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 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.

Er, consider the respective authors.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.

Er, consider the respective authors.

ROFL ... this.

For real. The man who brought us the BA also gave us stories about marines who wandered naked into a wilderness haunted by nightmares after days of not eating to do battle with one of the 666 named Greater Daemons (so not just the "normal" kind of greater daemon) and kick its ass so that it could graduate into being a Paladin... who, for arguments sake would (after getting dressed, donning some Termi armor, and getting a force-halberd) have no chance in hell of killing even a normal Greater Daemon on a 1v1 on the table-top... so.... yeah, there's that

Dante would win a 1v1, don't live as long as him by being a slouch in combat.

In overall chapter close combat techniques, I imagine the Black Templar would be better. It's literally what they are known for.

 En Excelsis wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.

Er, consider the respective authors.

ROFL ... this.

For real. The man who brought us the BA also gave us stories about marines who wandered naked into a wilderness haunted by nightmares after days of not eating to do battle with one of the 666 named Greater Daemons (so not just the "normal" kind of greater daemon) and kick its ass so that it could graduate into being a Paladin... who, for arguments sake would (after getting dressed, donning some Termi armor, and getting a force-halberd) have no chance in hell of killing even a normal Greater Daemon on a 1v1 on the table-top... so.... yeah, there's that

They're armed with the Daemon's True Name though, so it's like showing up to a knife fight naked with the psychic skill of the Emperor. You look completely defenseless and then the enemy is a piece of sobbing meat on the floor.

 En Excelsis wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.

Er, consider the respective authors.

ROFL ... this.

For real. The man who brought us the BA also gave us stories about marines who wandered naked into a wilderness haunted by nightmares after days of not eating to do battle with one of the 666 named Greater Daemons (so not just the "normal" kind of greater daemon) and kick its ass so that it could graduate into being a Paladin... who, for arguments sake would (after getting dressed, donning some Termi armor, and getting a force-halberd) have no chance in hell of killing even a normal Greater Daemon on a 1v1 on the table-top... so.... yeah, there's that

OMG, I laughed so hard, then I went really sad realizing this is perhaps canon

 Manchu wrote:
The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.

Er, consider the respective authors.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Wardism? Perhaps, but you can't really turn your nose up on their portrayals in the fluff just because the writing is bad.

I absolutely can.

I'm not going to get on a high horse and explain to you the difference between good and bad writing since I assume you know at least the basics of stringing a sentance together, but the difference between the writing done by Matt Ward and the bulk of the other Codex/BL Authors is not about syntax or grammer. It's about creating a piece of writting that adds to the game without walkin all over previously established material or creating contradictions. (although in Ward's case "walking" all over is more like "stampeeding").

Ward also wrote that the aformentioned hero bested Mortarion (a fething PRIMARCH) in combat, beat the piss out of him so badly that he was able to carve the name of his forbearer on Mortaroin's heart. I don't even want to know how badly you've gotta beat a Primarch's ass before he just sits there and can't keep you from carving some guy's name on a vital organ...

Oh, and he's traveled through each of the four realms of chaos and done a sort of 80's mantage through their "impossible" trials while playing the Top Gun anthem with a guitar while lightening shoots out of his nostrils.

But before this becomes a "why Matt Ward should be fired" thread, i'll tie this back into my point: Bad writing not only damages the game, but it ruins your argument. Authors spend time writing books because they paint a picture for us. That writing has to be of a certain caliber to paint a quality picture. Think about the argument you're having. We're discussing a hypothetical showdown between legions of super-human space cadets with rocket guns and psycho-sorcerous powers. There has to be a pretty enormous work up to that kind of question. This very debate is a result of decades of work on part of many many authors who have all contributed to creating a genuine work of art.

Now, imagine of all those books in the past few decades weren't so well written. What if the Horrus Heresy books just contained the sentance "Horus was a dumbass and challenged the Emprah, got his ass beat and died. Da End". Doesn't leave much room for thought does it? Why? becuase it's not well written. How about a book that simply states: "Blood Angels would bend over and take it from the Black Templars". Also not a lot of writing prowess on display...

Bad writing is quite damaging, more so than to just the point you failed to make

You might have a point if the writing of the Death Company was as vague and minimalistic as you are implying in your Horus Heresy analogy. But it isn't, not to that extent, so your point sort of loses relevance in this context. Not that I really disagree with what you are saying. Were the writing indeed so vague and hard to discern, I would not bother making a claim from that. But it isn't. In the case of Draigo, we know he is physically strong enough to throw a Daemon Primarch to the ground and hold him there, despite how stupid that is. We know his psyflame is so powerful it can burn the Garden of the Nurgle to the ground, despite how stupid that is. We know that his telekinesis is so potent it can crush the Inevitable Fortress and kill a Lord of Change in the process, despite how stupid that is. We know he has the martial prowess to beat a Bloodthirster in the Warp without a weapon, despite how stupid that is.

These are measurable showings, and despite the fact that it required monumentally stupid writing to make it possible, in a discussion concerning Draigo's prowess against another Marine, they enable him the win almost invariably. You don't have to like it, and I don't. But if the subject of a thread has bad fluff, that does not suddenly mean all fluff regarding them is to be thrown out, otherwise no conclusion can be made.

Not that I was ever really citing Ward, nor am I unaware of how bad his writing is, indeed, I am probably more aware of it than you are, I was thinking more along the lines of that fluff excerpt of the Death Company fighter tearing through many many times his number before falling. One guy. Lynata has the quote handy if you want it.

Oh, but if you have contradictory showings of the prowess of the Death Company, by all means, tell me. I won't ask you to quote anything because I didn't bother to do so myself, but please at least tell me where your perspective is coming from. Because if in fact you do not know of differing portrayals of the Death Company, then you are ranting at me for the sole purpose of ranting at me.

Writers can really crumble your universe...I was a big fan of the death guard, but after that heresy and all the ranting from W-whiners and GK fanboys really chilled me out from them...sadly... Now I see the same thing happening with the SW....It's just too much pressure...
I'll go play Salamaders or Raven Guard...

I'm confused, why don't you like the Death Guard now?

Hype around Morty and Draigo, also plague marines(lose) and common marines(win) + glorious black library...

I think we all know what I will say with no bias at all.
How can a bunch of crazy nut jobs who cant control their anger problems best a zealous fanatic fueled by hatred?

To be fair, why is the Death Company even a part of the debate? They're hardly the average Blood Angel Marine, and even if they're crazy they'd still get their asses handed to them by Assault Terminators, just as (Power Armour) Sword Brethren would get THEIR asses handed to them by the Blood Angel Assault Terminators.


Regardless of this, there's something the Templars have that could easily match the Death Company: The Emperor's Champions, in the plural.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
To be fair, why is the Death Company even a part of the debate?

Because the OP 's question is which chapter has the superior CQC fighters. DC are the best CQC fighters the Blood Angels have, therefore they're the standard the Black Templars would need to match or beat.

By feats, it is a standard that the Black Templars have not shown the ability to match or defeat.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
To be fair, why is the Death Company even a part of the debate?

Because the OP 's question is which chapter has the superior CQC fighters. DC are the best CQC fighters the Blood Angels have, therefore they're the standard the Black Templars would need to match or beat.

By feats, it is a standard that the Black Templars have not shown the ability to match or defeat.

Again, Emperor's Champions. And, again, the Terminators of both Chapters are better CQC combatants than the Death Company.

What about Emperor's Champions? Any Black Templar can become an Emperor's Champion; all they need to do is state that they've received a vision from the Emperor, and they get the EC gear. Their individual skill level has nothing to do with them becoming Emperor's Champions.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Terminators? Nothing in the fluff state that Terminators are of equal skill to Death Company marines.

BlaxicanX wrote:
What about Emperor's Champions? Any Black Templar can become an Emperor's Champion; all they need to do is state that they've received a vision from the Emperor, and they get the EC gear. Their individual skill level has nothing to do with them becoming Emperor's Champions.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Terminators? Nothing in the fluff state that Terminators are of equal skill to Death Company marines.

Except the entire part where Terminators are the best Veterans of each Chapter given the best pieces of gear. They're routinely shown to be the hardest, most badass Marines in their Chapter and Terminator Armour is invariably described as the pinnacle of human armour. They're the best of the best in the best gear.

Also, anyone can become Death Company as well, but I don't see you using that as an argument against DC. And while it's theoretically possible that someone would lie to become Emperor's Champion, the entire point is that they DO have visions of the Emperor and are guided in combat by His will. If the Death Company are Blood Angels believing themselves to be Sanguinius alone against the hordes of Chaos, the Emperor's Champions are the Black Templars going in the footsteps of Sigismund, guided by the Emperor's will. Page 15 of the BT Codex states that the Emperor's Champion is guided by the Emperor, presenting it as a fact. It's not just "they believe themselves to be", they ARE. It's the exact same thing as Death Company, only on fewer warriors and turned up to 11.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Terminators? Nothing in the fluff state that Terminators are of equal skill to Death Company marines.

Except the entire part where Terminators are the best Veterans of each Chapter given the best pieces of gear.

Prove that the 1st company marines in all chapters possess the most physical skill in the chapter. As far as gear, that's like saying a Land Raider is the best CQC fighter because it can just run over any man it fights.

Also, anyone can become Death Company as well, but I don't see you using that as an argument against DC.

The reason for that is because we've seen, proven by the fluff, that when Blood Angels succumb to the Red Thirst, they're capable of literally decimating millions of daemons with their bare hands, to the point where Greater Daemons start crying in terror. I don't think you appreciate how telling it is that a creature that by nature does not possess fear, suddenly possesses fear out of how horribly his force's asses are getting kicked.

The Black Templar's have never, ever, displayed such martial prowess.

The Death Company haven't succumbed to the Red Thirst, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Death Company haven't succumbed to the Red Thirst, lol.

This, pretty much. They also had their Primarch present (and almost killed).

EDIT: You may also want to remember that said incident created the Black Rage which could very well spell the doom of the Blood Angels and their gene-brethren.

As for proving that Terminators are the best, consider this quote from Codex: Space Marines (page 64): Once trained in the use of Terminator Armour, a Space Marine is counted first amongst his brothers and is expected to conduct the most difficult of missions and to perform beyond even the lofty standards of the Adeptus Astartes. You don't expect troops that aren't your best to do the hardest work, do you?

And, again, if the Death Company are given a small portion of Sanguinius's skill and power, there's the Emperor's Champions. Unless you're trying to convince me that the Emperor is weaker than Sanguinius, I'm not seeing the Death Company counter that. One on one, an Emperor's Champion would massacre a Death Company Marine.

Id go with BA due to death company

BlaxicanX wrote:


The reason for that is because we've seen, proven by the fluff, that when Blood Angels succumb to the Red Thirst, they're capable of literally decimating millions of daemons with their bare hands, to the point where Greater Daemons start crying in terror. I don't think you appreciate how telling it is that a creature that by nature does not possess fear, suddenly possesses fear out of how horribly his force's asses are getting kicked.

The Black Templar's have never, ever, displayed such martial prowess.

No offense, but this is so much exaggerated comment that it hurts my eyes....Normaly I agree with your comments 100%, but this like childish and makes Draigo to blush...





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Death Company haven't succumbed to the Red Thirst, lol.

And, again, if the Death Company are given a small portion of Sanguinius's skill and power, there's the Emperor's Champions. Unless you're trying to convince me that the Emperor is weaker than Sanguinius, I'm not seeing the Death Company counter that. One on one, an Emperor's Champion would massacre a Death Company Marine.

So you are saying that the Empy is directly fueling portion ofhis power to Emp champions ?

 DarthMarko wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Death Company haven't succumbed to the Red Thirst, lol.

And, again, if the Death Company are given a small portion of Sanguinius's skill and power, there's the Emperor's Champions. Unless you're trying to convince me that the Emperor is weaker than Sanguinius, I'm not seeing the Death Company counter that. One on one, an Emperor's Champion would massacre a Death Company Marine.

So you are saying that the Empy is directly fueling portion ofhis power to Emp champions ?

I'm saying that if believing that you're Sanguinius makes Death Company that much better than an average Marine, being guided in combat by the God-Emperor of Mankind would be the next step on the OTT Power Ladder.

As an interesting side-note that doesn't have anything to do with the Death Company debate or possibly with the topic at hand at all, High Marshal Ludoldus was High Marshal for over 2000 years, being High Marshal in both the Jerulas Crusade of 645.M39 and the Vinculus Crusade of 833.M41.

I know, but I always considered BT sticking to IT and pure (without psychic crap), with ultimate determination to crush enemy, and ofc guided by their devotion to Emperor, none of that paranormal mojo.....
And this is why I think they would win this.....

Ok so I actually read every post from all 2 1/2 pages..

First off people that vote BA because of DC. While I give credit where it's due sword breathern are all amazing fighters who have earned the right to wear term armor. That doesn't exactly come lightly. Plus if you go by the BT codex some are even wearing duel lighting claws. So duel TH vs duel LC it's gonna be messy. Also if you read the BT codex page 24 "however such is there faith in the Emperor and their own invulnerablity that they shrug off the most severe wounds" and that's for every bt marine.. So they are gonna be a pain in the arse to kill.

Also for the emperors champ one thing people have yet to say is that there isn't just one.. Every crusade has one.. So a squad of up armored badass marines that have the emperors blessing. That's just a scary group to come up against.

In general the BT have been on a crusade for how long again? Looking for fights against the biggest meanist xenos they can find. So to me each individual marine will have more combat experience. Also they pride themselves on the idea of close combat so much they chain their weapons to themselves.. Never resting until their foe is defeated.. Also their chaplains are freaking nuts! Have you seen how hard it is to kill grimaldus in fluff or on the table? He doesn't like to die. BT are just going to be harder faster and better in close combat.

Finally for the people who say there is no record of the bt slaughtering masses. " I saw a scene of a massacre where the dead lay on the ground In numbers like fallen leaves in a forest." Inquisitor barzanos investigation into the baron nebula crusade.... Or take into account of the rack that every other chapter stiffens up at the name of the bt knowing them for there shear ferocity and unforgiving.


BA can be awesome but in a 1 on 1 I still put my money on the bt.
Please disregard any typos doing this from a iphone

Ok, all bias aside:
BA have the CC upper hand in a 1:1 fight with:
Death Company against anything short of IC/termies (not double hammer, hammer/LC)
Sanguanary Guard against anything short of an IC or termies
Named Characters against almost anything (not too good on the BT lore)
Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)

The BT have it with:
Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)
Named Characters V. anything but named characters
Sword Bretheren V. anything but DC , termie and IC

They are on par with:

Basic Marines V. Basic Marines
Termie V. Termie
generic HQ's V. generic HQ

So all in all, in a 1:1 battle they are fairly evenly matched. Fluffwise yes, the BT are on an eternal crusade to rip things apart but BA are in the process of staving off a Tyranid invasion and we all know that (fluffwise) that means: good at CC or dead. So lets assume that their basic troops are equal in all aspects, vets are equal etc. etc. In the end it will boil down to numbers; BT have them and BA don't. Fluffwise they are at least equal Mono a Mono, with the BA NC's and DC being better then BT NC and Sword Brethren. So about 80% of the time against an opponent of the same type (termie to termie, IC to IC, NC to NC) they will be equal. That 20% of the time I will say that it is the DC and the NC prevailing against Sword Brethren and NC respectively. Now these few (lets say there is 100 DC marines, and about 60-70 % of the time they prevail meaning that about 60 or 70 marines and 5 NC's) will have to prevail against the extra few thousand marines the BT can pull out of their sleeve. (lets assume the other battles that were 50/50 ended in one killing the other and succumbing to their wounds and dying) So in a war of attrition the BT would rule overall. In a 1:1 battle they would be even, with BA NC and DC pulling ahead in their battles.
Just my honest opinion on the matter

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Ok, all bias aside:
BA have the CC upper hand in a 1:1 fight with:
Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)

I'd argue that the Templars Chaplains are more dangerous. They're the most zealous of any Chapter, the most zealous Black Templars are going to be insane beyond belief. Sure, Lemartes sort of controls the Black Rage. Grimaldus survived having a Cathedral dropped in his head. Otherwise I pretty much agree with your conclusion.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
Ok, all bias aside:
BA have the CC upper hand in a 1:1 fight with:
Chappies V. anything but IC or termies (non termie armor)

I'd argue that the Templars Chaplains are more dangerous. They're the most zealous of any Chapter, the most zealous Black Templars are going to be insane beyond belief. Sure, Lemartes sort of controls the Black Rage. Grimaldus survived having a Cathedral dropped in his head. Otherwise I pretty much agree with your conclusion.

Their chappies are IC's no? I generally would assume the two (BA v. BT) would be equal, but the BT also have the Reclusiarch (mega-chappy) which gives them the upper hand. Although against the BA libbies they can be ID'd by the Force Weapons and they strike at the same initiative. Both weapons are AP3, the chappy gets more attacks at s6 so maybe he kills the libby, but then the libby could also live and get a wound on the chappy the ID him so that seems about even to me. Although the Chappy has that 4++ and the libby can get at best a 5++ force dome (not the DA but I assume all libbys will soon have a PFG) so all in all it leans to the Reclusiarch winning about 70-75% of the time as opposed to 50.

The Blood Angels also have Reclusiarchs. BA one is better out of the gate but the BT starts off 35 pts cheaper and is far more upgradable, so in the end I think the BT one would have the edge.

Orblivion wrote:
The Blood Angels also have Reclusiarchs. BA one is better out of the gate but the BT starts off 35 pts cheaper and is far more upgradable, so in the end I think the BT one would have the edge.

Glazed over that somehow. Prob Claude I never take them anyways
They would be even matches by any means; the age of the BT dex explains the point difference and the matchup is fluff wise not tabletop. Tabletop would bring in the whole point system and strip all the benefits of numbers and make an infinite amount of odd combos (30-man DC with hammer/ LC, which I doubt they would have the armory capacity for)
Fluff wise they undergo similar training and are both masters of combat and such. It stands to reason they would be even matches. The loose end here is what do they have to counter Libby? I would assume they have a great number of 'extra' chaplains to bear but the question still remains what is the BT equvilent