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I have not gotten my book in the mail yet, but I have been liking most of what I have been reading online. My one question so far is what order do you roll for powers and gifts? Simultaneously, or one before the other? Because that could change a lot of the strategy.

 McNinja wrote:
Taking more and more control away from the player makes it more cinematic!

Fixed.

 Necrosis wrote:
Anyone tried using the hearld of Slaanesh and giving her a whip and psychic power that makes oppenents inititive -5? Thus every time they fail a save agaisnt it they must make an inititive test.

The whip is just a 2d6 assault weapon. Witstealer is the I-test weapon, and it's a melee weapon.

Fiends are more reliable


Also, what upgrade do people think will be good for a KoS, so far I'm think 2 greater rewards for an added chance of survivability, but is there anything better? Are extra mastery levels worth it?

Has anyone noticed yet that you can make Fateweaver unkillable?

Take the Truenames thinggy on a DP, and Fateweaver as your HQ. Every turn, hit Fateweaver with your DP truenameamajiggy, if it fails, use big birds reroll power. 8/9 chance to get a rerollable 2++.

It ain't cheap, but A Flying MC with prescience, and 2 shooty tzeentch powers that you have to shoot down and then assault to nullify effectively. You make the DP a DoN, and hide him in ruins...

Cute.

The only threat in the game I might consider the monolith's Portal of Exile would be worth the ink in it's write up to deal with.

 LordRogalDorn wrote:
I have not gotten my book in the mail yet, but I have been liking most of what I have been reading online. My one question so far is what order do you roll for powers and gifts? Simultaneously, or one before the other? Because that could change a lot of the strategy.

Determine warlord trait and rewards/gifts simultaneously, and then psychic powers after that. Obviously you won't roll your warlord trait and every gift in the same throw, but they are all in the same sub-phase of setting up the game. I would probably roll warlord trait (not allowed to change this... it is what it is), then rewards/gifts (you now have the option to switch gifts from the rolled reward to the primaris reward if it better suits your overall strategy), and then obviously then proceed to psychic powers as defined in the rules.

To clarify rewards/gifts: Lets say we have 2 characters getting rewards... Characters A and B. Character A has a lesser and greater, so rolls on the lesser table (rolls 4), then rolls on the greater table (rolls 2), then after all rewards have been rolled for is allowed to switch out any rolled reward for the default primaris reward (so, let's say Char A switches greater reward 2 for default greater reward). Once character A is finalized, you then proceed to the next character. Character B purchased 2 lesser rewards. He rolls on the lesser table (rolls 4), then rolls again on the lesser table (rolls 4), but he can't be assigned two of the same reward, so he has to immediately roll for the second reward again (rolls 6), and decides to keep those rewards. You can have two or more of the same reward in your army overall, but can't have two of the same reward on any single character.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:



Also, what upgrade do people think will be good for a KoS, so far I'm think 2 greater rewards for an added chance of survivability, but is there anything better? Are extra mastery levels worth it?

im not impressed with slaanesh magic, but a lucky roll on telepathy for invisibility would be great for this army. Could be fixed with heralds though and Keepers should perhaps play the low point angle rather than focus on mastery levels.
The whip reward sounds like a must have, so two rolls on greater rewards sounds like a great deal.

Seems interesting.
Waiting for the new book to turn up but i can see im going to have to shell out yet again to change my armies around -_-

I run mono khorne and mono tzeentch, and by the seems of it, both took a huge hit.

So, do i shelf them for a few years?
Or do i pay out on them to re-arrange everything, or use that money to start up a nurgle army? -_-

How are the Beasts of Nurgle looking?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Taking more and more control away from the player makes me want to create house rules to disregard much or all of the randomness!

Fixed.

Double fixed

 McNinja wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
From what I'm hearing, one of the big issues is randomness.

Because randomness in a game based off dice rolls is a bad thing.

Oh wait.

No, you're right, the player should only have marginal control over the game. It's perfectly ok that the player can lose (no matter the skill) because of a few bad dice rolls on random tables that completely feth his army right up without him actually being able to do anything about it.

Taking more and more control away from the player is NEVER ok.

The player should craft the army to their liking and play with that, not have to craft a list around random-ass tables and hope for the best every game.

Yeah there's a difference between a game decided by a thousand dice rolls, and a game decided by 3 dice rolls. I don't like the randomness so will probably from now on simply use my horrors/heralds as allies. Shame since I'd love to splash out some Tzeentch goodness. I may buy some anyway simply because they're so fun to paint.

Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

Well just thumbed through the book. Wow, underwhelmed at best. I'm sure my expectations were to high. I'll have to look into some horde builds or something interesting.

What's so good about the Whip of Dispair? I keep getting told it's a must have?

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

what was that? Bad stuff? Yeah. Bad stuff. The game, while slightly random, is a game of percentages and dice. You riled hundreds of dice during a norm game, but those don't necessarily determine the outcome of your game. A dead warlord won't ruin your day, an but having a unit wiped by the demonic instability rule would. Warlord traits are cool, until you roll one that does not affect your army in any way and you opponent rolls one that greatly benefits his army. The game isn't random. You can make guesses based on the percent of likeliness of something to happen that that thing will happen, like hitting with a space marine in shooting. But when there's an equal chance to gain all of your wounds back or lose several wounds and possibly give a kp to your opponent because of a bad roll, that's stupid.

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

Not sure if serious...

My gaming group picks Warlord traits as well... we roll for psychic powers still, but I don't imagine it's that cheesy. Seriously, it's awesome and really makes 40k more strategic.

It could be worse, imagine if you had a slightly higher than 1 in 6 chance of getting absolutely nothing for your points.

well, it certainly looks like time to hang up my fateweaver stripes.... Loved that guy, ran him literally for 2 and half years but sounds like I'll be shelving him for some GUO's. (maybe I can just repaint fateweaver green?)

I'm still interested to see what I can do with bloodcrushers. I have like 12 of them sitting around somewhere along with 9 flamers and 12 fiends. So troops wise? Get more nurgle? (only got 10 plague bearers) got 10 daemonnettes, got like 18 seekers so I'm in buisness still? got like 30 bloodletters so I might just make a game of this dex yet! (can't wait till my book gets here)

Just please someone answer me this: I built like 4 daemon princess (yes, they are chicks) in the past, will I get to still use them all in a list or is that gone now and I'll probably be subbing them in as heralds? (40mm bases swap?)

Also, is there any skyfire in the codex at all currently? Seems like if we have to go all heralds, where does that leave any FMC cause a single aegis +quad gun just doesn't cut it now a days in todays days of fliers.

Cant say random tables bother me too much, it certainly encourages you to try different tactics which I think can only be a good thing.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

Not sure if serious...

My gaming group picks Warlord traits as well... we roll for psychic powers still, but I don't imagine it's that cheesy. Seriously, it's awesome and really makes 40k more strategic.

so DE can guarentee Night Fighting First turn, and get a free turn of shooting?
so CSM can guarentee PE SM bubble when playing SM?

wow, I kinda want to play in your gaming group as I play DE and CSM.

 sudojoe wrote:
well, it certainly looks like time to hang up my fateweaver stripes.... Loved that guy, ran him literally for 2 and half years but sounds like I'll be shelving him for some GUO's. (maybe I can just repaint fateweaver green?)

I'm still interested to see what I can do with bloodcrushers. I have like 12 of them sitting around somewhere along with 9 flamers and 12 fiends. So troops wise? Get more nurgle? (only got 10 plague bearers) got 10 daemonnettes, got like 18 seekers so I'm in buisness still? got like 30 bloodletters so I might just make a game of this dex yet! (can't wait till my book gets here)

Just please someone answer me this: I built like 4 daemon princess (yes, they are chicks) in the past, will I get to still use them all in a list or is that gone now and I'll probably be subbing them in as heralds? (40mm bases swap?)

Also, is there any skyfire in the codex at all currently? Seems like if we have to go all heralds, where does that leave any FMC cause a single aegis +quad gun just doesn't cut it now a days in todays days of fliers.

I beleive princes are a hq choice with Greater Daemons making them a Heavy choice, so I guess 3 is the max unless you do double force org.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

FWIW, lots of tourneys change the Warlord system a bit, though straight up picking one is a bit extreme. I've seen "roll 1d6 and pick from any table" as a good compromise.

As it stands, 80%+ of the results are situational, useless, or negligible. A small percent are game changers.

 Xeriapt wrote:

I beleive princes are a hq choice with Greater Daemons making them a Heavy choice, so I guess 3 is the max unless you do double force org.

You could field 4, with the Greater Daemon as one hq, three princes (same mark) as heavies, and a fourth prince (different mark) as a second hq.

 Exergy wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 McNinja wrote:
Nah, just see if your FLGS or friends will allow house rules to reduce the randomness. My friends and I pick out warlord traits and psychic powers.

This sounds like a horrible thing. Wait, scratch that, it IS a horrible thing. Picking warlord traits, and powers, and adjusting the warp table?

Your are dabbling with dangerous powers, matt ward powers, powers of hard dickens, powers that you cannot get others to comprehend.

If you're going to complain about the book being too random, in a game based on dice rolls, and then house rule all the bad stuff away, please don't even post.

Not sure if serious...

My gaming group picks Warlord traits as well... we roll for psychic powers still, but I don't imagine it's that cheesy. Seriously, it's awesome and really makes 40k more strategic.

so DE can guarentee Night Fighting First turn, and get a free turn of shooting?
so CSM can guarentee PE SM bubble when playing SM?

wow, I kinda want to play in your gaming group as I play DE and CSM.

It's actually not as broken as you're making it sound (or... well, broken at all for that matter). And yeah, DE can get Night Fighting (or Nids, as I like to do) but obviously you're trading off other useful abilities like Scorelord, Legendary Fighter, etc.

The biggest issue i see with changing or disregarding the random tables are how the rest of the game is designed. I have found in the past when messing with game rules that unforseen problems pop up. That has always made me leery of messing with anything in this game as i don't know what my change will effect. No matter what, if you change something to benefit yourself (let's face it, that's all that is happening when people want to "fix" a rule they don't like) you end up ruining things for someone else in the group.

It seems like hordes of demons with FMC support is the way to go. Its crazy how good demonettes are IMO. They have 2A base ws5 I5 and because they are demons of slaanesh rend. At 9 points that's just sick. I imagine 3 lumps of 20 with some fiends and seekers for the early press would make an awesome army.

Flesh hounds are awesome now too, ws5 w2 a2 and FC all on beasts which DTW on a 2+!

I can't believe how cheap soul grinders are 135.... why on earth is my defiler 195 when that thing has skyfire standard and 13/13/11 armor. With phlegm he is still 30 points less and better! Gona have to ally one to use as my defiler sub.

Sad to see only 1 herald for allied detachment was looking forward to dual HoT casting divination on two forge fiends in my back 9 I guess one will do

Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

Anyone else think that the lord of change is an absolute beast now? for my csm detachment i plan on running a LoC and a Prince both mastery level 3 the awesome amount of firepower they can can put out is amazing!

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
Anyone else think that the lord of change is an absolute beast now? for my csm detachment i plan on running a LoC and a Prince both mastery level 3 the awesome amount of firepower they can can put out is amazing!

How about giving him a lesser reward for the staff so he is S8 and still ap2 and detonates every guy he smacks in the face. This made me literally lol when I imagined him swimming in the green tide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

Ah nice catch, funny how I assumed it was as good as kharnes lol.

 azreal13 wrote:
Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

Flesh Hounds may not bowl you over at first glance (partly because Seekers look so shiny), but they're sneaky good. Especially with Karanak (Rage), they can throw a ton of S5 wounds on stuff. Seems like there are a number of things like that in the codex...stuff that doesn't jump off the page at first glance but is pretty good in reality.

TzeentchNet wrote:
The new Daemon warlord traits are far more useful than the BRB ones. I also don't think that daemons are as random as people think - most of the Warp Storm results benefit you unless you run a four-god army, and the random gifts have very nice default results if you don't get exactly what you want.

The only problematic part comes in with their psychic powers (specifically, unlucky Deny the Witch and Runes of Warding), but everyone that wants to go psyker heavy has the issue of not rolling up the perfect combination of powers or facing Eldar.

Even if you have units from all four, the 5-9 results don't really hit that hard, and a few choice instruments can eliminate most of the risk anyway. My first list includes all 4 gods, although Slaanesh is represented most. So I'll have a couple Slaanesh instruments in the mix for some protection there, and take my chances on the odd Khorne unit, etc. The 2-4 results are something to worry about, LOL. The 5-9 results, not so much...they'll likely help more than they hurt.

And as a Tyranid player, I've HATED Runes of Psychic Smackdown for quite some time. The good news there is that they likely have a limited shelf life in their current incarnation.