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Hypothetical, You take a Tau Commander and give him a Drone controller and a Counterfire Defense system. The DC lets the drones use the holders BS for shooting. The CDS lets you overwatch at BS2. Would the CDS BS2 transfer over to the drones in overwatch? I can see this going either way.

I say yep - looks good. The wording on the Drone Controller is that the drones will use the bearer's BS instead of their own. If you put this into an Overwatch situation, the drones *must* use the bearer's Ballistic Skill, who just so happens to be Overwatching at BS2.
If you follow Overwatch on the drones at BS1, not only are you breaking the Controller rule, you've assumed that Snap Shot sets its value afterwards - but this would render the Counterfire Defence System completely useless if that were the case.

If this is the case I can see the Commander+Marker drone squadron being absolutely brutal when combined with Supporting Fire. The commander and his drone squadron fire first and likely end up with a decent number of Markerlight hits and then everyone else gets to use Markerlights to fire at higher BS.

The problem I see with this concept is that snap shots are a set value unless you have a special rule and the drones don't have any special rule to help them. The wording of the Counter fire system says that only the model so equipped gets the benefit which is the special rule that allows the Commander to override the snap shot rules. The drones would indeed start at BS 5 actually but as soon as the snap shot rule comes up they would be reduced back to BS 1 again since they don't have a rule saying they're allowed to keep the higher BS.

 Super Ready wrote:
I say yep - looks good. The wording on the Drone Controller is that the drones will use the bearer's BS instead of their own. If you put this into an Overwatch situation, the drones *must* use the bearer's Ballistic Skill, who just so happens to be Overwatching at BS2.
If you follow Overwatch on the drones at BS1, not only are you breaking the Controller rule, you've assumed that Snap Shot sets its value afterwards - but this would render the Counterfire Defence System completely useless if that were the case.

The drones use the controllers BS of 5 to make snapshots as they do not have the Counterfire Defense System themselves snap shots are resolved at BS1. No dice.

My thought was, BS5 commander goes to snapfire because of overwatch down to BS1, CDS bumps it to 2, Drone controller kicks in and uses Commanders BS2.

The codex doesn't say when or how these pieces of wargear go into effect.

I would say the drones fire at BS2.

1) The unit is making Snap shots, which make all models count as BS1.
2) The suit has a Counterfire Defence System, which states it uses BS2 instead of BS1 for overwatch, so the suit instead counts as BS2.
3) The Drone Controller causes drones to fire using the suit's BS, not their own, the Drones count their BS as 1 per the snap shot rules, but it doesn't matter because they aren't using their own BS, they are using someone elses BS, which is currently counting as 2.

The closest similar situation is Telion's rule which has been FAQ'd to not function, but the difference there is that rule says the model may use "[Telion's] BS of 6" and when making Snap Shots, Telion doesn't have a BS of 6, so it's hard to cross apply that FAQ.

I wouldn't be shocked if FAQs come down the pipeline and say the drones are still BS1, but right now, I think the RAW supports them being BS2.

edit: Also that Telion FAQ needs further clarification at this point because it technically breaks the new Markerlights, and arguably the Counterfire Defense System just by existing.

"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

Chrysis wrote:
"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

Drone Controller. "All drones (gun/maker/sniper) in the same unit as a model with a drone controller use the Bearer's Ballistic skill instead of their own"

BS of model with DC/CDD = 2 so all drones fire at BS 2,

Now we just need commanders with Velocity trackers, Drone controllers, and 2 marker drones to join a 12 marker drone squad.. now you have 14 markerlights that can hit fliers at BS 5.

No, the BS for the Commander is 5. He just uses 2 when he Overwatches because of his special system. The Drones may use his BS of 5, but because they are Snap Shotting they fire at BS 1 because they don't have his Special System. They are not a model with the Counterfire Systems, so they don't have any rules to override the Snap Shot = BS 1 like the Commander does.

But when he snap shots his BS is 2 and they use His current BS to fire

Chrysis wrote:
because they are Snap Shotting they fire at BS 1

But that's not what the Snap Shot rules say.

If you believe they do say that shots are fired at BS 1, I would encourage you to provide a quote to support the claim.

Specific > General

General rule: Snapshots are resolved at BS 1

Specific Rule: Drone controller forces shots to be resolved at model's BS

I'm changing my position and saying that drones must still snap shot at BS1. It's just occurred to me:

Snap shots don't use the model's BS at all. The shots are resolved at the modified BS itself, this is true even for the CDS.

So in full...even when using the CDS, the commander's BS is still 5. The drones pick this up, but their snap shots then resolve at BS1 anyway as they don't have a CDS themselves.

The Codex says:

A model with a counterfire defence system fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

This sets the model's BS to 2, which the drones then use via the drone controller. It doesn't say that the shots "are resolved at BS2", if it did I would 100% agree that a shot resolved at a certain BS is not the same as replacing the BS. However, the way the rule is worded I am reading it as setting the model's BS, which passes to the drones via the controller.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Super Ready wrote:
I'm changing my position and saying that drones must still snap shot at BS1. It's just occurred to me:

Snap shots don't use the model's BS at all. The shots are resolved at the modified BS itself, this is true even for the CDS.

So in full...even when using the CDS, the commander's BS is still 5. The drones pick this up, but their snap shots then resolve at BS1 anyway as they don't have a CDS themselves.

His BS isn't 5 though, it's 2 for the Overwatch via the Counterfire Defense System. This BS then passes to the drones via the controller.

If snap shots are always resolved at BS 1, then what is the purpose of the Counterfire Defense System? The support system creates a specific exception to the rule by giving the model a BS of 2 for overwatch fire, the model's BS is then used by the drones per the drone controller rules.

"All drones (gun/maker/sniper) in the same unit as a model with a drone controller use the Bearer's Ballistic skill instead of their own"

Imo means when overwatch occurs they become BS 5, so here they did change their bs to his BS of 5, then overwatch takes place putting them at BS 1, and the model because it says' THE MODEL', at 2. It doesn't say when overwatch takes place then use the BS right? But I coudl really see it going either way.

In my few short months of playing it really seems to me like GW does this on purpose lol

Bloodynecronight wrote:

In my few short months of playing it really seems to me like GW does this on purpose lol

On the contrary, all snap shot/BS modifier rulings have been 100% consistent. GW wrote that rule knowing that. Odds are, the drones would be using BS 1 on snapshots.

tidalwake wrote:
The Codex says:

A model with a counterfire defence system fires Overwatch at Ballistic Skill 2, rather than Ballistic Skill 1.

This sets the model's BS to 2, which the drones then use via the drone controller. It doesn't say that the shots "are resolved at BS2", if it did I would 100% agree that a shot resolved at a certain BS is not the same as replacing the BS. However, the way the rule is worded I am reading it as setting the model's BS, which passes to the drones via the controller.

Except that you're trivializing it by juggling uses of the English language. In one place, the BRB, it may say resolved at BS1. Here it says fires overwatch at BS2. Which is the same as resolving the shooting. However, the piece of wargear -Specifically- states that only the model with the wargear fires at BS2. And, the precedence of order still trumps your methodology, as whether you choose BS5 or BS2, when the drones go to shoot overwatch, they are reduced to BS1, as it is the last rule applied. So they fire at BS1 since they do not have -their own- piece of wargear that changes their own BS.

Were this to actually work, then it would be fantastic, as suits with a drone controller and a velocity tracker would give skyfire to drones as well, and the skies would be safe for all Tau. But it doesn't stack that way.

Shananigans...the owners player specifies the timing of when to count the bearers ballistic skill. Tell me where in the BRB that it specifies a piece of wargear has to be resolved before another piece of wargear.

 Salacious Greed wrote:

Except that you're trivializing it by juggling uses of the English language. In one place, the BRB, it may say resolved at BS1. Here it says fires overwatch at BS2. Which is the same as resolving the shooting. However, the piece of wargear -Specifically- states that only the model with the wargear fires at BS2. And, the precedence of order still trumps your methodology, as whether you choose BS5 or BS2, when the drones go to shoot overwatch, they are reduced to BS1, as it is the last rule applied. So they fire at BS1 since they do not have -their own- piece of wargear that changes their own BS.

Were this to actually work, then it would be fantastic, as suits with a drone controller and a velocity tracker would give skyfire to drones as well, and the skies would be safe for all Tau. But it doesn't stack that way.

I'm afraid I still have to disagree with your assessment. The drone controller rule says that "all gun, marker, & sniper drones in the same unit use the bearer's Ballistic Skill instead of their own." If the CDS makes the bearer's BS 2 and you use BS 1 on the drones you are not using the bearer's ballistic skill. It seems your way would introduce a conflict in the rules. My way has a specific exception to the BS1 restriction from the CDS. If we don't pass that to the drones then we are not abiding the special rule on the CDS.

I understand the position that the drone models don't have a piece of gear that allows their BS to change, but they are getting their BS from another model who does have the rule that introduces a flat change in value to his BS, which they use.

That is my interpretation anyway.

thejughead wrote:
Shananigans...the owners player specifies the timing of when to count the bearers ballistic skill. Tell me where in the BRB that it specifies a piece of wargear has to be resolved before another piece of wargear.

It's not the wargear applying last that causes it. It's applying the set value of BS1 that applies to taking a Snap Shot, as the shot is resolved as BS1 rather than the model being changed to BS1.

 Super Ready wrote:

thejughead wrote:
Shananigans...the owners player specifies the timing of when to count the bearers ballistic skill. Tell me where in the BRB that it specifies a piece of wargear has to be resolved before another piece of wargear.

It's not the wargear applying last that causes it. It's applying the set value of BS1 that applies to taking a Snap Shot, as the shot is resolved as BS1 rather than the model being changed to BS1.

The Snap Shot rule on pg 13 says that the model's "BS is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots", I would say this is the model's BS being changed, which the CDS provides an exception to. The drone controller then let's attached drones use this BS (2) for Overwatch. It is clearly a case of the BS being changed, not the shots being resolved at a different value.

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.""


Thats a pretty simple precedent to follow for this particular argument.

Fragile wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.""


Thats a pretty simple precedent to follow for this particular argument.

Except in the new Tau codex it specifically DOES allow markerlights to affect snap shots and Overwatch. What you are quoting seems like a rule regarding things that increase your BS not carrying over to snap shots which set your BS to 1. That is not the case here as the CDS specifically allows BS 2 for Overwatch, which the drone controller lets the drones use.

 Super Ready wrote:
Snap shots don't use the model's BS at all.

That's not true, they use the model's BS, which is counted as 1 when making Snap Shots.

tidalwake wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model's Shooting attack (Such as Tau Markerlights, Space Marine Signums, or Sergeant Telion's Voice of Experience)?pg13
A: No.""


Thats a pretty simple precedent to follow for this particular argument.

Except in the new Tau codex it specifically DOES allow markerlights to affect snap shots and Overwatch. What you are quoting seems like a rule regarding things that increase your BS not carrying over to snap shots which set your BS to 1. That is not the case here as the CDS specifically allows BS 2 for Overwatch, which the drone controller lets the drones use.

Except that two out of the three examples are using a set BS, or another models BS. Markerlights at the time didn't specify they could effect Snap Shots (because they didn't exist), so they couldn't. Now the Markerlights very explicitly state they can effect Snap Shots, which makes them more specific, so they do.

The rule of thumb is that if it doesn't explicitly state it overrides the Snap shot restrictions then it doesn't.

Chrysis wrote:
"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

I think this clearly explains the situation. When GW uses the word MODEL when it refers to rules, its rules that are intended to ONLY affect that MODEL. I wouldnt let my Tau friends pull that off in a game.

Moridan wrote:

Chrysis wrote:
"A model with Counterfire Defence Systems fire Overwatch at BS 2..."

Do the Drones have Counterfire Defence Systems? No, so they don't get the benefits of it. They are Snap Firing, so they resolve the shots at BS1 because they have no permission to do otherwise.

I think this clearly explains the situation. When GW uses the word MODEL when it refers to rules, its rules that are intended to ONLY affect that MODEL. I wouldnt let my Tau friends pull that off in a game.

Except his wargear of Drone Controller confers it to the drones. One piece of wargear does not negate the other.

thejughead wrote:

Except his wargear of Drone Controller confers it to the drones.

Yes, this is exactly what it does. It confers his Ballistic Skill and only that.

It does not confer any other special rules relating to his Ballistic Skill, hence, they snapshot at BS1 since they have no rule stating otherwise.

The counterfire says the character fires overwatch at BS2 rather than BS1.

This means to me that they are referencing the overwatch rules which say you fire snapshots.

Snapshots say the model is "counted as" having BS1 for the purpose of those shots. (RB pg 13)

Because the codex references the rulebook, it says the firing model is "counted as" having BS2, not just resolving shots at BS2.

The drone controller rules don't specify when you check the drone's BS, just they use the BS of the highest BS model with a drone controller. If that model's BS changes, you would have to match it whenever it happens. And during overwatch, that model will have BS2 after all the modifiers.


So I think that the drones will be firing at BS2.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

thejughead wrote:

Except his wargear of Drone Controller confers it to the drones.

Yes, this is exactly what it does. It confers his Ballistic Skill and only that.

It does not confer any other special rules relating to his Ballistic Skill, hence, they snapshot at BS1 since they have no rule stating otherwise.

It does not state balistic skill denoted in the codex entry. It simply says balistic skill. Also, the owning player decides when a piece of wargear takes effect. You cant say that piece of wargear does not exist.