Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 grendel083 wrote:
The Drones don't have a CDS.
It doesn't matter what BS the bearer of the CDS has, they could have BS10 for making Snap Shots. They could pass on any BS value.
The Drones however are still making a Snap Shot, and they have no rule that allows them to improve their shooting with Snap Shots.
Doesn't matter what BS is passed on.

Sorry, I guess we just have to disagree. The Drone Controller says that you use the bearer's BS instead of the drone's own. They have permission to use the BS of the controller's bearer. They don't need a CDS of their own, they aren't using their BS. It wouldn't matter if their BS was better than the drone controller's, they use his BS. It does matter what BS he passes on because they use that BS instead of their own. I fully agree that snap shooting sets their BS to 1, they aren't using their BS.

To put it more simply:

Drone Controller allows drones to use the controller's BS skill -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Drone Controller bearer's BS is 2 when firing Overwatch with a CDS -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

tidalwake wrote:
They have permission to use the BS of the controller's bearer.

True. But they have no permission to modify the BS penalty of a Snap Shot.

Drone Controller allows drones to use the controller's BS skill -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Drone Controller bearer's BS is 2 when firing Overwatch with a CDS -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Is the Drone making a Snap Shot? Yes or No

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Taking the above FAQ into account, are you modifying the BS of the Drone? Yes or No

Does the Drone have a rule allowing it to improve its BS in regards to Snap Shots? Yes or No

Does the CDS rule allow the Drone to use anything else other that the bearer's BS? Because BS alone is not enough to effect a Snap Shot.

 grendel083 wrote:

tidalwake wrote:
They have permission to use the BS of the controller's bearer.

True. But they have no permission to modify the BS penalty of a Snap Shot.

Drone Controller allows drones to use the controller's BS skill -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Drone Controller bearer's BS is 2 when firing Overwatch with a CDS -> yes or no [Tau Codex page 68]

Yes

Is the Drone making a Snap Shot? Yes or No

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that
modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine
Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)
A: No.

Taking the above FAQ into account, are you modifying the BS of the Drone? Yes or No

Does the Drone have a rule allowing it to improve its BS in regards to Snap Shots? Yes or No

Does the CDS rule allow the Drone to use anything else other that the bearer's BS? Because BS alone is not enough to effect a Snap Shot.

Ok, I will try to go in order here. Hope the formatting works out.

Yes the drone is making a snap shot.

I don't really think that FAQ applies. For one isn't that the one that used to also have the Tau Markerlights in it? They took that out since Markerlights have the ability to affect snap shots now. Also aren't those abilities (Voice of Experience and Signums) used in the shooting phase?

No, I am not modifying the BS of the drone, I am replacing it. I am using the controller model's BS instead of their own BS. This is what the drone controller wargear says to do.

No, the drone does not, but since it is replacing its' BS with a value that does have the ability to take Overwatch at BS 2 then this seems moot.

The last one I am not clear on, we are not modifying the drones BS, we are replacing it. The bearer's BS is 2 for Overwatch (not other snap shots).

Hopefully I got them all, I guess the difference between the positions is that I feel that when the Codex says to replace the drone's BS that I should do exactly that. I am not modifying it, I am replacing it with the BS of a model that can fire BS 2 Overwatch.

The Codex doesn't say replace, it says use.
But if it says replace, use, modify it really doesn't matter.
If the drone uses it's own BS or another models BS, it's still making a Snap Shot.
Use whatever BS you want the Drone must still make a Snap Shot.
It has no rule to improve Snap Shots, and the CDS allows nothing other than the bearer's BS to be passed on.

Edit: When I say "use whatever BS you want" I really meant Balistic Skill. Appologies if the Acronym makes it sound like something else.

Except if you have the Drones shoot at BS 1 for Overwatch you're not using the bearer of the Drone Controller's BS, which would be 2 in the case of CFDS.

This needs an FAQ badly.

(edited for grammar)

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:
Except if you have the Drones shoot at BS 1 for Overwatch you're not using the bearer of the Drone Controller's BS, which would be 2 in the case of CFDS.

Snap Shots don't usually use the models BS, so there's no difference here. Give the model any BS you like, a Snap Shot is still BS1.
What you're trying to do is pass on the models ability to use BS2 rather than BS1. This is not the same as using the bearers BS, and not what the CDS allows you to do.

This needs an FAQ badly.

Absolutely. Shame it'll take a few months, if it happens at all.

 grendel083 wrote:
Snap Shots don't usually use the models BS, so there's no difference here. Give the model any BS you like, a Snap Shot is still BS1.
What you're trying to do is pass on the models ability to use BS2 rather than BS1. This is not the same as using the bearers BS, and not what the CDS allows you to do.

But it does. The rules say the model is "counted as" having BS1 for the purpose of the shots

Added: And Yes, I agree this needs an FAQ. Personally, i'm just going to stay away from these pieces of wargear put together

 grendel083 wrote:
Snap Shots don't usually use the models BS, so there's no difference here. Give the model any BS you like, a Snap Shot is still BS1.
What you're trying to do is pass on the models ability to use BS2 rather than BS1. This is not the same as using the bearers BS, and not what the CDS allows you to do.

You may be right, you may not. I will agree to disagree pending an FAQ, though I do believe RAI is probably on your side of the argument, I just think the RAW is currently to ambiguous regarding this situation, especially given the specific restrictions on other Tau wargear (C and C Node, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite), with no such restrictions bestowed upon the DC.

 grendel083 wrote:

This needs an FAQ badly.

Absolutely. Shame it'll take a few months, if it happens at all.

LOL! If it only took a few months I'll count my lucky stars! Sadly, given GW's track record in the past, the 'if it happens at all' part is a distinct possibility.

There is an FAQ. It's been quoted at you already. You can't override snapshot with mere BS.

I really don't think that FAQ applies in this instance. The Drone Controller sets the drones BS to the bearers, it doesn't modify(such as +1/-1), nor does the Drone Controller make any stipulations one way or the other regarding how other wargear (CFDS, Velocity Tracker) functions in conjunction with the Drone Controller.

That FAQ also used to include Markerlights, which know laugh at that FAQ. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the relevant Codex on hand, but I'm pretty sure those specific rules/wargear covered in the FAQ (Telion/Signum) only applied in the shooting phase to begin with. This is much like the wording regarding the C and C Node and Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite. The Drone Controller has no such wording.

Therefore, a specific FAQ regarding Drone Controllers and their interactions with other pieces of wargear (Velocity Tracker and CFDS) and any accompanying drones is indeed required.

Shaso - reread Modifiers, and note that Set Value is a type of modifier.

Using BS2, then setting it to BS1 complies with both the rules for using the DC BS AND the Snapshot rules.

The FAQ most certainly DOES apply

Signums set a BS to 5 exactly as the same way as a Drone Controller. Guess what BS they snap shot at? That's right, 1.

Yeah...this needs a FAQ i can see it both ways.

Counterfire does say this model, but it alters the BS of this model.

Drone controller says all drones un the unit use this model's BS instead of their own.

Considering it doesnt say only in the shooting phase (like multi-trackers do) i would assume it works for overwatch.

If anything, it needs a FAQ because this feels like a play on rules even if its kinda out in the open on how it works w/o any digging.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:
I really don't think that FAQ applies in this instance. The Drone Controller sets the drones BS to the bearers, it doesn't modify(such as +1/-1), nor does the Drone Controller make any stipulations one way or the other regarding how other wargear (CFDS, Velocity Tracker) functions in conjunction with the Drone Controller.

That FAQ also used to include Markerlights, which know laugh at that FAQ. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't have the relevant Codex on hand, but I'm pretty sure those specific rules/wargear covered in the FAQ (Telion/Signum) only applied in the shooting phase to begin with. This is much like the wording regarding the C and C Node and Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite. The Drone Controller has no such wording.

Therefore, a specific FAQ regarding Drone Controllers and their interactions with other pieces of wargear (Velocity Tracker and CFDS) and any accompanying drones is indeed required.

Tau markerlights have nothing to do with this situation, was you the person that said tau wargear is not subject to the FAQ as markerlights was removed as a example?

Yes the others apply to the shooting phase, but as we are talking about overwatch what other phase rules are you going to be using?. The drone controller has no such wording as it does not specifcally call out snap shot, so there is no allowence to ignore the BS1 of snap shots nor the FAQ.

The counterfire allows the model to fire at bs2 for snap shots, not anyone else. If it was RAI then it would have been mentioned in the codex, as it is RAW as per FAQ and BRB it is bs1.

The Phase that the Signum is used doesn't matter. You can fire Snap Shots in any phase, not just overwatch.
If the Signum was used on a Devastator that moved (therefore Snap Shoooting) the Snap Shot would still be BS1.
The Devastator is using BS5 from the Signum, exactly the same way as a Drone would use BS2 from the CDS bearer.
Both would still Snap Shoot at BS1.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shaso - reread Modifiers, and note that Set Value is a type of modifier.

Using BS2, then setting it to BS1 complies with both the rules for using the DC BS AND the Snapshot rules.

The FAQ most certainly DOES apply

mod·i·fi·er
/ˈmädəˌfīər/
Noun

1. A person or thing that makes partial or minor changes to something.
2. A word, esp. an adjective or noun used attributively, that restricts or adds to the sense of a head noun

Therefore, a modifier would indeed be a +1/-1, not an outright REPLACEMENT of.

The argument for it applying to Overwatch is that there are multiple set values in play at the same time, with no instruction regarding which is applied first. Overwatch sets BS to 1, CFDS then sets Overwatch BS to 2, Drone Controller then sets any attached drones to the bearer's BS. The problem with the FAQ that you guys are sighting is that the wargear/Telion make no specific mention of Overwatch in their respective rules, whereas the CFDS does specifically mention Overwatch.

Shas'O - so not only did you not read the Rulebook section I pointed to, you then broke the tenets of this forum?

The BRB DEFINES what a modifier is. This fits that definition. You have no exception to the requirement that a snapshot is resolved at BS1

CF only specifially allows the bearer to fire at BS2, not a drone controller "borrowing" his BS. THAT BS, no matter the value, IS BS1 because the rules for snapshots require that to be the case

You have no permission to override snapshot, so you cannot. THe FAQ backs this up.

Drones fire at BS1

Well, i guess pending a FAQ the best thing to do is discuss it with the other player before the game starts. I usually point our weird rules like that then ask what they think it means, then we both agree and move on. Nothing is more annoying than positioning your army/models in a way you think is best for the round to then have a random rule mess up your game.

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Well, i guess pending a FAQ

That's the thing though, there's already a FAQ. The rules are 100% clear on this subject.

The only thing ambiguous is the motivation of those opposing those rules.

Because the FAQ is for modifying the BS, not for using some one elses BS.

Though I wonder about Tellios as I am not familiar with him, but from what it sounds like is that he can now pass on his BS1 from snapshots. Could someone pm me the exact wording on his rule, as I will never purchase an Imperial codex, and can't debate further without having the information present.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Because the FAQ is for modifying the BS, not for using some one elses BS.

You use your BS to shoot, whether it's the models or someone else's makes no difference to how Snap Shots work.
And changing one value to another is modifying it. Adding or replacing completely is covered by the Modifiers rule.
And the wording of Telion's rule is "use his ballistic skill". Same as Signums. Same as Drone Controller.

Ah, so in other words his snap shot BS 1 is transferred to other models. So a Snap Shot BS 2 is still a possibility, as his "Counts as" BS 1 can be transferred, but doesn't exactly help as he is transferring a BS 1. Where as the Commander is transferring a BS 2. I thought Signums simply gave a BS 5 in the shooting phase?

It definitely needs an FAQ as it can legitimately be read either way.

Doesn't matter what BS is being passed on. Can pass on 10 if you like. Making a Snap Shot is BS1 regardless of what BS the model has, or gets.
The only way to improve the BS of a Snap Shot is if the Drone controller past on the rules of the CDS.
Problem is it doesn't. Only the bearer's BS is passed on and that makes no difference to Snap Shots.

 grendel083 wrote:
Doesn't matter what BS is being passed on. Can pass on 10 if you like. Making a Snap Shot is BS1 regardless of what BS the model has, or gets.
The only way to improve the BS of a Snap Shot is if the Drone controller past on the rules of the CDS.
Problem is it doesn't. Only the bearer's BS is passed on and that makes no difference to Snap Shots.

And that is the point of contention. You are not using the BS of the bearer if you use BS 1, but you are not snap firing correctly if you use BS 2. Tellion doesn't matter as he can only pass on BS 1 as he is set to BS 1 when snap firing. He is not able to pass on BS 5 as he is not himself BS 5 for those shots.

Also why I wanted the full exact rules for Tellion. I also would like full exact rules for the Signum. It does make it far easier to constructively debate a rule.

I have read the FAQ, as well as the Tau rules. It is not as cut and dry as you seem to believe. It has enough room for interpretation to argue both ways, simply buy reading these rules/entries. With the added knowledge of Tellion's rules and the Signums rules may clear up my reading of the rules, but it may leave it in the same space as now, because as I said before, it looks like Tellion can transfer his BS 1 (remember he is snap firing so is dropped to BS 1) to other squad members.

When making a Snap Shot you don't use the models own BS, so what difference does it make that you're not using a passed on BS?
The model does indeed gain the BS being passed on, but when making a Snap Shot it simply isn't used.

The relevant parts of the two rules mentioned (I won't give out full rules for obvious reasons).

Telion: "...one friendly model in his squad can use his ballistic skill of 6."
Signum: "...one model in his squad is ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

Neither of these can effect a Snap Shot. If using a Ballistic Skill of 6 doesn't effect a Snap Shot, how is using a skill of 2 going to do it? In both cases your using the BS of something else.

Only the BS of the Drone Controller's bearer is passed on, the ability to modify Snap Shots isn't. And passing on a BS makes no difference on Snap Shots.

 grendel083 wrote:
When making a Snap Shot you don't use the models own BS, so what difference does it make that you're not using a passed on BS?
The model does indeed gain the BS being passed on, but when making a Snap Shot it simply isn't used.

The relevant parts of the two rules mentioned (I won't give out full rules for obvious reasons).

Telion: "...one friendly model in his squad can use his ballistic skill of 6."
Signum: "...one model in his squad is ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

Neither of these can effect a Snap Shot. If using a Ballistic Skill of 6 doesn't effect a Snap Shot, how is using a skill of 2 going to do it? In both cases your using the BS of something else.

Only the BS of the Drone Controller's bearer is passed on, the ability to modify Snap Shots isn't. And passing on a BS makes no difference on Snap Shots.

Agreed. Snap Shots do not change Telion's BS, and even if they did Telion is not firing when he grants that ability, so his BS would not be affected when it is being passed on.

There is literally no reason exact same principle applies to Telion's special rule as it should to this situation in the Tau Codex.

Now, GW has sometimes gone out of their way to make inconsistent FAQ rulings (like having failed vehicle DT tests cause a Hull Point to be lost while at the same time saying in general that if a glancing or penetrating hit isn't caused that a Hull Point is NOT lost, or saying that attacks which automatically hit cannot affect zooming flyers, but then allowing Imotekh's ability to affect flyers), so they certainly could come back and give this ability to the Tau as an exception.

But given how the FAQs stand now, the consistent ruling is to say that the snap shot rule takes precedence and the drones resolve their overwatch as snap shots at BS1.

 grendel083 wrote:
When making a Snap Shot you don't use the models own BS, so what difference does it make that you're not using a passed on BS?
The model does indeed gain the BS being passed on, but when making a Snap Shot it simply isn't used.

The relevant parts of the two rules mentioned (I won't give out full rules for obvious reasons).

Telion: "...one friendly model in his squad can use his ballistic skill of 6."
Signum: "...one model in his squad is ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

Neither of these can effect a Snap Shot. If using a Ballistic Skill of 6 doesn't effect a Snap Shot, how is using a skill of 2 going to do it? In both cases your using the BS of something else.

Only the BS of the Drone Controller's bearer is passed on, the ability to modify Snap Shots isn't. And passing on a BS makes no difference on Snap Shots.

This is where my contention still comes in however as neither the Signum, nor Telion's rule allow you to override the BS1 of an overwatch. The CDS does, which changes the BS to 2 for the model, the models BS is then passed on.

However, at this point I have made my case for my position and all we are doing is repeating ourselves. I maintain my position, but I am out of this debate until a FAQ on the issue can clarify.

For those who are claiming this is cut and dry...I think you are being disingenuous as there is clearly more than one interpretation of this rule.

The CDS can true. But the drones don't have a CDS.
And the Drone Controller can only pass on the bearer's BS, not the CDS's ability to alter Snap Shots.

I agree it isn't clear cut, takes a while following all relevant rules to arrive at any conclusion.

tidalwake wrote:

This is where my contention still comes in however as neither the Signum, nor Telion's rule allow you to override the BS1 of an overwatch. The CDS does, which changes the BS to 2 for the model, the models BS is then passed on.

However, at this point I have made my case for my position and all we are doing is repeating ourselves. I maintain my position, but I am out of this debate until a FAQ on the issue can clarify.

For those who are claiming this is cut and dry...I think you are being disingenuous as there is clearly more than one interpretation of this rule.

But the point is, Telion's BS is 6. He isn't firing overwatch, so there is literally no way you can possibly say that his BS is somehow being lowered to 1.

Hell, even if you believe this is a case of two things happening simultaneously, the player whose turn it is (which in the case of overwatch is going to be your opponent) is going to choose to apply the snap shot's 'set modifier' last.


I agree that it should be FAQ'd and I do think there is always the outside chance that GW will make this an exception, but as it stands now I do think it is pretty solidly clear, sad to say, as much as I would like it not to be personally.

 Shas'O...Crap wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Shaso - reread Modifiers, and note that Set Value is a type of modifier.

Using BS2, then setting it to BS1 complies with both the rules for using the DC BS AND the Snapshot rules.

The FAQ most certainly DOES apply

You know Nos, I believe Beast was correct in our previous back in forth (then the back and forth that you and he engaged in) on another thread, you're just a disagreeable Chap! Fool me once, shame on you, I'll be damned if I'll let you get away with it again! You don't bother to address any specific points I made, which were that my contention is that Snapfire, CFDS, and DC BS are ALL Set Values.

Snapfire SETS to BS 1, CFDS SETS to BS 2, Drone Controller SETS drones BS to the Bearer of the DC.

Therefore a specific FAQ regarding the DC and how it interacts with other wargear is REQUIRED!

Beast was also right about the Ignore Feature, simply amazing!

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
Well, i guess pending a FAQ

That's the thing though, there's already a FAQ. The rules are 100% clear on this subject.

The only thing ambiguous is the motivation of those opposing those rules.

Disagreeing with my opinion is fine, questioning my motivation is BULL. You are insinuating that I am trying to gain some advantage by deliberately breaking the rules, which I am clearly not if you bothered to read my previous posts in this thread.

The rules are not 100% clear, as evidenced by this very thread!

Shas'o:
First - attack the post, not the poster,
Second - Using the BS of the Controller, is a modifier. Agree or disagree
Third - Unless you have specific permission you cannot modify the BS1 of Snap Shots. Agree or Disagree?
Fourth - Drone Controllers do not give specific permission to override the BS1 of Snap Shots. Agree or Disagree?
Fifth - what exactly is your point that nos is not addressing?