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krazykishere wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

You can only take the 4 heralds as 1 hq if daemons are the primary detatchment. As this was specifically worded this way I would not.hold my breath on this or the not joining ICs between CD and CSM. Seems at this point they want to make sure the imperium retains the strongest ally rules.

feth.

Yes but the rewards are random. You can't pay the 20pts and choose to give him FNP. Yeah the worst you'll end up with for your 20 points is a Balesword but still I think the whole random boon idea is pretty lame. It might be alright for casual games but for anything competitive its just too random.

(Yes, I do see the irony that I have been arguing for 2 years with my CSM opponent that Timewarp makes you re-roll all dice not just misses because Chaos does not guarantee a better result it just gives you a chance at another outcome. And that I am now arguing for a little more stability in the Chaos Army. In my defense the later FAQ by GW proved me right on that point.)

Bloodhorror wrote:

krazykishere wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

You can only take the 4 heralds as 1 hq if daemons are the primary detatchment. As this was specifically worded this way I would not.hold my breath on this or the not joining ICs between CD and CSM. Seems at this point they want to make sure the imperium retains the strongest ally rules.

feth.

I'm pretty sure they're doing this for all 6th ed dexes now. Look at Dark Angels - you can ally, sure, but you can't take Deathwing or Ravenwing as scoring units. At the moment, there's little incentive to ally with DA; rather, DA should take other Imperial forces as allies to get the full benefit. I just figure this is the sort of thing we'll see more of as 6th goes along, since as it is the Allies rule is more about power gaming and hole-plugging than fluff.

I hope so, but the thing is at the moment, i see plenty of players who like Flavour of the Month armies using a large IG Blob Squad, with Azreal in there. 50 Guardsmen with a 4+ Invun.


Its a pita to get through....

Well, at first glance the new dex looked really dissapointing.
But I think you can get some great results if you let the army work together and dont just rely on separate units to win separate battles.

-Hordes of troops is now possible because of point drop. Sure they die easily enough to about everything the enemy throw at you, but thats bullets not aiming for your MCs.

-expencive monsters are actually dangerous to the enemy now, and hopefully the opponent is busy shooting down your troops. Any skyfire quad gun will blast your MCs no matter where you hide though.

-lots of stuf to nerf enemy elite units, here is the real key, let your abilities mess with the opponent, drop enemy I by 5 or let them move just D3". Psy power boost, deepstrike and icons will let you turn the course of the battle to your own choosing.

I think this army has potential to be a rewarding ensamble, but it will take some hard work and your luckiest die to figure it out, I think.

The over all problem is not what you can do to the enemy, but what the enemy can do to you. Sad stats and crappy armour is the main thing to figure out a cure for.

Quaden wrote:
I'm really sore about Fiends right now. I finally finished my 12 fiends on Thursday. On Friday I bought the codex and now am ready to rage quit. So we now have -1S, -2A?!?, -3Ld, but gained 1W, 1I. Weak. We lose Rending and Hit& Run? The new abilities are horrible in comparison. In addition they increased the price of the unit by 5 points per model? I also can't comprehend how they don't have venomous sting as an upgrade option. The model has a giant scorpion tail on it!!! (Although we may have a new model coming since the previous model is now listed as Unavailable on the GW site.

They have the Daemon of Slaanesh rule, so they still have Rending. And go a bit faster. I've only played one game with them, my unit of six took out a five strong Wraith unit, lost four wounds. Took three full turns of close combat. Probably some good rolls, but I'm still up in the air on them.

Quaden wrote:
The fateweaver, bloodcrushers, and flamers that I recently bought, as mention by another poster, are pretty much unplayable now. I agree with everything that was said about them in this thread. I rejoiced when I read that Bloodcrushers are now calvary. Then I saw that they lost their 3+ armor save. Lame.

Don't own Fateweaver, so I can only say that on the surface I'd agree. My bloodcrushers got hit by a Triarch Stalker and gunned down by one unit of Necro warriors to give up First Blood. Not looking to good so far. I only own six Flamers, but they were able to cause a good deal of havoc. They don't have the "auto-kill" label like before with all the Bloodthirsters and DP's of Khorne smashing into things. I deployed my Thirster and DP's to start to get assaults on turn two, flamers started in reserve. Was an explosion behind the Necron AGL on turn two.

Quaden wrote:
I'm very upset that Nurgle units lost FnP as a base ability. They can buy it as a loci on a per unit basis, but plague marines still have it as a base ability? They should have at least kept it on GUO and Ku'Gath.

You can get four heralds now, combined with shrouded. Dropped as objective campers in cover, my guess is they're even more durable than before FnP got nerfed by 6th edition.

Quaden wrote:
The more I read this Codex that madder I get at GW. I seriously want to send all my models and this codex back to GW and demand my money back. (as if that would ever work) I agree with the above. This codex is just a kick in the junk calculated to do nothing more than boost sales on the unpopular models. Oh look Nurglings might be worth fielding now you say. Well it just so happens that we just released a new model kit for them.

Play some games first, but if you're looking to unload them, a lot of Daemon players would be happy to give them a home.

I like the Loci the Heralds bring. And I'm thinking the primaris gifts can be nice for the you choppy troop units. Maybe two lesser to try and get a shooty attack as well? Ran the changeling, lvl 1 psyker just doesn't cut it. Might run him as a Herald and go lvl 3 to get more out of it. Three DP's of Khorne along with a Thirster and Heralds in chariots will be interesting to try out. I only own six seekers, so apart from the str 8 shot that I got off when they outflanked, I just don't have enough yet to mak them worthwhile. My 9 screamers are still good. They just don't mak you feel like a jerk when you play them.

I'm pretty happy with the new Codex. At the very least it's a fun casual army with lots of quirks that we still need to learn. I'm extremely doubtful it's very competitive against the top Codexes without some key FAQ changes though.

I appreciate the notes Panzer.

I will of course give Daemons a try once I get over being mad. I'm sure once I've played a few games things won't look as bad to me as they do just reading over the codex. Its just easier to rant about the negatives rather than focus on the pluses we do have. I do agree with some of the nerfs that happened. The previous incarnation of Epidemius, for example, was OP in my opinion (which never stopped me from abusing him).

I do like that our units have more options and an officer upgrade for all of our troop units now. The Changlings new ability was interesting to me and more in flavor with the concept of the character. At first I thought it would be pretty cool to have him morph to match, say a terminator squad. Then I remembered a Changling would be buried in a unit of nice squishy pink horrors and decided not to ever try that. I thought on read through that the Masque seemed to be an improvement over her previous self. I would be interested in giving her a test run.

On a personal note I suppose I'll have to crawl out of my comfort zone and actually learn something about psykers now.

From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness. I don't have the codex, but I really hate randomness. Sometimes, it can be fun, like rolling to see what the objective is. Sometimes, though, it hurts the game, and when the chart you're rolling on varies between marginally useful or stupidly pointless (Warlord traits in BRB) or the game (chaos boon table in C:CSM, warlord traits in C:CSM - did anyone really want anything other than the infiltrate trait?), it becomes a bother and a chore and only frustrates players more. If I were to run a tournament, I would allow all warlord traits to be picked.

Charge distance being random is another issue altogether, so I won't mention it here.

The masque stands out as a fun and cheap hq to ally into my CSM

By the way, I notice "the masque" and "blue scribes" ar not listed as options among the "4 for 1" herald deal. Or am I just missing something?

The BS are really pointless in this codex, so no tears wasted there, but its a terrible blow to The Masque IMO.
As vulnerable as she is Im not wasting a HQ slot for that. To bad, her abilities sonds good enough mess up some enemy ranks.

The new Daemon warlord traits are far more useful than the BRB ones. I also don't think that daemons are as random as people think - most of the Warp Storm results benefit you unless you run a four-god army, and the random gifts have very nice default results if you don't get exactly what you want.

The only problematic part comes in with their psychic powers (specifically, unlucky Deny the Witch and Runes of Warding), but everyone that wants to go psyker heavy has the issue of not rolling up the perfect combination of powers or facing Eldar.

If you want a serious problem daemons will have from now on - it's that almost all their units aside from the big HQs are glass cannons (or glass nerfbats) with terrible toughness and no Eternal Warrior.

2 wounds, 5+ save. She will drop like a fly. It's a shame :(

Especially since she is -still- not an independant character :(

 McNinja wrote:
From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness.

Because randomness in a game based off dice rolls is a bad thing.

Oh wait.

The odd thing is, lot's of people seem to be taking random, as bad. I guess in other thing's it is bad, but in this book, it seem's every outcome is good, but some are better.

So say, when I roll for the gift's, my reaction will be.

"Oh, allright, I can work with that"

or

"OMG yes, just what I needed!"

I'd imagine part of it is a reaction to things like the Warlord traits tables from the main rulebook, where you frequently get things that are completely useless to your army.

Important Question: Are you required to take god-specific powers like the csm dex? Or can I roll 3x on rule book powers for a lvl 3 Herald or Greater Daemon?

EDIT: Nevermind answered in the other thread. Looks like you can take all rule book powers.

Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

I'm thinking of running them with the 3+ poison as well. Personally, I think I still prefer screamers, but a unit of 6 or so Plague drones, will be Incredibily hard to shift from anywhere.

I went into my LGS earlier today to check out the daemons book and I adore the amount of random stuff in there! Sure lots of units took the nerf bat to the crotch but as people have mentioned, if you take the right random stuff, it really won't be that bad. (I must admit I only really play for fun though...)

And surely it suits the CHAOS Daemons to be chaotic? can't wait to see what happens with orks! :O

 BarBoBot wrote:
Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

I have to confess, over the last few hours I've started to look more at what I CAN do now, as opposed to focusing on what has been taken away, and I feel more optimistic. My daemons tend to be more about models I like, a good percentage are non GW, and I would like my favourite models to also be good on the tsble, but I think I can work with the book. It's a great palette cleanser from my marines that's for sure!

 Shandara wrote:


Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

Mutilators and Warp Talons would like to have a talk about this - as would the Nephilim Fighter.

I played against the new daemons today in a 1v1v1. The daemon player is a VERY good player but wanted to try a new list then usual, so we ended up doing 1500pts each. His first turn took ages! All those charts and powers to roll for! He played a tzeench list with fateweaver, a prince level 3, 2 big units of horrors with herelds and a khorne detachment. All the psykic powers where all very strong yet id say balanced. I have a feeling he it would of been a LOT more in his favour if i didnt have runes of warding,but i did...and they had a field day! By the end of the game he had periled'd (?) 12 times! Fatey got 4 wounds done on himself, but not before personally wreaking a dark angles army with just him and the prince, who peril'd 3 times.

The artifacts rolls dont seem any too over powered, and flamers have beem nerfed. I think fatey has been over nerfed, he should keep his 3++. I like the new horrors, very cool. Winds of chaos (when he remembered...) didn't change the game overmuch, but id like them to be roll once and its that for the entire game.

My inly complaint is that when blessings and meledictions and loci's and winds and artifacts going around its hard for even the player to know whats going on, let alone the oponent. In the end we had to write down every unit, what powers it had, what mastery it was, what artifacts, and any temperary blessings/curses. It was like plaaying cludo, im not saying its bad, but maybe they could simplify it somehow?

Okay Noob question.

This new codex keeps referring to psyker disciplines. I've only played the previous edition Chaos Daemons so I know little about pyskers. The only disciplines I see in this book are Change, Plague, and Excess. In what book do I find disciplines such as Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy, and Divination? Am I overlooking them in the BRB or do I have to buy the psyker powers deck to get the rules for them? I noticed a chart of which armies have access to each discipline in another forum but it was written in another language and I didn't recognize the book. People are telling me some of my lost power complaints are covered by abilities in these disciplines and I can't find anything to reference.

Edit: NM. I found them in the appendix shortly after posting. I kept looking in the front around the psyker rules. Carry on.

Quaden wrote:
Okay Noob question.

This new codex keeps referring to psyker disciplines. I've only played the previous edition Chaos Daemons so I know little about pyskers. The only disciplines I see in this book are Change, Plague, and Excess. In what book do I find disciplines such as Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy, and Divination? Am I overlooking them in the BRB or do I have to buy the psyker powers deck to get the rules for them? I noticed a chart of which armies have access to each discipline in another forum but it was written in another language and I didn't recognize the book. People are telling me some of my lost power complaints are covered by abilities in these disciplines and I can't find anything to reference.

They're all listed in the main rulebook for 6th edition.

 Shandara wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Is anyone thinking of trying out plague drones?

12" jet pack move ( due to cavalry type)
2D6 assault move (even if not assaulting)
Shrouded
T5
3W
3A base
Auto glance vehicles on 6

I'm thinking it will be durable enough with T5, W3 and shrouding to hunt vehicles and survive to make line breaker.

Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

mutilators, warptalons, nelaphin....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 calypso2ts wrote:

 Shandara wrote:


Strange how the new unit is good, eh GW?

Mutilators and Warp Talons would like to have a talk about this - as would the Nephilim Fighter.

and then i scroll down

Honestly, as a guy who never played net-lists, took 2 units of seekers, occasional flesh hounds, Soul Grinders (when I wasn't preferring princes), and a bunch of Daemonettes running around, as well as a Bloodthirster and a Keeper of Secrets...this book is sounding like it was built with me in mind. I'm actually excited to get this on Monday, after close to a year long hiatus from GW.

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness.

Because randomness in a game based off dice rolls is a bad thing.

Oh wait.

No, you're right, the player should only have marginal control over the game. It's perfectly ok that the player can lose (no matter the skill) because of a few bad dice rolls on random tables that completely feth his army right up without him actually being able to do anything about it.

Taking more and more control away from the player is NEVER ok.

The player should craft the army to their liking and play with that, not have to craft a list around random-ass tables and hope for the best every game.

Anyone tried using the hearld of Slaanesh and giving her a whip and psychic power that makes oppenents inititive -5? Thus every time they fail a save agaisnt it they must make an inititive test.