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Out of those two close combat centri chater who is better in close combat?
Two scenarios for rating:
-Overall chapter effectiveness ( rating entire chapter in close combat battle from tactics to training and weapons ).
-Close combat battle between two chapter masters ( Dante vs. Helbrecht ), because they should be the best fighters in the Chapter.
Discuss.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
Not against each other in battle but rather their service record, training and effectiveness in combat.
We all know that in that case BT would won because they are at least 6:1 ratio.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!
I would say Black Templars, as I think they are more focused on CC than BA. While BA have a love of speed and flight which lends itself to CC, for the most part they still follow the Codex Astartes.
However I think BA win on the Chapter Master battle. Dante's special rules depict him as the unquestionable master of jump packs as well as a hit and run style combatant. I don't think Helbrecht has an answer for that. Worse than that however is that Dante is not the chapter's best fighter, that goes to Mephiston.
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Marine for Marine, I think this goes to the Blood Angels. Blood Angels martial prowess is one way in which they stay focused so as not to fall to the Red Thirst. If they give into the Red Thirst anyway you better hope you have room to fall back, because they are going to rip you apart in close combat, with their bare hands if necessary.
The Emperor Protects _______________________________________
Inquisitorial lesson #298: Why to Hate Choas Gods, cont'd-
With Chaos, Tzeench would probably turn your hands, feet and face into
scrotums, complete with appropriate nerve endings. Then Khorne would
force you and all your friends to fight to the death using your new
scrotal appendages. Once they get tired of that, you get tossed to
Slaanesh who <censored by order of the Inquisition>, until you finally
end up in Nurgle's clutches and he uses you as a loofah.
when mutant goes into black thirst or red rage and maybe casts a spell , BT would go so hard on them, that even the team Edward (successors) wouldn't save them...High Marshall would pummel Dante to the ground too...
O yes 5000 - 7000 BTFTW
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 00:51:11
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
I would say that BA have a higher chance of taking out the BT first because BA specialize in Assaults and Deep Striking, both key elements in CC warfare.
You'd have a better chance at taking out the enemy in CC if you're the first to close the gap between the two and use the momentum of the assault to your advantage.
Since when does the chapter master = best fighter?
Why would that even matter when it comes to leadership? The best fighter in the chapter could happen to be a weak minded fool who could easily fall to chaos or lead the chapter in a crusade directed right at the source of the tyranids all through blind pride... Being a good fighter doesn't make you a good leader.
Obviously they would have a high level of skill but technically the best fighter in the chapter?
I'd guess Mephiston isn't even the best technical fighter in the chapter, he just wins out on physical capabilities.
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I would say that BA have a higher chance of taking out the BT first because BA specialize in Assaults and Deep Striking, both key elements in CC warfare.
You'd have a better chance at taking out the enemy in CC if you're the first to close the gap between the two and use the momentum of the assault to your advantage.
It'd be a close match, IMO.
Void__Dragon wrote: Also, seriously, lol at the notion that Helbrecht is beating Dante more often than not. Dante creams him. This is coming from a Black Templar fanboy.
I gotta agree with all of the above for the most part. It is quite a difficult and close comparison, though. I'd say for the "overall close combat effectiveness" thing, it goes to the Templars. They live and breath for the sweet, sweet nectar that is destroying their enemy up close and personal. It's their specialisation from training day to death. However, this doesn't make them more effective overall as Space Marines. Blood Angels enjoy the flexibility of a Codex force which also happens to enjoy a penchant for assault and deep striking tactics - the Astartes' most effective realm of warfare. Also, CQB isn't strickly one and the same as melee martial prowess. For example, squad for squad, I'd say a crusader squad has a tactical squad beat at CC, and even perhaps an assault squad. However, marine for marine a Blood Angel might well be the better martial artist.
If pitted against one another, I'd say Templars win squad for squad (and chapter for chapter) at CC. But, I'd say death company or black raged Angels have the edge over crusader marines. Also, I'd say the best combatants of the Blood Angels, whoever they may be, would win in a duel with the best Templars, with the possible exception of the Emperor's Champion who would give them the toughest fight they'd ever had. Either way, its close. As a long time Templars fanboy I've gotta admit I expected the poll to lean heavily towards the Angels, due to apart from the "overall effectiveness at CC" category, I'd say they have the edge.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
Just pushed the poll to BA territory (as of this post) for pure tabletop experience; You don't know hell until you've had a trio of heroic intervention DoA Vanguard marines land in the middle of your force and proceed to rip your entire army a new one. Then the assault squads come in and yeah, they sit there but who the has time to shoot at them cause you just lost two tactical squads and your landraider, the contents of which got massacred and suddenly *tableflip* the horror is over.
So in terms of tabletop effectiveness the BA have it for me. In terms of fluff? the BT win purely because they have more marines. 1:1 the BA would win imho, and DC will take more than twice or thrice their number As for best fighter Dante would smack that fly and look for a real challenge
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/02 14:12:31
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
Full chapter effectiveness, Black Templars. They have the numbers and rage to accomplish their mission no matter the cost and have no need for silly deep striking land raiders.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Just pushed the poll to BA territory (as of this post) for pure tabletop experience; You don't know hell until you've had a trio of heroic intervention DoA Vanguard marines land in the middle of your force and proceed to rip your entire army a new one. Then the assault squads come in and yeah, they sit there but who the has time to shoot at them cause you just lost two tactical squads and your landraider, the contents of which got massacred and suddenly *tableflip* the horror is over.
So in terms of tabletop effectiveness the BA have it for me. In terms of fluff? the BT win purely because they have more marines. 1:1 the BA would win imho, and DC will take more than twice or thrice their number
As for best fighter Dante would smack that fly and look for a real challenge
Will have to disagree there, mate. I see your DS Vanguard and raise you a pair of LRC filled to the brim with Crusaders just begging to flay you alive. As well as the Champion that has taken down Skulltaker in single combat. Or the Chaplain that massacres a terminator squad without a second thought. Alone.
Also, fluffwise, The Templar will knock 7 colours of gak out of the BA pretty much every time. Sure, you have DC. But in order to actually stand a chance of annihilating the Templars you'd need 2,000 if your estimation is correct. After Your red boys have killed their worth, too.
Table Top Dante vs Helbrecht ain't no walk in the park either. The only reason I'd go Dante is because of the Axe. Plus which Helbrecht is much, much cheaper than Dante. With more attacks on the charge. Who goes first would also be a deciding factor what with everyone wielding Melta. Otherwise it'd be 2 grots in a slap-fight. In fluff, I'm not sure who would win
I have dug my grave in this place and I will triumph or I will die!
Anyone who seriously thinks Dante would lose to Helbrecht needs to think his or her opinion over very carefully. It's just not a contest. Helbrecht has been Chapter Master for 10 years, Dante for 1100.
In strict Close Combat (as in melee) I'd give the edge to the Templars. That's all they live to do. In close quarter combat the Blood Angels catch up and probably fight evenly with the Templars, and at mid-long range the mobility of the Blood Angels wins the day. Since both Chapters specialise in Deep Strike warfare (Pods for Templars, Assault Squads and Sanguinary Guard for Blood Angels) it'd be an interesting confrontation where both Chapters try to beat the other at their own game.
Table Top Dante vs Helbrecht ain't no walk in the park either. The only reason I'd go Dante is because of the Axe. Plus which Helbrecht is much, much cheaper than Dante. With more attacks on the charge. Who goes first would also be a deciding factor what with everyone wielding Melta. Otherwise it'd be 2 grots in a slap-fight.
Unless Helbrecht manages to Combi-Melta Dante to death Dante will win. He's got a (non-oneshot) melta pistol and a weapon that can actually pierce Helbrecht's armour, whereas the Sword of the High Marshals is AP3. Then there's the Death Mask.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/03 12:47:44
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Voted Blood Angels, because hey - of course I did. :p
Dante is obviously going to smash Helbrecht in close combat, both in game and in fluff. Dante has over a thousand years of experience, a jump-pack, a hit-and-run style AND in combat his power axe will bite through Helbrecht's armour while he still has his usual 2+. And as already mentioned, he isn't even the strongest fighter in the Chapter... Mephiston is.
The actual Chapter fight is much closer. But - and bearing in mind that Blood Angels can load LRCs full of deathstar goodness too, so that one won't help you - I posit Black Templars a question. What do you have that man-for-man will beat Death Company in combat?
...sorry - DOUBLE THUNDER HAMMER Death Company.
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
Super Ready wrote: Voted Blood Angels, because hey - of course I did. :p
Dante is obviously going to smash Helbrecht in close combat, both in game and in fluff. Dante has over a thousand years of experience, a jump-pack, a hit-and-run style AND in combat his power axe will bite through Helbrecht's armour while he still has his usual 2+. And as already mentioned, he isn't even the strongest fighter in the Chapter... Mephiston is.
The actual Chapter fight is much closer. But - and bearing in mind that Blood Angels can load LRCs full of deathstar goodness too, so that one won't help you - I posit Black Templars a question. What do you have that man-for-man will beat Death Company in combat?
...sorry - DOUBLE THUNDER HAMMER Death Company.
Dozens of Battle-barges.
Also, LC Terminators with Furious Charge would probably do the trick without breaking a sweat.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
FNP is 5+ and the Terminators strike first with 5 S5 reroll to wound attacks. It's not even a challenge, especially considering how much cheaper a LC Terminator squad would be compared to double TH Death Company. The point is, Death Company are MEQ. Yes, they're very resilient and killy, but still MEQ. BT Lightning Claw Terminators murder MEQ.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
FNP is 5+ and the Terminators strike first with 5 S5 reroll to wound attacks. It's not even a challenge, especially considering how much cheaper a LC Terminator squad would be compared to double TH Death Company. The point is, Death Company are MEQ. Yes, they're very resilient and killy, but still MEQ. BT Lightning Claw Terminators murder MEQ.
not going on this point, but fluff wise. Doubt theyd have enough to even double hammer the entire unit anyway all points aside, we have more DC than you have LC termies. and we don't hide behind the fleshbags either
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Still get 4+ fnp. Whoevers left gets 5 s8 attacks that you only save on a 5+ against, pretty even. As for the barges, we are talking about chapter to chapter in melee/cqc terms not chapter to chapter realistically.
FNP is 5+ and the Terminators strike first with 5 S5 reroll to wound attacks. It's not even a challenge, especially considering how much cheaper a LC Terminator squad would be compared to double TH Death Company. The point is, Death Company are MEQ. Yes, they're very resilient and killy, but still MEQ. BT Lightning Claw Terminators murder MEQ.
not going on this point, but fluff wise. Doubt theyd have enough to even double hammer the entire unit anyway all points aside, we have more DC than you have LC termies. and we don't hide behind the fleshbags either
If the Templars have the same ratio of veterans as a normal Chapter, there's 600 Sword Brethren. Let's assume that half of those have access to Terminator Armour. That's almost a third of a normal Chapter. Are you trying to tell me that a third of all Blood Angels are Death Company?
And it doesn't even matter; the entire Chapter could be made up of Death Company. Templars still win the orbital war and thus can sit back and bomb Planet X into dust.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
CC was the name of the game. Lets face it, if we were being realistic in any way if two of the most bad :cuss: chapters in the imperium had a groundwar going on the guard would come up and virus-bomb the plnet out of existence, erase all records of either chapter and whistle like nothing happened, because they would not want the risk of the victors being the chaos-crazed ones (not that BT could be them but still. BA hate horus just as much). Also, your winning by numbers, not skill. In a CQB situation with even numbers it would lean more towards BA for the whole maneuverability thing. Not much, mind you
Azreal13 wrote: Not that it matters because given the amount of interbreeding that went on with that lot I'm pretty sure the Queen is her own Uncle.
BA 6000; 1250
Really this thread just failed on about 3 levels, you should all feel bad and do better.-motyak
Thatguyhsagun wrote: CC was the name of the game. Lets face it, if we were being realistic in any way if two of the most bad :cuss: chapters in the imperium had a groundwar going on the guard would come up and virus-bomb the plnet out of existence, erase all records of either chapter and whistle like nothing happened, because they would not want the risk of the victors being the chaos-crazed ones (not that BT could be them but still. BA hate horus just as much). Also, your winning by numbers, not skill. In a CQB situation with even numbers it would lean more towards BA for the whole maneuverability thing. Not much, mind you
CQB and CC isn't the same thing.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
The BT can't really take part in the first scenario. They'd have to make too many records public, exposing their non-Codex numbers and shaming the legacy of Dorn. It's unthinkable for anything less than saving the Empire.
The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant! 
).
and maybe casts a spell 
Bravo Two Seven "Ironhides" 
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
has time to shoot at them cause you just lost two tactical squads and your landraider, the contents of which got massacred and suddenly *tableflip* the horror is over. 
