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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm saying that if believing that you're Sanguinius makes Death Company that much better than an average Marine,

Well no one really said that.

And them being "guided by the Emperor" doesn't really have that much relevance, next to feats.

That said, I think an Emperor's Champion probably is better man for man than most Death Company marines.

But there's only one of them, and only occasionally, per battle, lol.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm saying that if believing that you're Sanguinius makes Death Company that much better than an average Marine,

Well no one really said that.

And them being "guided by the Emperor" doesn't really have that much relevance, next to feats.

That said, I think an Emperor's Champion probably is better man for man than most Death Company marines.

But there's only one of them, and only occasionally, per battle, lol.

There's one Emperor's Champion for each Fighting Company of the Black Templars. Multiple Fighting Companies would thus mean multiple Emperor's Champions. The part about Death Company believing themselves Sanguinius is in the fluff, which is why I drew the comparison.

Black Templar. When they get a new codex, I'm sure Helbrect, or whoever replaces Helbrect will get a much needed boost in power to put him on par with other Chapter Masters, as well as all the other neat toys to put them in line with the other chapters.

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
They are on par with:

Basic Marines V. Basic Marines
Termie V. Termie

I'd disagree with this. Remember, the focus of the topic is "close combat effectiveness". Close combat is the Templar's specialisation. A basic Angel = tactical marine and a basic Templar = initiate/crusader marine. The former enjoys the flexibility of a Codex SM warrior, the latter has focused and specialised on one area of battle at the cost of others: close combat. Therefore I think it's safe to say that squad for squad, and marine for marine, Templars have Angels soundly beat at close combat effectiveness. Same applies for first company vets, their just best-of-the-best category so you just scale up accordingly.

 Anfauglir wrote:

Thatguyhsagun wrote:
They are on par with:

Basic Marines V. Basic Marines
Termie V. Termie

I'd disagree with this. Remember, the focus of the topic is "close combat effectiveness". Close combat is the Templar's specialisation. A basic Angel = tactical marine and a basic Templar = initiate/crusader marine. The former enjoys the flexibility of a Codex SM warrior, the latter has focused and specialised on one area of battle at the cost of others: close combat. Therefore I think it's safe to say that squad for squad, and marine for marine, Templars have Angels soundly beat at close combat effectiveness. Same applies for first company vets, their just best-of-the-best category so you just scale up accordingly.

To further build on this, one could argue that Templars win in CC because it's all they do. The Blood Angels follow the Codex Astartes and are thus much more flexible than the Black Templars, but when it comes to CC it's the one thing Templars do all the time. As you say, they don't spend time as (non-melee) Scouts or Devestators, they fight in CC. That's what they do.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Wardism? Perhaps, but you can't really turn your nose up on their portrayals in the fluff just because the writing is bad.

I'm not saying what Mat Ward did with the BA was bad. That's a different thread, that I honestly have no interest in participating in. What I'm saying is, Ward only has one setting: OTT. Your argument about the Death Company and Sword Brethren boils down to the BT not have a dex penned by him.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A Wardism? Perhaps, but you can't really turn your nose up on their portrayals in the fluff just because the writing is bad.

I'm not saying what Mat Ward did with the BA was bad. That's a different thread, that I honestly have no interest in participating in. What I'm saying is, Ward only has one setting: OTT. Your argument about the Death Company and Sword Brethren boils down to the BT not have a dex penned by him.

Bingo. Saying "BT aren't as amazing as BA because there has yet to be OTT feats written about them" is a balls argument. Just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The BT could have accomplished all manner of "feats" and you'd know nothing about it.

Besides, the writing being bad (on that scale, to boot), is an excellent reason to turn your nose up at it.

The BT also could be a cabal of child-molesting Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, plotting behind the scenes to take every firstborn child of Terra and sacrifice them, creating a new Eye of Terra encompassing the Sol System and beyond.

Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!

As much as I'm a BA sucker, I have to sya Black Templars, because they are purely focused on it.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!

Okay, okay. The issue is not that some future BA dex could have the BA being terrible at CC or that some future dex could have the BT being explicitly better than the BA at it. The issue is that the current book for the BA was written by someone who has in every single work "turned it up to 11" in contrast to the preceding edition. The BT book is from a time when 40k was only turned up to 9 or 10.

 Manchu wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!

Okay, okay. The issue is not that some future BA dex could have the BA being terrible at CC or that some future dex could have the BT being explicitly better than the BA at it. The issue is that the current book for the BA was written by someone who has in every single work "turned it up to 11" in contrast to the preceding edition. The BT book is from a time when 40k was only turned up to 9 or 10.

Fair enough, but the OTT example I always use in reference to Death Company was not written by Matt Ward. BA Omnibus has one of them go 1 on 1 with a chaos dreadnought, with just a chainsword, and win. He died very shortly afterwards from the wounds he suffered, but thats still pretty crazy. I guess my point is that it isn't only Matt Ward that portrays the Death Company as an incredibly potent fighting force. That being said, I still think BT win this one just as I said on the first page.

Oddly enough, A similar thing happens in Cadian Blood. A Kasrkin Sergeant and a Guard Captain kill a Chaos dread with nothing but a Power sword, a chain sword and a Hellpistol. And they didn't die. Black Library is renowned for going OTT. It is entirely down to perspective on whether or not it is actually canon.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The BT also could be a cabal of child-molesting Greater Daemons of Slaanesh, plotting behind the scenes to take every firstborn child of Terra and sacrifice them, creating a new Eye of Terra encompassing the Sol System and beyond.

Hey, just because it wasn't penned, doesn't mean it hasn't happened!

Exactly. You example is overblown and purposefully tongue-in-cheek, but I'm glad to see you understand in principle.

Orblivion wrote:
BA Omnibus has one of them go 1 on 1 with a chaos dreadnought, with just a chainsword, and win. He died very shortly afterwards from the wounds he suffered, but thats still pretty crazy.

 The Crusader wrote:
Oddly enough, A similar thing happens in Cadian Blood. A Kasrkin Sergeant and a Guard Captain kill a Chaos dread with nothing but a Power sword, a chain sword and a Hellpistol. And they didn't die. Black Library is renowned for going OTT. It is entirely down to perspective on whether or not it is actually canon.

Again, exactly. A piece of fluff could just as easily pop up featuring a Sword Brethren achieving a comparable OTT feat. Taking the viewpoint that because one hasn't popped up therefore means that "it's never happened ever!" is, as I said, a balls argument.

Black Templars all the way. Best sphess mahreen army ever!

 Anfauglir wrote:
Again, exactly. A piece of fluff could just as easily pop up featuring a Sword Brethren achieving a comparable OTT feat.

A piece of fluff could also pop up featuring a Sword Brethren being explicitly stated to have the martial prowess of a Gretchin.

I mean, speculating on what they could get is all well and good... But it doesn't supplant actual established fluff.

Not that I ever had Wardian exploits in mind when talking about Death Company mind you.

I am just saying that based on their feats of prowess in the fluff, Death Company Marines are decently superior to the bulk of Black Templars pound for pound.

I should note though, that one aspect that has not been touched upon is naval combat. In a naval battle, there can be no doubt that the Black Templars are almost guaranteed victory. They have actually crushed a Necron fleet in combat. And not just any Necron fleet, but the fleet of Imhotek the Stormlord, the most powerful of all Necron Overlords, and they even destroyed his immense flagship. To my recollection, no other army has as impressive a naval showing as this.

That said, the Necron codex had a downside. It sort of shows that Helbrecht probably isn't taking Dante in combat. Helbrecht was outright embarrassed by Imhotek in martial combat. Dante was able to cleave Skarbrand in two.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


That said, the Necron codex had a downside. It sort of shows that Helbrecht probably isn't taking Dante in combat. Helbrecht was outright embarrassed by Imhotek in martial combat. Dante was able to cleave Skarbrand in two.

Really, please stop using this unofficial rumor as a fact...and don't tell me it was on GW site, cause this is a plain fanfiction (from a well known Matty no2)...and a dumbest gak I ever heard... and Draigo is a baby...
If you can post anything that shows that mere SM can kill (one on one) the dude who dented Khornes armor, I think I'll leave wahammer 4life...

.

 DarthMarko wrote:
Really, please stop using this unofficial rumor as a fact...and don't tell me it was on GW site, cause this is a plain fanfiction (from a well known Matty no2)...and a dumbest gak I ever heard... and Draigo is a baby...
If you can post anything that shows that mere SM can kill (one on one) the dude who dented Khornes armor, I think I'll leave wahammer 4life...

.

It was on GW's site.

Skarbrand is no longer as powerful as he once was. What he once did is irrelevant toward the power he wields now.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Really, please stop using this unofficial rumor as a fact...and don't tell me it was on GW site, cause this is a plain fanfiction (from a well known Matty no2)...and a dumbest gak I ever heard... and Draigo is a baby...
If you can post anything that shows that mere SM can kill (one on one) the dude who dented Khornes armor, I think I'll leave wahammer 4life...

.

It was on GW's site.

Skarbrand is no longer as powerful as he once was. What he once did is irrelevant toward the power he wields now.

No matter, this worse then Draigo and unofficial..Also IIRC in BA dex this is stated as a rumor, which Dante FREAKING denied (insert fanboy1 dumb face : *that's what he would exactly do, because he is a true Mary Sue*)...
In the future stop posting retconned material....It is beneath you....

I don't see how you could even conceive of Dante beating Skarbrand as worse than Draigo.

Greater Daemons have been beaten in single combat. This is not a new concept.

Though you may be right on it being retconned, got a page number for where Dante denied it? I don't recall, I'm gonna check the codex myself in a minute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"So long now has Dante lived that his exploits have passed
into myth. It is now impossible to say how many Ork heads
Dante cleaved at the Liberation of Canau, for the tally grows
greater each time the story is recounted. Did Dante truly
defeat the Bloodthirster Skarbrand before the Gates of
Pandemonium? Was it indeed a single mighty blow that
clove the Daemon in twain? Only Dante himself can say with
certainty. Yet he speaks not on such events, no matter how
much the exaggerated nature of such tales must rankle with
his warrior pride. The Imperium needs heroes - needs hope -
in these dark times, and the Commander of the Blood
Angels keeps his peace so that Mankind does not lose heart."

He does not actually deny it, but the narrative does paint it as a legend that's truth is hard to discern.

That's so surreal, Ward actually made it less OTT.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I don't see how you could even conceive of Dante beating Skarbrand as worse than Draigo.

Greater Daemons have been beaten in single combat. This is not a new concept.

Though you may be right on it being retconned, got a page number for where Dante denied it? I don't recall, I'm gonna check the codex myself in a minute.

Really do that...I've had a really painfull discussions on warseer on this matter and I don't wanna go back to this....

I already did.

The BT favour ranged combat don`t they as they believe it is more efficient to kill at range? The Blood Angels do have some great CC units like the the DC so I vote for them.

Yet he speaks not on such events, no matter how
much the exaggerated nature of such tales must rankle with
his warrior pride. The Imperium needs heroes - needs hope -
in these dark times, and the Commander of the Blood
Angels keeps his peace so that Mankind does not lose heart."

Imperial propaganda...this is clear as a day...It is even stated as rumor....

IF you buy this, then Bjorn pummeled Magnus, that GK finished off Angron, Draigo.....was a tatoo master.......

Ofc if you completely disregard what damage deamons did until they met IoM heroes....

P.S. Magnus fully killed the great company and chaptermaster, Angron killed 95 GK, and Morty was on drugs and chopped down a few.....

Now until it is official (without rumor sign in the story) and the vamp gets a story which tells of events - I won't buy that 13 year old crap...

Btw I'm really getting tired of GW - Mephistos and Draigos need to go into fantasy....

 TechmarineNic wrote:
The BT favour ranged combat don`t they as they believe it is more efficient to kill at range? The Blood Angels do have some great CC units like the the DC so I vote for them.

lol.

No, BT are CC specialized.

Void_Dragon, The Fluff involving the martial prowess of Death Company is discounted because of Cadian Blood. Sure, a Death Company Killed a Dread in CQB. So did 2 Cadians. With pretty much the same weapon. It has been said before, but the only reason that BA are so hyped up is because The BT Codex was written in a more relaxed period of 40k.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A piece of fluff could also pop up featuring a Sword Brethren being explicitly stated to have the martial prowess of a Gretchin.

Yes. The difference between mine and your positions on what might pop up, though, is drastically different. One is a perfectly reasonable assumption. The other is ridiculous. Your argument is becoming beyond silly now. And I thought you were getting it...

I mean, speculating on what they could get is all well and good... But it doesn't supplant actual established fluff.

Quite right. Unfortunately, your position isn't strengthened by this truth due to the simple fact that there is no established fluff that outright states: "Death Company did such and such - Sword Brethren cannot and will not ever match it". To think otherwise is kidding yourself.

I am just saying that based on their feats of prowess in the fluff, Death Company Marines are decently superior to the bulk of Black Templars pound for pound.

That isn't just what you were saying though. The above is a more reasonable assumption. Additional assumptions about the Sword Brethren based not on what you've read but what you haven't read is where the problem lies.

You're right, I've never read Sword Brethren performing feats of martial prowess on par with the Death Company.

Which is why I don't assume they can perform feats of martial prowess on par with the Death Company.

When comparing two elements of an army, one that has some established fluff, the other that has less, to reach a conclusion you have to commit a fallacy (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence etc.). Otherwise, you have two people arguing in circles "Oh well Sword Brethren COULD be that OTT!".

Unless you intend to draw this thread out until the next Black Templar codex (Which may never happen, from what I'm hearing), my stance is the far more reasonable one.

"I have read that BA have ..." is a fine argument for what BA have done.

"I have not read that BT have ..." is not a meaningful argument for what BT have not done or cannot do.

In other words, this question cannot be reasonably resolved by comparing published instances of martial feats. We know that

(1) all SM chapters have accomplished any number of glorious deeds
(2) few if any of these have been published in GW/affiliate/licensee works for a given chapter
(3) certain codices, especially newer ones, relate more information of a more OTT character than others

Therefore it is most reasonable to assume that BA and BT are roughly equal as to the breadth of their battle honors. One must in this case turn to something that is exhaustively knowable as a matter of published sources, such as chapter organization or custom.

As of their current codex, BA are shown to have a predilection for Assault Marine formations. This is not the same thing as having a CC focus. As of their current codex, BT are shown to have a predilection for CC specifically. Assuming that the BT excel at their favored style, they are likely better at it than BT -- who do not favor it.

You missed the part where I was only comparing Death Company to Black Templar Marines.

I missed it because I don't think it's reasonable to compare a more elite formation to a more general formation.