Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Finished my first game with Chaos Daemons vs Necrons. My opponent rolled with a Destroyer Lord Wraithstar and a C'tan Shard together with a unit of Tomb Blades and two min squad warrior units. I used a Lord of Change, two units of min Daemonettes, and two Jugger squads, all with basic heralds attached. The Wraithstar murderized a jugger squad and was eating a second squad of 'ettes when the game ended. It was Purge the Alien and he stomped me in VP.

Warp Storm
Wasn't that big a deal. At all. When it wasn't buffing me or hurting him I could use an Instrument to reroll the bad effect. You're probably not going to want to be running more than two gods though.

Daemonic Instability
I finished off my own Jugger squad with a bad roll, but otherwise it's now quite as bad as I would have thought. Very dice dependent though, and rewards blobs of dudes to win combat and soak up the unsavable wounds (makes FNP nice if you run Nurgle...)

Daemonic Rewards
It's not very random when you either get lucky on the roll or get a really decent magic weapon or artifact as default. You basically win-win, the only question is how much and what you are expecting to fight.

Daemonic Loci
Most of these are not good. The Exalted Loci are basically all you should ever really pick from what I can see right now.

Daemonic Gifts
Dark Excommunication makes daemon melee weapons turn off. Also note Daemonic Gifts covers steeds!

Lord of Change
The change to only psychic attacks has REALLY hurt him. Especially if ran the old LoC with Breath of Chaos and such you will really feel the lack of decent shooting attacks. It is now almost mandatory to make him Mastery 3 so that if you get one of the decent Tzeentch powers you can use that and the Divination ability. Prescience is amazing. Getting Prescience and rolling Infernal Gateway is blah because you would want to use both and can't at Mastery 2. I wanted to give him The Eternal Blade as an Exalted Award but couldn't afford it - it seems to be one of the best weapon awards for him though (ST+1, +D3 WS, I and A!)

He got locked into combat with the C'tan pretty early but he held his own quite well. The 5++ save really didn't do him any favors though. Basically a wash compared to the old version, but far less useful flying around now. He's much killier in melee though.

Daemonettes
Amazingly good for 9 points a model. Especially with either Prescience or the Exalted Locus of Beguilement. Anything but a Wraithstar would be murderized. Against a wraithstar ... yeah not fun. Especially since he can mind shackle your poor heralds or instant death them easily in a challenge (even the Wraiths instant death a Herald of Slaanesh so he's basically dead man walking ...). Lack of eternal warrior makes Heralds of Tzeentch and Slaanesh VERY VERY sad pandas. Luckily they don't do a whole lot for the unit outside of the Loci so it's just annoying when they bite it. Don't put too many points into them.

Their S3 and T3 really hurts against MEQ though. I will probably stick with Seekers for Daemonette action and use shooty Horrors next time.

Bloodcrushers
Garbage. They are fast but die quick because of that extremely unimpressive 5++. I had a single crusher survive to charge against a unit of Necron warriors. Then they just overwhelmed it with wounds. It's only T4. NOT worth 45 points each by any means. Get Seekers instead for the job they are supposed to do, those are absolutely amazing.

Run the artifact that gives a unit a 3++ inv in a big bloodcrusher squad or seeker squad. But besides that the codex IMO is poorly made. Overall the codex grade wise is C- at best. It has a double edged sword feeling to it but the side that bites you is sharper.

I can easily see a powerful Slaanesh / Khorne (harhar fluff aside bviously) army centered around close combat emerging from it. Many Seekers, Daemonettes and a Thirster + Keeper sounds like a mean army with a difficult threat saturation.

Heck, you can even run a fully-khorne FMC spam army w. Thirsters as HQ and khornate D.Princes as HS. I predict this army to pop up at a high-tier tournament and start taking names.

The Grimoire of True Names (which can buff your dudes to 3++ for a turn) has a 2 in 6 chance of reducing you to a 6++. Hardly worth counting on, and you may not have the points to get that and more generally useful hellforged artefacts like the Portalglyph.

If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it. Next game I'm going to be using Soulgrinders, Screamers (which are still pretty good), and Seekers to try and kill his deathstar ASAP and jam his shooty units. A Soulgrinder with Daemon of Nurgle (only one that seems to be advantageous for them) and Phlegm is only 180 points and seems more survivable and useful than most other Heavy options - although I do admit Burning Chariots can throw out some scary torrents before it dies like a dog to a sideways glance from anything with S4+

It sounds like these are the stars you saw.
* Daemonettes
* Seekers

Your Daemonettes did not have the punch alone to solve this problem of wraithstar. Daemonettes cannot chew up a deathstar unit. Is that an accurate assessment?

Wraiths seem to be difficult. Now, if you combine an assault with Daemonettes and shooting from a Herald with Horrors, that might do it. ML3 Herald, 1 in Tzeentch power, 2 in Divination. If you're lucky, misfortune on the wraiths, and Prescience on Horrors/Daemonettes.

I notice Epidimius no longer works with CSM Plague Marines.
That'll upset some of the CSM players I know.

 marv335 wrote:
I notice Epidimius no longer works with CSM Plague Marines.
That'll upset some of the CSM players I know.

I think everyone should have seen that one coming.

Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

 Mindshred wrote:

 marv335 wrote:
I notice Epidimius no longer works with CSM Plague Marines.
That'll upset some of the CSM players I know.

I think everyone should have seen that one coming.

Yep, breaking the difference between those dedicated to a god, and those who are made from said god in the stupidest fashion possible.

Is it just me or does the The Two Heads of Fate rule that Kairos has not actually do anything?

He knows all the Change powers, and can get one power from each of the Biomancy, Telepathy, Pyromancy and Divination tables. Is it just so he can't use a Telepathy/Biomancy power in the same turn he uses a Pyromancy/Divination power, because that's pretty much all it does. It's a whole paragraph for what amounts to pretty much nothing. Why not just give him 1 power from each table and avoid writing a special rule that isn't really a rule and ain't all that special?

I'm also trying to figure out how Bloodcrushers managed to lose their 3+ save yet went up in points.

Bloodcrushers, in addition to losing almost all their survivability, became Cavalry. That's why their point cost went up.

Definitely going to be bringing 12 Long Fangs and a Vindicator from now on.

I'm flipping trough the new codex atm. As far as I can see Nurgle deamons dont have fnp? Only if you get the fnp loci on a hq and join the unit?

Yes you have to have a herald with the loci to do it, which isn't hard since you can take 4 heralds in one HQ slot. Good times.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

 undertow wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

This. He lost eternal warrior. All of his attacks became psychic powers, meaning he will likely kill himself with perils. His invulnerable halfed, he no longer has rerolls, so his save technically -quartered-. He doesnt give rerolls to those around him which was why he was worth those points in the first place...

It's really quite sad. I'm glad I never bought him. Oh, but you get to reroll one dice per turn! *twinklie-eyes* Totally worth that price




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side, nurgling's get a 4+ cover wherever they are (Swarm's gives stealth, and they have shrouded for being nurgle) and a 2+ cover in any terrain, with move through cover and infiltrate. So, infiltrate them 18 inches from the enemy, in a big screen, and everything behind it will get a 4+ cover save since you are shooting through a unit, and the nurgling's will have one naturally. 4+. 4+ everywhere. At least for a turn or two, anyway xD

How's it looking for a monster mash list?

Evileyes wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

This. He lost eternal warrior. All of his attacks became psychic powers, meaning he will likely kill himself with perils. His invulnerable halfed, he no longer has rerolls, so his save technically -quartered-. He doesnt give rerolls to those around him which was why he was worth those points in the first place...

It's really quite sad. I'm glad I never bought him. Oh, but you get to reroll one dice per turn! *twinklie-eyes* Totally worth that price




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side, nurgling's get a 4+ cover wherever they are (Swarm's gives stealth, and they have shrouded for being nurgle) and a 2+ cover in any terrain, with move through cover and infiltrate. So, infiltrate them 18 inches from the enemy, in a big screen, and everything behind it will get a 4+ cover save since you are shooting through a unit, and the nurgling's will have one naturally. 4+. 4+ everywhere. At least for a turn or two, anyway xD

I hate to be really cynical but its quite obvious that most popular models were nerfed in a effort to drive sales. Fatey, Epidemius, The Changeling, Blood Crushers, Skull Taker, Flamers & Screamers all got the nerf bat to a shocking levels.

What units got buffs in this codex, well out the ones that people didn't buy before, Daemonettes, Karanak, Seekers & Soul Grinders,

-End Rant-

As for the codex as a whole its a strange beast. I think 2 Heralds are a must in most lists, they are a force multiplier for the large Infantry blocks which is going to be the optimum use.
The GUO is going to be a total beast if it gets Iron Arm off and when used wisely will have nothing to fear but poison weapons.
The LoC looks quite useful, as does the KoS.

Mono God builds limit the random effects of the Warp Storm chart to an effect, taking a 3 -4 God Army is running a risk.

Its going to take a fair few games before the dust settles, as it has been a huge over all to how this army works.


EDIT - Swarms don't have Sheath USR

A squad of 20 daemonettes with a level 2 or 3 PvP herald with invisibility wound be phenomenal.

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

Evileyes wrote:

 undertow wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
Yea, that and fateweaver were things we figured would go the way of the do-do bird.

It's almost painful how badly Fateweaver got nerfed. I'm thinking he's borderline unplayable. No EW on a 300 point toughness 5 model? No thanks.

This. He lost eternal warrior. All of his attacks became psychic powers, meaning he will likely kill himself with perils. His invulnerable halfed, he no longer has rerolls, so his save technically -quartered-. He doesnt give rerolls to those around him which was why he was worth those points in the first place...

It's really quite sad. I'm glad I never bought him. Oh, but you get to reroll one dice per turn! *twinklie-eyes* Totally worth that price




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the plus side, nurgling's get a 4+ cover wherever they are (Swarm's gives stealth, and they have shrouded for being nurgle) and a 2+ cover in any terrain, with move through cover and infiltrate. So, infiltrate them 18 inches from the enemy, in a big screen, and everything behind it will get a 4+ cover save since you are shooting through a unit, and the nurgling's will have one naturally. 4+. 4+ everywhere. At least for a turn or two, anyway xD

I hate to be really cynical but its quite obvious that most popular models were nerfed in a effort to drive sales. Fatey, Epidemius, The Changeling, Blood Crushers, Skull Taker, Flamers & Screamers all got the nerf bat to a shocking levels.

What units got buffs in this codex, well out the ones that people didn't buy before, Daemonettes, Karanak, Seekers & Soul Grinders,

-End Rant-

As for the codex as a whole its a strange beast. I think 2 Heralds are a must in most lists, they are a force multiplier for the large Infantry blocks which is going to be the optimum use.
The GUO is going to be a total beast if it gets Iron Arm off and when used wisely will have nothing to fear but poison weapons.
The LoC looks quite useful, as does the KoS.

Mono God builds limit the random effects of the Warp Storm chart to an effect, taking a 3 -4 God Army is running a risk.

Its going to take a fair few games before the dust settles, as it has been a huge over all to how this army works.


EDIT - Swarms don't have Sheath USR

Damn, you are right about swarms, i'm sure they used to :(

Damn

In general I think people are comparing the statline of the old/new Daemons too directly. I am going off of what I have heard as my codex has not arrived yet, but I do not think you can directly compare a lot of the units.

For example, Crushers lost a lot of survivability but gained a wound, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack and ignore cover. As someone who played with Fiends/Seekers before these guys are going to be REALLY fast. You cannot stupidly drop them in front of an entire gunline now and expect them to survive (-1 T, Lost EW, lost 3+) but they are pretty close to on par with Fiends overall.

Throw in the chance to generate Endurace as a psychic power now and there are some really interesting synergies (5+ Save, 5+ FNP, Eternal Warrior, It Will Not Die). In fact, given the incorporation of Biomancy powers through allies and the native daemon units (Heralds, Greater Daemons, Princes), I cannot conceive how Crushers were not going to have to change.

Fateweaver is a different animal now too - but being a psyker has some very interesting abilities. Pyromancy has Fiery Form to give you a 4++, Divination has Precog to reroll everything, Biomancy has Endurance and Iron Arm.

I will say this, I plan to bring a CSM Sorcerer with every Daemon army I play to provide either Telepathy or Biomancy buffs. Even better if Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons are reasonable - throw 3 Mastery levels on them, run them naked otherwise and turn them into a force multiplier.


Edit: Flamers are not bad - they just are different and Screamer return to being a niche unit - anyone who purchased 27 of them without the expectation that they would be brought in line with their costs was being silly and a jerk to anyone they played.

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

For example, Crushers lost a lot of survivability but gained a wound, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack and ignore cover.

Doesn't have Rage/counter, only has furious charge due to DoK rule.

You are thinking of MoK.

Also that wound does nothing really, seeing as you can now die to powerfists, missles, and all sorts of various armament. IG will easily put out enough to deal with them.

Bloodhorror wrote:

TzeentchNet wrote:
If they FAQ Heralds to be 4 per slot in allied armies (one can dream) they will be a power ally for CSM, but I'm not counting on it.

Why does it need to be FAQed?

You can only take the 4 heralds as 1 hq if daemons are the primary detatchment. As this was specifically worded this way I would not.hold my breath on this or the not joining ICs between CD and CSM. Seems at this point they want to make sure the imperium retains the strongest ally rules.

What i've been discovering, while playing about with my codex, is that greater daemon's, are going to be godly. Especially with 2 greater rewards (Which I find to be better than exalted rewards.)

Maybe it's the nurgle in me, but giving a 5 or 6 wound model, 3+ armour, or 4+ feel no pain, or rerolls to invulnerables...Gawd. That's epic. And there is no one you could roll and be totally dissapointed, all the greater rewards are...well...great xD

Even if you found your gift less than usefull, you could swap it for the exalted weapon of the god, which all seem to be at least moderately useful, though perhaps less so for greater daemons of nurgle

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

For example, Crushers lost a lot of survivability but gained a wound, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter Attack and ignore cover.

Doesn't have Rage/counter, only has furious charge due to DoK rule.

You are thinking of MoK.

Also that wound does nothing really, seeing as you can now die to powerfists, missles, and all sorts of various armament. IG will easily put out enough to deal with them.

I'm sad panda over Crushers, will probably still include some and try to figure out a way of using them as I love the models.

Wonder if there's any chance of that statline not including the jugger bonus? That would fix them mostly. Have to wait on the no doubt imminent FAQ.

Lesser Rewards
Magic Weapon - Default is an AP2 Master-crafted weapon. Not too shabby, but worth 10 points? Khorne gets an AP2 decapitating axe, Slaanesh gets a AP5 Rending sword that can cause additional wounds on a failed initiative test. Nurgle gets a ST+1 that causes additional wounds on a failed Toughness test. Tzeentch gets a ST+2 AP4 Concussive staff that detonates people if it kills them. The stand-outs look to be Tzeentch (S5 for the Herald) and Khorne (more possible Instant Death hits). The Slaanesh one is strange as everyone already HAS Rending in close combat, (might need a FAQ). Verdict: Good to excellent for the price. Maybe avoid if Slaanesh (unless Rending gets replaced) and Nurgle (Toughness tests are notorious wastes). Verdict: Decent deal (Slaanesh and Nurgle pick up the AP2 default) to Good (Tz and Kh weapon)
Burning Blood - The daemon causes d3 S4 AP5 No Cover hits if it takes a wound in close combat. This is normally pretty useless on Heralds but it's d3 hits per wound suffered, which could be somewhat useful if you just need to saturate saves or clear a few more bodies when you might die anyways. It will probably get its points back if you had a few more points to spend and already grabbed the magic weapon (but in that case why didn't you get a greater reward instead?). Verdict: Hard to justify.
Cleaving Strike - To-Hit rolls of 6 are made at 2x ST. Best when combined with Daemons of Slaanesh and/or you have an AP2 weapon. Heralds of Khorne strike at S10 if this procs. Makes Slaanesh heralds a more respectable S6 so they can actually hurt big guys they get stuck against. Verdict: Surprisingly useful.
Corrosive Breath - S5, AP5 Armourbane template. Not too shabby for 10 points if you happen to roll it! Provides your non-Horror daemon unit with a shooting attack, decent anti-transport (average roll will pen Armor 11) and a (GASP!) Overwatch capability! Verdict: Very good.
Spell Breaker - Adamantium Will. Pretty damn useless. Verdict: Bad.
Warp Breath - S8 AP4 Soul Blaze with 18" range. Considering the impressive BS of even Khorne daemon heralds this can be a surprisingly effective anti-tank shot or a way of laying down a blaze token and any extra hits is just gravy. Think of it this way: at least you get to shoot something in the shooting phase and may pop a transport before you charge the fleshbags inside! Verdict: Good.
Warp Strider - +1 to reserve rolls. Very situational unless you needed that push to justify deep striking the unit. Verdict: Almost always bad.

I'm really sore about Fiends right now. I finally finished my 12 fiends on Thursday. On Friday I bought the codex and now am ready to rage quit. So we now have -1S, -2A?!?, -3Ld, but gained 1W, 1I. Weak. We lose Rending and Hit& Run? The new abilities are horrible in comparison. In addition they increased the price of the unit by 5 points per model? I also can't comprehend how they don't have venomous sting as an upgrade option. The model has a giant scorpion tail on it!!! (Although we may have a new model coming since the previous model is now listed as Unavailable on the GW site.

The fateweaver, bloodcrushers, and flamers that I recently bought, as mention by another poster, are pretty much unplayable now. I agree with everything that was said about them in this thread. I rejoiced when I read that Bloodcrushers are now calvary. Then I saw that they lost their 3+ armor save. Lame.

I'm very upset that Nurgle units lost FnP as a base ability. They can buy it as a loci on a per unit basis, but plague marines still have it as a base ability? They should have at least kept it on GUO and Ku'Gath.

The more I read this Codex that madder I get at GW. I seriously want to send all my models and this codex back to GW and demand my money back. (as if that would ever work) I agree with the above. This codex is just a kick in the junk calculated to do nothing more than boost sales on the unpopular models. Oh look Nurglings might be worth fielding now you say. Well it just so happens that we just released a new model kit for them.

Could someone clarify something for me though? Say I give my great unclean one a balesword. It's strength user, poisoned 4+,
Does that mean I can't wound on a 2+ if my strength would allow it, or does it mean 4+ is the minimum I wound on, and I get the poison just for the rerolls?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quaden wrote:
I'm really sore about Fiends right now. I finally finished my 12 fiends on Thursday. On Friday I bought the codex and now am ready to rage quit. So we now have -1S, -2A?!?, -3Ld, but gained 1W, 1I. Weak. We lose Rending and Hit& Run? The new abilities are horrible in comparison. In addition they increased the price of the unit by 5 points per model? I also can't comprehend how they don't have venomous sting as an upgrade option. The model has a giant scorpion tail on it!!! (Although we may have a new model coming since the previous model is now listed as Unavailable on the GW site.

The fateweaver, bloodcrushers, and flamers that I recently bought, as mention by another poster, are pretty much unplayable now. I agree with everything that was said about them in this thread. I rejoiced when I read that Bloodcrushers are now calvary. Then I saw that they lost their 3+ armor save. Lame.

I'm very upset that Nurgle units lost FnP as a base ability. They can buy it as a loci on a per unit basis, but plague marines still have it as a base ability? They should have at least kept it on GUO and Ku'Gath.

The more I read this Codex that madder I get at GW. I seriously want to send all my models and this codex back to GW and demand my money back. (as if that would ever work) I agree with the above. This codex is just a kick in the junk calculated to do nothing more than boost sales on the unpopular models. Oh look Nurglings might be worth fielding now you say. Well it just so happens that we just released a new model kit for them.

Greater reward's can give your GUO, a chance to get 4+ feel no pain, 3+ armour, and/or rerolls to invulnerables. Biomancy, can also give him feel no pain, it will not die, eternal warrior, +d3 toughness and strength. Lot's of good replacement's for feel no pain for them

Fiends automatically have Rending attacks from Daemon of Slaanesh. They are still pretty terrible though. Their fluff mentions hit and running but they lack the USR.

For Poisoned, you roll at the poison number or less. See the USR in the Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, p. 40. If your S is => the T of the target you also re-roll failed Wounds.