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pepe5454 wrote:
I really can't say if they were OP or not as over the years I can't remember facing them so if I did they didn't stand out to me at all. But if when he thinks something is OP he is thinking of just that one codex it would explain the disagreement as a matter of perspective.

I'm not sure if I would really use OP. "OP" is probably more reasonably attributed to the recent Flamers and Screamers. It's more accurate to describe them as More P, at least in respect to what they are competing against. The current iteration keeps all the cavalry pretty close together in terms of speed/power/resiliency, with minor ticks in one category at the expense of others. For what ever reason, up to and including the 4th and 5th edition paradigms they mainly were in, the old Crushers were taken almost exclusively over the competition, and I don't think it was because any of the other elites were particularly bad. Streamling them in this sense allows the fundamental interactions between the various units of each God interact in similar fashion, which in turn streamlines the Codexes internal mechanics. Its a deft design decision.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Useful" or "Powerful" is a far cry from "OP". All OP units are useful. Not all useful units are OP.

Bloodcrushers got hit with the biggest pendulum swing I've seen in quite some time, and the fluff that talks up their toughness and thick armour just makes it all the more hilarious.

I do agree the Fluff should have been updated at least a little. Three wounds is tough(ish), but what ever resiliency they have has nothing to do with "armor" or lack there of.

One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

Yeah no overwatch, they do have more melee options now.

Blue horrors, cant see them doing much, iridescent horror can take a gift for melee and its likely a herald will be in the unit which can also take combat oriented gifts.

If the unit can survive the initial charge I would use anther unit with decent combat abilities to bail them out so have one close by for support.


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Plague beasties could be good in this role because of attention seeker. Assuming your not adverse to using multiple gods, if your going mono tzeentch chariots would be a good way to help out horrors in combat.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

One minor exception: the extra shots (actually hits) conferred by the Blasted Standard can be invoked in Overwatch (the rule specifically mentions the possibility). (Although even here the language is wonky, since it refers to "an additional 2D6 Strength 4 AP- hits." [emphasis mine]

 tinfoil wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

One minor exception: the extra shots (actually hits) conferred by the Blasted Standard can be invoked in Overwatch (the rule specifically mentions the possibility). (Although even here the language is wonky, since it refers to "an additional 2D6 Strength 4 AP- hits." [emphasis mine]

Sadly its only one use, although they are auto hits so that would be a surprise to charge into.


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The wording is indeed weird, to me it implies you need to be able to fire something in overwatch to use it.

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

Which is going to happen after a round of combat generally. Horrors used to be decent tarpit units, but will fold quickly now due to Daemonic Instability.


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 Xeriapt wrote:

 tinfoil wrote:

 MandalorynOranj wrote:
One small note that just popped into my head... Pink Horrors have no Overwatch capability. So if these guys get charged, there's nothing you can do but wait for them to be taken off the board.

One minor exception: the extra shots (actually hits) conferred by the Blasted Standard can be invoked in Overwatch (the rule specifically mentions the possibility). (Although even here the language is wonky, since it refers to "an additional 2D6 Strength 4 AP- hits." [emphasis mine]

Sadly its only one use, although they are auto hits so that would be a surprise to charge into.


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The wording is indeed weird, to me it implies you need to be able to fire something in overwatch to use it.

While they mentioned being fired in Overwatch, I think the text said something like this: "these additional hits are added to any caused by the other shooting attack". I don't have my Codex with me, and that's from memory, but the way I played it was that it can't be used by itself, it must accompany some other shooting attack. I was the Daemon player in this game BTW.

I think they added the overwatch language in there on the off chance that your herald gets a Daemonic Reward that functions like a normal shooting weapon, which would be usable for Overwatch. This would allow the standard to be used when charged.

Just a thought, without my book to hand, but Psyker Herald rocking Cacaphonic Choir on a Steed accompanying a unit of Fiends = the end of Grey Knights as we know them?

 azreal13 wrote:
Just a thought, without my book to hand, but Psyker Herald rocking Cacaphonic Choir on a Steed accompanying a unit of Fiends = the end of Grey Knights as we know them?

Not at all, the Fiends' -1 to Leadership only counts for Psychic checks. You've also only got a 1/3 chance to get that power, so I wouldn't be planning any lists around it even if the -1 was all the time.

Hmm... what to do vs. double bio dakka Flyrants?

They seem to cause a lot of trouble

Flyrants are a problem as are AV12 flyers, Heldrakes ...
A BS3 Str7 gun will not do it. You have to get tthose flyrants and drakes grounded ... then your list can tear them apart. I played against a list sporting a tricked out LoC, Herald with lvl 3 and steed, a bunch of daemonettes with aluress and blade, a squad of seekers, a skull cannon and two slaanesh grinders. The instruments icons got the grinders up close and personal turn two ... the LoC had scryer's gaze as one of its powers. So he had outflanking seekers, daemonettes and grinders up close and attacking turns two/three. This is your best defense. If you can get the list into cc early you can cut down flyer damage. Problem with this list is that it wins assaults too easily and then are left hanging in the open way too often.
It came down to if he could weather the return fire once the initial assaults were done. I was playing a pretty standard Drop SW/SM allies list. He could not. A close game but ...

Big horrors units with a herald and prescience are going to be useful against flyers, lots of shots with re-rolls to hit and they can be str 6? Sounds good to me.

Seriously - against AV12 and a rune priest or farseer? My rune priests ruined my opponents day ... heralds and LoC with lvl3 - ha.

Well if your going to say againt flyers and anti psyker abilities then yeah its going to be harder but then it becomes an argument of escalation.

You say there is a farseer or runepriest, I say kill them off fast etc.

It's not enough shots that I'd rely on it. On average, you're only getting about 14 shots from the Horrors, and then 7 more from the Herald. Against AV10 and 11 flyers, I like those odds, but against 12 it's iffy. Plus, if you get bad rolls for your number of shots, you're hosed.

 azreal13 wrote:
Agreed on hounds, but collar is +2, not 2+.

So usually on a 4+

I went online and ordered a model for Karanak (AoW Cerberus, can't stand the GW derpy one) as soon as I read his entry!

I'm annoyed as I'm using Rackham minis as my regular hounds, so expanding them past 5 is going to be a problem!

I hate the current Fleshhounds too: I used the previous edition ones that look like dogs with spikes coming out of them and molded three heads onto one body to be Karanak: the two outer heads are placed higher, and the middle one is lower. It sounds a bit awkward, but it looks awesome-doesn't even look like a conversion, actually. I can post it in my image folder once I get back from my work trip, if anyone else uses those older models and wants an idea to base him off of.

I ordered these as my flesh hounds. Their just dire wolves from fantasy.


I ordered this for my Karanak. Its from the Mordehiem line.

What does everyone think about going Daemons Undivided? I'm not sure if it's worth it or not.

It depends; would you have a primary faction, (e.g. 1000 pts of nurgle in a 2000 pt army) with smaller factions, or would they all be equal (e.g. 500 pts of Khorne, 500 of Nurgle, etc.) If it's a primary, I think you'd probably be OK. If it's split, it's probably a worse idea.

I'd go Nurgle primary with elements of the other pantheons on the side.

Thinking of using:

HQ

GUO or Skarbrand - the Rage and Hatred on Daemonettes is sick.
Heralds of Nurgle and Slaanesh.

Troops

Plaguebearers to hold objectives.
Daemonettes to charge and attack.
Possibly one unit of Bloodletters for AP3 - I don't think it is necessary though.

Elites

Beasts of Nurgle - I really like them and they draw fire like dry wood in a forest. Provide good cover too.

Fast Attack

Seekers - too good not to use.
Plague Drones - can really hammer units.

Heavy Support

Cannon of Khorne - obvious uses here.
Soulgrinder - again very useful.