Hypothetical, You take a Tau Commander and give him a Drone controller and a Counterfire Defense system. The DC lets the drones use the holders BS for shooting. The CDS lets you overwatch at BS2. Would the CDS BS2 transfer over to the drones in overwatch? I can see this going either way.

I say yep - looks good. The wording on the Drone Controller is that the drones will use the bearer's BS instead of their own. If you put this into an Overwatch situation, the drones *must* use the bearer's Ballistic Skill, who just so happens to be Overwatching at BS2.
If you follow Overwatch on the drones at BS1, not only are you breaking the Controller rule, you've assumed that Snap Shot sets its value afterwards - but this would render the Counterfire Defence System completely useless if that were the case.

If this is the case I can see the Commander+Marker drone squadron being absolutely brutal when combined with Supporting Fire. The commander and his drone squadron fire first and likely end up with a decent number of Markerlight hits and then everyone else gets to use Markerlights to fire at higher BS.

The problem I see with this concept is that snap shots are a set value unless you have a special rule and the drones don't have any special rule to help them. The wording of the Counter fire system says that only the model so equipped gets the benefit which is the special rule that allows the Commander to override the snap shot rules. The drones would indeed start at BS 5 actually but as soon as the snap shot rule comes up they would be reduced back to BS 1 again since they don't have a rule saying they're allowed to keep the higher BS.

 Super Ready wrote:
I say yep - looks good. The wording on the Drone Controller is that the drones will use the bearer's BS instead of their own. If you put this into an Overwatch situation, the drones *must* use the bearer's Ballistic Skill, who just so happens to be Overwatching at BS2.
If you follow Overwatch on the drones at BS1, not only are you breaking the Controller rule, you've assumed that Snap Shot sets its value afterwards - but this would render the Counterfire Defence System completely useless if that were the case.

The drones use the controllers BS of 5 to make snapshots as they do not have the Counterfire Defense System themselves snap shots are resolved at BS1. No dice.

My thought was, BS5 commander goes to snapfire because of overwatch down to BS1, CDS bumps it to 2, Drone controller kicks in and uses Commanders BS2.

The codex doesn't say when or how these pieces of wargear go into effect.

I would say the drones fire at BS2.

1) The unit is making Snap shots, which make all models count as BS1.
2) The suit has a Counterfire Defence System, which states it uses BS2 instead of BS1 for overwatch, so the suit instead counts as BS2.
3) The Drone Controller causes drones to fire using the suit's BS, not their own, the Drones count their BS as 1 per the snap shot rules, but it doesn't matter because they aren't using their own BS, they are using someone elses BS, which is currently counting as 2.

The closest similar situation is Telion's rule which has been FAQ'd to not function, but the difference there is that rule says the model may use "[Telion's] BS of 6" and when making Snap Shots, Telion doesn't have a BS of 6, so it's hard to cross apply that FAQ.

I wouldn't be shocked if FAQs come down the pipeline and say the drones are still BS1, but right now, I think the RAW supports them being BS2.

edit: Also that Telion FAQ needs further clarification at this point because it technically breaks the new Markerlights, and arguably the Counterfire Defense System just by existing.

"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

Chrysis wrote:
"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

Drone Controller. "All drones (gun/maker/sniper) in the same unit as a model with a drone controller use the Bearer's Ballistic skill instead of their own"

BS of model with DC/CDD = 2 so all drones fire at BS 2,

Now we just need commanders with Velocity trackers, Drone controllers, and 2 marker drones to join a 12 marker drone squad.. now you have 14 markerlights that can hit fliers at BS 5.

No, the BS for the Commander is 5. He just uses 2 when he Overwatches because of his special system. The Drones may use his BS of 5, but because they are Snap Shotting they fire at BS 1 because they don't have his Special System. They are not a model with the Counterfire Systems, so they don't have any rules to override the Snap Shot = BS 1 like the Commander does.

But when he snap shots his BS is 2 and they use His current BS to fire

Chrysis wrote:
because they are Snap Shotting they fire at BS 1

But that's not what the Snap Shot rules say.

If you believe they do say that shots are fired at BS 1, I would encourage you to provide a quote to support the claim.

Specific > General

General rule: Snapshots are resolved at BS 1

Specific Rule: Drone controller forces shots to be resolved at model's BS

I'm changing my position and saying that drones must still snap shot at BS1. It's just occurred to me:

Snap shots don't use the model's BS at all. The shots are resolved at the modified BS itself, this is true even for the CDS.

So in full...even when using the CDS, the commander's BS is still 5. The drones pick this up, but their snap shots then resolve at BS1 anyway as they don't have a CDS themselves.

The Codex says:

A model with a counterfire defence system fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

This sets the model's BS to 2, which the drones then use via the drone controller. It doesn't say that the shots "are resolved at BS2", if it did I would 100% agree that a shot resolved at a certain BS is not the same as replacing the BS. However, the way the rule is worded I am reading it as setting the model's BS, which passes to the drones via the controller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm changing my position and saying that drones must still snap shot at BS1. It's just occurred to me:

Snap shots don't use the model's BS at all. The shots are resolved at the modified BS itself, this is true even for the CDS.

So in full...even when using the CDS, the commander's BS is still 5. The drones pick this up, but their snap shots then resolve at BS1 anyway as they don't have a CDS themselves.

His BS isn't 5 though, it's 2 for the Overwatch via the Counterfire Defense System. This BS then passes to the drones via the controller.

If snap shots are always resolved at BS 1, then what is the purpose of the Counterfire Defense System? The support system creates a specific exception to the rule by giving the model a BS of 2 for overwatch fire, the model's BS is then used by the drones per the drone controller rules.

"All drones (gun/maker/sniper) in the same unit as a model with a drone controller use the Bearer's Ballistic skill instead of their own"

Imo means when overwatch occurs they become BS 5, so here they did change their bs to his BS of 5, then overwatch takes place putting them at BS 1, and the model because it says' THE MODEL', at 2. It doesn't say when overwatch takes place then use the BS right? But I coudl really see it going either way.

In my few short months of playing it really seems to me like GW does this on purpose lol

Bloodynecronight wrote:

In my few short months of playing it really seems to me like GW does this on purpose lol

On the contrary, all snap shot/BS modifier rulings have been 100% consistent. GW wrote that rule knowing that. Odds are, the drones would be using BS 1 on snapshots.

tidalwake wrote:
The Codex says:

A model with a counterfire defence system fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

This sets the model's BS to 2, which the drones then use via the drone controller. It doesn't say that the shots "are resolved at BS2", if it did I would 100% agree that a shot resolved at a certain BS is not the same as replacing the BS. However, the way the rule is worded I am reading it as setting the model's BS, which passes to the drones via the controller.

Except that you're trivializing it by juggling uses of the English language. In one place, the BRB, it may say resolved at BS1. Here it says fires overwatch at BS2. Which is the same as resolving the shooting. However, the piece of wargear -Specifically- states that only the model with the wargear fires at BS2. And, the precedence of order still trumps your methodology, as whether you choose BS5 or BS2, when the drones go to shoot overwatch, they are reduced to BS1, as it is the last rule applied. So they fire at BS1 since they do not have -their own- piece of wargear that changes their own BS.

Were this to actually work, then it would be fantastic, as suits with a drone controller and a velocity tracker would give skyfire to drones as well, and the skies would be safe for all Tau. But it doesn't stack that way.

Shananigans...the owners player specifies the timing of when to count the bearers ballistic skill. Tell me where in the BRB that it specifies a piece of wargear has to be resolved before another piece of wargear.

 Salacious Greed wrote:

Except that you're trivializing it by juggling uses of the English language. In one place, the BRB, it may say resolved at BS1. Here it says fires overwatch at BS2. Which is the same as resolving the shooting. However, the piece of wargear -Specifically- states that only the model with the wargear fires at BS2. And, the precedence of order still trumps your methodology, as whether you choose BS5 or BS2, when the drones go to shoot overwatch, they are reduced to BS1, as it is the last rule applied. So they fire at BS1 since they do not have -their own- piece of wargear that changes their own BS.

Were this to actually work, then it would be fantastic, as suits with a drone controller and a velocity tracker would give skyfire to drones as well, and the skies would be safe for all Tau. But it doesn't stack that way.

I'm afraid I still have to disagree with your assessment. The drone controller rule says that "all gun, marker, & sniper drones in the same unit use the bearer's Ballistic Skill instead of their own." If the CDS makes the bearer's BS 2 and you use BS 1 on the drones you are not using the bearer's ballistic skill. It seems your way would introduce a conflict in the rules. My way has a specific exception to the BS1 restriction from the CDS. If we don't pass that to the drones then we are not abiding the special rule on the CDS.

I understand the position that the drone models don't have a piece of gear that allows their BS to change, but they are getting their BS from another model who does have the rule that introduces a flat change in value to his BS, which they use.

That is my interpretation anyway.

thejughead wrote:
Shananigans...the owners player specifies the timing of when to count the bearers ballistic skill. Tell me where in the BRB that it specifies a piece of wargear has to be resolved before another piece of wargear.

It's not the wargear applying last that causes it. It's applying the set value of BS1 that applies to taking a Snap Shot, as the shot is resolved as BS1 rather than the model being changed to BS1.

 Super Ready wrote:

thejughead wrote:
Shananigans...the owners player specifies the timing of when to count the bearers ballistic skill. Tell me where in the BRB that it specifies a piece of wargear has to be resolved before another piece of wargear.

It's not the wargear applying last that causes it. It's applying the set value of BS1 that applies to taking a Snap Shot, as the shot is resolved as BS1 rather than the model being changed to BS1.

The Snap Shot rule on pg 13 says that the model's "BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots", I would say this is the model's BS being changed, which the CDS provides an exception to. The drone controller then let's attached drones use this BS (2) for Overwatch. It is clearly a case of the BS being changed, not the shots being resolved at a different value.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.""


Thats a pretty simple precedent to follow for this particular argument.

Fragile wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.""


Thats a pretty simple precedent to follow for this particular argument.

Except in the new Tau codex it specifically DOES allow markerlights to affect snap shots and Overwatch. What you are quoting seems like a rule regarding things that increase your BS not carrying over to snap shots which set your BS to 1. That is not the case here as the CDS specifically allows BS 2 for Overwatch, which the drone controller lets the drones use.

 Super Ready wrote:
Snap shots don't use the model's BS at all.

That's not true, they use the model's BS, which is counted as 1 when making Snap Shots.

tidalwake wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.""


Thats a pretty simple precedent to follow for this particular argument.

Except in the new Tau codex it specifically DOES allow markerlights to affect snap shots and Overwatch. What you are quoting seems like a rule regarding things that increase your BS not carrying over to snap shots which set your BS to 1. That is not the case here as the CDS specifically allows BS 2 for Overwatch, which the drone controller lets the drones use.

Except that two out of the three examples are using a set BS, or another models BS. Markerlights at the time didn't specify they could effect Snap Shots (because they didn't exist), so they couldn't. Now the Markerlights very explicitly state they can effect Snap Shots, which makes them more specific, so they do.

The rule of thumb is that if it doesn't explicitly state it overrides the Snap shot restrictions then it doesn't.

Chrysis wrote:
"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

I think this clearly explains the situation. When GW uses the word MODEL when it refers to rules, its rules that are intended to ONLY affect that MODEL. I wouldnt let my Tau friends pull that off in a game.

Moridan wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

I think this clearly explains the situation. When GW uses the word MODEL when it refers to rules, its rules that are intended to ONLY affect that MODEL. I wouldnt let my Tau friends pull that off in a game.

Except his wargear of Drone Controller confers it to the drones. One piece of wargear does not negate the other.

thejughead wrote:

Except his wargear of Drone Controller confers it to the drones.

Yes, this is exactly what it does. It confers his Ballistic Skill and only that.

It does not confer any other special rules relating to his Ballistic Skill, hence, they snapshot at BS1 since they have no rule stating otherwise.

The counterfire says the character fires overwatch at BS2 rather than BS1.

This means to me that they are referencing the overwatch rules which say you fire snapshots.

Snapshots say the model is "counted as" having BS1 for the purpose of those shots. (RB pg 13)

Because the codex references the rulebook, it says the firing model is "counted as" having BS2, not just resolving shots at BS2.

The drone controller rules don't specify when you check the drone's BS, just they use the BS of the highest BS model with a drone controller. If that model's BS changes, you would have to match it whenever it happens. And during overwatch, that model will have BS2 after all the modifiers.


So I think that the drones will be firing at BS2.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

thejughead wrote:

Except his wargear of Drone Controller confers it to the drones.

Yes, this is exactly what it does. It confers his Ballistic Skill and only that.

It does not confer any other special rules relating to his Ballistic Skill, hence, they snapshot at BS1 since they have no rule stating otherwise.

It does not state balistic skill denoted in the codex entry. It simply says balistic skill. Also, the owning player decides when a piece of wargear takes effect. You cant say that piece of wargear does not exist.

Look everyone, you can go around in circles until the cow comes home, but up to this point, GW has been very consistent on how snap shots interact with abilities that improve BS:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.

Now, obviously this FAQ answer references markerlights, which now have specifically been said to be allowed to improve snap shot BS, but beyond the codex actually explicitly saying that a certain rule overrides the snap shot restrictions, you have to follow GW's FAQ ruling above.

So until GW comes out and says that Drone Controller BS overrides snap shot BS1 or the markerlight launched seeker BS5 overrides snap shot BS1, you just cannot make that assumption.

I hope that GW does come out and completely answer these questions, but for now, the only things that explicitly override the snap shot BS1 are weapons/models with Skyfire, the actual models that have Counterfire Defense Systems & the Markerlight 'Pinpoint' ability because all of those things explicitly say they improve or ignore the snap shot rule (which is more specific than GW's FAQ answer above.

 yakface wrote:
Look everyone, you can go around in circles until the cow comes home, but up to this point, GW has been very consistent on how snap shots interact with abilities that improve BS:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.

Now, obviously this FAQ answer references markerlights, which now have specifically been said to be allowed to improve snap shot BS, but beyond the codex actually explicitly saying that a certain rule overrides the snap shot restrictions, you have to follow GW's FAQ ruling above.

So until GW comes out and says that Drone Controller BS overrides snap shot BS1 or the markerlight launched seeker BS5 overrides snap shot BS1, you just cannot make that assumption.

I hope that GW does come out and completely answer these questions, but for now, the only things that explicitly override the snap shot BS1 are weapons/models with Skyfire, the actual models that have Counterfire Defense Systems & the Markerlight 'Pinpoint' ability because all of those things explicitly say they improve or ignore the snap shot rule (which is more specific than GW's FAQ answer above.

but the 3 mention abilities where always resolved before you actually shoot.. where the Drone controller applies constantly regardless of phase/turn it just says "use bearer's ballistic skill" not during shooting phase or during your turn it applies constantly and always.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.

but the 3 mention abilities where always resolved before you actually shoot.. where the Drone controller applies constantly regardless of phase/turn it just says "use bearer's ballistic skill" not during shooting phase or during your turn it applies constantly and always.

Those are just three examples, that is not an exhaustive list. But the FAQ question & answer in general is quite sweeping, the BS1 of a snap shot can never be modified by special rules.

So the only thing that can possibly be more specific than this are special rules that explicitly say they modify snap shooting...the Drone Controller does not say that yet, so it needs to be FAQ'd by GW if they want it to apply.

I still disagree, but can see that the argument is getting circular and agree to table the issue in lieu of a FAQ ruling. Yakface, can we get this on the Tau FAQ compilation please?

tidalwake wrote:
I still disagree, but can see that the argument is getting circular and agree to table the issue in lieu of a FAQ ruling. Yakface, can we get this on the Tau FAQ compilation please?

Already done a while ago.

Snapshots don't change the BS of the model. The Commander is still BS5 while firing snapshots. It's snapshots that are resolved at a different BS, in this case BS2 because of the wargear. The drones use the BS 5 of the Commander but their snapshots are resolved at BS1 because they lack that wargear.

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

Some good points made by both sides. I tend to lean to the side of the fence they would get his bs of 2 for over watch. Even cooler if the charging unit was maker lighted in the previous shooting phase and that unit used marker lights to increase their bs, then look out the units going to be making some saves. IMHO the intention of the rules changing rules we have now for the new codex tau is due solely to keep them from getting into cc where they would get steam rolled by grots... LoL

The two rules work in sync with each other. Rule 1 use bs 1 for snap shots like over watch, war gear say your bs is increased to bs 2, then war gear says drones use your current highest bs of drone controllers in the unit. It's treated as a normal shooting attack to except for the special rules we all know exist in the over watch phase.

Time will tell for sure, but the fans clearing stuff up from a book in January still haven't been put out so we may be seeing faster codex's and slower fixes.

Lungpickle wrote:
The two rules work in sync with each other. Rule 1 use bs 1 for snap shots like over watch, war gear say your bs is increased to bs 2, then war gear says drones use your current highest bs of drone controllers in the unit. It's treated as a normal shooting attack to except for the special rules we all know exist in the over watch phase.

Exept the drones then snap fire, so the BS is back to 1 again.
They could get BS10 from the controller for all the good it'll do them. But as soon as they fire a snap shot, it's down to BS1 again. The controller can boost this, they however lack a rule to do so.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

Wrong. Snapshots don't change the BS of the model. The rule is "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"

The commander is always BS5. Only the shots he makes as snapshots are BS2.

I think it should be noted for the sake of this argument that the brand new FAQ came out and remove the specific reference to Tau markerlights in the following question:

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

Which would imply that specific Tau rules can alter the main snapfire rules.

The drones don't have the counter-fire defense system and as such will fire at BS1.

Example1: The Commander Battlesuit and his drones fire at a zooming flyer. The commander has a drone controller. Drones BS is modified to 5 (similarly to a signum or Sgt Telion) and is then reduced to BS1 for a snapshot.

Example 2: The same Commander and his drones gets assaulted during the oponents turn. They elect to use their overwatch. The commanders BS is 5 (as well as the drones because of the drone controller) but this doesn't matter as they are all making snap shots, which must be resolved at BS1. However the commander also has the counter-fire defense system which allows the model with this piece of equipment to resolve its snap shots at BS2.

they are all firing at BS 5 although their shots are being resolved via the snapshot rules at BS1 with the exception of the commander who has a model specific rule that modifies his snap shot BS to 2.

Is there anything I am missing here?

Option 3:
The Cmdr and drones are assaulted, they now are counted as BS 1, the Cmdr has a rule that allows his BS 1 to count as BS 2, The Drones use his BS 2 not their BS 1. The Drones use a drone Controllers BS, not count as the controllers BS, or modified to the controllers BS.

That is the core of the problem. I can see it going either way. I will play it on the side of BS 1 just because of prior rulings.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Option 3:
The Cmdr and drones are assaulted, they now are counted as BS 1, the Cmdr has a rule that allows his BS 1 to count as BS 2, The Drones use his BS 2 not their BS 1. The Drones use a drone Controllers BS, not count as the controllers BS, or modified to the controllers BS.

That is the core of the problem. I can see it going either way. I will play it on the side of BS 1 just because of prior rulings.

Not quite. drones have BS 5 (same as Cdr), but their shots are resolved at BS1.

A counter argument. If you think that drones in a unit with a commander with a controller and a CDS fire overwatch at BS 2, what happens if the Commander does not fire? The drones overwatch at BS 5? Hey the drone controller says use the commander's BS and a commander's modified BS during overwatch when he doesn't fire is 5.

CDS does not give any bonus to drones. A model snap fires at BS 1 unless the model has a special rule, and only the commander has that rule.

 Happyjew wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Option 3:
The Cmdr and drones are assaulted, they now are counted as BS 1, the Cmdr has a rule that allows his BS 1 to count as BS 2, The Drones use his BS 2 not their BS 1. The Drones use a drone Controllers BS, not count as the controllers BS, or modified to the controllers BS.

That is the core of the problem. I can see it going either way. I will play it on the side of BS 1 just because of prior rulings.

Not quite. drones have BS 5 (same as Cdr), but their shots are resolved at BS1.

This is where I disagree. The book does not say overwatch shots are resolved at a certain BS, it says the models BS is counted as being 1 for the purposes of overwatch. This seems to me like a set value, which the CDS changes to 2, which the drones inherit through the drone controller.

Not to dance too finely around the wording, but if a shot is resolved at a certain BS then yes, my normal BS is 5 but the shot is resolved at BS 1, but if overwatch makes my BS value 1 then the CDS changes that value why would it not pass on to the drones? The precedence I am using for this is that markerlights can boost the BS of snapshots and overwatch. If the shots were always resolved at BS 1 then it wouldn't matter if markerlights brought your BS to 10, the shot would be resolved at 1. Instead, snap shooting makes your BS 1, markerlights (or CDS in this instance) changes that. If your BS is set to a certain number and a piece of wargear allows drones to use that number then I don't see where a rule is being broken. To use a BS of 1 on the drones while using a BS of 2 on the Commander seems like it would break the Drone Controller rule.

I am sure I could articulate my position better, but hopefully I got my point across. Either way I think it is certainly ambiguous enough to merit a FAQ.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

No they don't, the shots are resolved at BS1 the model still has his BS of whatever.

I would say that this needs an FAQ.

The main problem is the ambiguity of when to apply what. During Overwatch with Commander equipped with Drone Controller, CFDS, and Two Gun Drones, there are basically three separate Set Values in play; BS 1 for Overwatch, BS 2 for CFDS, and BS provided to the Gun Drones via the Drone Controller (BS 5 then BS 1/2).

I can appreciate and respect the argument against the Drones being BS 2 for during Overwatch, but I disagree with it, for a couple of reasons.

1.) The Drone Controller is pretty clear about all Gun/Marker/Sniper Drones using the bearers BS. I believe this would extend to both Overwatch and Skyfire (Assuming the model with the Drone Controller also had a Velocity Tracker).

2.) With regards to whether or not it applies to Overwatch (or Skyfire), the Codex does address other pieces of wargear as specifically not working for Overwatch purposes, namely the Command and Control Node and Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite. Given that it specifically says 'No' to these functioning for Overwatch and simultaneously makes no such declaration of restricting the Drone Controller with regards to Overwatch, I believe this opens the door for the Drone Controller bestowing BS 2 for Overwatch (CFDS) and BS 5 when shooting at a flyer (Velocity Tracker).

Ultimately, if/when it gets FAQed, I can see it going either way.

Oh i agree it's not written clearly at all.

 HoverBoy wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

No they don't, the shots are resolved at BS1 the model still has his BS of whatever.

Yay, multiquotes!
But anyway. It says in the rulebook that the model "counts as" having BS1 for the purposes of the shot. If it said resolved I would agree with you, but it doesn't. The model has a BS of 1. Which is changed to a BS of 2,. then after overwatch firing it goes back to BS 5.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

No they don't, the shots are resolved at BS1 the model still has his BS of whatever.

Yay, multiquotes!
But anyway. It says in the rulebook that the model "counts as" having BS1 for the purposes of the shot. If it said resolved I would agree with you, but it doesn't. The model has a BS of 1. Which is changed to a BS of 2,. then after overwatch firing it goes back to BS 5.

So you are modifying a models BS of 1 for a Snap Shot without specific permission? The Commander has permission to use a different BS for Snap Shots. Where is the Drones?

 Happyjew wrote:

So you are modifying a models BS of 1 for a Snap Shot without specific permission? The Commander has permission to use a different BS for Snap Shots. Where is the Drones?

It comes with the Drone Controller. The drone controller says that (paraphrasing here, don't have codex in front of me) the drones use the controller's BS skill instead of their own. It doesn't say this only happens in the shooting phase, it just says that they use his skill. If his skill is 5, then they use that. If it is 2 from the CDS then they use that. I have permission from the drone controller to use the BS of the bearer of the controller.

 DakkaHammer wrote:
The counterfire says the character fires overwatch at BS2 rather than BS1.

This means to me that they are referencing the overwatch rules which say you fire snapshots.

Snapshots say the model is "counted as" having BS1 for the purpose of those shots. (RB pg 13)

Because the codex references the rulebook, it says the firing model is "counted as" having BS2, not just resolving shots at BS2.

The drone controller rules don't specify when you check the drone's BS, just they use the BS of the highest BS model with a drone controller. If that model's BS changes, you would have to match it whenever it happens. And during overwatch, that model will have BS2 after all the modifiers.

This is why

I am absolutely not claiming this was their intention with the Drone Controller because it seems very strong, I don't even plan to play this way as I don't really run drones that would make use of it. RAI I believe they do not intend for the Drone Controller to also benefit from the CDS (or velocity tracker for that matter).

Every instance where the BS is modifed has been excluded in the FAQ and by the BRB, snap shots are a set value not a modifer.

The Tau markerlights and couterfire defence system has specficly said you can use modfied BS during snap shots, this is the most important part.

Snap shots are resolved at bs1 rather then the normal BS, therefore drones will be snap shooting at bs1, the counterfire does not change the bs of the wearer all it says is instead of snap shotting at bs1, its bs2. It does not say the wearer is bs2 so the drones cannot benefit from it

MarkyMark wrote:
Every instance where the BS is modified has been excluded in the FAQ and by the BRB, snap shots are a set value not a modifier.

The Tau markerlights and couterfire defense system has specifically said you can use modified BS during snap shots, this is the most important part.

Snap shots are resolved at bs1 rather then the normal BS, therefore drones will be snap shooting at bs1, the counterfire does not change the bs of the wearer all it says is instead of snap shooting at bs1, its bs2. It does not say the wearer is bs2 so the drones cannot benefit from it

QFT

Keeping the fact that every instance (I'm aware of) that modifies BS has been disallowed from doing this unless specifically given permission (like how marker lights permit you to modify the BS of a snap shot) and that the Counter-Fire defense system is a model specific piece of war gear I can quite confidently say that this does not work.

However an FAQ to clear up peoples concerns would be necessary to end the debate. I will eat my own hat if they fire at BS2.

Edit: Spelling/grammar

MarkyMark wrote:
Every instance where the BS is modifed has been excluded in the FAQ and by the BRB, snap shots are a set value not a modifer.

The Tau markerlights and couterfire defence system has specficly said you can use modfied BS during snap shots, this is the most important part.

Snap shots are resolved at bs1 rather then the normal BS, therefore drones will be snap shooting at bs1, the counterfire does not change the bs of the wearer all it says is instead of snap shotting at bs1, its bs2. It does not say the wearer is bs2 so the drones cannot benefit from it

The CDS says

A model with the counterfire defense system fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1

All shooting in a squad happens simultaneously. Commander fires Overwatch. Check his BS, which is 2 from the CDS. Drones also fire Overwatch. Check their BS. Drone Controller says they use the Commander's BS. What is his BS?

At the time you check the Commander's BS for the drone controller it is BS 2. This is the BS used for the drones. If it is 1 then you are not using the Commander's BS.

Put it this way then, as you ignored the first part, where in the rules are you allowed to override snap shoots for the drones?

MarkyMark wrote:
Put it this way then, as you ignored the first part, where in the rules are you allowed to override snap shoots for the drones?

Don't get testy, I didn't ignore anything. I responded to the part that is relevant to the discussion. Also, since you ignored my previous post where I clearly said that the permission came from the Drone Controller. I don't know how much more clear the rule can be.

All Gun Drones, Marker Drones and Sniper Drones in the same
unit as a model with a drone controller use the bearer's Ballistic
Skill instead of their own

When firing Overwatch the bearer of the CDS has a BS of 2. It doesn't matter if the drones get reduced to BS 1. They use the Drone Controller's BS.

If you are looking for specific exception to firing Overwatch at BS 1 for the drones you won't find it, instead you are told to use the controller's BS, which is 2 at the time Overwatch is fired.

Again, since you likely didn't see it I will reiterate: I don't think this was the intention, simple because 5 points to make all drones in a squad double their Overwatch effectiveness is silly overpowered. I don't play it this way. But the strict RAW would be that it works my way.

The Drones don't have a CDS.
It doesn't matter what BS the bearer of the CDS has, they could have BS10 for making Snap Shots. They could pass on any BS value.
The Drones however are still making a Snap Shot, and they have no rule that allows them to improve their shooting with Snap Shots.
Doesn't matter what BS is passed on.

 grendel083 wrote:
The Drones don't have a CDS.
It doesn't matter what BS the bearer of the CDS has, they could have BS10 for making Snap Shots. They could pass on any BS value.
The Drones however are still making a Snap Shot, and they have no rule that allows them to improve their shooting with Snap Shots.
Doesn't matter what BS is passed on.

Sorry, I guess we just have to disagree. The Drone Controller says that you use the bearer's BS instead of the drone's own. They have permission to use the BS of the controller's bearer. They don't need a CDS of their own, they aren't using their BS. It wouldn't matter if their BS was better than the drone controller's, they use his BS. It does matter what BS he passes on because they use that BS instead of their own. I fully agree that snap shooting sets their BS to 1, they aren't using their BS.

To put it more simply:

Drone Controller allows drones to use the controller's BS skill -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Drone Controller bearer's BS is 2 when firing Overwatch with a CDS -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

tidalwake wrote:
They have permission to use the BS of the controller's bearer.

True. But they have no permission to modify the BS penalty of a Snap Shot.

Drone Controller allows drones to use the controller's BS skill -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Drone Controller bearer's BS is 2 when firing Overwatch with a CDS -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Is the Drone making a Snap Shot? Yes or No

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Taking the above FAQ into account, are you modifying the BS of the Drone? Yes or No

Does the Drone have a rule allowing it to improve its BS in regards to Snap Shots? Yes or No

Does the CDS rule allow the Drone to use anything else other that the bearer's BS? Because BS alone is not enough to effect a Snap Shot.

 grendel083 wrote:

tidalwake wrote:
They have permission to use the BS of the controller's bearer.

True. But they have no permission to modify the BS penalty of a Snap Shot.

Drone Controller allows drones to use the controller's BS skill -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Drone Controller bearer's BS is 2 when firing Overwatch with a CDS -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Is the Drone making a Snap Shot? Yes or No

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Taking the above FAQ into account, are you modifying the BS of the Drone? Yes or No

Does the Drone have a rule allowing it to improve its BS in regards to Snap Shots? Yes or No

Does the CDS rule allow the Drone to use anything else other that the bearer's BS? Because BS alone is not enough to effect a Snap Shot.

Ok, I will try to go in order here. Hope the formatting works out.

Yes the drone is making a snap shot.

I don't really think that FAQ applies. For one isn't that the one that used to also have the Tau Markerlights in it? They took that out since Markerlights have the ability to affect snap shots now. Also aren't those abilities (Voice of Experience and Signums) used in the shooting phase?

No, I am not modifying the BS of the drone, I am replacing it. I am using the controller model's BS instead of their own BS. This is what the drone controller wargear says to do.

No, the drone does not, but since it is replacing its' BS with a value that does have the ability to take Overwatch at BS 2 then this seems moot.

The last one I am not clear on, we are not modifying the drones BS, we are replacing it. The bearer's BS is 2 for Overwatch (not other snap shots).

Hopefully I got them all, I guess the difference between the positions is that I feel that when the Codex says to replace the drone's BS that I should do exactly that. I am not modifying it, I am replacing it with the BS of a model that can fire BS 2 Overwatch.

The Codex doesn't say replace, it says use.
But if it says replace, use, modify it really doesn't matter.
If the drone uses it's own BS or another models BS, it's still making a Snap Shot.
Use whatever BS you want the Drone must still make a Snap Shot.
It has no rule to improve Snap Shots, and the CDS allows nothing other than the bearer's BS to be passed on.

Edit: When I say "use whatever BS you want" I really meant Balistic Skill. Appologies if the Acronym makes it sound like something else.

Except if you have the Drones shoot at BS 1 for Overwatch you're not using the bearer of the Drone Controller's BS, which would be 2 in the case of CFDS.

This needs an FAQ badly.

(edited for grammar)

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:
Except if you have the Drones shoot at BS 1 for Overwatch you're not using the bearer of the Drone Controller's BS, which would be 2 in the case of CFDS.

Snap Shots don't usually use the models BS, so there's no difference here. Give the model any BS you like, a Snap Shot is still BS1.
What you're trying to do is pass on the models ability to use BS2 rather than BS1. This is not the same as using the bearers BS, and not what the CDS allows you to do.

This needs an FAQ badly.

Absolutely. Shame it'll take a few months, if it happens at all.

 grendel083 wrote:
Snap Shots don't usually use the models BS, so there's no difference here. Give the model any BS you like, a Snap Shot is still BS1.
What you're trying to do is pass on the models ability to use BS2 rather than BS1. This is not the same as using the bearers BS, and not what the CDS allows you to do.

But it does. The rules say the model is "counted as" having BS1 for the purpose of the shots

Added: And Yes, I agree this needs an FAQ. Personally, i'm just going to stay away from these pieces of wargear put together

 grendel083 wrote:
Snap Shots don't usually use the models BS, so there's no difference here. Give the model any BS you like, a Snap Shot is still BS1.
What you're trying to do is pass on the models ability to use BS2 rather than BS1. This is not the same as using the bearers BS, and not what the CDS allows you to do.

You may be right, you may not. I will agree to disagree pending an FAQ, though I do believe RAI is probably on your side of the argument, I just think the RAW is currently to ambiguous regarding this situation, especially given the specific restrictions on other Tau wargear (C and C Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite), with no such restrictions bestowed upon the DC.

 grendel083 wrote:

This needs an FAQ badly.

Absolutely. Shame it'll take a few months, if it happens at all.

LOL! If it only took a few months I'll count my lucky stars! Sadly, given GW's track record in the past, the 'if it happens at all' part is a distinct possibility.

There is an FAQ. It's been quoted at you already. You can't override snapshot with mere BS.

I really don't think that FAQ applies in this instance. The Drone Controller sets the drones BS to the bearers, it doesn't modify(such as +1/-1), nor does the Drone Controller make any stipulations one way or the other regarding how other wargear (CFDS, Velocity Tracker) functions in conjunction with the Drone Controller.

That FAQ also used to include Markerlights, which know laugh at that FAQ. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the relevant Codex on hand, but I'm pretty sure those specific rules/wargear covered in the FAQ (Telion/Signum) only applied in the shooting phase to begin with. This is much like the wording regarding the C and C Node and Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite. The Drone Controller has no such wording.

Therefore, a specific FAQ regarding Drone Controllers and their interactions with other pieces of wargear (Velocity Tracker and CFDS) and any accompanying drones is indeed required.

Shaso - reread Modifiers, and note that Set Value is a type of modifier.

Using BS2, then setting it to BS1 complies with both the rules for using the DC BS AND the Snapshot rules.

The FAQ most certainly DOES apply

Signums set a BS to 5 exactly as the same way as a Drone Controller. Guess what BS they snap shot at? That's right, 1.

Yeah...this needs a FAQ i can see it both ways.

Counterfire does say this model, but it alters the BS of this model.

Drone controller says all drones un the unit use this model's BS instead of their own.

Considering it doesnt say only in the shooting phase (like multi-trackers do) i would assume it works for overwatch.

If anything, it needs a FAQ because this feels like a play on rules even if its kinda out in the open on how it works w/o any digging.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:
I really don't think that FAQ applies in this instance. The Drone Controller sets the drones BS to the bearers, it doesn't modify(such as +1/-1), nor does the Drone Controller make any stipulations one way or the other regarding how other wargear (CFDS, Velocity Tracker) functions in conjunction with the Drone Controller.

That FAQ also used to include Markerlights, which know laugh at that FAQ. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the relevant Codex on hand, but I'm pretty sure those specific rules/wargear covered in the FAQ (Telion/Signum) only applied in the shooting phase to begin with. This is much like the wording regarding the C and C Node and Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite. The Drone Controller has no such wording.

Therefore, a specific FAQ regarding Drone Controllers and their interactions with other pieces of wargear (Velocity Tracker and CFDS) and any accompanying drones is indeed required.

Tau markerlights have nothing to do with this situation, was you the person that said tau wargear is not subject to the FAQ as markerlights was removed as a example?

Yes the others apply to the shooting phase, but as we are talking about overwatch what other phase rules are you going to be using?. The drone controller has no such wording as it does not specifcally call out snap shot, so there is no allowence to ignore the BS1 of snap shots nor the FAQ.

The counterfire allows the model to fire at bs2 for snap shots, not anyone else. If it was RAI then it would have been mentioned in the codex, as it is RAW as per FAQ and BRB it is bs1.

The Phase that the Signum is used doesn't matter. You can fire Snap Shots in any phase, not just overwatch.
If the Signum was used on a Devastator that moved (therefore Snap Shoooting) the Snap Shot would still be BS1.
The Devastator is using BS5 from the Signum, exactly the same way as a Drone would use BS2 from the CDS bearer.
Both would still Snap Shoot at BS1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shaso - reread Modifiers, and note that Set Value is a type of modifier.

Using BS2, then setting it to BS1 complies with both the rules for using the DC BS AND the Snapshot rules.

The FAQ most certainly DOES apply

mod·i·fi·er
/ˈmädəˌfīər/
Noun

1. A person or thing that makes partial or minor changes to something.
2. A word, esp. an adjective or noun used attributively, that restricts or adds to the sense of a head noun

Therefore, a modifier would indeed be a +1/-1, not an outright REPLACEMENT of.

The argument for it applying to Overwatch is that there are multiple set values in play at the same time, with no instruction regarding which is applied first. Overwatch sets BS to 1, CFDS then sets Overwatch BS to 2, Drone Controller then sets any attached drones to the bearer's BS. The problem with the FAQ that you guys are sighting is that the wargear/Telion make no specific mention of Overwatch in their respective rules, whereas the CFDS does specifically mention Overwatch.

Shas'O - so not only did you not read the Rulebook section I pointed to, you then broke the tenets of this forum?

The BRB DEFINES what a modifier is. This fits that definition. You have no exception to the requirement that a snapshot is resolved at BS1

CF only specifially allows the bearer to fire at BS2, not a drone controller "borrowing" his BS. THAT BS, no matter the value, IS BS1 because the rules for snapshots require that to be the case

You have no permission to override snapshot, so you cannot. THe FAQ backs this up.

Drones fire at BS1

Well, i guess pending a FAQ the best thing to do is discuss it with the other player before the game starts. I usually point our weird rules like that then ask what they think it means, then we both agree and move on. Nothing is more annoying than positioning your army/models in a way you think is best for the round to then have a random rule mess up your game.

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Well, i guess pending a FAQ

That's the thing though, there's already a FAQ. The rules are 100% clear on this subject.

The only thing ambiguous is the motivation of those opposing those rules.

Because the FAQ is for modifying the BS, not for using some one elses BS.

Though I wonder about Tellios as I am not familiar with him, but from what it sounds like is that he can now pass on his BS1 from snapshots. Could someone pm me the exact wording on his rule, as I will never purchase an Imperial codex, and can't debate further without having the information present.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Because the FAQ is for modifying the BS, not for using some one elses BS.

You use your BS to shoot, whether it's the models or someone else's makes no difference to how Snap Shots work.
And changing one value to another is modifying it. Adding or replacing completely is covered by the Modifiers rule.
And the wording of Telion's rule is "use his ballistic skill". Same as Signums. Same as Drone Controller.

Ah, so in other words his snap shot BS 1 is transferred to other models. So a Snap Shot BS 2 is still a possibility, as his "Counts as" BS 1 can be transferred, but doesn't exactly help as he is transferring a BS 1. Where as the Commander is transferring a BS 2. I thought Signums simply gave a BS 5 in the shooting phase?

It definitely needs an FAQ as it can legitimately be read either way.

Doesn't matter what BS is being passed on. Can pass on 10 if you like. Making a Snap Shot is BS1 regardless of what BS the model has, or gets.
The only way to improve the BS of a Snap Shot is if the Drone controller past on the rules of the CDS.
Problem is it doesn't. Only the bearer's BS is passed on and that makes no difference to Snap Shots.

 grendel083 wrote:
Doesn't matter what BS is being passed on. Can pass on 10 if you like. Making a Snap Shot is BS1 regardless of what BS the model has, or gets.
The only way to improve the BS of a Snap Shot is if the Drone controller past on the rules of the CDS.
Problem is it doesn't. Only the bearer's BS is passed on and that makes no difference to Snap Shots.

And that is the point of contention. You are not using the BS of the bearer if you use BS 1, but you are not snap firing correctly if you use BS 2. Tellion doesn't matter as he can only pass on BS 1 as he is set to BS 1 when snap firing. He is not able to pass on BS 5 as he is not himself BS 5 for those shots.

Also why I wanted the full exact rules for Tellion. I also would like full exact rules for the Signum. It does make it far easier to constructively debate a rule.

I have read the FAQ, as well as the Tau rules. It is not as cut and dry as you seem to believe. It has enough room for interpretation to argue both ways, simply buy reading these rules/entries. With the added knowledge of Tellion's rules and the Signums rules may clear up my reading of the rules, but it may leave it in the same space as now, because as I said before, it looks like Tellion can transfer his BS 1 (remember he is snap firing so is dropped to BS 1) to other squad members.

When making a Snap Shot you don't use the models own BS, so what difference does it make that you're not using a passed on BS?
The model does indeed gain the BS being passed on, but when making a Snap Shot it simply isn't used.

The relevant parts of the two rules mentioned (I won't give out full rules for obvious reasons).

Telion: "...one friendly model in his squad can use his ballistic skill of 6."
Signum: "...one model in his squad is ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

Neither of these can effect a Snap Shot. If using a Ballistic Skill of 6 doesn't effect a Snap Shot, how is using a skill of 2 going to do it? In both cases your using the BS of something else.

Only the BS of the Drone Controller's bearer is passed on, the ability to modify Snap Shots isn't. And passing on a BS makes no difference on Snap Shots.

 grendel083 wrote:
When making a Snap Shot you don't use the models own BS, so what difference does it make that you're not using a passed on BS?
The model does indeed gain the BS being passed on, but when making a Snap Shot it simply isn't used.

The relevant parts of the two rules mentioned (I won't give out full rules for obvious reasons).

Telion: "...one friendly model in his squad can use his ballistic skill of 6."
Signum: "...one model in his squad is ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

Neither of these can effect a Snap Shot. If using a Ballistic Skill of 6 doesn't effect a Snap Shot, how is using a skill of 2 going to do it? In both cases your using the BS of something else.

Only the BS of the Drone Controller's bearer is passed on, the ability to modify Snap Shots isn't. And passing on a BS makes no difference on Snap Shots.

Agreed. Snap Shots do not change Telion's BS, and even if they did Telion is not firing when he grants that ability, so his BS would not be affected when it is being passed on.

There is literally no reason exact same principle applies to Telion's special rule as it should to this situation in the Tau Codex.

Now, GW has sometimes gone out of their way to make inconsistent FAQ rulings (like having failed vehicle DT tests cause a Hull Point to be lost while at the same time saying in general that if a glancing or penetrating hit isn't caused that a Hull Point is NOT lost, or saying that attacks which automatically hit cannot affect zooming flyers, but then allowing Imotekh's ability to affect flyers), so they certainly could come back and give this ability to the Tau as an exception.

But given how the FAQs stand now, the consistent ruling is to say that the snap shot rule takes precedence and the drones resolve their overwatch as snap shots at BS1.

 grendel083 wrote:
When making a Snap Shot you don't use the models own BS, so what difference does it make that you're not using a passed on BS?
The model does indeed gain the BS being passed on, but when making a Snap Shot it simply isn't used.

The relevant parts of the two rules mentioned (I won't give out full rules for obvious reasons).

Telion: "...one friendly model in his squad can use his ballistic skill of 6."
Signum: "...one model in his squad is ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

Neither of these can effect a Snap Shot. If using a Ballistic Skill of 6 doesn't effect a Snap Shot, how is using a skill of 2 going to do it? In both cases your using the BS of something else.

Only the BS of the Drone Controller's bearer is passed on, the ability to modify Snap Shots isn't. And passing on a BS makes no difference on Snap Shots.

This is where my contention still comes in however as neither the Signum, nor Telion's rule allow you to override the BS1 of an overwatch. The CDS does, which changes the BS to 2 for the model, the models BS is then passed on.

However, at this point I have made my case for my position and all we are doing is repeating ourselves. I maintain my position, but I am out of this debate until a FAQ on the issue can clarify.

For those who are claiming this is cut and dry...I think you are being disingenuous as there is clearly more than one interpretation of this rule.

The CDS can true. But the drones don't have a CDS.
And the Drone Controller can only pass on the bearer's BS, not the CDS's ability to alter Snap Shots.

I agree it isn't clear cut, takes a while following all relevant rules to arrive at any conclusion.

tidalwake wrote:

This is where my contention still comes in however as neither the Signum, nor Telion's rule allow you to override the BS1 of an overwatch. The CDS does, which changes the BS to 2 for the model, the models BS is then passed on.

However, at this point I have made my case for my position and all we are doing is repeating ourselves. I maintain my position, but I am out of this debate until a FAQ on the issue can clarify.

For those who are claiming this is cut and dry...I think you are being disingenuous as there is clearly more than one interpretation of this rule.

But the point is, Telion's BS is 6. He isn't firing overwatch, so there is literally no way you can possibly say that his BS is somehow being lowered to 1.

Hell, even if you believe this is a case of two things happening simultaneously, the player whose turn it is (which in the case of overwatch is going to be your opponent) is going to choose to apply the snap shot's 'set modifier' last.


I agree that it should be FAQ'd and I do think there is always the outside chance that GW will make this an exception, but as it stands now I do think it is pretty solidly clear, sad to say, as much as I would like it not to be personally.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shaso - reread Modifiers, and note that Set Value is a type of modifier.

Using BS2, then setting it to BS1 complies with both the rules for using the DC BS AND the Snapshot rules.

The FAQ most certainly DOES apply

You know Nos, I believe Beast was correct in our previous back in forth (then the back and forth that you and he engaged in) on another thread, you're just a disagreeable Chap! Fool me once, shame on you, I'll be damned if I'll let you get away with it again! You don't bother to address any specific points I made, which were that my contention is that Snapfire, CFDS, and DC BS are ALL Set Values.

Snapfire SETS to BS 1, CFDS SETS to BS 2, Drone Controller SETS drones BS to the Bearer of the DC.

Therefore a specific FAQ regarding the DC and how it interacts with other wargear is REQUIRED!

Beast was also right about the Ignore Feature, simply amazing!

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Well, i guess pending a FAQ

That's the thing though, there's already a FAQ. The rules are 100% clear on this subject.

The only thing ambiguous is the motivation of those opposing those rules.

Disagreeing with my opinion is fine, questioning my motivation is BULL. You are insinuating that I am trying to gain some advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which I am clearly not if you bothered to read my previous posts in this thread.

The rules are not 100% clear, as evidenced by this very thread!

Shas'o:
First - attack the post, not the poster,
Second - Using the BS of the Controller, is a modifier. Agree or disagree
Third - Unless you have specific permission you cannot modify the BS1 of Snap Shots. Agree or Disagree?
Fourth - Drone Controllers do not give specific permission to override the BS1 of Snap Shots. Agree or Disagree?
Fifth - what exactly is your point that nos is not addressing?

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

The only thing ambiguous is the motivation of those opposing those rules.

Disagreeing with my opinion is fine, questioning my motivation is BULL. You are insinuating that I am trying to gain some advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which I am clearly not if you bothered to read my previous posts in this thread.

Uh? The only thing I insinuated about your motivation was that it was ambiguous.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shaso - reread Modifiers, and note that Set Value is a type of modifier.

Using BS2, then setting it to BS1 complies with both the rules for using the DC BS AND the Snapshot rules.

The FAQ most certainly DOES apply

You know Nos, I believe Beast was correct in our previous back in forth (then the back and forth that you and he engaged in) on another thread, you're just a disagreeable Chap! Fool me once, shame on you, I'll be damned if I'll let you get away with it again! You don't bother to address any specific points I made, which were that my contention is that Snapfire, CFDS, and DC BS are ALL Set Values.

Snapfire SETS to BS 1, CFDS SETS to BS 2, Drone Controller SETS drones BS to the Bearer of the DC.

Therefore a specific FAQ regarding the DC and how it interacts with other wargear is REQUIRED!

Beast was also right about the Ignore Feature, simply amazing!

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Well, i guess pending a FAQ

That's the thing though, there's already a FAQ. The rules are 100% clear on this subject.

The only thing ambiguous is the motivation of those opposing those rules.

Disagreeing with my opinion is fine, questioning my motivation is BULL. You are insinuating that I am trying to gain some advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which I am clearly not if you bothered to read my previous posts in this thread.

The rules are not 100% clear, as evidenced by this very thread!

Shas'o:
First - attack the post, not the poster,
Second - Using the BS of the Controller, is a modifier. Agree or disagree
Third - Unless you have specific permission you cannot modify the BS1 of Snap Shots. Agree or Disagree?
Fourth - Drone Controllers do not give specific permission to override the BS1 of Snap Shots. Agree or Disagree?
Fifth - what exactly is your point that nos is not addressing?

First - The 'attack' as you call it has more to do with Nos' overall posting history, specifically it came to a head in a previous thread, and his previous post to which I replied was him pushing it over the top; it was more or less me not putting up with his particular style anymore. Yes, I know the rest of you aren't privy to that particular exchange, suffice to say, he was rather off-putting then, and nothing has changed since. I have nothing against him personally, and I'm sure he is indeed a decent Chap, just a disagreeable one on internet forums.

Second - Agree (though GW's use of grammar is appalling, replacing is not modifying, regardless of whether or not GW says it is), with a caveat: The specific things mentioned in that FAQ have nothing in their own rules regarding Overwatch, a CFDS clearly does, and a DC makes no mention either way, while other wargear in theTau Codex does (C&C Node and MSSS). Why would they expressly exclude these but not the DC and its interactions with things like VT and CFDS? FAQ is needed.

Third - Agreed

Fourth - This is where is gets fuzzy, and why I believe a specific FAQ regarding the DC is required; No, the DC itself does not give permission to Override the BS1 of Snapshots, however I believe it does without actually saying so, as the wording for it straight up says that the Drones are using the bearers BS not their own (ever, until the model with the DC is killed), and in the case of a CFDS would indeed be BS2.

Fifth - My point regarding my contention that Snapfire, CFDS, and DC BS are all set values, and as such what order do they get applied in? Set Values always override everything else, who is to say which one overrides which other? FAQ needed. I did include this again in my 'attack' on Nos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

The only thing ambiguous is the motivation of those opposing those rules.

Disagreeing with my opinion is fine, questioning my motivation is BULL. You are insinuating that I am trying to gain some advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which I am clearly not if you bothered to read my previous posts in this thread.

Uh? The only thing I insinuated about your motivation was that it was ambiguous.

Thus implying that I had ill intentions.

Shas'o argument:

"No, the DC itself does not give permission to Override the BS1 of Snapshots, however I believe it does without actually saying so, as the wording for it straight up says that the Drones are using the bearers BS not their own (ever, until the model with the DC is killed), and in the case of a CFDS would indeed be BS2. "

Then it does not give permission to override snap shot.

Your argument is conceded, and your attack reported.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shas'o argument:

"No, the DC itself does not give permission to Override the BS1 of Snapshots, however I believe it does without actually saying so, as the wording for it straight up says that the Drones are using the bearers BS not their own (ever, until the model with the DC is killed), and in the case of a CFDS would indeed be BS2. "

Then it does not give permission to override snap shot.

Your argument is conceded, and your attack reported.

Not to stray too far from the topic but...you can't tell someone they concede their position. They can concede if they wish but it's not really your choice.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

Fourth - This is where is gets fuzzy, and why I believe a specific FAQ regarding the DC is required; No, the DC itself does not give permission to Override the BS1 of Snapshots, however I believe it does without actually saying so, as the wording for it straight up says that the Drones are using the bearers BS not their own (ever, until the model with the DC is killed), and in the case of a CFDS would indeed be BS2.

Fifth - My point regarding my contention that Snapfire, CFDS, and DC BS are all set values, and as such what order do they get applied in? Set Values always override everything else, who is to say which one overrides which other? FAQ needed. I did include this again in my 'attack' on Nos.

Therein lies the flaw with your argument.

In the example of the FAQ ruling, they use Telion, whose ability ALSO allows another model to use Telion's BS instead of its own (just like the Drone Controller does). So if using another model's BS in that case is specifically given as an example of something that does not work, then there is no logical reason that we can assume the Drone Controller to be an exception until GW says otherwise.

And while there can be arguments made about the order of set modifiers being applied, again with the ruling GW has already made on the subject we have examples of two set modifiers conflicting with each other (Telion's rule vs. snap shots) and GW made it abundantly clear which one takes precedence in this case (snap shots).

So if GW wants to change this, they should FAQ it, but until then, the EXISTING FAQ THEY ALREADY HAVE COVERING THIS EXACT SITUATION IS PERFECTLY CLEAR.

The *only* thing they'd need to do (if they even wanted) would be to add 'Tau Drone Controller' to the list of examples given in that FAQ question. But those are *examples*, which makes it a non-exhaustive list by definition.

tidalwake wrote:Not to stray too far from the topic but...you can't tell someone they concede their position. They can concede if they wish but it's not really your choice.

You can tell them that they have effectively conceded their position through the argument they have presented being shown to be incorrect. This is what I was showing - that because their argument is flawed, and defeated by existing rules, their position has been conceded.

That's not what "concede" means.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

tidalwake wrote:Not to stray too far from the topic but...you can't tell someone they concede their position. They can concede if they wish but it's not really your choice.

You can tell them that they have effectively conceded their position through the argument they have presented being shown to be incorrect. This is what I was showing - that because their argument is flawed, and defeated by existing rules, their position has been conceded.

LOL... You COULD tell them that Nos, but you would just be putting words in their mouth that they actively refute... I think what might be a more polite statement is: "I think I have proven your position to be incorrect." The way you worded your response comes across (on an impersonal forum) as arrogant in the extreme and is obviously not something he believes or accepts... To rail against that as you have done merely makes you appear even more peevish about it and completely undermines your credibility...

Cheers!

So, you contribute nothing to this thread but an attack?

Nice one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, you contribute nothing to this thread but an attack?

Nice one.

Actually, just tryin' to help you out Nos (so people will take your position, which I am beginning to agree with, more seriously)... So you viewed that as an attack somehow? Odd but whatever...

"even more peevish"

If you want to continue with this OT'ness, PM

lol "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" I guess...

I see now. Those who are saying "no" are looking at all "snap Shots", and those saying "Maybe/Yes" are looking at only Overwatch. Both Telion, and the signum rules appear to be closer to the Tau's Signature Systems, than that of the Drone Controller. In being they can only be used in the shooting phase. And still not having access to the full rules for these two items leaves me with this conclusion, alone. Moving and Firing a heavy weapon, or firing at a airborne target modify the BS of a unit as a whole(unless it has the split fire ability) as units typically can not split their attacks. So when a unit moves and fires a heavy weapon then Tellions guidance is of no help as he can't fire a heavy weapon @ BS 5, because even he is reduced to BS 1 in this case. If Tellion has Relentless or Slow and Purposeful then maybe they would have allowed him to transfer his BS to another model. Even if he targets a flyer(remember the whole unit must fire at the same target, with the same caveat as before) and elects not to shoot, he still has targeted the flyer so has BS 1 for those shots. Maybe if he had skyfire they would allow the transfer of his BS 5.

The rules, as I can make out with only partial information, do not seem to preclude transferring a BS modified by an ability that adjusts another rule. The fact that other abilities in the codex in question specifically deny their use, while this one does not, does open the door for this question, and the interpretations of those involved.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
If Tellion has Relentless or Slow and Purposeful then maybe they would have allowed him to transfer his BS to another model. Even if he targets a flyer(remember the whole unit must fire at the same target, with the same caveat as before) and elects not to shoot, he still has targeted the flyer so has BS 1 for those shots. Maybe if he had skyfire they would allow the transfer of his BS 5.

I just want to say, giving Telion the option to skyfire would be amazing. "Shoot it down!"

 megatrons2nd wrote:
I see now. Those who are saying "no" are looking at all "snap Shots", and those saying "Maybe/Yes" are looking at only Overwatch. Both Telion, and the signum rules appear to be closer to the Tau's Signature Systems, than that of the Drone Controller. In being they can only be used in the shooting phase. And still not having access to the full rules for these two items leaves me with this conclusion, alone. Moving and Firing a heavy weapon, or firing at a airborne target modify the BS of a unit as a whole(unless it has the split fire ability) as units typically can not split their attacks. So when a unit moves and fires a heavy weapon then Tellions guidance is of no help as he can't fire a heavy weapon @ BS 5, because even he is reduced to BS 1 in this case. If Tellion has Relentless or Slow and Purposeful then maybe they would have allowed him to transfer his BS to another model. Even if he targets a flyer(remember the whole unit must fire at the same target, with the same caveat as before) and elects not to shoot, he still has targeted the flyer so has BS 1 for those shots. Maybe if he had skyfire they would allow the transfer of his BS 5.

The rules, as I can make out with only partial information, do not seem to preclude transferring a BS modified by an ability that adjusts another rule. The fact that other abilities in the codex in question specifically deny their use, while this one does not, does open the door for this question, and the interpretations of those involved.

First off: When a unit fires at a zooming flyer, the entire unit is not suddenly struck down to BS1. The rules actually say:

Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (as described on page 42).


So only the SHOTS are resolved at BS1. Any model that chooses not to fire is not firing any shots and therefore by definition those shots cannot be modified to BS1 by the snap shots rule.

So Telion's BS is not being reduced to 1 when other models in his unit are firing snap shots.


Second, when some models in a unit move and fire with heavy weapons, ONLY THOSE MODELS fire snap shots. The rest of the models in the unit do not. So again, if some models in Telion's unit move and fire heavy weapons, Telion's BS is not reduced and can be passed onto other models...which is precisely why it is important that this FAQ covers that such abilities do NOT override the snap shot rule and these shots are still resolved at BS1. Without GW's existing FAQ answer, we would have a conflict that would be unresolved.


Or in short, pretty much everything you wrote in the above post was factually incorrect...firing MODELS have the BS of their shots reduced when firing snap shots, UNITS do not.

And more importantly, what does everyone think this ruling by GW actually means?

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

The question is specifically asking if any special rules that MODIFY the BS of a model's shooting attack affect snap shots. They give two examples, but those are only examples (not an exhaustive list), but Telion's ability is an ability that REPLACES the model's own BS with another model's BS, which is precisely what the Drone Controller does.

So it does not matter if the model with the Drone Controller gets to fire at BS10 at fliers, the ability in question here is the Drone Controller, as IT is what passes that improved BS onto the drones. And this FAQ is explicitly clear that abilities which modify a firer's BS DO NOT affect snap shots.

That leaves ONLY abilities which specifically say that they affect snap shots as the ONLY things that can possibly affect snap shots.

Beast wrote:
lol "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" I guess...

Again, OT. PM if you wish to continue, as your "help" is not asked for or wanted.

Maybe I over explained my thought process a bit.


Does Tellion have SnP, Skyfire, Relentless? No on all, correct? So, how does this differ from the Drone controller, and the CDS? If Tellion were using the Heavy weapon after moving, what would his BS be? If the Tau Commander with CDS was firing the Markerlight while Overwatching, what would his BS be?

Now apply those answers to the other model, what do you get? A Tellion upgraded firer at BS 1, and a Drone at BS 2.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Maybe I over explained my thought process a bit.


Does Tellion have SnP, Skyfire, Relentless? No on all, correct? So, how does this differ from the Drone controller, and the CDS? If Tellion were using the Heavy weapon after moving, what would his BS be? If the Tau Commander with CDS was firing the Markerlight while Overwatching, what would his BS be?

Now apply those answers to the other model, what do you get? A Tellion upgraded firer at BS 1, and a Drone at BS 2.

So you are modifying the BS1 of Snap Shots without specific permission?

edit: redacted as a later post dealt with the issue.

 Drunkspleen wrote:

 yakface wrote:
In the example of the FAQ ruling, they use Telion, whose ability ALSO allows another model to use Telion's BS instead of its own (just like the Drone Controller does).

Actually I would argue Telion's case is different since it specifically references his unmodified BS of 6 in the wording of the rule, it could not work for a number of reasons, not least of which is, Telion doesn't have a BS of 6 while his squad is resolving snap shots.

So if the whole squad, except Telion moves, at what BS would Telion fire at?

Sorry for the threadomancy, but I was out of town for the weekend and did not have access to the internet way up in the Mountains.

With regards to the Tellion/Signum FAQ that everybody keeps citing is that each them (Telion/Signum) are utilizing ONE special rule to modify another models BS. The crux of the problem for me is that the wording for the DC and CFDS combine (read as TWO special rules) in such a way as to become greater than the sum of their parts.

The DC specifically says that all drones in a unit that has at least one DC will use the bearer of DCs BS, it does not say may, therefore it is a requirement that they use the DC bearer's BS. The Counter-fire Defence (gotta love British English versus American English) System specifically says that a model equipped with one fires Overwatch at BS 2. Therefore, I deduce that the Drone Controller COMBINED with the Counter-fire Defence System does requires Drones to OVerwatch at BS 2.

I will also say that anything that specifically affects the DC bearer's BS in a negative way, such as Ezekiel's Mind Worm Power on a Tau Commander with a DC would force any drones (assuming there are no other DCs in the unit) to abide by it. For example, if Ezekiel managed to inflict two unsaved wounds on the aforementioned Commander, thus forcing the Commander's BS down to 1, the drones would now be shooting at BS1 in their own shooting, phase, just as the Commander would be, per the wording of the DC. Coincidentally, if the Commander were also equipped with a CFDS he would Overwatch at BS2, even though he is BS1 (which, on its face is pretty dumb, but to me that seems to be the RAW), and I contend that any drones in his unit would also be able to do so. This (Mind Worm situation) is obviously pretty asinine, and not likely to be RAI, however given the wording of all of these special rules combined, I just can't see any other logical deduction to make.

It is these interactions that make me have the opinion that not only does it work the way I contend, but that it needs a specific FAQ regarding the Drone Controller, as it is a bit more complicated than Telion/Signum special rules. If having a DC can become a potential liability (see Mind Worm situation above), then it should also provide the benefits, specifically Overwatch at BS 2 for Drones, and Skyfire for Drones when a Velocity Tracker is added.

For the record, if/when it is FAQed, I would not be surprised to find myself on the loosing side of it, but as it is now, I just can't see it playing any other way given the requirement aspect of it and the unusual wargear/special rules interactions.

I also see the possibility for a split decision on the hopefully forthcoming FAQ, such as by adding the word 'may' to the DC entry (thereby allowing drones whose DC model has been Mind Wormed to use their own BS of 2), while simultaneously making a specific exception, much like the C&C Node and MSSS, forbidding it's functioning during Overwatch, etc.

Interesting argument, I think I'd err on the side of BS1 versus the BS2; the more restrictive versus the less until a FAQ arises. I think this is one of the few times we need a specific clarification on how two pieces of wargear interact.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:
Sorry for the threadomancy, but I was out of town for the weekend and did not have access to the internet way up in the Mountains.

With regards to the Tellion/Signum FAQ that everybody keeps citing is that each them (Telion/Signum) are utilizing ONE special rule to modify another models BS. The crux of the problem for me is that the wording for the DC and CFDS combine (read as TWO special rules) in such a way as to become greater than the sum of their parts.

The DC specifically says that all drones in a unit that has at least one DC will use the bearer of DCs BS, it does not say may, therefore it is a requirement that they use the DC bearer's BS. The Counter-fire Defence (gotta love British English versus American English) System specifically says that a model equipped with one fires Overwatch at BS 2. Therefore, I deduce that the Drone Controller COMBINED with the Counter-fire Defence System does requires Drones to OVerwatch at BS 2.

I will also say that anything that specifically affects the DC bearer's BS in a negative way, such as Ezekiel's Mind Worm Power on a Tau Commander with a DC would force any drones (assuming there are no other DCs in the unit) to abide by it. For example, if Ezekiel managed to inflict two unsaved wounds on the aforementioned Commander, thus forcing the Commander's BS down to 1, the drones would now be shooting at BS1 in their own shooting, phase, just as the Commander would be, per the wording of the DC. Coincidentally, if the Commander were also equipped with a CFDS he would Overwatch at BS2, even though he is BS1 (which, on its face is pretty dumb, but to me that seems to be the RAW), and I contend that any drones in his unit would also be able to do so. This (Mind Worm situation) is obviously pretty asinine, and not likely to be RAI, however given the wording of all of these special rules combined, I just can't see any other logical deduction to make.

It is these interactions that make me have the opinion that not only does it work the way I contend, but that it needs a specific FAQ regarding the Drone Controller, as it is a bit more complicated than Telion/Signum special rules. If having a DC can become a potential liability (see Mind Worm situation above), then it should also provide the benefits, specifically Overwatch at BS 2 for Drones, and Skyfire for Drones when a Velocity Tracker is added.

For the record, if/when it is FAQed, I would not be surprised to find myself on the loosing side of it, but as it is now, I just can't see it playing any other way given the requirement aspect of it and the unusual wargear/special rules interactions.

I also see the possibility for a split decision on the hopefully forthcoming FAQ, such as by adding the word 'may' to the DC entry (thereby allowing drones whose DC model has been Mind Wormed to use their own BS of 2), while simultaneously making a specific exception, much like the C&C Node and MSSS, forbidding it's functioning during Overwatch, etc.

It doesn't matter how many different special rules or pieces of wargear are involved. At the end of the day the question is whether the BS of the Drone Controller model (granted by the Drone Controller ability) takes precedence over the set BS1 of snap shots...and that is it.

Of COURSE if the Drone Controller's BS gets lowered (or raised) these pass onto the Drones in any other (non-snap shot) situation, but that's a red herring because again it is not directly related to the question at hand.

The Drone Controller ability is functionally identical to Telion's ability, and a FAQ published by GW has been written to specifically answer the question we have been arguing about incessantly...we want them to FAQ it, but the FAQ has already been written and it exists.

The only thing they would need to do is just to add 'Drone Controller' to the list of examples, and nothing else would need to be changed in the FAQ wording. But those examples are not exhaustive, so the fact that Drone Controller is not currently listed as an example shouldn't cause people to ignore what the FAQ question and answer actually say, and what they say is: The snap shot BS1 cannot be overridden by special rules that modify a model's BS...and one of the examples given (Telion) clearly shows that when they're talking about modifying a model's BS, they're also talking about using a 2nd model's BS instead of the firer's own BS.

So the FAQ question exists and already answers the question that keeps being asked. Maybe GW comes back and makes the Drone Controller an exception in the Tau FAQ (great if they do), but for now the FAQ is painfully clear despite what everyone keeps trying to imply.

Excepting the fact that the FAQ is limited by a models that have no further special rules that also effect the BS. If Tellion had SnP, Skyfire, or Relentless I wouldn't find the FAQ entry to be a less than stellar example.

As Tellion does not, how is using the BS of a model with a rule that assists in BS for these situations effect the other models?

If Tellion moved and fired a heavy weapon his BS is 1.
If Tellion fires at a flying model his BS is 1.
If Tellion fires overwatch his BS is 1.
A DC Commander with skyfire uses BS 5.
A DC Commander with CFDS uses BS 2 for overwatch.
The Drones use the Commanders BS.

Tellion must forgo his shooting to pass on his BS, so his BS is never going to be modified by snap-shots or the like. So there's no difference between the DC Commander with skyfire and Tellion as far as the pleb(s) receiving his BS are concerned when they are shooting at flyers.

 yakface wrote:


The Drone Controller ability is functionally identical to Telion's ability, and a FAQ published by GW has been written to specifically answer the question we have been arguing about incessantly...we want them to FAQ it, but the FAQ has already been written and it exists.

(Emphasis Added)

Technically, Yak, the DC and Telion's special rule are not functionally identical. In order to make use of the Drone Controller, one must simply equip a model with one, it is always 'on'. In order to make use of Telion's Special Rule, one must make a declarative action expressing intent to use it. Furthermore, Telion does not himself have any ability to fire Overwatch at anything but BS1 (which I believe is the true reason and intent behind the FAQ that so many of you continue to cite), whereas a Tau Battlesuit can, if it takes the appropriate wargear. Couple that with the requirement that all drones must use the BS of the bearer of the DC, and voila, instant rules disagreement. This is precisely why the DC needs it's own FAQ, especially regarding the interactions it has with other pieces of wargear, and what, if any, affect there is on any drones in the unit. The Telion FAQ is, in my opinion, is to vague to properly deal with this particular situation.

On a completely unrelated topic, when did you change your Avatar? I liked the old one better.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:


(Emphasis Added)

Technically, Yak, the DC and Telion's special rule are not functionally identical. In order to make use of the Drone Controller, one must simply equip a model with one, it is always 'on'. In order to make use of Telion's Special Rule, one must make a declarative action expressing intent to use it. Furthermore, Telion does not himself have any ability to fire Overwatch at anything but BS1 (which I believe is the true reason and intent behind the FAQ that so many of you continue to cite), whereas a Tau Battlesuit can, if it takes the appropriate wargear. Couple that with the requirement that all drones must use the BS of the bearer of the DC, and voila, instant rules disagreement. This is precisely why the DC needs it's own FAQ, especially regarding the interactions it has with other pieces of wargear, and what, if any, affect there is on any drones in the unit. The Telion FAQ is, in my opinion, is to vague to properly deal with this particular situation.

On a completely unrelated topic, when did you change your Avatar? I liked the old one better.

Its not a 'Telion' FAQ, it is a FAQ covering ALL modification of BS vs. snap shots. It is written to cover EVERY instance, which means it applies in EVERY instance unless the rule actually goes out of its way to say that it applies to snap shots.

Telion just happens to be one of the examples mentioned in the ruling that IS functionally identical to the Drone Controller. All those other elements you mention have literally nothing to do with the matter at hand, which is: can a higher BS be passed from one model to another to supersede the snap shot BS1 restriction? In that regard, the situations are functionally identical. Telion is not firing, and therefore his BS is not being reduced so we have a situation where a higher BS is being passed via a special rule onto another model which is making snap shots and the FAQ clearly states that the snap shot BS1 takes precedence.

I get that you feel it deserves its own FAQ, but what I am saying (for like the 80th time) is that you have to recognize that if GW doesn't ever get around to giving the Drone Controller its own FAQ answer, there is a perfectly workable ruling already on the books answering this exact question.

It may not be the answer you like and it may not be as specific as you'd like (actually mentioning Drone Controller as a listed example), but the FAQ necessary is already there.


----


And I changed my Avatar back when we did 'Waaagh Dakka' (click the banner in my sig for more info)...but don't worry, my old Avatar pic has not gone away forever, its just resting.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

 yakface wrote:


The Drone Controller ability is functionally identical to Telion's ability, and a FAQ published by GW has been written to specifically answer the question we have been arguing about incessantly...we want them to FAQ it, but the FAQ has already been written and it exists.

(Emphasis Added)

Technically, Yak, the DC and Telion's special rule are not functionally identical.

whereas a Tau Battlesuit can, if it takes the appropriate wargear.

Couple that with the requirement that all drones must use the BS of the bearer of the DC, and voila, instant rules disagreement. This is precisely why the DC needs it's own FAQ, especially regarding the interactions it has with other pieces of wargear, and what, if any, affect there is on any drones in the unit.

The Telion FAQ is, in my opinion, is to vague to properly deal with this particular situation.

Your right, Telions rule is not identical, but in the context we are discussing here it is.

Exactly right, the the battlesuit has specific rules to override the blanket sweeping statement that all snap shots are resolved at bs1. The drones do not have that special rule.

As to instant rule disagreement nope, the drones are snap shooting so resolve at bs1. Remember the previous FAQ, where the old Tau codex said seeker missiles always hit on a 2plus?, it was FAQ'ed to say not while they are firing at hard to hit target what is needed to hit, the 2plus your old codex said or a 6?, guess what it was the 6 yes it is the old codex which is now outdated but you can easily see the preceedent. The interaction with other wargear is moot unless the drone has specific exemptations to the snap shots which it does not.

The Telion FAQ is in fact pretty broad

I agree with yak's logic, but I think that eight points and a system slot is fairly pricey for something that usually amounts to plus one BS on what is generally already a twin linked platform. Faq will sort it out, but until then I think its no dice.

 Phazael wrote:
I agree with yak's logic, but I think that eight points and a system slot is fairly pricey for something that usually amounts to plus one BS on what is generally already a twin linked platform.

Going from BS2 to BS3 while twin-linked is actually a relatively significant improvement: +35% hits. For instance, it's more improvement than going from BS3 to BS4 while not twin-linked (~33%), despite being more likely to hit both at the lower and higher end. It's not like going from BS4 to BS5 while twin-linked, which is only a small improvement (~9%).

BS1 w/ re-roll hits 11/36.
BS2 w/ re-roll hits 20/36 (or 5/9).
BS3 w/ re-roll hits 27/36 (or 3/4).
BS4 w/ re-roll hits 32/36 (or 8/9).
BS5+ w/ re-roll hits 35/36.

Plus, y'know, drone controllers tend to end up on the higher BS HQ's anyway.

Ok, but then you are talking about a support system slot on an HQ model to affect what is likely just two to four drones. Still pretty pricey for its limited effect, especially in an army with markerlights.

 Phazael wrote:
Ok, but then you are talking about a support system slot on an HQ model to affect what is likely just two to four drones.

What? Hard to imagine less than 6. Heard of people doing it with whole marker drone squadrons.

An entire marker drone squad firing at BS4 that cannot split fire is not that major of a deal, plus Pathfinders already do that more efficiently without eating a HQ slot. You would likely be better off stuffing the Commander in a Sniper Drone team, honestly. I guess if you fill out your HQ squad with easy to kill drones, then you are paying 1.33 more per drone to get that increased BS. Still not exactly an amazing deal.

I still really think they meant for these items to work together, but I completely agree that that's not how it is written out in the rules, from a purely logical reading of them.

"Not an amazing deal" is a far cry from "so bad there must be an additional benefit".

A Shas'o with full complement of 14 Gun Drones with an ethereal or fireblade is putting out 42 TL S5AP5 shots. A Shas'o in a marker drone squadron puts out 14 markerlights.

42 SP5AP5 shots kills 5.2 MEQ on overwatch (plus another 1.1 from a 2xPR commander). Alternatively it is 4.7 markerlights - enough to give another 2 units in your arm BS3 overwatch.
A shas'o in a sniper drone squadron within 24" puts out 27 sniper shots, which is 2.5 MEQ on overwatch. If drone controller also confers skyfire, 27 BS5 sniper shots on skyfire will annihilate FMC.
It could potentially be pretty powerful, especially if you use it to chain markerlights on overwatch.

Okay, this topic seems to have reached its conclusion as now we're just talking about the strategic value of the upgrade.

Locking now...