Out of those two close combat centri chater who is better in close combat?
Two scenarios for rating:
-Overall chapter effectiveness ( rating entire chapter in close combat battle from tactics to training and weapons ).
-Close combat battle between two chapter masters ( Dante vs. Helbrecht ), because they should be the best fighters in the Chapter.
Not against each other in battle but rather their service record, training and effectiveness in combat.
We all know that in that case BT would won because they are at least 6:1 ratio.
I would say Black Templars, as I think they are more focused on CC than BA. While BA have a love of speed and flight which lends itself to CC, for the most part they still follow the Codex Astartes.
However I think BA win on the Chapter Master battle. Dante's special rules depict him as the unquestionable master of jump packs as well as a hit and run style combatant. I don't think Helbrecht has an answer for that. Worse than that however is that Dante is not the chapter's best fighter, that goes to Mephiston.
Marine for Marine, I think this goes to the Blood Angels. Blood Angels martial prowess is one way in which they stay focused so as not to fall to the Red Thirst. If they give into the Red Thirst anyway you better hope you have room to fall back, because they are going to rip you apart in close combat, with their bare hands if necessary.
when mutant goes into black thirst or red rage and maybe casts a spell , BT would go so hard on them, that even the team Edward (successors) wouldn't save them...High Marshall would pummel Dante to the ground too...
I would say that BA have a higher chance of taking out the BT first because BA specialize in Assaults and Deep Striking, both key elements in CC warfare.
You'd have a better chance at taking out the enemy in CC if you're the first to close the gap between the two and use the momentum of the assault to your advantage.
Since when does the chapter master = best fighter?
Why would that even matter when it comes to leadership? The best fighter in the chapter could happen to be a weak minded fool who could easily fall to chaos or lead the chapter in a crusade directed right at the source of the tyranids all through blind pride... Being a good fighter doesn't make you a good leader.
Obviously they would have a high level of skill but technically the best fighter in the chapter?
I'd guess Mephiston isn't even the best technical fighter in the chapter, he just wins out on physical capabilities.
I would say that BA have a higher chance of taking out the BT first because BA specialize in Assaults and Deep Striking, both key elements in CC warfare.
You'd have a better chance at taking out the enemy in CC if you're the first to close the gap between the two and use the momentum of the assault to your advantage.
It'd be a close match, IMO.
Void__Dragon wrote: Also, seriously, lol at the notion that Helbrecht is beating Dante more often than not. Dante creams him. This is coming from a Black Templar fanboy.
I gotta agree with all of the above for the most part. It is quite a difficult and close comparison, though. I'd say for the "overall close combat effectiveness" thing, it goes to the Templars. They live and breath for the sweet, sweet nectar that is destroying their enemy up close and personal. It's their specialisation from training day to death. However, this doesn't make them more effective overall as Space Marines. Blood Angels enjoy the flexibility of a Codex force which also happens to enjoy a penchant for assault and deep striking tactics - the Astartes' most effective realm of warfare. Also, CQB isn't strickly one and the same as melee martial prowess. For example, squad for squad, I'd say a crusader squad has a tactical squad beat at CC, and even perhaps an assault squad. However, marine for marine a Blood Angel might well be the better martial artist.
If pitted against one another, I'd say Templars win squad for squad (and chapter for chapter) at CC. But, I'd say death company or black raged Angels have the edge over crusader marines. Also, I'd say the best combatants of the Blood Angels, whoever they may be, would win in a duel with the best Templars, with the possible exception of the Emperor's Champion who would give them the toughest fight they'd ever had. Either way, its close. As a long time Templars fanboy I've gotta admit I expected the poll to lean heavily towards the Angels, due to apart from the "overall effectiveness at CC" category, I'd say they have the edge.
Just pushed the poll to BA territory (as of this post) for pure tabletop experience; You don't know hell until you've had a trio of heroic intervention DoA Vanguard marines land in the middle of your force and proceed to rip your entire army a new one. Then the assault squads come in and yeah, they sit there but who the has time to shoot at them cause you just lost two tactical squads and your landraider, the contents of which got massacred and suddenly *tableflip* the horror is over.
So in terms of tabletop effectiveness the BA have it for me. In terms of fluff? the BT win purely because they have more marines. 1:1 the BA would win imho, and DC will take more than twice or thrice their number As for best fighter Dante would smack that fly and look for a real challenge
Full chapter effectiveness, Black Templars. They have the numbers and rage to accomplish their mission no matter the cost and have no need for silly deep striking land raiders.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Just pushed the poll to BA territory (as of this post) for pure tabletop experience; You don't know hell until you've had a trio of heroic intervention DoA Vanguard marines land in the middle of your force and proceed to rip your entire army a new one. Then the assault squads come in and yeah, they sit there but who the has time to shoot at them cause you just lost two tactical squads and your landraider, the contents of which got massacred and suddenly *tableflip* the horror is over.
So in terms of tabletop effectiveness the BA have it for me. In terms of fluff? the BT win purely because they have more marines. 1:1 the BA would win imho, and DC will take more than twice or thrice their number
As for best fighter Dante would smack that fly and look for a real challenge
Will have to disagree there, mate. I see your DS Vanguard and raise you a pair of LRC filled to the brim with Crusaders just begging to flay you alive. As well as the Champion that has taken down Skulltaker in single combat. Or the Chaplain that massacres a terminator squad without a second thought. Alone.
Also, fluffwise, The Templar will knock 7 colours of gak out of the BA pretty much every time. Sure, you have DC. But in order to actually stand a chance of annihilating the Templars you'd need 2,000 if your estimation is correct. After Your red boys have killed their worth, too.
Table Top Dante vs Helbrecht ain't no walk in the park either. The only reason I'd go Dante is because of the Axe. Plus which Helbrecht is much, much cheaper than Dante. With more attacks on the charge. Who goes first would also be a deciding factor what with everyone wielding Melta. Otherwise it'd be 2 grots in a slap-fight. In fluff, I'm not sure who would win
Anyone who seriously thinks Dante would lose to Helbrecht needs to think his or her opinion over very carefully. It's just not a contest. Helbrecht has been Chapter Master for 10 years, Dante for 1100.
In strict Close Combat (as in melee) I'd give the edge to the Templars. That's all they live to do. In close quarter combat the Blood Angels catch up and probably fight evenly with the Templars, and at mid-long range the mobility of the Blood Angels wins the day. Since both Chapters specialise in Deep Strike warfare (Pods for Templars, Assault Squads and Sanguinary Guard for Blood Angels) it'd be an interesting confrontation where both Chapters try to beat the other at their own game.
Table Top Dante vs Helbrecht ain't no walk in the park either. The only reason I'd go Dante is because of the Axe. Plus which Helbrecht is much, much cheaper than Dante. With more attacks on the charge. Who goes first would also be a deciding factor what with everyone wielding Melta. Otherwise it'd be 2 grots in a slap-fight.
Unless Helbrecht manages to Combi-Melta Dante to death Dante will win. He's got a (non-oneshot) melta pistol and a weapon that can actually pierce Helbrecht's armour, whereas the Sword of the High Marshals is AP3. Then there's the Death Mask.
Voted Blood Angels, because hey - of course I did. :p
Dante is obviously going to smash Helbrecht in close combat, both in game and in fluff. Dante has over a thousand years of experience, a jump-pack, a hit-and-run style AND in combat his power axe will bite through Helbrecht's armour while he still has his usual 2+. And as already mentioned, he isn't even the strongest fighter in the Chapter... Mephiston is.
The actual Chapter fight is much closer. But - and bearing in mind that Blood Angels can load LRCs full of deathstar goodness too, so that one won't help you - I posit Black Templars a question. What do you have that man-for-man will beat Death Company in combat?
Super Ready wrote: Voted Blood Angels, because hey - of course I did. :p
Dante is obviously going to smash Helbrecht in close combat, both in game and in fluff. Dante has over a thousand years of experience, a jump-pack, a hit-and-run style AND in combat his power axe will bite through Helbrecht's armour while he still has his usual 2+. And as already mentioned, he isn't even the strongest fighter in the Chapter... Mephiston is.
The actual Chapter fight is much closer. But - and bearing in mind that Blood Angels can load LRCs full of deathstar goodness too, so that one won't help you - I posit Black Templars a question. What do you have that man-for-man will beat Death Company in combat?
...sorry - DOUBLE THUNDER HAMMER Death Company.
Dozens of Battle-barges.
Also, LC Terminators with Furious Charge would probably do the trick without breaking a sweat.
Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
FNP is 5+ and the Terminators strike first with 5 S5 reroll to wound attacks. It's not even a challenge, especially considering how much cheaper a LC Terminator squad would be compared to double TH Death Company. The point is, Death Company are MEQ. Yes, they're very resilient and killy, but still MEQ. BT Lightning Claw Terminators murder MEQ.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
FNP is 5+ and the Terminators strike first with 5 S5 reroll to wound attacks. It's not even a challenge, especially considering how much cheaper a LC Terminator squad would be compared to double TH Death Company. The point is, Death Company are MEQ. Yes, they're very resilient and killy, but still MEQ. BT Lightning Claw Terminators murder MEQ.
not going on this point, but fluff wise. Doubt theyd have enough to even double hammer the entire unit anyway all points aside, we have more DC than you have LC termies. and we don't hide behind the fleshbags either
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
FNP is 5+ and the Terminators strike first with 5 S5 reroll to wound attacks. It's not even a challenge, especially considering how much cheaper a LC Terminator squad would be compared to double TH Death Company. The point is, Death Company are MEQ. Yes, they're very resilient and killy, but still MEQ. BT Lightning Claw Terminators murder MEQ.
not going on this point, but fluff wise. Doubt theyd have enough to even double hammer the entire unit anyway all points aside, we have more DC than you have LC termies. and we don't hide behind the fleshbags either
If the Templars have the same ratio of veterans as a normal Chapter, there's 600 Sword Brethren. Let's assume that half of those have access to Terminator Armour. That's almost a third of a normal Chapter. Are you trying to tell me that a third of all Blood Angels are Death Company?
And it doesn't even matter; the entire Chapter could be made up of Death Company. Templars still win the orbital war and thus can sit back and bomb Planet X into dust.
CC was the name of the game. Lets face it, if we were being realistic in any way if two of the most bad :cuss: chapters in the imperium had a groundwar going on the guard would come up and virus-bomb the plnet out of existence, erase all records of either chapter and whistle like nothing happened, because they would not want the risk of the victors being the chaos-crazed ones (not that BT could be them but still. BA hate horus just as much). Also, your winning by numbers, not skill. In a CQB situation with even numbers it would lean more towards BA for the whole maneuverability thing. Not much, mind you
Thatguyhsagun wrote: CC was the name of the game. Lets face it, if we were being realistic in any way if two of the most bad :cuss: chapters in the imperium had a groundwar going on the guard would come up and virus-bomb the plnet out of existence, erase all records of either chapter and whistle like nothing happened, because they would not want the risk of the victors being the chaos-crazed ones (not that BT could be them but still. BA hate horus just as much). Also, your winning by numbers, not skill. In a CQB situation with even numbers it would lean more towards BA for the whole maneuverability thing. Not much, mind you
The BT can't really take part in the first scenario. They'd have to make too many records public, exposing their non-Codex numbers and shaming the legacy of Dorn. It's unthinkable for anything less than saving the Empire.
All rules discussion aside, I don't think the BA have the same reputation as the BT for emphasis on melee combat. As a general matter therefore I'd expect any given BT to be better at melee combat than any given BA.
Codices say BT are near a pre-Heresy legion for number of Marine and Neophities.
Blood Angels are cursed, and every century more Marine succumb to the Black Rage/Red Thirst.
So BT'd win IMHO.
For Dante vs Hellbreatch I'm not sure, but I think the former is more powerful then the latter.
For full disclosure - when I asked if there was anything to match the DC in combat, I meant, is there anything that BA don't have themselves. Yes of course LC Termies would do a good job of slicing them, but our own LC Termies might have something to say about that. Point taken on not realistically being able to arm them ALL with double-hammers, though...
Super Ready wrote: For full disclosure - when I asked if there was anything to match the DC in combat, I meant, is there anything that BA don't have themselves. Yes of course LC Termies would do a good job of slicing them, but our own LC Termies might have something to say about that. Point taken on not realistically being able to arm them ALL with double-hammers, though...
Yeah, this is a good point.
In the fluff, the Death Company are pretty balls out awesome in combat, tearing through huge numbers of enemies in close combat in ways only Khornate Berzerkers might be able to match.
Black Templars might be somewhat F'd in the A if they fought their normal way of combat.
In the fluff, the Sword Brethren are pretty balls out awesome in combat, tearing through huge numbers of enemies in close combat in ways only Khornate Berzerkers might be able to match.
Blood Angels might be somewhat F'd in the A if they fought their normal way of combat.
Void__Dragon wrote: Only the difference is my statement is true, and yours isn't.
Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.
Let's put it this way: in-game, the madness of the Death Company is represented by them having FNP, Furious Charge and Rage. Sword Brethren have Furious Charge and Rage and are from a Codex that's a whole edition older than the current BA Codex. Every single Marine in Codex: Black Templars has Rage (because let's face it, why take any other vow?). In fact, Sword Brethren are, apart from only being WS4 instead of WS5, equivalent to Khorne Berzerkers on the charge. Thus, the comparison to Khornate Berzerkers is almost spot-on.
Also, remember who the guy who bested Khârn during the HH was? His name starts with "S", but doesn't end with "anguinor". The most axe-crazy, balls-to-the-walls Berzerker there is was laid low by a Black Templar (well, technically an Imperial Fist at the time).
Even then, the Death Company wouldn't negate the fact that the Templars have a 6 to 1 advantage.
Void__Dragon wrote: Only the difference is my statement is true, and yours isn't.
Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.
Insanity =\= combat prowess.
I'm not sure what any of that supports the assertion that Sword Brethran are, match for match, superior close-combatants than DC marines.
I prefer the Black Templars to the Blood Angels, but going by what we've seen of Blood Angels, I'd say that they're superior 1 on 1 to Templars in swordsmanship. In Fear to Tread, when the entire legion simultaneously and spontaneously succumbed to the Red Thirst, they started kicking an entire planet's worth of daemon ass so hard that the Greater Daemon was literally crying out of fear.
Think about that. A daemon. A greater daemon. Crying. In fear of his life.
Void__Dragon wrote: Only the difference is my statement is true, and yours isn't.
Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.
Insanity =\= combat prowess.
I'm not sure what any of that supports the assertion that Sword Brethran are, match for match, superior close-combatants than Black Rage marines.
I'd argue that a warrior that doesn't fall dead down after combat regardless of outcome is superior to one that does. And the entire schtick of the Death Company is that they're insane and thus fight better than an average battle-brother. I was simply applying that logic to the Templars.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.
Let's put it this way: in-game, the madness of the Death Company is represented by them having FNP, Furious Charge and Rage. Sword Brethren have Furious Charge and Rage and are from a Codex that's a whole edition older than the current BA Codex. Every single Marine in Codex: Black Templars has Rage (because let's face it, why take any other vow?). In fact, Sword Brethren are, apart from only being WS4 instead of WS5, equivalent to Khorne Berzerkers on the charge. Thus, the comparison to Khornate Berzerkers is almost spot-on.
Also, remember who the guy who bested Khârn during the HH was? His name starts with "S", but doesn't end with "anguinor". The most axe-crazy, balls-to-the-walls Berzerker there is was laid low by a Black Templar (well, technically an Imperial Fist at the time).
Even then, the Death Company wouldn't negate the fact that the Templars have a 6 to 1 advantage.
Using gameplay will get you no brownie points here.
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber. Trying to paint all Black Templars as Death Company is IMHO being disingenuous.
Sigismund was apparently a total badass, on par with any Astartes of that era, true. What does a man who has been dead for thousands of years have to do with the current Black Templars though?
The thread maker made it clear that he is looking for comparisons disregarding the numbers advantage, because of course they would win with it.
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DarthMarko wrote: But still it's a funny quote...If it really bugs you I will remove it.....
Nah, I just felt the sudden urge to bash Valdor. You can keep it lol.
Custodians in general kind of piss me off. They are the reason I couldn't be a Primarch. I'd kill every single one I met, for having the audacity to act smug to one of the Emperor's sons.
Also @Blax Insanity =\= combat prowess can be applied to BA too....
Yeah. That's why you don't see me saying "The Death Company were supremely skilled fighters because they were insane".
You see me saying "the Death Company are supremely skilled fighters" because the fluff quite clearly showed us that a legion of Death Company marines slaughtered an entire planet of daemons, comprised not just of Khorne daemons but also Slaneesh, with such casual ease that the greater daemon in charge of those armies was literally gaking on itself in terror at the Blood Angels' badassery.
That's why I'm saying Death Company marines are badass.
Also @Blax Insanity =\= combat prowess can be applied to BA too....
Yeah. That's why you don't see me saying "The Death Company were supremely skilled fighters because they were insane".
You see me saying "the Death Company are supremely skilled fighters" because the fluff quite clearly showed us that a legion of Death Company marines slaughtered an entire planet of daemons, comprised not just of Khorne daemons but also Slaneesh, with such casual ease that the greater daemon in charge of those armies was literally gaking on itself in terror at the Blood Angels' badassery.
That's why I'm saying Death Company marines are badass.
Blood Angels in Fear to Tread were not suffering from the Black Rage, it was far more along the lines of the Red Thirst. Not really sure if that helps or hurts your argument, I just wanted to specify.
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber. Trying to paint all Black Templars as Death Company is IMHO being disingenuous.
I'm not trying to paint them as Death Company, I'm trying to paint them as "Death Company light". Assault Terminators bash the living daylights out of stuff all the time. Sure, the Blood Angels have Assault Terminators too. The question is which Chapter spends more time as Assault Terminators and which Chapter spends more time as Tactical Terminators. We have no definitive answer for that question, but considering that the Black Templars deal with boarding actions all the time, I'd give the marginal advantage to Templar Assault Terminators, while I'd in the same way assume that Blood Angels Tactical Terminators would have a slight edge due to experience. Since we're arguing Close Combat, having a slight experience advantage in CC is going to matter, whereas being better at shooting isn't.
Sigismund was apparently a total badass, on par with any Astartes of that era, true. What does a man who has been dead for thousands of years have to do with the current Black Templars though?
In the fluff, the Death Company are pretty balls out awesome in combat, tearing through huge numbers of enemies in close combat in ways only Khornate Berzerkers might be able to match.
If Sigismund was able to best the greatest Khorne Berzerker, and later went on to found a Chapter whose entire modus operandi is built around emulating their founder's style of warfare, is it really that big of a stretch to assume that the Templars could match Khornate Berzerkers in Close Combat, and thus by your comparison Death Company? All Templars probably couldn't do this, obviously, but assuming that the best of them could isn't that much of a stretch when they do everything they can to get into CC as fast as possible.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm not trying to paint them as Death Company, I'm trying to paint them as "Death Company light". Assault Terminators bash the living daylights out of stuff all the time. Sure, the Blood Angels have Assault Terminators too. The question is which Chapter spends more time as Assault Terminators and which Chapter spends more time as Tactical Terminators. We have no definitive answer for that question, but considering that the Black Templars deal with boarding actions all the time, I'd give the marginal advantage to Templar Assault Terminators, while I'd in the same way assume that Blood Angels Tactical Terminators would have a slight edge due to experience. Since we're arguing Close Combat, having a slight experience advantage in CC is going to matter, whereas being better at shooting isn't.
Considering that the current BA have sternguard available to them this is probably considered retconned material, but the old Index Astartes claimed that the Blood Angels 1st company is comprised entirely of vanguard veterans.
I think threads like Minotaurs vs FT vs Carcharodons vs BT vs SW vs BA should really be used on tabletop....I'mean every chapter has enough raaaarrgh feats to win....and special skills ofc....
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
We do not need to have our deeds recorded. Faith and service are their own reward. Beware the sin of pride, brother
We record their deeds to remember them by. We honor our fallen brothers. Pride has naught to do with the deeds of the Death Company, as they care not for such mundane emotions. The Black Rage overtakes them and they fight. They fight till they die. There is no need for foolish pride. Only honor for the dead.
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
Er, consider the respective authors.
ROFL ... this.
For real. The man who brought us the BA also gave us stories about marines who wandered naked into a wilderness haunted by nightmares after days of not eating to do battle with one of the 666 named Greater Daemons (so not just the "normal" kind of greater daemon) and kick its ass so that it could graduate into being a Paladin... who, for arguments sake would (after getting dressed, donning some Termi armor, and getting a force-halberd) have no chance in hell of killing even a normal Greater Daemon on a 1v1 on the table-top... so.... yeah, there's that
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
Er, consider the respective authors.
ROFL ... this.
For real. The man who brought us the BA also gave us stories about marines who wandered naked into a wilderness haunted by nightmares after days of not eating to do battle with one of the 666 named Greater Daemons (so not just the "normal" kind of greater daemon) and kick its ass so that it could graduate into being a Paladin... who, for arguments sake would (after getting dressed, donning some Termi armor, and getting a force-halberd) have no chance in hell of killing even a normal Greater Daemon on a 1v1 on the table-top... so.... yeah, there's that
They're armed with the Daemon's True Name though, so it's like showing up to a knife fight naked with the psychic skill of the Emperor. You look completely defenseless and then the enemy is a piece of sobbing meat on the floor.
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
Er, consider the respective authors.
ROFL ... this.
For real. The man who brought us the BA also gave us stories about marines who wandered naked into a wilderness haunted by nightmares after days of not eating to do battle with one of the 666 named Greater Daemons (so not just the "normal" kind of greater daemon) and kick its ass so that it could graduate into being a Paladin... who, for arguments sake would (after getting dressed, donning some Termi armor, and getting a force-halberd) have no chance in hell of killing even a normal Greater Daemon on a 1v1 on the table-top... so.... yeah, there's that
OMG, I laughed so hard, then I went really sad realizing this is perhaps canon
Manchu wrote: The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
Er, consider the respective authors.
A Wardism? Perhaps, but you can't really turn your nose up on their portrayals in the fluff just because the writing is bad.
As badly as he is written, by his showings, Draigo for example wouldn't just beat any chapter master in the Imperium, he'd easily destroy them.
Also, that also happens in Fear to Tread, apparently.
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DarthMarko wrote: OMG, I laughed so hard, then I went really sad realizing this is perhaps canon
Perhaps canon? He's not fething around, that is actually how Grey Knights become Paladins. Though they still had Nemesis Force Weapons to be fair, and had the true name of the Greater Daemon they fought.
Void__Dragon wrote: A Wardism? Perhaps, but you can't really turn your nose up on their portrayals in the fluff just because the writing is bad.
I absolutely can.
I'm not going to get on a high horse and explain to you the difference between good and bad writing since I assume you know at least the basics of stringing a sentance together, but the difference between the writing done by Matt Ward and the bulk of the other Codex/BL Authors is not about syntax or grammer. It's about creating a piece of writting that adds to the game without walkin all over previously established material or creating contradictions. (although in Ward's case "walking" all over is more like "stampeeding").
Ward also wrote that the aformentioned hero bested Mortarion (a fething PRIMARCH) in combat, beat the piss out of him so badly that he was able to carve the name of his forbearer on Mortaroin's heart. I don't even want to know how badly you've gotta beat a Primarch's ass before he just sits there and can't keep you from carving some guy's name on a vital organ...
Oh, and he's traveled through each of the four realms of chaos and done a sort of 80's mantage through their "impossible" trials while playing the Top Gun anthem with a guitar while lightening shoots out of his nostrils.
But before this becomes a "why Matt Ward should be fired" thread, i'll tie this back into my point: Bad writing not only damages the game, but it ruins your argument. Authors spend time writing books because they paint a picture for us. That writing has to be of a certain caliber to paint a quality picture. Think about the argument you're having. We're discussing a hypothetical showdown between legions of super-human space cadets with rocket guns and psycho-sorcerous powers. There has to be a pretty enormous work up to that kind of question. This very debate is a result of decades of work on part of many many authors who have all contributed to creating a genuine work of art.
Now, imagine of all those books in the past few decades weren't so well written. What if the Horrus Heresy books just contained the sentance "Horus was a dumbass and challenged the Emprah, got his ass beat and died. Da End". Doesn't leave much room for thought does it? Why? becuase it's not well written. How about a book that simply states: "Blood Angels would bend over and take it from the Black Templars". Also not a lot of writing prowess on display...
Bad writing is quite damaging, more so than to just the point you failed to make
You might have a point if the writing of the Death Company was as vague and minimalistic as you are implying in your Horus Heresy analogy. But it isn't, not to that extent, so your point sort of loses relevance in this context. Not that I really disagree with what you are saying. Were the writing indeed so vague and hard to discern, I would not bother making a claim from that. But it isn't. In the case of Draigo, we know he is physically strong enough to throw a Daemon Primarch to the ground and hold him there, despite how stupid that is. We know his psyflame is so powerful it can burn the Garden of the Nurgle to the ground, despite how stupid that is. We know that his telekinesis is so potent it can crush the Inevitable Fortress and kill a Lord of Change in the process, despite how stupid that is. We know he has the martial prowess to beat a Bloodthirster in the Warp without a weapon, despite how stupid that is.
These are measurable showings, and despite the fact that it required monumentally stupid writing to make it possible, in a discussion concerning Draigo's prowess against another Marine, they enable him the win almost invariably. You don't have to like it, and I don't. But if the subject of a thread has bad fluff, that does not suddenly mean all fluff regarding them is to be thrown out, otherwise no conclusion can be made.
Not that I was ever really citing Ward, nor am I unaware of how bad his writing is, indeed, I am probably more aware of it than you are, I was thinking more along the lines of that fluff excerpt of the Death Company fighter tearing through many many times his number before falling. One guy. Lynata has the quote handy if you want it.
Oh, but if you have contradictory showings of the prowess of the Death Company, by all means, tell me. I won't ask you to quote anything because I didn't bother to do so myself, but please at least tell me where your perspective is coming from. Because if in fact you do not know of differing portrayals of the Death Company, then you are ranting at me for the sole purpose of ranting at me.
Writers can really crumble your universe...I was a big fan of the death guard, but after that heresy and all the ranting from W-whiners and GK fanboys really chilled me out from them...sadly... Now I see the same thing happening with the SW....It's just too much pressure...
I'll go play Salamaders or Raven Guard...
I think we all know what I will say with no bias at all. How can a bunch of crazy nut jobs who cant control their anger problems best a zealous fanatic fueled by hatred?
To be fair, why is the Death Company even a part of the debate? They're hardly the average Blood Angel Marine, and even if they're crazy they'd still get their asses handed to them by Assault Terminators, just as (Power Armour) Sword Brethren would get THEIR asses handed to them by the Blood Angel Assault Terminators.
Regardless of this, there's something the Templars have that could easily match the Death Company: The Emperor's Champions, in the plural.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: To be fair, why is the Death Company even a part of the debate?
Because the OP 's question is which chapter has the superior CQC fighters. DC are the best CQC fighters the Blood Angels have, therefore they're the standard the Black Templars would need to match or beat.
By feats, it is a standard that the Black Templars have not shown the ability to match or defeat.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: To be fair, why is the Death Company even a part of the debate?
Because the OP 's question is which chapter has the superior CQC fighters. DC are the best CQC fighters the Blood Angels have, therefore they're the standard the Black Templars would need to match or beat.
By feats, it is a standard that the Black Templars have not shown the ability to match or defeat.
Again, Emperor's Champions. And, again, the Terminators of both Chapters are better CQC combatants than the Death Company.
What about Emperor's Champions? Any Black Templar can become an Emperor's Champion; all they need to do is state that they've received a vision from the Emperor, and they get the EC gear. Their individual skill level has nothing to do with them becoming Emperor's Champions.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Terminators? Nothing in the fluff state that Terminators are of equal skill to Death Company marines.
BlaxicanX wrote: What about Emperor's Champions? Any Black Templar can become an Emperor's Champion; all they need to do is state that they've received a vision from the Emperor, and they get the EC gear. Their individual skill level has nothing to do with them becoming Emperor's Champions.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Terminators? Nothing in the fluff state that Terminators are of equal skill to Death Company marines.
Except the entire part where Terminators are the best Veterans of each Chapter given the best pieces of gear. They're routinely shown to be the hardest, most badass Marines in their Chapter and Terminator Armour is invariably described as the pinnacle of human armour. They're the best of the best in the best gear.
Also, anyone can become Death Company as well, but I don't see you using that as an argument against DC. And while it's theoretically possible that someone would lie to become Emperor's Champion, the entire point is that they DO have visions of the Emperor and are guided in combat by His will. If the Death Company are Blood Angels believing themselves to be Sanguinius alone against the hordes of Chaos, the Emperor's Champions are the Black Templars going in the footsteps of Sigismund, guided by the Emperor's will. Page 15 of the BT Codex states that the Emperor's Champion is guided by the Emperor, presenting it as a fact. It's not just "they believe themselves to be", they ARE. It's the exact same thing as Death Company, only on fewer warriors and turned up to 11.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Terminators? Nothing in the fluff state that Terminators are of equal skill to Death Company marines.
Except the entire part where Terminators are the best Veterans of each Chapter given the best pieces of gear.
Prove that the 1st company marines in all chapters possess the most physical skill in the chapter. As far as gear, that's like saying a Land Raider is the best CQC fighter because it can just run over any man it fights.
Also, anyone can become Death Company as well, but I don't see you using that as an argument against DC.
The reason for that is because we've seen, proven by the fluff, that when Blood Angels succumb to the Red Thirst, they're capable of literally decimating millions of daemons with their bare hands, to the point where Greater Daemons start crying in terror. I don't think you appreciate how telling it is that a creature that by nature does not possess fear, suddenly possesses fear out of how horribly his force's asses are getting kicked.
The Black Templar's have never, ever, displayed such martial prowess.
Void__Dragon wrote: The Death Company haven't succumbed to the Red Thirst, lol.
This, pretty much. They also had their Primarch present (and almost killed).
EDIT: You may also want to remember that said incident created the Black Rage which could very well spell the doom of the Blood Angels and their gene-brethren.
As for proving that Terminators are the best, consider this quote from Codex: Space Marines (page 64): Once trained in the use of Terminator Armour, a Space Marine is counted first amongst his brothers and is expected to conduct the most difficult of missions and to perform beyond even the lofty standards of the Adeptus Astartes. You don't expect troops that aren't your best to do the hardest work, do you?
And, again, if the Death Company are given a small portion of Sanguinius's skill and power, there's the Emperor's Champions. Unless you're trying to convince me that the Emperor is weaker than Sanguinius, I'm not seeing the Death Company counter that. One on one, an Emperor's Champion would massacre a Death Company Marine.
The reason for that is because we've seen, proven by the fluff, that when Blood Angels succumb to the Red Thirst, they're capable of literally decimating millions of daemons with their bare hands, to the point where Greater Daemons start crying in terror. I don't think you appreciate how telling it is that a creature that by nature does not possess fear, suddenly possesses fear out of how horribly his force's asses are getting kicked.
The Black Templar's have never, ever, displayed such martial prowess.
No offense, but this is so much exaggerated comment that it hurts my eyes....Normaly I agree with your comments 100%, but this like childish and makes Draigo to blush...
Void__Dragon wrote: The Death Company haven't succumbed to the Red Thirst, lol.
And, again, if the Death Company are given a small portion of Sanguinius's skill and power, there's the Emperor's Champions. Unless you're trying to convince me that the Emperor is weaker than Sanguinius, I'm not seeing the Death Company counter that. One on one, an Emperor's Champion would massacre a Death Company Marine.
So you are saying that the Empy is directly fueling portion ofhis power to Emp champions ?
Void__Dragon wrote: The Death Company haven't succumbed to the Red Thirst, lol.
And, again, if the Death Company are given a small portion of Sanguinius's skill and power, there's the Emperor's Champions. Unless you're trying to convince me that the Emperor is weaker than Sanguinius, I'm not seeing the Death Company counter that. One on one, an Emperor's Champion would massacre a Death Company Marine.
So you are saying that the Empy is directly fueling portion ofhis power to Emp champions ?
I'm saying that if believing that you're Sanguinius makes Death Company that much better than an average Marine, being guided in combat by the God-Emperor of Mankind would be the next step on the OTT Power Ladder.
As an interesting side-note that doesn't have anything to do with the Death Company debate or possibly with the topic at hand at all, High Marshal Ludoldus was High Marshal for over 2000 years, being High Marshal in both the Jerulas Crusade of 645.M39 and the Vinculus Crusade of 833.M41.
I know, but I always considered BT sticking to IT and pure (without psychic crap), with ultimate determination to crush enemy, and ofc guided by their devotion to Emperor, none of that paranormal mojo.....
And this is why I think they would win this.....
Ok so I actually read every post from all 2 1/2 pages..
First off people that vote BA because of DC. While I give credit where it's due sword breathern are all amazing fighters who have earned the right to wear term armor. That doesn't exactly come lightly. Plus if you go by the BT codex some are even wearing duel lighting claws. So duel TH vs duel LC it's gonna be messy. Also if you read the BT codex page 24 "however such is there faith in the Emperor and their own invulnerablity that they shrug off the most severe wounds" and that's for every bt marine.. So they are gonna be a pain in the arse to kill.
Also for the emperors champ one thing people have yet to say is that there isn't just one.. Every crusade has one.. So a squad of up armored badass marines that have the emperors blessing. That's just a scary group to come up against.
In general the BT have been on a crusade for how long again? Looking for fights against the biggest meanist xenos they can find. So to me each individual marine will have more combat experience. Also they pride themselves on the idea of close combat so much they chain their weapons to themselves.. Never resting until their foe is defeated.. Also their chaplains are freaking nuts! Have you seen how hard it is to kill grimaldus in fluff or on the table? He doesn't like to die. BT are just going to be harder faster and better in close combat.
Finally for the people who say there is no record of the bt slaughtering masses. " I saw a scene of a massacre where the dead lay on the ground In numbers like fallen leaves in a forest." Inquisitor barzanos investigation into the baron nebula crusade.... Or take into account of the rack that every other chapter stiffens up at the name of the bt knowing them for there shear ferocity and unforgiving.
BA can be awesome but in a 1 on 1 I still put my money on the bt.
Please disregard any typos doing this from a iphone
Ok, all bias aside:
BA have the CC upper hand in a 1:1 fight with:
Death Company against anything short of IC/termies (not double hammer, hammer/LC)
Sanguanary Guard against anything short of an IC or termies
Named Characters against almost anything (not too good on the BT lore)
Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)
The BT have it with:
Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)
Named Characters V. anything but named characters
Sword Bretheren V. anything but DC , termie and IC
They are on par with:
Basic Marines V. Basic Marines
Termie V. Termie
generic HQ's V. generic HQ
So all in all, in a 1:1 battle they are fairly evenly matched. Fluffwise yes, the BT are on an eternal crusade to rip things apart but BA are in the process of staving off a Tyranid invasion and we all know that (fluffwise) that means: good at CC or dead. So lets assume that their basic troops are equal in all aspects, vets are equal etc. etc. In the end it will boil down to numbers; BT have them and BA don't. Fluffwise they are at least equal Mono a Mono, with the BA NC's and DC being better then BT NC and Sword Brethren. So about 80% of the time against an opponent of the same type (termie to termie, IC to IC, NC to NC) they will be equal. That 20% of the time I will say that it is the DC and the NC prevailing against Sword Brethren and NC respectively. Now these few (lets say there is 100 DC marines, and about 60-70 % of the time they prevail meaning that about 60 or 70 marines and 5 NC's) will have to prevail against the extra few thousand marines the BT can pull out of their sleeve. (lets assume the other battles that were 50/50 ended in one killing the other and succumbing to their wounds and dying) So in a war of attrition the BT would rule overall. In a 1:1 battle they would be even, with BA NC and DC pulling ahead in their battles.
Just my honest opinion on the matter
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Ok, all bias aside:
BA have the CC upper hand in a 1:1 fight with:
Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)
I'd argue that the Templars Chaplains are more dangerous. They're the most zealous of any Chapter, the most zealous Black Templars are going to be insane beyond belief. Sure, Lemartes sort of controls the Black Rage. Grimaldus survived having a Cathedral dropped in his head. Otherwise I pretty much agree with your conclusion.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Ok, all bias aside: BA have the CC upper hand in a 1:1 fight with: Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)
I'd argue that the Templars Chaplains are more dangerous. They're the most zealous of any Chapter, the most zealous Black Templars are going to be insane beyond belief. Sure, Lemartes sort of controls the Black Rage. Grimaldus survived having a Cathedral dropped in his head. Otherwise I pretty much agree with your conclusion.
Their chappies are IC's no? I generally would assume the two (BA v. BT) would be equal, but the BT also have the Reclusiarch (mega-chappy) which gives them the upper hand. Although against the BA libbies they can be ID'd by the Force Weapons and they strike at the same initiative. Both weapons are AP3, the chappy gets more attacks at s6 so maybe he kills the libby, but then the libby could also live and get a wound on the chappy the ID him so that seems about even to me. Although the Chappy has that 4++ and the libby can get at best a 5++ force dome (not the DA but I assume all libbys will soon have a PFG) so all in all it leans to the Reclusiarch winning about 70-75% of the time as opposed to 50.
The Blood Angels also have Reclusiarchs. BA one is better out of the gate but the BT starts off 35 pts cheaper and is far more upgradable, so in the end I think the BT one would have the edge.
Orblivion wrote: The Blood Angels also have Reclusiarchs. BA one is better out of the gate but the BT starts off 35 pts cheaper and is far more upgradable, so in the end I think the BT one would have the edge.
Glazed over that somehow. Prob Claude I never take them anyways They would be even matches by any means; the age of the BT dex explains the point difference and the matchup is fluff wise not tabletop. Tabletop would bring in the whole point system and strip all the benefits of numbers and make an infinite amount of odd combos (30-man DC with hammer/ LC, which I doubt they would have the armory capacity for)
Fluff wise they undergo similar training and are both masters of combat and such. It stands to reason they would be even matches. The loose end here is what do they have to counter Libby? I would assume they have a great number of 'extra' chaplains to bear but the question still remains what is the BT equvilent
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm saying that if believing that you're Sanguinius makes Death Company that much better than an average Marine,
Well no one really said that.
And them being "guided by the Emperor" doesn't really have that much relevance, next to feats.
That said, I think an Emperor's Champion probably is better man for man than most Death Company marines.
But there's only one of them, and only occasionally, per battle, lol.
There's one Emperor's Champion for each Fighting Company of the Black Templars. Multiple Fighting Companies would thus mean multiple Emperor's Champions. The part about Death Company believing themselves Sanguinius is in the fluff, which is why I drew the comparison.
Black Templar. When they get a new codex, I'm sure Helbrect, or whoever replaces Helbrect will get a much needed boost in power to put him on par with other Chapter Masters, as well as all the other neat toys to put them in line with the other chapters.
I'd disagree with this. Remember, the focus of the topic is "close combat effectiveness". Close combat is the Templar's specialisation. A basic Angel = tactical marine and a basic Templar = initiate/crusader marine. The former enjoys the flexibility of a Codex SM warrior, the latter has focused and specialised on one area of battle at the cost of others: close combat. Therefore I think it's safe to say that squad for squad, and marine for marine, Templars have Angels soundly beat at close combat effectiveness. Same applies for first company vets, their just best-of-the-best category so you just scale up accordingly.
I'd disagree with this. Remember, the focus of the topic is "close combat effectiveness". Close combat is the Templar's specialisation. A basic Angel = tactical marine and a basic Templar = initiate/crusader marine. The former enjoys the flexibility of a Codex SM warrior, the latter has focused and specialised on one area of battle at the cost of others: close combat. Therefore I think it's safe to say that squad for squad, and marine for marine, Templars have Angels soundly beat at close combat effectiveness. Same applies for first company vets, their just best-of-the-best category so you just scale up accordingly.
To further build on this, one could argue that Templars win in CC because it's all they do. The Blood Angels follow the Codex Astartes and are thus much more flexible than the Black Templars, but when it comes to CC it's the one thing Templars do all the time. As you say, they don't spend time as (non-melee) Scouts or Devestators, they fight in CC. That's what they do.
Void__Dragon wrote: A Wardism? Perhaps, but you can't really turn your nose up on their portrayals in the fluff just because the writing is bad.
I'm not saying what Mat Ward did with the BA was bad. That's a different thread, that I honestly have no interest in participating in. What I'm saying is, Ward only has one setting: OTT. Your argument about the Death Company and Sword Brethren boils down to the BT not have a dex penned by him.
Void__Dragon wrote: A Wardism? Perhaps, but you can't really turn your nose up on their portrayals in the fluff just because the writing is bad.
I'm not saying what Mat Ward did with the BA was bad. That's a different thread, that I honestly have no interest in participating in. What I'm saying is, Ward only has one setting: OTT. Your argument about the Death Company and Sword Brethren boils down to the BT not have a dex penned by him.
Bingo. Saying "BT aren't as amazing as BA because there has yet to be OTT feats written about them" is a balls argument. Just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The BT could have accomplished all manner of "feats" and you'd know nothing about it.
Besides, the writing being bad (on that scale, to boot), is an excellent reason to turn your nose up at it.
The BT also could be a cabal of child-molesting Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, plotting behind the scenes to take every firstborn child of Terra and sacrifice them, creating a new Eye of Terra encompassing the Sol System and beyond.
Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!
Void__Dragon wrote: Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!
Okay, okay. The issue is not that some future BA dex could have the BA being terrible at CC or that some future dex could have the BT being explicitly better than the BA at it. The issue is that the current book for the BA was written by someone who has in every single work "turned it up to 11" in contrast to the preceding edition. The BT book is from a time when 40k was only turned up to 9 or 10.
Void__Dragon wrote: Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!
Okay, okay. The issue is not that some future BA dex could have the BA being terrible at CC or that some future dex could have the BT being explicitly better than the BA at it. The issue is that the current book for the BA was written by someone who has in every single work "turned it up to 11" in contrast to the preceding edition. The BT book is from a time when 40k was only turned up to 9 or 10.
Fair enough, but the OTT example I always use in reference to Death Company was not written by Matt Ward. BA Omnibus has one of them go 1 on 1 with a chaos dreadnought, with just a chainsword, and win. He died very shortly afterwards from the wounds he suffered, but thats still pretty crazy. I guess my point is that it isn't only Matt Ward that portrays the Death Company as an incredibly potent fighting force. That being said, I still think BT win this one just as I said on the first page.
Oddly enough, A similar thing happens in Cadian Blood. A Kasrkin Sergeant and a Guard Captain kill a Chaos dread with nothing but a Power sword, a chain sword and a Hellpistol. And they didn't die. Black Library is renowned for going OTT. It is entirely down to perspective on whether or not it is actually canon.
Void__Dragon wrote: The BT also could be a cabal of child-molesting Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, plotting behind the scenes to take every firstborn child of Terra and sacrifice them, creating a new Eye of Terra encompassing the Sol System and beyond.
Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!
Exactly. You example is overblown and purposefully tongue-in-cheek, but I'm glad to see you understand in principle.
Orblivion wrote: BA Omnibus has one of them go 1 on 1 with a chaos dreadnought, with just a chainsword, and win. He died very shortly afterwards from the wounds he suffered, but thats still pretty crazy.
The Crusader wrote: Oddly enough, A similar thing happens in Cadian Blood. A Kasrkin Sergeant and a Guard Captain kill a Chaos dread with nothing but a Power sword, a chain sword and a Hellpistol. And they didn't die. Black Library is renowned for going OTT. It is entirely down to perspective on whether or not it is actually canon.
Again, exactly. A piece of fluff could just as easily pop up featuring a Sword Brethren achieving a comparable OTT feat. Taking the viewpoint that because one hasn't popped up therefore means that "it's never happened ever!" is, as I said, a balls argument.
Anfauglir wrote: Again, exactly. A piece of fluff could just as easily pop up featuring a Sword Brethren achieving a comparable OTT feat.
A piece of fluff could also pop up featuring a Sword Brethren being explicitly stated to have the martial prowess of a Gretchin.
I mean, speculating on what they could get is all well and good... But it doesn't supplant actual established fluff.
Not that I ever had Wardian exploits in mind when talking about Death Company mind you.
I am just saying that based on their feats of prowess in the fluff, Death Company Marines are decently superior to the bulk of Black Templars pound for pound.
I should note though, that one aspect that has not been touched upon is naval combat. In a naval battle, there can be no doubt that the Black Templars are almost guaranteed victory. They have actually crushed a Necron fleet in combat. And not just any Necron fleet, but the fleet of Imhotek the Stormlord, the most powerful of all Necron Overlords, and they even destroyed his immense flagship. To my recollection, no other army has as impressive a naval showing as this.
That said, the Necron codex had a downside. It sort of shows that Helbrecht probably isn't taking Dante in combat. Helbrecht was outright embarrassed by Imhotek in martial combat. Dante was able to cleave Skarbrand in two.
That said, the Necron codex had a downside. It sort of shows that Helbrecht probably isn't taking Dante in combat. Helbrecht was outright embarrassed by Imhotek in martial combat. Dante was able to cleave Skarbrand in two.
Really, please stop using this unofficial rumor as a fact...and don't tell me it was on GW site, cause this is a plain fanfiction (from a well known Matty no2)...and a dumbest gak I ever heard... and Draigo is a baby...
If you can post anything that shows that mere SM can kill (one on one) the dude who dented Khornes armor, I think I'll leave wahammer 4life...
DarthMarko wrote: Really, please stop using this unofficial rumor as a fact...and don't tell me it was on GW site, cause this is a plain fanfiction (from a well known Matty no2)...and a dumbest gak I ever heard... and Draigo is a baby...
If you can post anything that shows that mere SM can kill (one on one) the dude who dented Khornes armor, I think I'll leave wahammer 4life...
.
It was on GW's site.
Skarbrand is no longer as powerful as he once was. What he once did is irrelevant toward the power he wields now.
DarthMarko wrote: Really, please stop using this unofficial rumor as a fact...and don't tell me it was on GW site, cause this is a plain fanfiction (from a well known Matty no2)...and a dumbest gak I ever heard... and Draigo is a baby...
If you can post anything that shows that mere SM can kill (one on one) the dude who dented Khornes armor, I think I'll leave wahammer 4life...
.
It was on GW's site.
Skarbrand is no longer as powerful as he once was. What he once did is irrelevant toward the power he wields now.
No matter, this worse then Draigo and unofficial..Also IIRC in BA dex this is stated as a rumor, which Dante FREAKING denied (insert fanboy1 dumb face : *that's what he would exactly do, because he is a true Mary Sue*)...
In the future stop posting retconned material....It is beneath you....
I don't see how you could even conceive of Dante beating Skarbrand as worse than Draigo.
Greater Daemons have been beaten in single combat. This is not a new concept.
Though you may be right on it being retconned, got a page number for where Dante denied it? I don't recall, I'm gonna check the codex myself in a minute.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "So long now has Dante lived that his exploits have passed
into myth. It is now impossible to say how many Ork heads
Dante cleaved at the Liberation of Canau, for the tally grows
greater each time the story is recounted. Did Dante truly
defeat the Bloodthirster Skarbrand before the Gates of
Pandemonium? Was it indeed a single mighty blow that
clove the Daemon in twain? Only Dante himself can say with
certainty. Yet he speaks not on such events, no matter how
much the exaggerated nature of such tales must rankle with
his warrior pride. The Imperium needs heroes - needs hope -
in these dark times, and the Commander of the Blood
Angels keeps his peace so that Mankind does not lose heart."
He does not actually deny it, but the narrative does paint it as a legend that's truth is hard to discern.
That's so surreal, Ward actually made it less OTT.
Void__Dragon wrote: I don't see how you could even conceive of Dante beating Skarbrand as worse than Draigo.
Greater Daemons have been beaten in single combat. This is not a new concept.
Though you may be right on it being retconned, got a page number for where Dante denied it? I don't recall, I'm gonna check the codex myself in a minute.
Really do that...I've had a really painfull discussions on warseer on this matter and I don't wanna go back to this....
The BT favour ranged combat don`t they as they believe it is more efficient to kill at range? The Blood Angels do have some great CC units like the the DC so I vote for them.
Yet he speaks not on such events, no matter how
much the exaggerated nature of such tales must rankle with
his warrior pride. The Imperium needs heroes - needs hope -
in these dark times, and the Commander of the Blood
Angels keeps his peace so that Mankind does not lose heart."
Imperial propaganda...this is clear as a day...It is even stated as rumor....
IF you buy this, then Bjorn pummeled Magnus, that GK finished off Angron, Draigo.....was a tatoo master.......
Ofc if you completely disregard what damage deamons did until they met IoM heroes....
P.S. Magnus fully killed the great company and chaptermaster, Angron killed 95 GK, and Morty was on drugs and chopped down a few.....
Now until it is official (without rumor sign in the story) and the vamp gets a story which tells of events - I won't buy that 13 year old crap...
Btw I'm really getting tired of GW - Mephistos and Draigos need to go into fantasy....
TechmarineNic wrote: The BT favour ranged combat don`t they as they believe it is more efficient to kill at range? The Blood Angels do have some great CC units like the the DC so I vote for them.
Void_Dragon, The Fluff involving the martial prowess of Death Company is discounted because of Cadian Blood. Sure, a Death Company Killed a Dread in CQB. So did 2 Cadians. With pretty much the same weapon. It has been said before, but the only reason that BA are so hyped up is because The BT Codex was written in a more relaxed period of 40k.
Void__Dragon wrote: A piece of fluff could also pop up featuring a Sword Brethren being explicitly stated to have the martial prowess of a Gretchin.
Yes. The difference between mine and your positions on what might pop up, though, is drastically different. One is a perfectly reasonable assumption. The other is ridiculous. Your argument is becoming beyond silly now. And I thought you were getting it...
I mean, speculating on what they could get is all well and good... But it doesn't supplant actual established fluff.
Quite right. Unfortunately, your position isn't strengthened by this truth due to the simple fact that there is no established fluff that outright states: "Death Company did such and such - Sword Brethren cannot and will not ever match it". To think otherwise is kidding yourself.
I am just saying that based on their feats of prowess in the fluff, Death Company Marines are decently superior to the bulk of Black Templars pound for pound.
That isn't just what you were saying though. The above is a more reasonable assumption. Additional assumptions about the Sword Brethren based not on what you've read but what you haven't read is where the problem lies.
You're right, I've never read Sword Brethren performing feats of martial prowess on par with the Death Company.
Which is why I don't assume they can perform feats of martial prowess on par with the Death Company.
When comparing two elements of an army, one that has some established fluff, the other that has less, to reach a conclusion you have to commit a fallacy (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence etc.). Otherwise, you have two people arguing in circles "Oh well Sword Brethren COULD be that OTT!".
Unless you intend to draw this thread out until the next Black Templar codex (Which may never happen, from what I'm hearing), my stance is the far more reasonable one.
"I have read that BA have ..." is a fine argument for what BA have done.
"I have not read that BT have ..." is not a meaningful argument for what BT have not done or cannot do.
In other words, this question cannot be reasonably resolved by comparing published instances of martial feats. We know that
(1) all SM chapters have accomplished any number of glorious deeds (2) few if any of these have been published in GW/affiliate/licensee works for a given chapter (3) certain codices, especially newer ones, relate more information of a more OTT character than others
Therefore it is most reasonable to assume that BA and BT are roughly equal as to the breadth of their battle honors. One must in this case turn to something that is exhaustively knowable as a matter of published sources, such as chapter organization or custom.
As of their current codex, BA are shown to have a predilection for Assault Marine formations. This is not the same thing as having a CC focus. As of their current codex, BT are shown to have a predilection for CC specifically. Assuming that the BT excel at their favored style, they are likely better at it than BT -- who do not favor it.
Manchu, I'm not quite sure I understand the last part of your arguement... Is it a typo or am I going crazy.
"As of their current codex, BA are shown to have a predilection for Assault Marine formations. This is not the same thing as having a CC focus. As of their current codex, BT are shown to have a predilection for CC specifically. Assuming that the BT excel at their favored style, they are likely better at it than BT -- who do not favor it."
And I disagree. For all the reasons that were first pointed out to you by Manchu, and then by me in subsequent posts. Assuming that the most elite marines in two chapters are of comparable skill, rather than assuming that one far surpasses the other based soley on the fact that OTT fluff has been directed at one but not the other is by far the more reasonable stance.
Void__Dragon wrote: You missed the part where I was only comparing Death Company to Black Templar Marines.
Except that isn't the case at all:
Void__Dragon wrote: The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
And I disagree. For all the reasons that were first pointed out to you by Manchu, and then by me in subsequent posts. Assuming that the most elite marines in two chapters are of comparable skill, rather than assuming that one far surpasses the other based soley on the fact that OTT fluff has been directed at one but not the other is by far the more reasonable stance.
Void__Dragon wrote: You missed the part where I was only comparing Death Company to Black Templar Marines.
Except that isn't the case at all:
Void__Dragon wrote: The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
Look I completely buy that the average BT would kick the ass of the average BA 1v1 in CC. But the fact remains that The Death Company is unique asset in the BA's favor. Just because it's logical that the BT would have a comparable force does not mean that they do have a comparable force. Your arguement is logical. Void's is empirical. If this were real life you could go out to prove your theory. Perhaps like many great scientists in the future your theory will be readily vindicated. But the fact remains that for now empirical trumps logic. Void has the most reasonable arguement for the now.
Let's use a comparison. Say there are two towns, A and B, and you know they are quite near to one another and are generally alike. What you know about them specifically comes from two articles. They first is about a rainy day in town A. The second is about a hurricane in Town B. Now, a reasonable person knows that he cannot conclude from these articles whether or not a hurricane has ever hit Town A. Indeed, it would be difficult to decide which town gets more precipitation.
Let's use a comparison. Say there are two towns, A and B, and you know they are quite near to one another and are generally alike. What you know about them specifically comes from two articles. They first is about a rainy day in town A. The second is about a hurricane in Town B. Now, a reasonable person knows that he cannot conclude from these articles whether or not a hurricane has ever hit Town A. Indeed, it would be difficult to decide which town gets more precipitation.
Your premise is solid for the situation you presented. But we aren't being asked can we conclusively say BT never did OTT. We are being asked to compare BT to BA. You cannot claim advantages you have no evidence for. Let's take your situation and make it represenative at hand. There is a story that Town A had a rainy day. There is a story town B had a hurricane. Based on the available evidence (this is the key component) town B had worse weather than town A. You could say its possible town A had the same weather by interviewing someone in the town but they could just as easily say that they really did have better weather. The best decision that can be made on the available evidence is in Void's court.
And I disagree. For all the reasons that were first pointed out to you by Manchu, and then by me in subsequent posts. Assuming that the most elite marines in two chapters are of comparable skill, rather than assuming that one far surpasses the other based soley on the fact that OTT fluff has been directed at one but not the other is by far the more reasonable stance.
Void__Dragon wrote: You missed the part where I was only comparing Death Company to Black Templar Marines.
Except that isn't the case at all:
Void__Dragon wrote: The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.
I was only comparing the Death Company to the Black Templars in that, I was comparing no other Blood Angel Marines to them, in a pound for pound basis.
Not that I was only comparing them to generic Black Templars.
Stop pretending that the Sword Brethrens are the equivalent of the Death Company. From my recollection, no other chapter has something of a similar nature to the Death Company.
The Sword Brethrens are explicitly the Black Templar equivalent of a Codex Chapter's First Company. Which the Blood Angels also have. Any assumption of the Sword Brethren being comparable to the Death Company without sufficient evidence to substantiate such a claim is fallacious and unreasonable. Coincidentally, the Blood Angels' First Company do not have feats of a similar potency to Death Company Marines. Hmm, wonder why...
Shlazaor wrote: Based on the available evidence (this is the key component) town B had worse weather than town A.
My example must have been unclear because this is the opposite of what I was hoping you'd learn. To put it more simply, you cannot meaningfully compare evidence with lack of evidence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote: Coincidentally, the Blood Angels' First Company do not have feats of a similar potency to Death Company Marines. Hmm, wonder why...
The Black Rage makes a BA stronger and angrier than a normal SM. It does not, however, make him more skilled. The DC's record gets touted for two reasons: out-of-setting, because they are supposed to be a major selling point for BA; in-setting, because they are supposed to be tragic heroes that represent the best any given BA can possibly expect for himself.
Shlazaor wrote: Based on the available evidence (this is the key component) town B had worse weather than town A.
My example must have been unclear because this is the opposite of what I was hoping you'd learn. To put it more simply, you cannot meaningfully compare evidence with lack of evidence.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote: Coincidentally, the Blood Angels' First Company do not have feats of a similar potency to Death Company Marines. Hmm, wonder why...
The Black Rage makes a BA stronger and angrier than a normal SM. It does not, however, make him more skilled. The DC's record gets touted for two reasons: out-of-setting, because they are supposed to be a major selling point for BA; in-setting, because they are supposed to be tragic heroes that represent the best any given BA can possibly expect for himself.
Wrong. Proof ALWAYS beats out conjecture. Proof always beat out logical conjecture. Proof always beats out reasonable conjecture. Of course you can compare evidence to a lack of evidence. You have the evidence, the other guy doesn't. That's about as simple as you can get lol.
We have empirical proof that BA's have Death Company. We have zero proof that BT have something equatable. We have conjecture that it would make sense that it would. Proof beats conjecture everytime. If I am forced to compare BT vs BA it would be incredibly unfair to provide BT with assets that they have no proof of. Simple as that.
Manchu wrote: Again, you cannot meaningfully compare "BA can do X" with "we don't know whether BT can do X."
Again. Good premise and conclusion. Bad application.
Imagine a court case before a judge. The judge is NOT being asked to conclusively say BT have no Death Company equal.
The judge IS being asked whether BT or BA win in CC. The issue of Death Company comes up. The BA lawyer offers proof that BA have death company. BT lawyer offers reasonable conjecture that you can't say they don't. The judge is not going to take into account the BT's conjecture. It is not proof of anything. Period.
Now the judge may still rule in favor of BT but not because he is thinking they have a Death Company equal. The judge was offered no proof of that so he can't use it in his rulings.
Shlazaor wrote: Void has the most reasonable arguement for the now.
And again, I disagree. It appears that I and both you and Void take "reasonable" to mean different things here.
Void__Dragon wrote: Stop pretending that the Sword Brethrens are the equivalent of the Death Company. From my recollection, no other chapter has something of a similar nature to the Death Company.
I am pretending no such thing. It was you who first drew the comparison in regards to fluff, not me. Sword Brethren aren't equivalent to DC. They are, as you said, equivalent to the Sanguinary Guard. They are first company vets with Terminator honours placed in the household/company of the Chapter officer cadre. Therefore they are superior to DC.
Coincidentally, the Blood Angels' First Company do not have feats of a similar potency to Death Company Marines. Hmm, wonder why...
Yet another assumption on your part for which you cannot possibly begin to prove.
Spoiler:
Manchu wrote: To put it more simply, you cannot meaningfully compare evidence with lack of evidence.
Manchu wrote: Again, you cannot meaningfully compare "BA can do X" with "we don't know whether BT can do X."
^ It really is as simple as that. I don't know how many different ways and how clearer you want to same, simple truth of the matter spelled out to you. You cannot reasonably assert something on a lack of evidence. To do so is unreasonable. It really is that simple. At any rate this circling is all but irrelevant in the context of the topic at hand, seeing as the only thing that distingishes a Death Company marine from a normal marine is the Black Rage, an affliction that, while has its uses against other opponents, is no real advantage for close combat effectiveness against close combat specialists. It was said earlier but I'll repeat it here:
Shlazaor wrote: The judge was offered no proof of that so he can't use it in his rulings.
All we know is that BA have a DC and the BT don't have a DC. That is not enough evidence to say one way or another which chapter is better at CC. It's also not enough to say whether the BT First Company or DC are better at CC.
I believe what I am seeing here is an impasse. Therefore, it may be a good idea to stop this trail of thought and go back to something a little more... concrete, shall we say.
Regardless of the martial prowess of DC, there is simply not enough of them to make any sort of meaningful dent in the BT.
Let us assume that our average marine from both chapters are equally matched, which I do not for one moment believe. And, for argument's sake, let's say that both the 1st Co. BA are also equally matched with the Sword Brethren, (Which I might add, there is a fair chance that we have more Sword Brethren than you do 1st Co.) that still leaves AT LEAST 4,000 Black Templars for the Death Company to chew through. Now I do not doubt the martial prowess of the Death Company. What I do doubt is their capability to kill at least 40 BT per 1 of them. That dog just ain't gonna hunt.
Death Company are good, but they're not 40:1 good. And that is the best case scenario. It's more likely that the DC would have to deal with odds more akin to 45-50 to 1. That's a long time for a train that won't come.
I think we have to keep in mind that this is just about CC. You take a given BT and you pit him against a given BA. Chances are, any given BT will be better at CC than any given BA because the BT, unlike the BA, focus on it as a matter of their Chapter culture.
Shlazaor wrote: The judge was offered no proof of that so he can't use it in his rulings.
All we know is that BA have a DC and the BT don't have a DC. That is not enough evidence to say one way or another which chapter is better at CC. It's also not enough to say whether the BT First Company or DC are better at CC.
I agree. Especially to the last one. Void would need to provide evidence of DCCC and compare it to FCCC. But it's worth pointing out that agreeing to those statements doesn't contradict our earlier discussion.
As of their current codex, BA are shown to have a predilection for Assault Marine formations. This is not the same thing as having a CC focus. As of their current codex, BT are shown to have a predilection for CC specifically. Assuming that the BT excel at their favored style, they are likely better at it than BA -- who do not favor it.
This. A thousand times this. Templars live and breathe close combat. It's their modus operandi, their schtick. Blood Angels are better at speedy hit-and-run attacks and force concentration due to their specialisation. They're better at being flexible and long-range fighting, due to following the Codex Astartes. They're NOT better at Close Combat, because they're not focused on it to the exclusion of all else. As evidenced by the Jerulas Crusade, what do the Black Templars do when faced with giant well-defended walls? Storm them. When that didn't work, they built the Land Raider Crusader to MAKE it work, rather than adopt a different fighting doctrine.
Manchu wrote: I think we have to keep in mind that this is just about CC. You take a given BT and you pit him against a given BA. Chances are, any given BT will be better at CC than any given BA because the BT, unlike the BA, focus on it as a matter of their Chapter culture.
This. Assuming an even number on both sides, initial engagement range would likely determine winner.
Jokes aside, the BT only have a single method of combat: running straight at the enemy to hit them with pointy sticks.
The BA have a slightly more advanced tactical doctrine and harder hitting shock troops, as well as elite formations and a Monstrous Creature class psyker.
The question is will BA successors pitch in to the fight?
Anfauglir wrote: I am pretending no such thing. It was you who first drew the comparison in regards to fluff, not me.
Actually it was Almighty Walrus who first brought up the Sword Brethren in comparison to the Death Company. I am afraid you are incorrect.
Sword Brethren aren't equivalent to DC. They are, as you said, equivalent to the Sanguinary Guard. They are first company vets with Terminator honours placed in the household/company of the Chapter officer cadre. Therefore they are superior to DC.
The Sword Brethren are the equivelant of a First Company. Not of the Sanguinary Guard, who are not first company veterans with terminator honors. So no, I am afraid you are also incorrect on this point as well.
Yet another assumption on your part for which you cannot possibly begin to prove.
Do you want me to PM you a download of the Blood Angels codex, so you can read the fluff and see that in the fluff the First Company doesn't have fluff prowess equivalent to the Death Company's?
Of course, there is this gem:
"Under the watchful eyes of the Chapter's Chaplains, the Lost Brothers of the Death Company know glory beyond even the ken of their Battle-Brothers, fighting against terrible odds in one final service to their Chapter. Many of the Blood Angels' greatest victories have followed a shattering assault by the Death Company. There are few enemies who can hope to stay the onset of such maddened warriors, let alone repel their assault. On Antax, Mel'yanneth, Hoilonan, Armageddon and other worlds too numerous to mention, the Death Company have more than lived up to their name, and legends of their ferocity have long since spread to worlds where the Blood Angels have never trod."
- Blood Angels codex, page 44
The implication of course being that their ferocity and martial prowess exceeds that of their Battle Brothers.
If the First Company were better, you'd think the text would show that.
^ It really is as simple as that. I don't know how many different ways and how clearer you want to same, simple truth of the matter spelled out to you. You cannot reasonably assert something on a lack of evidence. To do so is unreasonable. It really is that simple. At any rate this circling is all but irrelevant in the context of the topic at hand, seeing as the only thing that distingishes a Death Company marine from a normal marine is the Black Rage, an affliction that, while has its uses against other opponents, is no real advantage for close combat effectiveness against close combat specialists. It was said earlier but I'll repeat it here:
The Black Rage does nothing but increase the close combat prowess of the Blood Angels, via making them far more vicious and aggressive, and far harder to put down, as per the fluff, which I am moderately certain you have not read.
Only there is evidence. There is evidence of the Death Company, circled and outnumbered, tearing through an Ork Waaagh!, breaking the hordes and cutting into the heart at the Warboss himself, with only the Meganobz could stop. Many of the Death Company had long broken their weapons, and had resorted to fighting with their bare hands and fangs, against armed Orks. A Waaagh! no less. There is fluff that implies the Death Company are indeed a phenomenal close combat fighting force, inflicting grievous losses on the foe before their deaths on many times, turning the tide of many losing battles.
I'm sorry, but "Absence of evidence is evidence of absence" may work as an argument for why my point is not definitely right (And it isn't, a setting like 40k could indeed release fluff that put Sword Brethren on DC's level), but at the moment, the Death Company do in fact have greater hype and feats to their name in terms of martial prowess, so they would in fact get the nod in any reasonable discussion.
It is also very ironic that you continuously talk about me making assumptions based on a "lack of evidence", but you assume the Sword Brethren superior to the Death Company man for man, a claim which has far less basis than the reverse. It would be one thing to merely say that we can't really make a comparison without a direct one in the setting, but to actually complain about others making alleged assumptions while proceeding to make a far greater one? That is something else entirely, my friend.
Except no, I'm not incorrect. This is because I know that each Chapter has a 1st Company of Veterans, and that I also know - without needing to look at the BA codex - that it's from this Company that a Chaper draws all their greatest warriors from, be it Company Captains, Vanguards, Sternguards, Honour Guards etc, etc. I also know that 1st Company marines have access to Tactical Dreadnought Armour, which requires specialist training, AKA Terminator Honours. I also know - again, without needing to look at the BA codex - that the various fluff blurbs published by GW about these warriors will invariably read along the lines of thus:
"These warriors are counted among the greatest in the Chaper, they are veterans of countless/hundreds of battlefields. Their deeds are myth/legendary amongst even their own Chapter, they embody the very fabric and nature of a true Space Marine and are the epitome of what each Battle Brother hopes to become. They fight as one with the image and spirit of <insert relevant Chapter Master/Primarch here>, and they are equipped in the very finest suits of armour and greatest weaponry from the Chapters armoury, relics that enable them to destroy the foes of the Imperium all the better..." yadda, yadda etc, etc. Conclusion? They're superior to non-1st Company marines. Period.
Now that I've clarified that, let's move on to Death Company. I know that the only thing to distinguish a Death Company marine from a regular marine is that they've succumbed to the Black Rage. I know - yet again, without having to look at the BA codex - (you may see a pattern emerging) that this isn't seen as a positive thing. Quite the contrary, in fact, as I also happen to know that the Black Rage is regarded as an extremely hazardous, volatile gene-mutation that not only threatens to destroy the Blood Angels, but their successors, too. It is an affliction that curses said marines with an incurable insanity, a blood lust which on the battlefield causes them to ignore fatal wounds and continually rage-assault anything and everything around them until they fall down dead. They are rounded up by the Angels, and then pointed towards the enemy and unleashed like a rabid, frothing attack dog. They are sent off the die, causing as much damage in the process as possible because they no longer have any other use, before the remaining marines - who still have control of their tactical wits - mop up afterwards. And last - but absolutely in no way least, I know that temporary boosts to close combat ferocity and invulnerability at the cost of one's sanity and self-control is of no real use in relation to a Chapters "overall close combat effectiveness" i.e. the context of the topic at hand. Are Death Company dangerous in CC compared to tactical and assault marines? Sure. Are they better in the initial charge and assault phase of any given situation against most type of opponents? Undoubtedly. Are they therefore more effective overall as close combatants than opponents with the same war gear and training who's lifelong specialisation and focus has been close combat? No. Sorry, but no. Why? Because when it comes to martial prowess, losing control of your emotions and wits is not a substitute for skill. Period.
Now, bearing all that I know about the above fluff in mind, I would personally, in my opinion, rank the Chapters thus in CC (from least to most skilled/effective EDIT: I should clarify on a 1-v-1 assumption):
- BA Tactical/Assault Marine
- BT Initiate/Crusader Marine
- BA Death Company Marine
- BA 1st Company Veteran
- BT Sword Brethren - effectively are 1st Company Vets +1
- BA Sanguinary Guard - effectively are Honour Guard +1
- BT Emperor's Champion - they are some of the best close combatants within the entire Astartes, let alone the galaxy as a whole
- BT Special Characters such as Helbrecht and Grimaldus
- BA Special Characters such as Dante and Mephiston - they are historically some of the Imperiums greatest warriors, let alone currently
And that ranking comes from the reasonable assumptions one can safely make, in the context of the topic at hand, about how the BA and BT compare in CC. I am not unreasonably making assertions about who can and can't do what on a lack of evidence in the fluff, like Void is. Simple.
Let's use a comparison. Say there are two towns, A and B, and you know they are quite near to one another and are generally alike. What you know about them specifically comes from two articles. They first is about a rainy day in town A. The second is about a hurricane in Town B. Now, a reasonable person knows that he cannot conclude from these articles whether or not a hurricane has ever hit Town A. Indeed, it would be difficult to decide which town gets more precipitation.
I think a more proper comparison is this:
A = a boxer that has won say 20 professional matches in his career
B = Willie Pep.
Saying that A couldn't do what B has done isn't necessarily correct, but saying that A could "probably" do what B has done is just as wrong, if not more so. When one side has amazing feats and the other though (it is) similar, does not posses feats, the one burden of proof is clearly on the one that does not, and until new evidence is shown, the side with feats "wins" in a hypothetical situation.
).
and maybe casts a spell 
has time to shoot at them cause you just lost two tactical squads and your landraider, the contents of which got massacred and suddenly *tableflip* the horror is over. 
