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All rules discussion aside, I don't think the BA have the same reputation as the BT for emphasis on melee combat. As a general matter therefore I'd expect any given BT to be better at melee combat than any given BA.

Codices say BT are near a pre-Heresy legion for number of Marine and Neophities.
Blood Angels are cursed, and every century more Marine succumb to the Black Rage/Red Thirst.
So BT'd win IMHO.

For Dante vs Hellbreatch I'm not sure, but I think the former is more powerful then the latter.

I truly doubt they have Legion numbers, at least, the current statement of Legion numbers.

That's 100,000 Marines.

Even the Templars would be nutty to hide that many marines

For full disclosure - when I asked if there was anything to match the DC in combat, I meant, is there anything that BA don't have themselves. Yes of course LC Termies would do a good job of slicing them, but our own LC Termies might have something to say about that.
Point taken on not realistically being able to arm them ALL with double-hammers, though...

Single hammers and LC's. both specialist weapons. +1 attack like a boss

SPARKLE IS NO MATCH FOR ZEAL! Onwards, brothers!

Anyone who disagrees is welcome to head over to the B&C for a complimentary paddlin' by Jasper

 Super Ready wrote:
For full disclosure - when I asked if there was anything to match the DC in combat, I meant, is there anything that BA don't have themselves. Yes of course LC Termies would do a good job of slicing them, but our own LC Termies might have something to say about that.
Point taken on not realistically being able to arm them ALL with double-hammers, though...

Yeah, this is a good point.

In the fluff, the Death Company are pretty balls out awesome in combat, tearing through huge numbers of enemies in close combat in ways only Khornate Berzerkers might be able to match.

Black Templars might be somewhat F'd in the A if they fought their normal way of combat.

BTNeophyte wrote:
SPARKLE IS NO MATCH FOR ZEAL! Onwards, brothers!

Anyone who disagrees is welcome to head over to the B&C for a complimentary paddlin' by Jasper

LOL - yessss DC is bunch of predictable panssies, I say zeal, zeal and more zeal.....Kill the Edwards, kill the mutants, burn the witches....

So why do you think Helbrecht kills Dante?

Definitely not coolness factor. Dude has body shaped body armor. He wins.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
So why do you think Helbrecht kills Dante?

BECAUSE HE ALREADY KILLED a Warp-spawned vamp....

Unless every single BA goes into the rage, i'd go with BT

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Yeah, this is a good point.

In the fluff, the Sword Brethren are pretty balls out awesome in combat, tearing through huge numbers of enemies in close combat in ways only Khornate Berzerkers might be able to match.

Blood Angels might be somewhat F'd in the A if they fought their normal way of combat.

Oh look, hyperbole works both ways.

Only the difference is my statement is true, and yours isn't.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Only the difference is my statement is true, and yours isn't.

Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.

Let's put it this way: in-game, the madness of the Death Company is represented by them having FNP, Furious Charge and Rage. Sword Brethren have Furious Charge and Rage and are from a Codex that's a whole edition older than the current BA Codex. Every single Marine in Codex: Black Templars has Rage (because let's face it, why take any other vow?). In fact, Sword Brethren are, apart from only being WS4 instead of WS5, equivalent to Khorne Berzerkers on the charge. Thus, the comparison to Khornate Berzerkers is almost spot-on.

Also, remember who the guy who bested Khârn during the HH was? His name starts with "S", but doesn't end with "anguinor". The most axe-crazy, balls-to-the-walls Berzerker there is was laid low by a Black Templar (well, technically an Imperial Fist at the time).

Even then, the Death Company wouldn't negate the fact that the Templars have a 6 to 1 advantage.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Only the difference is my statement is true, and yours isn't.

Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.

Insanity =\= combat prowess.

I'm not sure what any of that supports the assertion that Sword Brethran are, match for match, superior close-combatants than DC marines.

I prefer the Black Templars to the Blood Angels, but going by what we've seen of Blood Angels, I'd say that they're superior 1 on 1 to Templars in swordsmanship. In Fear to Tread, when the entire legion simultaneously and spontaneously succumbed to the Red Thirst, they started kicking an entire planet's worth of daemon ass so hard that the Greater Daemon was literally crying out of fear.

Think about that. A daemon. A greater daemon. Crying. In fear of his life.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Only the difference is my statement is true, and yours isn't.

Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.

Insanity =\= combat prowess.

I'm not sure what any of that supports the assertion that Sword Brethran are, match for match, superior close-combatants than Black Rage marines.

I'd argue that a warrior that doesn't fall dead down after combat regardless of outcome is superior to one that does. And the entire schtick of the Death Company is that they're insane and thus fight better than an average battle-brother. I was simply applying that logic to the Templars.

It all comes down to simple math then....If BT win, they win....If DC wins, they lose.....

Also @Blax Insanity =\= combat prowess can be applied to BA too....

God I hate Constantin Valdor.

Your quote in your sig pisses me off Marko.

But still it's a funny quote...If it really bugs you I will remove it.....

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Arguably. You do realize that we're talking about a Chapter whose response to having their battle-brothers killed is to charge faster into the enemy? A Chapter where no one ever retreats from close combat because they're just that insane? It's more or less a Chapter full of Death Company, only not quite as crazy or resilient. The Sword Brethren are the best of the best of these. Not to mention the fact that they all don't drop dead after combat.

Let's put it this way: in-game, the madness of the Death Company is represented by them having FNP, Furious Charge and Rage. Sword Brethren have Furious Charge and Rage and are from a Codex that's a whole edition older than the current BA Codex. Every single Marine in Codex: Black Templars has Rage (because let's face it, why take any other vow?). In fact, Sword Brethren are, apart from only being WS4 instead of WS5, equivalent to Khorne Berzerkers on the charge. Thus, the comparison to Khornate Berzerkers is almost spot-on.

Also, remember who the guy who bested Khârn during the HH was? His name starts with "S", but doesn't end with "anguinor". The most axe-crazy, balls-to-the-walls Berzerker there is was laid low by a Black Templar (well, technically an Imperial Fist at the time).

Even then, the Death Company wouldn't negate the fact that the Templars have a 6 to 1 advantage.

Using gameplay will get you no brownie points here.

The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber. Trying to paint all Black Templars as Death Company is IMHO being disingenuous.

Sigismund was apparently a total badass, on par with any Astartes of that era, true. What does a man who has been dead for thousands of years have to do with the current Black Templars though?

The thread maker made it clear that he is looking for comparisons disregarding the numbers advantage, because of course they would win with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarthMarko wrote:
But still it's a funny quote...If it really bugs you I will remove it.....

Nah, I just felt the sudden urge to bash Valdor. You can keep it lol.

Custodians in general kind of piss me off. They are the reason I couldn't be a Primarch. I'd kill every single one I met, for having the audacity to act smug to one of the Emperor's sons.

 DarthMarko wrote:


Also @Blax Insanity =\= combat prowess can be applied to BA too....

Yeah. That's why you don't see me saying "The Death Company were supremely skilled fighters because they were insane".

You see me saying "the Death Company are supremely skilled fighters" because the fluff quite clearly showed us that a legion of Death Company marines slaughtered an entire planet of daemons, comprised not just of Khorne daemons but also Slaneesh, with such casual ease that the greater daemon in charge of those armies was literally gaking on itself in terror at the Blood Angels' badassery.

That's why I'm saying Death Company marines are badass.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:


Also @Blax Insanity =\= combat prowess can be applied to BA too....

Yeah. That's why you don't see me saying "The Death Company were supremely skilled fighters because they were insane".

You see me saying "the Death Company are supremely skilled fighters" because the fluff quite clearly showed us that a legion of Death Company marines slaughtered an entire planet of daemons, comprised not just of Khorne daemons but also Slaneesh, with such casual ease that the greater daemon in charge of those armies was literally gaking on itself in terror at the Blood Angels' badassery.

That's why I'm saying Death Company marines are badass.

Blood Angels in Fear to Tread were not suffering from the Black Rage, it was far more along the lines of the Red Thirst. Not really sure if that helps or hurts your argument, I just wanted to specify.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Using gameplay will get you no brownie points here.

No, probably not. It's still a supporting fact to my argument though.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber. Trying to paint all Black Templars as Death Company is IMHO being disingenuous.

I'm not trying to paint them as Death Company, I'm trying to paint them as "Death Company light". Assault Terminators bash the living daylights out of stuff all the time. Sure, the Blood Angels have Assault Terminators too. The question is which Chapter spends more time as Assault Terminators and which Chapter spends more time as Tactical Terminators. We have no definitive answer for that question, but considering that the Black Templars deal with boarding actions all the time, I'd give the marginal advantage to Templar Assault Terminators, while I'd in the same way assume that Blood Angels Tactical Terminators would have a slight edge due to experience. Since we're arguing Close Combat, having a slight experience advantage in CC is going to matter, whereas being better at shooting isn't.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Sigismund was apparently a total badass, on par with any Astartes of that era, true. What does a man who has been dead for thousands of years have to do with the current Black Templars though?

It's got to do with your earlier statement:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

In the fluff, the Death Company are pretty balls out awesome in combat, tearing through huge numbers of enemies in close combat in ways only Khornate Berzerkers might be able to match.

If Sigismund was able to best the greatest Khorne Berzerker, and later went on to found a Chapter whose entire modus operandi is built around emulating their founder's style of warfare, is it really that big of a stretch to assume that the Templars could match Khornate Berzerkers in Close Combat, and thus by your comparison Death Company? All Templars probably couldn't do this, obviously, but assuming that the best of them could isn't that much of a stretch when they do everything they can to get into CC as fast as possible.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I'm not trying to paint them as Death Company, I'm trying to paint them as "Death Company light". Assault Terminators bash the living daylights out of stuff all the time. Sure, the Blood Angels have Assault Terminators too. The question is which Chapter spends more time as Assault Terminators and which Chapter spends more time as Tactical Terminators. We have no definitive answer for that question, but considering that the Black Templars deal with boarding actions all the time, I'd give the marginal advantage to Templar Assault Terminators, while I'd in the same way assume that Blood Angels Tactical Terminators would have a slight edge due to experience. Since we're arguing Close Combat, having a slight experience advantage in CC is going to matter, whereas being better at shooting isn't.

Considering that the current BA have sternguard available to them this is probably considered retconned material, but the old Index Astartes claimed that the Blood Angels 1st company is comprised entirely of vanguard veterans.

I think threads like Minotaurs vs FT vs Carcharodons vs BT vs SW vs BA should really be used on tabletop....I'mean every chapter has enough raaaarrgh feats to win....and special skills ofc....

 Void__Dragon wrote:

The Death Company have escapades in the fluff where they tear through many times their number against supposedly equal foes, to my recollection, the Sword Brethren don't have feats of the same caliber.

We do not need to have our deeds recorded. Faith and service are their own reward. Beware the sin of pride, brother

We record their deeds to remember them by. We honor our fallen brothers. Pride has naught to do with the deeds of the Death Company, as they care not for such mundane emotions. The Black Rage overtakes them and they fight. They fight till they die. There is no need for foolish pride. Only honor for the dead.

The Black Templars have way more marines, but marine for marine, Blood Angels own this fight.