolls is a bad thing.

Oh wait.

No, you're right, the player should only have marginal control over the game. It's perfectly ok that the player can lose (no matter the skill) because of a few bad dice rolls on random tables that completely feth his army right up without him actually being able to do anything about it.

Taking more and more control away from the player is NEVER ok.

The player should craft the army to their liking and play with that, not have to craft a list around random-ass tables and hope for the best every game.

Yeah there's a difference between a game decided by a thousand dice rolls, and a game decided by 3 dice rolls. I don't like the randomness so will probably from now on simply use my horrors/heralds as allies. Shame since I'd love to splash out some Tzeentch goodness. I may buy some anyway simply because they're so fun to paint.

Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

Well just thumbed through the book. Wow, underwhelmed at best. I'm sure my expectations were to high. I'll have to look into some horde builds or something interesting.

What's so good about the Whip of Dispair? I keep getting told it's a must have?

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

what was that? Bad stuff? Yeah. Bad stuff. The game, while slightly random, is a game of percentages and dice. You riled hundreds of dice during a norm game, but those don't necessarily determine the outcome of your game. A dead warlord won't ruin your day, an but having a unit wiped by the demonic instability rule would. Warlord traits are cool, until you roll one that does not affect your army in any way and you opponent rolls one that greatly benefits his army. The game isn't random. You can make guesses based on the percent of likeliness of something to happen that that thing will happen, like hitting with a space marine in shooting. But when there's an equal chance to gain all of your wounds back or lose several wounds and possibly give a kp to your opponent because of a bad roll, that's stupid.

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

Not sure if serious...

My gaming group picks Warlord traits as well... we roll for psychic powers still, but I don't imagine it's that cheesy. Seriously, it's awesome and really makes 40k more strategic.

It could be worse, imagine if you had a slightly higher than 1 in 6 chance of getting absolutely nothing for your points.

well, it certainly looks like time to hang up my fateweaver stripes.... Loved that guy, ran him literally for 2 and half years but sounds like I'll be shelving him for some GUO's. (maybe I can just repaint fateweaver green?)

I'm still interested to see what I can do with bloodcrushers. I have like 12 of them sitting around somewhere along with 9 flamers and 12 fiends. So troops wise? Get more nurgle? (only got 10 plague bearers) got 10 daemonnettes, got like 18 seekers so I'm in buisness still? got like 30 bloodletters so I might just make a game of this dex yet! (can't wait till my book gets here)

Just please someone answer me this: I built like 4 daemon princess (yes, they are chicks) in the past, will I get to still use them all in a list or is that gone now and I'll probably be subbing them in as heralds? (40mm bases swap?)

Also, is there any skyfire in the codex at all currently? Seems like if we have to go all heralds, where does that leave any FMC cause a single aegis +quad gun just doesn't cut it now a days in todays days of fliers.

Cant say random tables bother me too much, it certainly encourages you to try different tactics which I think can only be a good thing.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

Not sure if serious...

My gaming group picks Warlord traits as well... we roll for psychic powers still, but I don't imagine it's that cheesy. Seriously, it's awesome and really makes 40k more strategic.

so DE can guarentee Night Fighting First turn, and get a free turn of shooting?
so CSM can guarentee PE SM bubble when playing SM?

wow, I kinda want to play in your gaming group as I play DE and CSM.

 sudojoe wrote:
well, it certainly looks like time to hang up my fateweaver stripes.... Loved that guy, ran him literally for 2 and half years but sounds like I'll be shelving him for some GUO's. (maybe I can just repaint fateweaver green?)

I'm still interested to see what I can do with bloodcrushers. I have like 12 of them sitting around somewhere along with 9 flamers and 12 fiends. So troops wise? Get more nurgle? (only got 10 plague bearers) got 10 daemonnettes, got like 18 seekers so I'm in buisness still? got like 30 bloodletters so I might just make a game of this dex yet! (can't wait till my book gets here)

Just please someone answer me this: I built like 4 daemon princess (yes, they are chicks) in the past, will I get to still use them all in a list or is that gone now and I'll probably be subbing them in as heralds? (40mm bases swap?)

Also, is there any skyfire in the codex at all currently? Seems like if we have to go all heralds, where does that leave any FMC cause a single aegis +quad gun just doesn't cut it now a days in todays days of fliers.

I beleive princes are a hq choice with Greater Daemons making them a Heavy choice, so I guess 3 is the max unless you do double force org.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

FWIW, lots of tourneys change the Warlord system a bit, though straight up picking one is a bit extreme. I've seen "roll 1d6 and pick from any table" as a good compromise.

As it stands, 80%+ of the results are situational, useless, or negligible. A small percent are game changers.

 Xeriapt wrote:

I beleive princes are a hq choice with Greater Daemons making them a Heavy choice, so I guess 3 is the max unless you do double force org.

You could field 4, with the Greater Daemon as one hq, three princes (same mark) as heavies, and a fourth prince (different mark) as a second hq.

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

Not sure if serious...

My gaming group picks Warlord traits as well... we roll for psychic powers still, but I don't imagine it's that cheesy. Seriously, it's awesome and really makes 40k more strategic.

so DE can guarentee Night Fighting First turn, and get a free turn of shooting?
so CSM can guarentee PE SM bubble when playing SM?

wow, I kinda want to play in your gaming group as I play DE and CSM.

It's actually not as broken as you're making it sound (or... well, broken at all for that matter). And yeah, DE can get Night Fighting (or Nids, as I like to do) but obviously you're trading off other useful abilities like Scorelord, Legendary Fighter, etc.

The biggest issue i see with changing or disregarding the random tables are how the rest of the game is designed. I have found in the past when messing with game rules that unforseen problems pop up. That has always made me leery of messing with anything in this game as i don't know what my change will effect. No matter what, if you change something to benefit yourself (let's face it, that's all that is happening when people want to "fix" a rule they don't like) you end up ruining things for someone else in the group.

It seems like hordes of demons with FMC support is the way to go. Its crazy how good demonettes are IMO. They have 2A base ws5 I5 and because they are demons of slaanesh rend. At 9 points that's just sick. I imagine 3 lumps of 20 with some fiends and seekers for the early press would make an awesome army.

Flesh hounds are awesome now too, ws5 w2 a2 and FC all on beasts which DTW on a 2+!

I can't believe how cheap soul grinders are 135.... why on earth is my defiler 195 when that thing has skyfire standard and 13/13/11 armor. With phlegm he is still 30 points less and better! Gona have to ally one to use as my defiler sub.

Sad to see only 1 herald for allied detachment was looking forward to dual HoT casting divination on two forge fiends in my back 9 I guess one will do

Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

Anyone else think that the lord of change is an absolute beast now? for my csm detachment i plan on running a LoC and a Prince both mastery level 3 the awesome amount of firepower they can can put out is amazing!

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
Anyone else think that the lord of change is an absolute beast now? for my csm detachment i plan on running a LoC and a Prince both mastery level 3 the awesome amount of firepower they can can put out is amazing!

How about giving him a lesser reward for the staff so he is S8 and still ap2 and detonates every guy he smacks in the face. This made me literally lol when I imagined him swimming in the green tide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

Ah nice catch, funny how I assumed it was as good as kharnes lol.

 azreal13 wrote:
Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

Flesh Hounds may not bowl you over at first glance (partly because Seekers look so shiny), but they're sneaky good. Especially with Karanak (Rage), they can throw a ton of S5 wounds on stuff. Seems like there are a number of things like that in the codex...stuff that doesn't jump off the page at first glance but is pretty good in reality.

TzeentchNet wrote:
The new Daemon warlord traits are far more useful than the BRB ones. I also don't think that daemons are as random as people think - most of the Warp Storm results benefit you unless you run a four-god army, and the random gifts have very nice default results if you don't get exactly what you want.

The only problematic part comes in with their psychic powers (specifically, unlucky Deny the Witch and Runes of Warding), but everyone that wants to go psyker heavy has the issue of not rolling up the perfect combination of powers or facing Eldar.

Even if you have units from all four, the 5-9 results don't really hit that hard, and a few choice instruments can eliminate most of the risk anyway. My first list includes all 4 gods, although Slaanesh is represented most. So I'll have a couple Slaanesh instruments in the mix for some protection there, and take my chances on the odd Khorne unit, etc. The 2-4 results are something to worry about, LOL. The 5-9 results, not so much...they'll likely help more than they hurt.

And as a Tyranid player, I've HATED Runes of Psychic Smackdown for quite some time. The good news there is that they likely have a limited shelf life in their current incarnation.

 Brotherjanus wrote:
The biggest issue i see with changing or disregarding the random tables are how the rest of the game is designed. I have found in the past when messing with game rules that unforseen problems pop up. That has always made me leery of messing with anything in this game as i don't know what my change will effect. No matter what, if you change something to benefit yourself (let's face it, that's all that is happening when people want to "fix" a rule they don't like) you end up ruining things for someone else in the group.

I can agree on this for Chaos Boons, Warp Storm Table, etc - changing those only benefits the one player (unless they're both running CSM/DoC). At least with Warlords you both benefit equally.

Im planning on running a slaanesh heavy list with some nurgle splashed in. My 100+ daemonettes and 30+ seekers might actually get to see the tabletop all together for once.

Im curious though about CSM allies. specifically the heldrake. I have come to really like the model but do not own one yet. I have not played against one at all yet either.

Is a solo Heldrake from an allied detachment worth taking or is it one of those where 1 is blah while 3 is OMGOP?

Not sure about HQ for CSM either, any advice?

 keltikhoa wrote:
Im planning on running a slaanesh heavy list with some nurgle splashed in. My 100+ daemonettes and 30+ seekers might actually get to see the tabletop all together for once.

Im curious though about CSM allies. specifically the heldrake. I have come to really like the model but do not own one yet. I have not played against one at all yet either.

Is a solo Heldrake from an allied detachment worth taking or is it one of those where 1 is blah while 3 is OMGOP?

Not sure about HQ for CSM either, any advice?

I think as with any big nasty unit that people fear, you shouldnt send it in alone, make sure it has backup or it will likely be focused and killed. If you take the Chaos birdy maybe fly some DP's with it?

Its hard to say. Your 130 slaanesh models will be in assault on turn 2 or 3. That will limit what your helldrake can toast.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Its hard to say. Your 130 slaanesh models will be in assault on turn 2 or 3. That will limit what your helldrake can toast.

Ahh valid point, and one I cant believe I overlooked lol.

Maybe I will just get one to make look pretty on the shelf then, take up the space my Nettes and Seekers are vacating

 gorgon wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

Flesh Hounds may not bowl you over at first glance (partly because Seekers look so shiny), but they're sneaky good. Especially with Karanak (Rage), they can throw a ton of S5 wounds on stuff. Seems like there are a number of things like that in the codex...stuff that doesn't jump off the page at first glance but is pretty good in reality.

Lets not forget scouts, which means they will get into combat very quickly, or can even outflank. Should have had acute sense too, but seekers obviously sold less.

After seeing a mostly Slaanesh army go against a GK army and only narrowly lose, I think a Slaanesh/Nurgle mix will be powerful.

Seriously, the GK win was by the narrowest of margins.

Hell, the GK list was tourney proven and the Daemons list was used for the first time.

Obviously more testing needs doing, but at least it's a start against a force that should break us with ease.

I'm going Mono Nurgle though... staying away from Slaanesh.

I have a few questions that someone might be able to shed some light on and I really wish I could ask this of GW.

Furies LD2, why?
Why does most everything Khorne have a 6+ armor save? What purpose does it serve?
Given the choice of demonettes with the lvl 3 loci herald vs bloodletters with a lvl3 loci herald, why would I ever pick bloodletters?
Why would I ever field fateweaver when he has ws 1?
Lesser reward 1, burning blood, why does it say I can't take cover saves if this has solely to do with close combat?
For exalted reward 5, warp tether, for a demon that started on the board, when he comes out of reserve do I have to walk on or can I deep strike it?
In what scenario would I ever use bloodcrushers?

That is all I have for now

 Bodacious2182 wrote:
I have a few questions that someone might be able to shed some light on and I really wish I could ask this of GW.

Furies LD2, why?
Why does most everything Khorne have a 6+ armor save? What purpose does it serve?
Given the choice of demonettes with the lvl 3 loci herald vs bloodletters with a lvl3 loci herald, why would I ever pick bloodletters?
Why would I ever field fateweaver when he has ws 1?
Lesser reward 1, burning blood, why does it say I can't take cover saves if this has solely to do with close combat?
For exalted reward 5, warp tether, for a demon that started on the board, when he comes out of reserve do I have to walk on or can I deep strike it?
In what scenario would I ever use bloodcrushers?

That is all I have for now

I can only answer the Daemonettes vs Bloodletters one, its a question of whether you need rending for TEQ/MCs/Vehicles Av12 or lower. If your not fighting any of these, Bloodletters are the better choice (though with MCs that are T6 withonly a 3+ armor saves, 'Letters are still better), Daemonettes cant get furious charge, so they wounds most things on fours, and their rending is wasted on most infantry units. Bloodletters are S5 on the charge, and wound most infantry on 2+ and MEQ on 3+, and unlike Daemonettes, all of their wounds will deny a save, not just 6s.

Oh and on the subject of Loci, don't take the Lvl 3 Khorne loci, take the level 2 one. Rage is far more useful to them than Hatred, since most of the things you are charging you'll hit on 3s anyway, in which case more actual attacks is preferable.

I'm still struggling with this 6+ armour save thing.

What were they thinking? Were they thinking?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still struggling with this 6+ armour save thing.

What were they thinking? Were they thinking?

So you still have SOME kind of save if your ++ gets taken away? Seriously dude, its not that hard to figure out.

Nothing currently can take your ++ away, yet. But realistically the answer is that they have a 6+ save in Fantasy (where you can take your armour and "invulnerable"), so for consistency they have it in 40K as well.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So you still have SOME kind of save if your ++ gets taken away? Seriously dude, its not that hard to figure out.

That fast wooshing noise is the sound of my point sailing over your head at a decent speed.

My concern is why they went from having nice thick brass armour - like Khornate Daemons tend to have - to having Ork armour... and going up in points. They've become Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher fodder. Hell, a decent volley of Bolter fire will core a unit... and they're 45 points each!!!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So you still have SOME kind of save if your ++ gets taken away? Seriously dude, its not that hard to figure out.

That fast wooshing noise is the sound of my point sailing over your head at a decent speed.

My concern is why they went from having nice thick brass armour - like Khornate Daemons tend to have - to having Ork armour... and going up in points. They've become Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher fodder. Hell, a decent volley of Bolter fire will core a unit... and they're 45 points each!!!

If you were only talking about Bloodcrushers you probably should have reiterated that rather than just making a comment 3 pages after anyone had talked about them specifically. But yes, that certainly was an odd decision on their part.

Chrysis wrote:
Nothing currently can take your ++ away, yet. But realistically the answer is that they have a 6+ save in Fantasy (where you can take your armour and "invulnerable"), so for consistency they have it in 40K as well.

Bad Warp storm roll and failed Grimore of True names takes away a normal Daemon's save, its in the codex


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chrysis wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
So you still have SOME kind of save if your ++ gets taken away? Seriously dude, its not that hard to figure out.

That fast wooshing noise is the sound of my point sailing over your head at a decent speed.

My concern is why they went from having nice thick brass armour - like Khornate Daemons tend to have - to having Ork armour... and going up in points. They've become Heavy Bolter and Missile Launcher fodder. Hell, a decent volley of Bolter fire will core a unit... and they're 45 points each!!!

If you were only talking about Bloodcrushers you probably should have reiterated that rather than just making a comment 3 pages after anyone had talked about them specifically. But yes, that certainly was an odd decision on their part.

^ What he said. As for why, because a lot of people bought bloodcrushers last gen, so GW sees no point in keeping them useful. They did the same thing with Nids and the Carnifex

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
Nothing currently can take your ++ away, yet. But realistically the answer is that they have a 6+ save in Fantasy (where you can take your armour and "invulnerable"), so for consistency they have it in 40K as well.

Bad Warp storm roll and failed Grimore of True names takes away a normal Daemon's save, its in the codex

They don't take it away, they make it 1 worse. Or at least the Grimoire does. So they'd be at a 6++ after.

EDIT: Scratch that, misread. Yes, if both happen at the same time they'd lose the save. Didn't remember the existence of that option on the Warp Storm chart.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
Nothing currently can take your ++ away, yet. But realistically the answer is that they have a 6+ save in Fantasy (where you can take your armour and "invulnerable"), so for consistency they have it in 40K as well.

Bad Warp storm roll and failed Grimore of True names takes away a normal Daemon's save, its in the codex

Doesn't remove it, it makes it worse (5++ to a 6++)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
Nothing currently can take your ++ away, yet. But realistically the answer is that they have a 6+ save in Fantasy (where you can take your armour and "invulnerable"), so for consistency they have it in 40K as well.

Bad Warp storm roll and failed Grimore of True names takes away a normal Daemon's save, its in the codex

Doesn't remove it, it makes it worse (5++ to a 6++)

COMBINED they remove the ++ save entirely.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still struggling with this 6+ armour save thing.

What were they thinking? Were they thinking?

There may be upcoming books that are capable of removing or ignoring invulnerable saves, would be my best bet.

 BryllCream wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still struggling with this 6+ armour save thing.

What were they thinking? Were they thinking?

There may be upcoming books that are capable of removing or ignoring invulnerable saves, would be my best bet.

Vindicare already does but only from wargear, so Chaos Daemons are exempt

Don't forget that a 5++ within a Nullzone (forcing to reroll successfull invo saves) is worse then a 6+ normal save.
As long as the weapon didn't have an AP ofcorse.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm still struggling with this 6+ armour save thing.

What were they thinking? Were they thinking?

They are going to gauge the sales of the Bloodcrushers, and if they're weak, they will say it's a "Misprint" and give it back some kind of save.

And in a chariot, you have a 5+ save!!!

The Bloodletter has no armour, so its not really surprising.

However, the model still doesn't feel quite right. 30-35pts, T5 and normal movement + hammer of wrath would probably better reflect it, and stop it competing directly against all the other fast cavalry options in the book.

The odds of planets aligning such that a bloodletter loses its 5++ are so miniscule as to be not worth considering. And then you remember 90% of the weapons ignore the puny 6+ save and begin to question the competence of the authors.

Furies LD2, why?

So that they can take full advantage of the instability mechanic, where full advantage = fool around. The moment they don't wipe out their foes, they're dead meat. Kelly though it hysterical, I guess.

Why does most everything Khorne have a 6+ armor save? What purpose does it serve?

Explained above. Be thankful it doesn't say "Undead" instead.

Given the choice of demonettes with the lvl 3 loci herald vs bloodletters with a lvl3 loci herald, why would I ever pick bloodletters?

Because you like Khorne. Or you're up against multiple marine armies, against which 'letters are somewhat better, though can't do much against their vehicles or 2+. Plus 'letters paint faster than 'nettes, so you can buy more boxes sooner.

Why would I ever field fateweaver when he has ws 1?

Because the designers though it funny to have an MC that shrinks from close combat. So better keep it out of it. Oh, and it's fluffily cinematic.

Lesser reward 1, burning blood, why does it say I can't take cover saves if this has solely to do with close combat?

Because it's a codex made with the 7th edition in mind.

For exalted reward 5, warp tether, for a demon that started on the board, when he comes out of reserve do I have to walk on or can I deep strike it?

Wait for it to be FAQ'd on Saturday, along with point costs.

In what scenario would I ever use bloodcrushers?

You've already been duped by GW to buy the models and don't have the money to buy extra models to hit the points allowance.

Bloodcrushers being crap sucks I have 9 plastic ones and the metal herald. I am glad they came out with a new codex, I should be able to get decent money for my army if I decide to sell. At least I had 3 soul grinders already.

Lol good answers! I think I will run a simulation of demonettes vs bloodletters. I hypothesize for the points cost and the availability ability to always re-roll potentially rending hits is better against MeQ, especially in susbsequent combat. If bloodletters had 2 base attacks or came built in with rage and the ability to purchase a re-rollor something that might be different.

This is why you need the herald with greater loci running with your letters to give them rage. Another fun idea I read in an article is to run the army similar to the way you did with daemonic assault. Reserve half your army, deploy all your fast, ie seekers with icon/instruments, run upfield, 2nd turn roll reserve and hope to drop the other half your army in the enemy deployment zone with Skarbarand, assault and profit.

I know I keep going on about this, but I am just totally mistified by this decision.



I want everyone to cast their minds back to 2001. In 2001 GW released the 3rd Ed Tyranid Codex (can you believe we've had 3 Tyranid Codices in 12 years?). On page 8 of that book we saw the rules for the Venom Cannon; a fearsome weapon that anyone who played Tyranids in 2nd Ed knew was the staple of our heavy-weapon barrage. We didn't do much shooting, us Tyranid players, but we made that silly mutli-barrage template thingy count!

Anyway, on that page it had the following fluff:

"A target struck by the venom cannon is either killed by the impact of by corrosive fragments from the poison crystals when they shatter. Even vehicle armour can be penetrated by the crystals, leading poisoned crew members and shattered equipment, although the lack of explosive impact reduces lethality."

Two lines later it says the following:

"Note: A venom cannon can only achieve glancing hits against vehicles”

So much for penetrating vehicle armour, as the fluff tells us.

Now I laughed at this, but it was a singular instance of fluff directly contradicting rules within a paragraph. I didn't think we'd get something so blatantly silly ever again.



I just got the Daemon Codex, and it appears that even in 2001 I was speaking too soon.

Codex: Daemons (6th Edition), page 30:

"Small arms fire patters harmlessly from its hide, only serving to enrage the daemonic beast further. Only the heaviest weapons have a chance of piercing its armoured skin and by the time such weapons are brought to bear, it is usually too late."

No, you're wrong; this isn't the entry for the Soul Grinder. It's the entry for the Bloodcrusher, the unit that just went from having a 3+ save to having a 6+ save. I'm sorry, but this has to be a mistake. This does not compute.

I wonder when people will realize that the whole reason something becoming extremely popular is because it is decidedly unbalanced, and any attempts to correct that imbalance will result in the unit being less popular.

Or its a great conspiracy theory by the company that produces plastic toy soldiers to force you to buy more of their product...something like that

Bloodcrushers being crap sucks I have 9 plastic ones and the metal herald. I am glad they came out with a new codex, I should be able to get decent money for my army if I decide to sell. At least I had 3 soul grinders already.

Calvary is one of the best unit types in the game now. Comparing them to similarly priced unit, like a Term, they are slightly less resilient to some things (bolters) and more resilient to other things (Plasma). The only weapon profile they really suffer against compared to Terms is S8 AP3 or worse. Most of the lamenting about the Bloodcrushers completely ignores what they gained and focuses only on what they lost, typical, but certainly not very useful.

Bloodcrushers were 'decidedly unbalanced' were they? And where am I expousing conspiratory views about being forced to buy things?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bloodcrushers were 'decidedly unbalanced' were they? And where am I expousing conspiratory views about being forced to buy things?

The comment wasn't directed at you, and yes, before the Flamers/Screemers explosion, Bloodcrushers were by far one of the most popular selections.

Popular doesn't mean 'decidedly unbalanced'.

The whole argument about Crushers being rubbish is a moot point in my opinion after seeing them in game last night.

Try deepstriking them off an icon on the turn before assault behind your Bloodletters and see your opponent brick it as he'll either have to shoot the twenty strong letter unit or the destructive Crusher unit.

I have a new found respect for the new Crusher rules after seeing a Mono Khorne army tear through a SW army with ease.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Popular doesn't mean 'decidedly unbalanced'.

Okay, and why were they more popular then? Because of the pretty models? Because they came with a free package of gum? Jesus.

The whole argument about Crushers being rubbish is a moot point in my opinion after seeing them in game last night.

Try deepstriking them off an icon on the turn before assault behind your Bloodletters and see your opponent brick it as he'll either have to shoot the twenty strong letter unit or the destructive Crusher unit.

I have a new found respect for the new Crusher rules after seeing a Mono Khorne army tear through a SW army with ease.

Shhhh. We'll have none of that here. This thread is clearly for people appraising units they have never seen in an actual game once and calling them trash with 0 evidence. Of course, that's pretty much along the lines of most threads on Dakka?

And you're up to the "getting angry and insulting people" phase of your posts. Congratulations.

Oh boy. Please tell me where I insulted anyone. Dismissive and a little incredulous maybe, but certainly not angry or insulting.

Do you want to actually address the question or are you going to hide behind you ad hominems? Why were they so popular if they weren't considered the best units in their slot? I'll hang up and listen.

I use them as allies for CSM and now have a dilemma.

Troops need a herald really, but that means not taking a GD, which is the whole point of taking them as allies.

So apart from needing 2 HQ units on CD codex, if i switch them to my primary detachment i lose the option of taking my heavy support option in my usual CSM primary detachment.
Also now you need 10man units i dont have enough troops.

looks like i need a re-jig and some new models #playingintotheirhands

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I know I keep going on about this, but I am just totally mistified by this decision.



I want everyone to cast their minds back to 2001. In 2001 GW released the 3rd Ed Tyranid Codex (can you believe we've had 3 Tyranid Codices in 12 years?). On page 8 of that book we saw the rules for the Venom Cannon; a fearsome weapon that anyone who played Tyranids in 2nd Ed knew was the staple of our heavy-weapon barrage. We didn't do much shooting, us Tyranid players, but we made that silly mutli-barrage template thingy count!

Anyway, on that page it had the following fluff:

"A target struck by the venom cannon is either killed by the impact of by corrosive fragments from the poison crystals when they shatter. Even vehicle armour can be penetrated by the crystals, leading poisoned crew members and shattered equipment, although the lack of explosive impact reduces lethality."

Two lines later it says the following:

"Note: A venom cannon can only achieve glancing hits against vehicles”

So much for penetrating vehicle armour, as the fluff tells us.

Now I laughed at this, but it was a singular instance of fluff directly contradicting rules within a paragraph. I didn't think we'd get something so blatantly silly ever again.



I just got the Daemon Codex, and it appears that even in 2001 I was speaking too soon.

Codex: Daemons (6th Edition), page 30:

"Small arms fire patters harmlessly from its hide, only serving to enrage the daemonic beast further. Only the heaviest weapons have a chance of piercing its armoured skin and by the time such weapons are brought to bear, it is usually too late."

No, you're wrong; this isn't the entry for the Soul Grinder. It's the entry for the Bloodcrusher, the unit that just went from having a 3+ save to having a 6+ save. I'm sorry, but this has to be a mistake. This does not compute.

You'd prefer fluff that mentions how easily a lasgun will punch through power armour, and how a melta gun can zap a flyer going at 200mph? Yeah, no. Fluff != rules.

Yea bloodcrushers should not have ever had a 3+ IMO considering a chaos lord in full power armor on the back of a jugger got plus what added to his save?

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea bloodcrushers should not have ever had a 3+ IMO considering a chaos lord in full power armor on the back of a jugger got plus what added to his save?

dam, that is a tough question...can I phone a friend?

I'm surprised no-one has really said anything on the pure murder which bloodthirsters are. give him a greater reward and take the blade of blood.

Use his lash to hit things with a s6 ap2 on 2+ twin linked, then get a minimum of 8 attacks if you charge into a unit with more than 1 model. At WS10/I9 there isnt much that can contend with that. Granted, this is 270 points out of your army... if you're smart you ignore the swooping part and basically use him as a jump mc giving him a possible turn 1 charge.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Oh boy. Please tell me where I insulted anyone. Dismissive and a little incredulous maybe, but certainly not angry or insulting.

Do you want to actually address the question or are you going to hide behind you ad hominems? Why were they so popular if they weren't considered the best units in their slot? I'll hang up and listen.

I think it's fairly obvious what he was getting at. Bloodcrushers were popular, because they were good, in a book of not so good.

Not overpowered. But good, by comparison to other daemon unit's of the time.

I'd call terminator's good, but not overpowered. Same with bloodcrushers of that book.

 Evileyes wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Oh boy. Please tell me where I insulted anyone. Dismissive and a little incredulous maybe, but certainly not angry or insulting.

Do you want to actually address the question or are you going to hide behind you ad hominems? Why were they so popular if they weren't considered the best units in their slot? I'll hang up and listen.

I think it's fairly obvious what he was getting at. Bloodcrushers were popular, because they were good, in a book of not so good.

Not overpowered. But good, by comparison to other daemon unit's of the time.

I'd call terminator's good, but not overpowered. Same with bloodcrushers of that book.

Actually he did get at any of that. He just dodged the question. So they were imbalanced in respect to their own codex? Which was my point? Word.

Ajroo wrote:
I use them as allies for CSM and now have a dilemma.

Troops need a herald really, but that means not taking a GD, which is the whole point of taking them as allies.

So apart from needing 2 HQ units on CD codex, if i switch them to my primary detachment i lose the option of taking my heavy support option in my usual CSM primary detachment.
Also now you need 10man units i dont have enough troops.

looks like i need a re-jig and some new models #playingintotheirhands

Yeah, this made me sad too. Suddenly the options for summoning daemons in to join my Slaaneshi troops just doesn't seem anything like as appealing. Still, it's been a long time since I could possess my own troops once a big nasty got close to them. A mob of Genestealers taking on my last few Noisemarines found the daemonettes that suddenly appeared in thier place much harder to deal with back in 2nd Ed!

Still, I like the look of the new rules enough that I'm investing for the first time in over a decade and building up enough Daemons to use them as a primary detachment. Should be fun!

 BryllCream wrote:

You'd prefer fluff that mentions how easily a lasgun will punch through power armour, and how a melta gun can zap a flyer going at 200mph? Yeah, no. Fluff != rules.

Then they shouldn't write fluff like that. Seriously, the fluff could equal the rules exactly if the fluff was written to be normal and not hilariously OTT.

 McNinja wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

You'd prefer fluff that mentions how easily a lasgun will punch through power armour, and how a melta gun can zap a flyer going at 200mph? Yeah, no. Fluff != rules.

Then they shouldn't write fluff like that. Seriously, the fluff could equal the rules exactly if the fluff was written to be normal and not hilariously OTT.

You haven't been playing 40k long have you?

Its funny how you hear absolutely no one talking about the blood throne of khorne. To bad the Khorne loci are so onesided, or you could have Princes and Thirsters benefit from loci via the throne; now you can get the loci poweres easily enough from rewards so you dont have to stay close to a throne.

The throne could easily have been made as a nice boosting substitute for the lack of psychic power on the khorne side, but it turned out to be a compleat lackluster.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

You'd prefer fluff that mentions how easily a lasgun will punch through power armour, and how a melta gun can zap a flyer going at 200mph? Yeah, no. Fluff != rules.

Then they shouldn't write fluff like that. Seriously, the fluff could equal the rules exactly if the fluff was written to be normal and not hilariously OTT.

You haven't been playing 40k long have you?

Eh, only a few years. I haven't minded the OTT fluff, but it is interesting when writing my own material, like codices, and I try to make sure that everything in the fluff can be represented by the rules. If it can't, I generally scrap it or tone it down so the rules are balanced. To me, they're one and the same.

 McNinja wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

You'd prefer fluff that mentions how easily a lasgun will punch through power armour, and how a melta gun can zap a flyer going at 200mph? Yeah, no. Fluff != rules.

Then they shouldn't write fluff like that. Seriously, the fluff could equal the rules exactly if the fluff was written to be normal and not hilariously OTT.

You haven't been playing 40k long have you?

Eh, only a few years. I haven't minded the OTT fluff, but it is interesting when writing my own material, like codices, and I try to make sure that everything in the fluff can be represented by the rules. If it can't, I generally scrap it or tone it down so the rules are balanced. To me, they're one and the same.

But OTT fluff is half the fun of 40k dude!

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Oh boy. Please tell me where I insulted anyone. Dismissive and a little incredulous maybe, but certainly not angry or insulting.

Do you want to actually address the question or are you going to hide behind you ad hominems? Why were they so popular if they weren't considered the best units in their slot? I'll hang up and listen.

I think it's fairly obvious what he was getting at. Bloodcrushers were popular, because they were good, in a book of not so good.

Not overpowered. But good, by comparison to other daemon unit's of the time.

I'd call terminator's good, but not overpowered. Same with bloodcrushers of that book.

Actually he did get at any of that. He just dodged the question. So they were imbalanced in respect to their own codex? Which was my point? Word.

Wait so are you saying that if a codex that is viewed as under powered has a unit in it that is viewed as fairly in balance with the other armies out there that the one unit should be brought down to be inline with the rest of the underpowered units in that codex? I never faced them so don't know if they were OP or balanced or even weak but from your posts that sounds like what you are arguing. I did face the flamers and screamers and can say the flamers did need adjusting but IMO they went one step to far with granting your opponent FNP half the time but I never even heard anyone complain about the crushers.

Wait so are you saying that if a codex that is viewed as under powered has a unit in it that is viewed as fairly in balance with the other armies out there that the one unit should be brought down to be inline with the rest of the underpowered units in that codex? I never faced them so don't know if they were OP or balanced or even weak but from your posts that sounds like what you are arguing. I did face the flamers and screamers and can say the flamers did need adjusting but IMO they went one step to far with granting your opponent FNP half the time but I never even heard anyone complain about the crushers.

I'm merely saying they were going to be brought inline with the units they are competing against, which they were. The viability of the entire old codex Demons had very little do with the power of Bloodcrushers.

So by decidedly over powered did you mean compared to other elites in demon codex or just elites from all books?

pepe5454 wrote:
So by decidedly over powered did you mean compared to other elites in demon codex or just elites from all books?

Considering Demon players can't choose elites from other codexes....

So ignoring that flamers are in there as the WD really buffed them. You are saying that if a codex has say a bunch of elites that are considered under powered by most and one that is considered to be good compared to other books that the one that is good is over powered?

Stop it pepe! You'll give him an aneurysm.

I really can't say if they were OP or not as over the years I can't remember facing them so if I did they didn't stand out to me at all. But if when he thinks something is OP he is thinking of just that one codex it would explain the disagreement as a matter of perspective.

"Useful" or "Powerful" is a far cry from "OP". All OP units are useful. Not all useful units are OP.

Bloodcrushers got hit with the biggest pendulum swing I've seen in quite some time, and the fluff that talks up their toughness and thick armour just makes it all the more hilarious.

pepe5454 wrote:
So ignoring that flamers are in there as the WD really buffed them. You are saying that if a codex has say a bunch of elites that are considered under powered by most and one that is considered to be good compared to other books that the one that is good is over powered?

Not always, and yes I'm speaking of Demons prior to the WD release, so ignoring flamers. Sometimes it really is the case that every other unit is just horrible, but that is rarely a reality. More often then not one unit just sticks out as obviously stronger then the rest. In those cases, instead of bringing everything up to that point, the unit is changed to bring it more in line with the rest of the units. Bloodcrushers are quite in line with the other Elite units now, and if this was the first Demon Codex ever people wouldn't even think to bitch about them. They just aren't anything like the unit that they were.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Stop it pepe! You'll give him an aneurysm.

One of us is using logic and rationalizing their reasoning, the other is throwing out baseless nonsense and ad hominems. My cognitive features are functioning quite fine, thank you.

The thick armor fluff is a bit odd since the change got to give you that =P. And I tend to view balance in a general sense as well. Crushers to me look pretty dang strong but also damn expensive which seems to be the norm. I can see using them with their current stats but it would depend on the situation not sure about a TAC list would have to plan around them.

pepe5454 wrote:
I really can't say if they were OP or not as over the years I can't remember facing them so if I did they didn't stand out to me at all. But if when he thinks something is OP he is thinking of just that one codex it would explain the disagreement as a matter of perspective.

I'm not sure if I would really use OP. "OP" is probably more reasonably attributed to the recent Flamers and Screamers. It's more accurate to describe them as More P, at least in respect to what they are competing against. The current iteration keeps all the cavalry pretty close together in terms of speed/power/resiliency, with minor ticks in one category at the expense of others. For what ever reason, up to and including the 4th and 5th edition paradigms they mainly were in, the old Crushers were taken almost exclusively over the competition, and I don't think it was because any of the other elites were particularly bad. Streamling them in this sense allows the fundamental interactions between the various units of each God interact in similar fashion, which in turn streamlines the Codexes internal mechanics. Its a deft design decision.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Useful" or "Powerful" is a far cry from "OP". All OP units are useful. Not all useful units are OP.

Bloodcrushers got hit with the biggest pendulum swing I've seen in quite some time, and the fluff that talks up their toughness and thick armour just makes it all the more hilarious.

I do agree the Fluff should have been updated at least a little. Three wounds is tough(ish), but what ever resiliency they have has nothing to do with "armor" or lack there of.

One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

Yeah no overwatch, they do have more melee options now.

Blue horrors, cant see them doing much, iridescent horror can take a gift for melee and its likely a herald will be in the unit which can also take combat oriented gifts.

If the unit can survive the initial charge I would use anther unit with decent combat abilities to bail them out so have one close by for support.


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Plague beasties could be good in this role because of attention seeker. Assuming your not adverse to using multiple gods, if your going mono tzeentch chariots would be a good way to help out horrors in combat.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

One minor exception: the extra shots (actually hits) conferred by the Blasted Standard can be invoked in Overwatch (the rule specifically mentions the possibility). (Although even here the language is wonky, since it refers to "an additional 2D6 Strength 4 AP- hits." [emphasis mine]

 tinfoil wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

One minor exception: the extra shots (actually hits) conferred by the Blasted Standard can be invoked in Overwatch (the rule specifically mentions the possibility). (Although even here the language is wonky, since it refers to "an additional 2D6 Strength 4 AP- hits." [emphasis mine]

Sadly its only one use, although they are auto hits so that would be a surprise to charge into.


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The wording is indeed weird, to me it implies you need to be able to fire something in overwatch to use it.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

Which is going to happen after a round of combat generally. Horrors used to be decent tarpit units, but will fold quickly now due to Daemonic Instability.


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 Xeriapt wrote:

 tinfoil wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

One minor exception: the extra shots (actually hits) conferred by the Blasted Standard can be invoked in Overwatch (the rule specifically mentions the possibility). (Although even here the language is wonky, since it refers to "an additional 2D6 Strength 4 AP- hits." [emphasis mine]

Sadly its only one use, although they are auto hits so that would be a surprise to charge into.


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The wording is indeed weird, to me it implies you need to be able to fire something in overwatch to use it.

While they mentioned being fired in Overwatch, I think the text said something like this: "these additional hits are added to any caused by the other shooting attack". I don't have my Codex with me, and that's from memory, but the way I played it was that it can't be used by itself, it must accompany some other shooting attack. I was the Daemon player in this game BTW.

I think they added the overwatch language in there on the off chance that your herald gets a Daemonic Reward that functions like a normal shooting weapon, which would be usable for Overwatch. This would allow the standard to be used when charged.

Just a thought, without my book to hand, but Psyker Herald rocking Cacaphonic Choir on a Steed accompanying a unit of Fiends = the end of Grey Knights as we know them?

 azreal13 wrote:
Just a thought, without my book to hand, but Psyker Herald rocking Cacaphonic Choir on a Steed accompanying a unit of Fiends = the end of Grey Knights as we know them?

Not at all, the Fiends' -1 to Leadership only counts for Psychic checks. You've also only got a 1/3 chance to get that power, so I wouldn't be planning any lists around it even if the -1 was all the time.

Hmm... what to do vs. double bio dakka Flyrants?

They seem to cause a lot of trouble

Flyrants are a problem as are AV12 flyers, Heldrakes ...
A BS3 Str7 gun will not do it. You have to get tthose flyrants and drakes grounded ... then your list can tear them apart. I played against a list sporting a tricked out LoC, Herald with lvl 3 and steed, a bunch of daemonettes with aluress and blade, a squad of seekers, a skull cannon and two slaanesh grinders. The instruments icons got the grinders up close and personal turn two ... the LoC had scryer's gaze as one of its powers. So he had outflanking seekers, daemonettes and grinders up close and attacking turns two/three. This is your best defense. If you can get the list into cc early you can cut down flyer damage. Problem with this list is that it wins assaults too easily and then are left hanging in the open way too often.
It came down to if he could weather the return fire once the initial assaults were done. I was playing a pretty standard Drop SW/SM allies list. He could not. A close game but ...

Big horrors units with a herald and prescience are going to be useful against flyers, lots of shots with re-rolls to hit and they can be str 6? Sounds good to me.

Seriously - against AV12 and a rune priest or farseer? My rune priests ruined my opponents day ... heralds and LoC with lvl3 - ha.

Well if your going to say againt flyers and anti psyker abilities then yeah its going to be harder but then it becomes an argument of escalation.

You say there is a farseer or runepriest, I say kill them off fast etc.

It's not enough shots that I'd rely on it. On average, you're only getting about 14 shots from the Horrors, and then 7 more from the Herald. Against AV10 and 11 flyers, I like those odds, but against 12 it's iffy. Plus, if you get bad rolls for your number of shots, you're hosed.

 azreal13 wrote:
Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

I hate the current Fleshhounds too: I used the previous edition ones that look like dogs with spikes coming out of them and molded three heads onto one body to be Karanak: the two outer heads are placed higher, and the middle one is lower. It sounds a bit awkward, but it looks awesome-doesn't even look like a conversion, actually. I can post it in my image folder once I get back from my work trip, if anyone else uses those older models and wants an idea to base him off of.

I ordered these as my flesh hounds. Their just dire wolves from fantasy.


I ordered this for my Karanak. Its from the Mordehiem line.

What does everyone think about going Daemons Undivided? I'm not sure if it's worth it or not.

It depends; would you have a primary faction, (e.g. 1000 pts of nurgle in a 2000 pt army) with smaller factions, or would they all be equal (e.g. 500 pts of Khorne, 500 of Nurgle, etc.) If it's a primary, I think you'd probably be OK. If it's split, it's probably a worse idea.

I'd go Nurgle primary with elements of the other pantheons on the side.

Thinking of using:

HQ

GUO or Skarbrand - the Rage and Hatred on Daemonettes is sick.
Heralds of Nurgle and Slaanesh.

Troops

Plaguebearers to hold objectives.
Daemonettes to charge and attack.
Possibly one unit of Bloodletters for AP3 - I don't think it is necessary though.

Elites

Beasts of Nurgle - I really like them and they draw fire like dry wood in a forest. Provide good cover too.

Fast Attack

Seekers - too good not to use.
Plague Drones - can really hammer units.

Heavy Support

Cannon of Khorne - obvious uses here.
Soulgrinder - again very useful.