Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Look everyone, you can go around in circles until the cow comes home, but up to this point, GW has been very consistent on how snap shots interact with abilities that improve BS:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.

Now, obviously this FAQ answer references markerlights, which now have specifically been said to be allowed to improve snap shot BS, but beyond the codex actually explicitly saying that a certain rule overrides the snap shot restrictions, you have to follow GW's FAQ ruling above.

So until GW comes out and says that Drone Controller BS overrides snap shot BS1 or the markerlight launched seeker BS5 overrides snap shot BS1, you just cannot make that assumption.

I hope that GW does come out and completely answer these questions, but for now, the only things that explicitly override the snap shot BS1 are weapons/models with Skyfire, the actual models that have Counterfire Defense Systems & the Markerlight 'Pinpoint' ability because all of those things explicitly say they improve or ignore the snap shot rule (which is more specific than GW's FAQ answer above.

 yakface wrote:
Look everyone, you can go around in circles until the cow comes home, but up to this point, GW has been very consistent on how snap shots interact with abilities that improve BS:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.

Now, obviously this FAQ answer references markerlights, which now have specifically been said to be allowed to improve snap shot BS, but beyond the codex actually explicitly saying that a certain rule overrides the snap shot restrictions, you have to follow GW's FAQ ruling above.

So until GW comes out and says that Drone Controller BS overrides snap shot BS1 or the markerlight launched seeker BS5 overrides snap shot BS1, you just cannot make that assumption.

I hope that GW does come out and completely answer these questions, but for now, the only things that explicitly override the snap shot BS1 are weapons/models with Skyfire, the actual models that have Counterfire Defense Systems & the Markerlight 'Pinpoint' ability because all of those things explicitly say they improve or ignore the snap shot rule (which is more specific than GW's FAQ answer above.

but the 3 mention abilities where always resolved before you actually shoot.. where the Drone controller applies constantly regardless of phase/turn it just says "use bearer's ballistic skill" not during shooting phase or during your turn it applies constantly and always.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.

but the 3 mention abilities where always resolved before you actually shoot.. where the Drone controller applies constantly regardless of phase/turn it just says "use bearer's ballistic skill" not during shooting phase or during your turn it applies constantly and always.

Those are just three examples, that is not an exhaustive list. But the FAQ question & answer in general is quite sweeping, the BS1 of a snap shot can never be modified by special rules.

So the only thing that can possibly be more specific than this are special rules that explicitly say they modify snap shooting...the Drone Controller does not say that yet, so it needs to be FAQ'd by GW if they want it to apply.

I still disagree, but can see that the argument is getting circular and agree to table the issue in lieu of a FAQ ruling. Yakface, can we get this on the Tau FAQ compilation please?

tidalwake wrote:
I still disagree, but can see that the argument is getting circular and agree to table the issue in lieu of a FAQ ruling. Yakface, can we get this on the Tau FAQ compilation please?

Already done a while ago.

Snapshots don't change the BS of the model. The Commander is still BS5 while firing snapshots. It's snapshots that are resolved at a different BS, in this case BS2 because of the wargear. The drones use the BS 5 of the Commander but their snapshots are resolved at BS1 because they lack that wargear.

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

Some good points made by both sides. I tend to lean to the side of the fence they would get his bs of 2 for over watch. Even cooler if the charging unit was maker lighted in the previous shooting phase and that unit used marker lights to increase their bs, then look out the units going to be making some saves. IMHO the intention of the rules changing rules we have now for the new codex tau is due solely to keep them from getting into cc where they would get steam rolled by grots... LoL

The two rules work in sync with each other. Rule 1 use bs 1 for snap shots like over watch, war gear say your bs is increased to bs 2, then war gear says drones use your current highest bs of drone controllers in the unit. It's treated as a normal shooting attack to except for the special rules we all know exist in the over watch phase.

Time will tell for sure, but the fans clearing stuff up from a book in January still haven't been put out so we may be seeing faster codex's and slower fixes.

Lungpickle wrote:
The two rules work in sync with each other. Rule 1 use bs 1 for snap shots like over watch, war gear say your bs is increased to bs 2, then war gear says drones use your current highest bs of drone controllers in the unit. It's treated as a normal shooting attack to except for the special rules we all know exist in the over watch phase.

Exept the drones then snap fire, so the BS is back to 1 again.
They could get BS10 from the controller for all the good it'll do them. But as soon as they fire a snap shot, it's down to BS1 again. The controller can boost this, they however lack a rule to do so.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

Wrong. Snapshots don't change the BS of the model. The rule is "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots"

The commander is always BS5. Only the shots he makes as snapshots are BS2.

I think it should be noted for the sake of this argument that the brand new FAQ came out and remove the specific reference to Tau markerlights in the following question:

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No."

Which would imply that specific Tau rules can alter the main snapfire rules.

The drones don't have the counter-fire defense system and as such will fire at BS1.

Example1: The Commander Battlesuit and his drones fire at a zooming flyer. The commander has a drone controller. Drones BS is modified to 5 (similarly to a signum or Sgt Telion) and is then reduced to BS1 for a snapshot.

Example 2: The same Commander and his drones gets assaulted during the oponents turn. They elect to use their overwatch. The commanders BS is 5 (as well as the drones because of the drone controller) but this doesn't matter as they are all making snap shots, which must be resolved at BS1. However the commander also has the counter-fire defense system which allows the model with this piece of equipment to resolve its snap shots at BS2.

they are all firing at BS 5 although their shots are being resolved via the snapshot rules at BS1 with the exception of the commander who has a model specific rule that modifies his snap shot BS to 2.

Is there anything I am missing here?

Option 3:
The Cmdr and drones are assaulted, they now are counted as BS 1, the Cmdr has a rule that allows his BS 1 to count as BS 2, The Drones use his BS 2 not their BS 1. The Drones use a drone Controllers BS, not count as the controllers BS, or modified to the controllers BS.

That is the core of the problem. I can see it going either way. I will play it on the side of BS 1 just because of prior rulings.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Option 3:
The Cmdr and drones are assaulted, they now are counted as BS 1, the Cmdr has a rule that allows his BS 1 to count as BS 2, The Drones use his BS 2 not their BS 1. The Drones use a drone Controllers BS, not count as the controllers BS, or modified to the controllers BS.

That is the core of the problem. I can see it going either way. I will play it on the side of BS 1 just because of prior rulings.

Not quite. drones have BS 5 (same as Cdr), but their shots are resolved at BS1.

A counter argument. If you think that drones in a unit with a commander with a controller and a CDS fire overwatch at BS 2, what happens if the Commander does not fire? The drones overwatch at BS 5? Hey the drone controller says use the commander's BS and a commander's modified BS during overwatch when he doesn't fire is 5.

CDS does not give any bonus to drones. A model snap fires at BS 1 unless the model has a special rule, and only the commander has that rule.

 Happyjew wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Option 3:
The Cmdr and drones are assaulted, they now are counted as BS 1, the Cmdr has a rule that allows his BS 1 to count as BS 2, The Drones use his BS 2 not their BS 1. The Drones use a drone Controllers BS, not count as the controllers BS, or modified to the controllers BS.

That is the core of the problem. I can see it going either way. I will play it on the side of BS 1 just because of prior rulings.

Not quite. drones have BS 5 (same as Cdr), but their shots are resolved at BS1.

This is where I disagree. The book does not say overwatch shots are resolved at a certain BS, it says the models BS is counted as being 1 for the purposes of overwatch. This seems to me like a set value, which the CDS changes to 2, which the drones inherit through the drone controller.

Not to dance too finely around the wording, but if a shot is resolved at a certain BS then yes, my normal BS is 5 but the shot is resolved at BS 1, but if overwatch makes my BS value 1 then the CDS changes that value why would it not pass on to the drones? The precedence I am using for this is that markerlights can boost the BS of snapshots and overwatch. If the shots were always resolved at BS 1 then it wouldn't matter if markerlights brought your BS to 10, the shot would be resolved at 1. Instead, snap shooting makes your BS 1, markerlights (or CDS in this instance) changes that. If your BS is set to a certain number and a piece of wargear allows drones to use that number then I don't see where a rule is being broken. To use a BS of 1 on the drones while using a BS of 2 on the Commander seems like it would break the Drone Controller rule.

I am sure I could articulate my position better, but hopefully I got my point across. Either way I think it is certainly ambiguous enough to merit a FAQ.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

No they don't, the shots are resolved at BS1 the model still has his BS of whatever.

I would say that this needs an FAQ.

The main problem is the ambiguity of when to apply what. During Overwatch with Commander equipped with Drone Controller, CFDS, and Two Gun Drones, there are basically three separate Set Values in play; BS 1 for Overwatch, BS 2 for CFDS, and BS provided to the Gun Drones via the Drone Controller (BS 5 then BS 1/2).

I can appreciate and respect the argument against the Drones being BS 2 for during Overwatch, but I disagree with it, for a couple of reasons.

1.) The Drone Controller is pretty clear about all Gun/Marker/Sniper Drones using the bearers BS. I believe this would extend to both Overwatch and Skyfire (Assuming the model with the Drone Controller also had a Velocity Tracker).

2.) With regards to whether or not it applies to Overwatch (or Skyfire), the Codex does address other pieces of wargear as specifically not working for Overwatch purposes, namely the Command and Control Node and Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite. Given that it specifically says 'No' to these functioning for Overwatch and simultaneously makes no such declaration of restricting the Drone Controller with regards to Overwatch, I believe this opens the door for the Drone Controller bestowing BS 2 for Overwatch (CFDS) and BS 5 when shooting at a flyer (Velocity Tracker).

Ultimately, if/when it gets FAQed, I can see it going either way.

Oh i agree it's not written clearly at all.

 HoverBoy wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

No they don't, the shots are resolved at BS1 the model still has his BS of whatever.

Yay, multiquotes!
But anyway. It says in the rulebook that the model "counts as" having BS1 for the purposes of the shot. If it said resolved I would agree with you, but it doesn't. The model has a BS of 1. Which is changed to a BS of 2,. then after overwatch firing it goes back to BS 5.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Snapshots don't change the BS of the model.

Except they do. The model "counts as" BS1.

No they don't, the shots are resolved at BS1 the model still has his BS of whatever.

Yay, multiquotes!
But anyway. It says in the rulebook that the model "counts as" having BS1 for the purposes of the shot. If it said resolved I would agree with you, but it doesn't. The model has a BS of 1. Which is changed to a BS of 2,. then after overwatch firing it goes back to BS 5.

So you are modifying a models BS of 1 for a Snap Shot without specific permission? The Commander has permission to use a different BS for Snap Shots. Where is the Drones?

 Happyjew wrote:

So you are modifying a models BS of 1 for a Snap Shot without specific permission? The Commander has permission to use a different BS for Snap Shots. Where is the Drones?

It comes with the Drone Controller. The drone controller says that (paraphrasing here, don't have codex in front of me) the drones use the controller's BS skill instead of their own. It doesn't say this only happens in the shooting phase, it just says that they use his skill. If his skill is 5, then they use that. If it is 2 from the CDS then they use that. I have permission from the drone controller to use the BS of the bearer of the controller.

 DakkaHammer wrote:
The counterfire says the character fires overwatch at BS2 rather than BS1.

This means to me that they are referencing the overwatch rules which say you fire snapshots.

Snapshots say the model is "counted as" having BS1 for the purpose of those shots. (RB pg 13)

Because the codex references the rulebook, it says the firing model is "counted as" having BS2, not just resolving shots at BS2.

The drone controller rules don't specify when you check the drone's BS, just they use the BS of the highest BS model with a drone controller. If that model's BS changes, you would have to match it whenever it happens. And during overwatch, that model will have BS2 after all the modifiers.

This is why

I am absolutely not claiming this was their intention with the Drone Controller because it seems very strong, I don't even plan to play this way as I don't really run drones that would make use of it. RAI I believe they do not intend for the Drone Controller to also benefit from the CDS (or velocity tracker for that matter).

Every instance where the BS is modifed has been excluded in the FAQ and by the BRB, snap shots are a set value not a modifer.

The Tau markerlights and couterfire defence system has specficly said you can use modfied BS during snap shots, this is the most important part.

Snap shots are resolved at bs1 rather then the normal BS, therefore drones will be snap shooting at bs1, the counterfire does not change the bs of the wearer all it says is instead of snap shotting at bs1, its bs2. It does not say the wearer is bs2 so the drones cannot benefit from it

MarkyMark wrote:
Every instance where the BS is modified has been excluded in the FAQ and by the BRB, snap shots are a set value not a modifier.

The Tau markerlights and couterfire defense system has specifically said you can use modified BS during snap shots, this is the most important part.

Snap shots are resolved at bs1 rather then the normal BS, therefore drones will be snap shooting at bs1, the counterfire does not change the bs of the wearer all it says is instead of snap shooting at bs1, its bs2. It does not say the wearer is bs2 so the drones cannot benefit from it

QFT

Keeping the fact that every instance (I'm aware of) that modifies BS has been disallowed from doing this unless specifically given permission (like how marker lights permit you to modify the BS of a snap shot) and that the Counter-Fire defense system is a model specific piece of war gear I can quite confidently say that this does not work.

However an FAQ to clear up peoples concerns would be necessary to end the debate. I will eat my own hat if they fire at BS2.

Edit: Spelling/grammar

MarkyMark wrote:
Every instance where the BS is modifed has been excluded in the FAQ and by the BRB, snap shots are a set value not a modifer.

The Tau markerlights and couterfire defence system has specficly said you can use modfied BS during snap shots, this is the most important part.

Snap shots are resolved at bs1 rather then the normal BS, therefore drones will be snap shooting at bs1, the counterfire does not change the bs of the wearer all it says is instead of snap shotting at bs1, its bs2. It does not say the wearer is bs2 so the drones cannot benefit from it

The CDS says

A model with the counterfire defense system fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1

All shooting in a squad happens simultaneously. Commander fires Overwatch. Check his BS, which is 2 from the CDS. Drones also fire Overwatch. Check their BS. Drone Controller says they use the Commander's BS. What is his BS?

At the time you check the Commander's BS for the drone controller it is BS 2. This is the BS used for the drones. If it is 1 then you are not using the Commander's BS.

Put it this way then, as you ignored the first part, where in the rules are you allowed to override snap shoots for the drones?

MarkyMark wrote:
Put it this way then, as you ignored the first part, where in the rules are you allowed to override snap shoots for the drones?

Don't get testy, I didn't ignore anything. I responded to the part that is relevant to the discussion. Also, since you ignored my previous post where I clearly said that the permission came from the Drone Controller. I don't know how much more clear the rule can be.

All Gun Drones, Marker Drones and Sniper Drones in the same
unit as a model with a drone controller use the bearer's Ballistic
Skill instead of their own

When firing Overwatch the bearer of the CDS has a BS of 2. It doesn't matter if the drones get reduced to BS 1. They use the Drone Controller's BS.

If you are looking for specific exception to firing Overwatch at BS 1 for the drones you won't find it, instead you are told to use the controller's BS, which is 2 at the time Overwatch is fired.

Again, since you likely didn't see it I will reiterate: I don't think this was the intention, simple because 5 points to make all drones in a squad double their Overwatch effectiveness is silly overpowered. I don't play it this way. But the strict RAW would be that it works my way.

The Drones don't have a CDS.
It doesn't matter what BS the bearer of the CDS has, they could have BS10 for making Snap Shots. They could pass on any BS value.
The Drones however are still making a Snap Shot, and they have no rule that allows them to improve their shooting with Snap Shots.
Doesn't matter what BS is passed on.