Like in the title...After reading a comment how "Brothers of the Snake was bad"; I'm interested
which HH40k books did you literary closed and never opened again ??? Personally I closed "Fear to tread" after I fell asleep few times while reading
DarthMarko wrote: Personally I closed "Fear to tread" after I fell asleep few times while reading
Reported for dangerously terrible taste.
Not sure what I would pick. Cain sort of pushed my interest away, but it wasn't "bad". First and Only is pretty stale as well, Christ I hope GG gets better.
It put him on the map for me. I'd put it up there with some of Abnett, McNeil, and ADB's best work. I was actually surprised. I am gonna try out his other books to see if that was just a fluke.
Spoiler:
You're just upset that the Flesh Tearers kill and eat the Space Wolves.
The Battle for the Abyss or whatever it is called is just wtf terrible.
I dont know what book it was but I picked up some crap by King about the SW read one page and then threw at some guy wearing a George Bush for president t-shirt.
JWhex wrote: The Battle for the Abyss or whatever it is called is just wtf terrible.
Quoted for truth. The party of mixed marines from various legions are all neigh unstoppable, and the Word Bearer antagonists are 30% dumber than the worst B-movie villain you can imagine. The worst part is where the World eater destroys a Dreadnought just like that IIRC.
A total BS read. Avoid at all costs. And if you do read it anyway and need your faith in Word Bearer capabilities restored, the read Know no fear instead and watch the smurfs get some punishment.
DarthMarko wrote: Like in the title...After reading a comment how "Brothers of the Snake was bad"; I'm interested
which HH40k books did you literary closed and never opened again ??? Personally I closed "Fear to tread" after I fell asleep few times while reading
Basically most of "Space Marines Battles" are almost unreadable and sub-par IMO (Rynn's World, Purging of Kadillus and Architect of Fate are exceptions to prove the rule), but i didn't even try to read any after "Architect of Fate" - i'm not mouse to "hurt and cry but continue to eat cactus".
As my personal tastes go - everything of H.Zou is far worse than despised C.S. Goto (oh, and so DoW2 - not by him). Also disliked Thorpe's Penal Legion series.
And special mention as "worst WH40k book ever" goes to "Redemption Corps" - like Zou's books, i'd even not looked up "how it all ended" - but unlike Zou's ones, this one is literally BAD writing.
Manned to finish that first Horus Heresy book with Gavriel in it, but it bored the crap out of me and there its no way I would waste my time on another... However, way way back there was a book called Space Marine that was brutal! Same time as a Warhammer Fantasy book called Drachenfel. They were fantastic.
I stole one of them from my school library actually, they were that good.
The Greater Good (most recent Cain book) was pretty much the definition of "phoning it in." Though the cover promises an Imperial/Tau alliance we're treated to Cain and Jurgen going against Tyranids almost single-handed...again. For those who haven't read the books, the idea is that they are Cain's memoirs being edited by Inquisitor Vail, who drops in footnotes here and there. It used to be that these footnotes were quite amusing, but now they just drop in completely irrelevant information that serves only as a pointless distraction and doesn't even attempt to be funny anymore. For example, Cain will say something about how he started firing las-shots at the Genestealers (you can't move for Genestealers in these books) and now a footnote will add some useless detail like "so clearly Cain had his laspistol with him, though as usual he doesn't bother to mention it." Jokes are just recycled endlessly...I fear the series may have jumped the shark with this book (probably jumped the Genestealer, more likely).
I were not amused when Ciaphas Cain chased a Greater Daemon who acted like a Giant of WHFB in how it actually battled things and proceeded to run away in abject terror.
I forgot about Rynn's World, I ended up skimming huge chunks of that and it never seemed to end. It felt like a single-page fluff piece from a Codex bloated to novel length. If ever a book urgently needed some editing...
I did not enjoy Fear to Tread either, although I'm not a fan of Swallows writing style it seems. I found Sanguinius came across as overly soft and whiny, and very heavy on the angelic imagery, whilst the Daemons were childlike and frustrating (possibly unsurprisingly).
The Word Bearers were pretty cool though.
I also second the criticism of the Space Wolf omnibi and 'Abyss.
Flicked through Legion the other day though: that books great.
The only Horus Heresy book I've not wanted to put down was Mechanicum.
The rest was just boring marine fanwank retelling of Paradise lost (within the framework of the 40k universe). Pretty much like EVERY other book about marines. I had some Ultramarine and Space Wolf novels but gave them away because they were sooo bad. The SW especially. If I want to read proper epic norse legendary stuff, I have copies of the Eddas.
Otherwise, only Dan Abnett's Eisenhorn/Ravenor books have stood up to repeated readings.
Void__Dragon wrote: To be honest I thought the Word Bearers kind of sucked in KNF, outside of the opening attack.
They're basically guardsmen. They only really pose a threat to the Ultramarines if they outnumber them.
So Kor Phaeron almost destroying Rowboat Girlyman with a psychic attack doesn't count in your opinion then?
Damn, you're not the forgiving type I reckon
Void__Dragon wrote: To be honest I thought the Word Bearers kind of sucked in KNF, outside of the opening attack.
They're basically guardsmen. They only really pose a threat to the Ultramarines if they outnumber them.
FWIW, it was noted at at least one point during the novel that the Word Bearers were using pretty weak tactics; because they were too eager to engage and rip apart the Ultramarines in hand-to-hand etc. (think zealousness and fervour). I recall the narration describing how the Word Bearers appeared to eschew ranged weaponry and conventional tactics and this cost them, particularly as the Ultras are the opposite.
Edit: I think this idea may also be because of the Ultramarines viewpoint? It was pretty clear that the Word Bearers were kicking ass all over the planet and the Ultras were suffering heavy losses; it just may have been less overt (although it wasn't really a problem for me) because of the Ventanus-perspective.
It goes out of its way to give context to Battle for the Abyss in a meaningful, and in my opinion, satisfying way as well as explains why the Word Bearers were dying in droves in KNF.
I did not like the HH Dark Angels books as they felt to diconected to the main story and no one in them grabbed me.
Not keen on the Soul Drinkers as they seemed to deviate from my view of the 40k universe too much.
Battle for the Abyss seemed pointless and dull
I were not amused when Ciaphas Cain chased a Greater Daemon who acted like a Giant of WHFB in how it actually battled things and proceeded to run away in abject terror
Which one was this - was this the Greater Daemon of Slaanesh who he still has dreams / nightmares about until he dies and only defeated due to Jurgans abilities?
Having just finished Horus Rising I don't think I'll rush to read any more HH books. As usual for Abnett the scene-setting is great, as are the descriptions of fancy technology and alien cultures, but as for the characters...I prefer to see Space Marines acting like professional fighters, not like a bunch of squabbling moody teenagers. I particularly disliked the scene where a diplomatic mission turns into all-out war (a situation which would never have happened if both sides had engaged their brains for a second) and Horus whines about his job being too hard.
Just Dave wrote: I did not enjoy Fear to Tread either, although I'm not a fan of Swallows writing style it seems. I found Sanguinius came across as overly soft and whiny, and very heavy on the angelic imagery, whilst the Daemons were childlike and frustrating (possibly unsurprisingly).
The Word Bearers were pretty cool though.
I don't really recall Sanguinius whining, tbh. He was terrified that if the genetic flaw of the Legion were to become public knowledge, his Legion might suffer sanction, which to be fair there is precedence for (Hints regarding two missing Legions, talks of destroying the Thousand Sons Legion before Magnus came).
Soft?
Spoiler:
He threw his sword into one Greater Daemon, then proceeded to kill the other hand barehanded. Not what I would call "soft".
Though he is certainly in touch with his sensitive side, which I felt fit his character well.
The Daemons coming off as sort of immature was deliberate, the Word Bearer actually notes that they weren't really any different from humans, perhaps even less.
Ka'Bhanda basically didn't give a gak about anything though. Kyriss was just a punk, lol.
Just Dave wrote: I did not enjoy Fear to Tread either, although I'm not a fan of Swallows writing style it seems. I found Sanguinius came across as overly soft and whiny, and very heavy on the angelic imagery, whilst the Daemons were childlike and frustrating (possibly unsurprisingly).
Thousand time THIS^....Opening of the book was epic though, and then yada, yada, yada...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dreamakuma wrote: The Swallow BA books all feel like cheap fanfiction and not actual novels.
DarthMarko wrote: Like in the title...After reading a comment how "Brothers of the Snake was bad"; I'm interested
which HH40k books did you literary closed and never opened again ??? Personally I closed "Fear to tread" after I fell asleep few times while reading
For me that would have to be "Battle for the Abyss"
Blakman wrote: So Kor Phaeron almost destroying Rowboat Girlyman with a psychic attack doesn't count in your opinion then?
Damn, you're not the forgiving type I reckon
I wasn't counting Kor Phaeron or Sorot Tchure in my analysis, frankly. They were both pretty legit.
But this is the same book where we see an Ultramarine get shot in the visor by a bolter... And then he proceeds to blow the Word Bearer's head and helmet off, suffering only superficial injury.
Void__Dragon wrote: To be honest I thought the Word Bearers kind of sucked in KNF, outside of the opening attack.
They're basically guardsmen. They only really pose a threat to the Ultramarines if they outnumber them.
Don't read Mark of Calth cause they are even worse then guardsman...I' don't wanna go into spoilers but let say UM will be bashed a lot because of one ott scene....
I' mean they have the most badasses marines in the Dark Council(imo,) but they always come as wimps...
Just Dave wrote: FWIW, it was noted at at least one point during the novel that the Word Bearers were using pretty weak tactics; because they were too eager to engage and rip apart the Ultramarines in hand-to-hand etc. (think zealousness and fervour). I recall the narration describing how the Word Bearers appeared to eschew ranged weaponry and conventional tactics and this cost them, particularly as the Ultras are the opposite.
Edit: I think this idea may also be because of the Ultramarines viewpoint? It was pretty clear that the Word Bearers were kicking ass all over the planet and the Ultras were suffering heavy losses; it just may have been less overt (although it wasn't really a problem for me) because of the Ventanus-perspective.
What is happening across the planet, aka, that we do not see, means exactly nothing to me. What is written is all that matters.
As written, Ultramarines can take bolter shots to the face (This is actually accurate to the fluff), but Word Bearers do not have the same protection on their friggin' chest plate lol.
Also, this is the same book where we see a Daemon Prince throw a 316 ton Shadowsword with enough force to destroy it, then with a push it destroys the fortified walls of a bunker. Then Ventanus jumps on its head and stabs it. One dead Daemon Prince.
Coolyo294 wrote: I really can't stand many of the Space Marine Battle novels, most significantly Fall of Damnos and The Siege of Castellax.
Wow im suprised by your second choice, I really enjoyed that book.
Gave you a true sense of just how evil the CSM are.
I feel like it made the Iron Warriors too cartoonishly evil. Warsmith Honsou felt far more evil than any of the Iron Warriors in the book and he didn't need to pointlessly murder a slave every five seconds to do so.
I guess I must be the only fan of the Space Marines Battle Novels. I have the entire collection so far and yes, my two "sucky books" are the Siege of Castelax and The Purging of Kallidus.
The first because the Iron Warriors were complete idiots. I'm a fanboy of the IoM, I admit, a complete fanboy, but when I read CSM stuff, I want villains, not... cartoonish villains like Coolyo294 said.
TPOK because... I don't remember any of it. I was browsing the books at my FLGS and discovered this book I had no memory of reading, something that surprised me because I was sure I had all the books released so far. When I don't even remember owning a book, that's bad... really bad Edit: I discovered I did read it later on, when I found out it was the one with the funny banter between Ghazghkull and the Bad Moons clan warboss only good part of that book.
I've tried to be selective about what I read so I haven't read too many clunkers.
Salamander was atrocious. Only book I could not bear myself to finish. And it was my only reading material on a 10 hour flight, I still could not bring myself to continue reading.
A book that I finished because I was hoping it would get better was Angel of Fire. The worst possible retelling of the Macharian Crusade. I'm going to pretend that book never happened and will steer clear of the follow ups. William King is just awful.
Purge of Kadillus was pretty boring. The only actor with some kind of character had a rather short show up and the story itself was boring as hell. Thank god the authors next DA book was good.
Just Dave wrote: FWIW, it was noted at at least one point during the novel that the Word Bearers were using pretty weak tactics; because they were too eager to engage and rip apart the Ultramarines in hand-to-hand etc. (think zealousness and fervour). I recall the narration describing how the Word Bearers appeared to eschew ranged weaponry and conventional tactics and this cost them, particularly as the Ultras are the opposite.
Edit: I think this idea may also be because of the Ultramarines viewpoint? It was pretty clear that the Word Bearers were kicking ass all over the planet and the Ultras were suffering heavy losses; it just may have been less overt (although it wasn't really a problem for me) because of the Ventanus-perspective.
What is happening across the planet, aka, that we do not see, means exactly nothing to me. What is written is all that matters.
As written, Ultramarines can take bolter shots to the face (This is actually accurate to the fluff), but Word Bearers do not have the same protection on their friggin' chest plate lol.
Also, this is the same book where we see a Daemon Prince throw a 316 ton Shadowsword with enough force to destroy it, then with a push it destroys the fortified walls of a bunker. Then Ventanus jumps on its head and stabs it. One dead Daemon Prince.
Aye the death of the daemon prince pissed me off immensly, as did the faulty chest plate issue. I did however like the scene where the WB terminator is blasted to bits by an autocannon. Tabletopwise thats not very likely to happen, but I do like that the AC is shown as an extremely destructive weapon, meant for taking out armour.
That being said, I still like this book a lot better than Battle for the Abyss.
Oh another one that sucked more than being a double armamputee with an itchy ass must be Descent of Angels. Total snoozefest that one.
Just Dave wrote: FWIW, it was noted at at least one point during the novel that the Word Bearers were using pretty weak tactics; because they were too eager to engage and rip apart the Ultramarines in hand-to-hand etc. (think zealousness and fervour). I recall the narration describing how the Word Bearers appeared to eschew ranged weaponry and conventional tactics and this cost them, particularly as the Ultras are the opposite.
Edit: I think this idea may also be because of the Ultramarines viewpoint? It was pretty clear that the Word Bearers were kicking ass all over the planet and the Ultras were suffering heavy losses; it just may have been less overt (although it wasn't really a problem for me) because of the Ventanus-perspective.
What is happening across the planet, aka, that we do not see, means exactly nothing to me. What is written is all that matters.
As written, Ultramarines can take bolter shots to the face (This is actually accurate to the fluff), but Word Bearers do not have the same protection on their friggin' chest plate lol.
Also, this is the same book where we see a Daemon Prince throw a 316 ton Shadowsword with enough force to destroy it, then with a push it destroys the fortified walls of a bunker. Then Ventanus jumps on its head and stabs it. One dead Daemon Prince.
Aye the death of the daemon prince pissed me off immensly, as did the faulty chest plate issue. I did however like the scene where the WB terminator is blasted to bits by an autocannon. Tabletopwise thats not very likely to happen, but I do like that the AC is shown as an extremely destructive weapon, meant for taking out armour.
That being said, I still like this book a lot better than Battle for the Abyss.
Oh another one that sucked more than being a double armamputee with an itchy ass must be Descent of Angels. Total snoozefest that one.
The Space Marine Battle series ones are pretty bad for me too, although Helsreach was good. I think I read Helsreach first and keep buying them thinking they will all be that good.
Worst book overall for me was the 2nd Space Wolf Omnibus, I put it down at one point in frustration and never bothered picking it up again.
@OP: I have to ask about Fear to Tread. If you knew you didn't like the author and you didn't like the subject matter, why did you bother with it? Just trying to get the HH series in it's entirety?
Darth Bob wrote: Anything by C.S. Goto, as cliche as that sounds.
How about Phil Kelly and Matt Ward? They ain't exactly literary geniuses. I also view whatever the pale nerd Gav Thorpe writes with deep skepticism. Hehe but CS. Multilaser holds a deep hatred for any who loves the Eldar.
Jimsolo wrote:Someone bought me the Soul Drinkers omnibus as a gift, but I never managed to finish the first novel.
I also couldn't finish Mechanicum.
That being said, I can't say whether or not they SUCKED, since I never finished them. They might have gotten better, I just couldn't finish.
Agreed, it was hard for me to finish Soul Drinker, but I'm glad I did. There are a couple of neat scenes, mainly those involving the Mechanicus, or taking place ona Daemon world. That said, I doubt I would read it again.
Beaviz81 wrote:
Darth Bob wrote: Anything by C.S. Goto, as cliche as that sounds.
How about Phil Kelly and Matt Ward? They ain't exactly literary geniuses. I also view whatever the pale nerd Gav Thorpe writes with deep skepticism. Hehe but CS. Multilaser holds a deep hatred for any who loves the Eldar.
I was unaware that Phil Kelly and Matt Ward wrote novels?
Darth Bob wrote: Anything by C.S. Goto, as cliche as that sounds.
How about Phil Kelly and Matt Ward? They ain't exactly literary geniuses. I also view whatever the pale nerd Gav Thorpe writes with deep skepticism. Hehe but CS. Multilaser holds a deep hatred for any who loves the Eldar.
Well, first of all, they don't write novels. Second, even if they did, their writing abilities have no bearing on C.S. Goto's writing; whose writing inspires hatred in anyone who has even the slightest respect for 40k literature. Khorne Sorcerers, back-flipping Terminators, braying Necrons and Tyranids, Multilasers everywhere, and Eldar vehicles seemingly weak to rocks and sticks are just a brief taste of his idiocy. Third, I don't know how you can compare Phil Kelly to Mat Ward as far as ineptitude for writing fluff material, but I suppose that's a discussion for another topic.
Darth Bob wrote: Anything by C.S. Goto, as cliche as that sounds.
How about Phil Kelly and Matt Ward? They ain't exactly literary geniuses. I also view whatever the pale nerd Gav Thorpe writes with deep skepticism. Hehe but CS. Multilaser holds a deep hatred for any who loves the Eldar.
Well, first of all, they don't write novels. Second, even if they did, their writing abilities have no bearing on C.S. Goto's writing; whose writing inspires hatred in anyone who has even the slightest respect for 40k literature. Khorne Sorcerers, back-flipping Terminators, braying Necrons and Tyranids, Multilasers everywhere, and Eldar vehicles seemingly weak to rocks and sticks are just a brief taste of his idiocy. Third, I don't know how you can compare Phil Kelly to Mat Ward as far as ineptitude for writing fluff material, but I suppose that's a discussion for another topic.
How I can compare them is to compare worst vs worse. That's how horrid their codexes are. They should both go to an inner circle in hell for that.
Of the HH books, Descent of Angels was probably the one I liked the least. It seemed to go nowhere and wasn't really connected to the other books in any way. Mechanicum was probably the slowest read for me, but it finally picked up and grabbed my attention about 2/3 of the way through.
The only book I started to read but couldn't finish was the first Armageddon book by Mike Green. Awful bolter-porn doesn't even begin to describe it.
Another awful book (that I actually finished) was the first Salamanders book. About 80 stranded Marines versus 100,000+ Orks that apparently forgot their cannons and armour and only bothered to take pistols and knives. If Orks were that much of a joke, they would have been wiped out a loooong time ago.
Mechanicum was a stand-out for me, I think there was one or two Space Marines in the entire thing, a recipe for something other than bolter-porn macho crap. Descent of Angels and Fulgrim are the most painful for me so far.
In my opinion, all the Black Library writers are pretty average. They write well, and have excellent grammar. They are very descriptive, and I suppose that's what most people look for in a Black Library novel. But their effort lacks ambition. These are tales of war, where men and women fight desperate battles, in which friends and family die, where morals and emotions run high, where humanity wages everything they own and have fought for in gambles of life and death. For such tales like this, the BL authors style of writing lacks perceived effort.
Grammar, and proper writing is important to me in books, but the ability to draw in the reader, to make them invest their emotions into a book, to make them at least care a bit about the protagonist, antagonist, or any other character and what happens to them in the story stands higher on my list of priorities. That's how you tell if a tale is good and if the writer is good. For me, 40K stories are just something for me to pass the time with, something I take out when waiting for someone, resting in the park on my lunch break, or waiting for the doctor. It's not a book I'd take out and read in bed until I'm sleepy.
Battle for the Abyss was quite boring. Death of Antigonus just adds to an already mediocre series, you could see every plot twist coming from a mile away.
LoneLictor wrote:Mechanicum was terrible, Just godawful. I could not finish it.
Why not?
Kid Kyoto's review explains it better than I could.
Kid Kyoto wrote:In Games Workshop's Warhammer 40k universe the Adeptus Mechanicus is a mysterious organization of tech priests who worship knowledge and consider technology the divine creations of the Machine God. Mechanicum is supposed to give the history of this organization and reveal its secrets.
It's not worth reading.
The book has two main plots, the first is a young Adept named Dalia's quest for the Dragon of Mars, the second is the brewing civil war among the various forge cities and warrior orders of Mars.
The first two hundred pages of this book are spent trying to bore the reader to death as mysterious tech priest and mighty Titan pilots argue the finer points of Machine God theology and parliamentary procedure. Meanwhile Dalia quickly becomes an irritating Mary Sue character with ill-defined magical powers and a great destiny. Somewhere around page 200 forbidden vaults are opened, the forces of Chaos are unleashed and the action picks up. For a couple of pages. Then we're back to hearing about Dalia's romantic crushes, the proper way to wire a psychic chair and the difficulties of securing a wireless network from demonic computer viruses. It's not until page 300 or so that Dalia gets around to starting her quest, an epic struggle that involves not only a long boring train ride, but also a long boring car ride. There's also a giant robot attack but Dalia's magic powers deal with that before anyone can get too interested.
The civil war, when it finally does come is a confusing mess of Latin names and obscure references to long out of print GW games. If you don't know the difference between a Reaver Titan and a Warlord don't even bother trying to follow it.
Some of GW's writers like Ian Watson, Dan Abnett and Kim (Jack Yeovil) Newman have tremendous skills in using the English language to make the mundane seem mysterious, McNeill does the opposite. His references to maglev trains, wireless networks and fiber optics makes the ancient tech priests of Mars seem about as exciting as my cable company.
Even for fans of the Horus Heresy series there just isn't much here. Mars falls to chaos is about all you need to know if you're following the larger story.
Void__Dragon wrote: I told Blax on Skype apparently some people don't like Mechanicum.
He said: "Apparently some people also like Legion. Some people just want to watch the world burn Shane."
I don't like Legion either. The Alpha Legion's sooper sphesshul tactics, combined with the fact that they fought for Horus because they wanted him to lose, sours the novel. Its a shame, because its well written and the characters are nicely done, but the plot is just... unpleasant.
@OP: I have to ask about Fear to Tread. If you knew you didn't like the author and you didn't like the subject matter, why did you bother with it? Just trying to get the HH series in it's entirety?
I'm a heresy junkie and I wanted to see how Sanguinius will be portayed...
It goes out of its way to give context to Battle for the Abyss in a meaningful, and in my opinion, satisfying way as well as explains why the Word Bearers were dying in droves in KNF.
Even if Betrayer was the greatest sci fi ever written it would not change the fact that Battle for the Abyss is among the worst.
The Dalia parts of the former were tiring occasionally, but I still loved the novel.
Admittedly, it was the first HH novel I read; which probably influences my view somewhat, but I disagree with KK's criticisms nonetheless.
I loved Legion, but found Mechanicum about as tedious as Kid Kyoto did.
Apparently, there are some novels loathed by everyone, and some that are debatable. Guess Legion and Mechanicum are the latter, Battle for the Abyss is the former.
Both Mechanicum and Legion are love-it-or-hate-it type novels, but Battle for the Abyss is just a hate-it novel. You can't argue that its good. You can't even try.
C.S. Goto's 'novels', and Battle for the Abyss are the only ones I actively hate, but Mechanicum and Fulgrim straddle the border between like and dislike, mechanicum leaning towards "like" and Fulgrim towards "dislike".
Never read any C.S. Goto, because I hear nothing but hate...
But personally I didn't care much for Flight of the Eisenstein. The only particularly memorable part for me was the whole "Lord of the Flies" and epic fight on the moon bit.
I suppose I was disappointed with it because I was told it was about the Death Guard, and so I was hoping that I'd get some awesome character study of Mortarion, and an insight into his motives for joining the heresy. (Like I got from Thousand Sons with Magnus, or Betrayer for Angron)
I have really got a beef with the eldar path books (not the dark eldar ones, they are AMAZING!!!!)
Path of the warrior has terrible charcter evalution. Im angry, im a striking scorpion, im now an exarch so that first person is dead. Im now a pheonix lord so that second person is dead. I mean we spend half a book on a boring charcter, he might as well progress, but no! He has to totaly disapear into someone who i dont like reading the name of, who then after the other half of the book also goes and disappears into Karandras. Man that book hd a bad story line.
Followed by path of the outcast which i found....tollerable. Slightly better character progression as now its Im a pilot, Now im a ranger, now im a corsair, now im a corsair prince. But at least he is the same character all the way through unlike the scorpion who runs off to be an exarch. It is saved by a few chapters involving harlequins being awesome, A solitare fighting KoS and the interaction between craftworld and dark eldar.
Legion of the damned is just plain terrible... I got about halfway through and then just gave up
Forgetable characters, bad writing, not enough legion of the damned (I assume they turn up later in the book, but there is no way I can make it through that crap)
I also second Fear to tread and No know fear
Fear to tread just lost my interest, but I managed to battle through it, and no know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
Frankenberry wrote: The first Dark Angel book I saw printed, the one where the bio-chemical virus get's released in their fortress and they can't open the doors.
Probably one of the biggest piles of crap I've ever read.
Seriously? I really enjoyed that book. It was the first BL book I ever read
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
seconded - it was boring but I somehow manage to finish it...audio was even worse...
Check for dramatis personae
Spoiler:
Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the XIII Legion
Tauro Nicodemus, Tetrarch of Ultramar (Saramanth), Primarch’s Champion
Eikos Lamiad, Tetrarch of Ultramar (Konor), Primarch’s Champion
Justarius, Venerable Dreadnought
Telemechrus, Contemptor Dreadnought
Marius Gage, Chapter Master, 1st Chapter
Remus Ventanus, Captain, 4th Company
Kiuz Selaton, Sergeant, 4th Company
Lyros Sydance, Captain, 4th Company
Archo, Sergeant, 4th Company
Ankrion, Sergeant, 4th Company
Barkha, Sergeant, 4th Company
Naron Vattian, Scout, 4th Company
Saur Damocles, Captain, 6th Company
Domitian, Sergeant, 6th Company
Braellen, 6th Company
Androm, 6th Company
Evexian, Captain, 7th Company
Amant, 7th Company
Lorchas, Captain, 9th Company
Aethon, Captain, 19th Company
Erikon Gaius, Captain, 21st Company
Tylos Rubio, 21st Company
Honoria, Captain, 23rd Company
Teus Sullus, Captain, 39th Company
Greavus, Sergeant, 39th Company
Kaen Atreus, Chapter Master, 6th Chapter
Klord Empion, Chapter Master, 9th Chapter
Vared, Chapter Master, 11th Chapter
Ekritus, Captain, 111th Company
Phrastorex, Captain, 112th Company
Anchise, Sergeant, 112th Company
Sharad Antoli, Chapter Master, 13th Chapter
Taerone, Captain, 135th Company
Aeonid Thiel, Sergeant, 135th Company [marked]
Evido Banzor, Chapter Master, 16th Chapter
Heutonicus, Captain, 161st Company
Jaer, Apothecary, 161st Company
Kerso, 161st Company
Bormarus, 161st Company
Zabo, 161st Company
Anteros, 161st Company
Honorius Luciel, Captain, 209th Company
The XVII Legion ‘Word Bearers’
Lorgar Aurelian, Primarch of the XVII Legion
Kor Phaeron, The Black Cardinal
Erebus, Dark Apostle
Argel Tal, Gal Vorbak
Essember Zote, Gal Vorbak
Foedral Fell, Commander
Morpal Cxir, Commander
Hol Beloth, Commander
Maloq Kartho, Apostle to Hol Beloth
Sorot Tchure
Ulmor Nul
Cults
The Ushmetar Kaul, ‘The Brotherhood of the Knife’
Criol Fowst, Confided Lieutenant
The Tzenvar Kaul, ‘The Recursive Family’
The Jeharwanate, ‘The Ring’
The Kaul Mandari, ‘The Gene-kin’
Vil Teth, Gene-named
Imperial Personae
Uhl Kehal Hesst, Server of Instrumentation, Mechanicum
Meer Edv Tawren, Magos of Analyticae
Magos Uldort
Arook Serotid, Master of Skitarii
Cyramica, Skitarii
Shipmaster Sazar, Macragge’s Honour
Bohan Zedoff
Representative Macragge’s Honour
Magos Pelot,
Shipmaster Ouon Sanctity of Saramanth
Hommed,
beej138 wrote: Legion of the damned is just plain terrible... I got about halfway through and then just gave up
Forgetable characters, bad writing, not enough legion of the damned (I assume they turn up later in the book, but there is no way I can make it through that crap)
IIRC, the LotD shows up for eight pages and then vanishes, never to be seen again.
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
There are too many characters, with similar sounding names, ranks, and roles, with too little time in the limelight. You don't get attached to any of them. They all just blurr into the same generic character. Then there's the fact that Abnett made Ollanius Pius, a normal dude who sacrificed his life for the Emperor, into a time traveling teleporting immortal. And, last but not least, there's the fact that the Word Bearers decide to throw away their victory away just for the sake of mustache twirling villainy. The Word Bearers try to take the ships intact, despite the fact that more than half of the Ultramarines are still alive. Then Kor Phaeron, who is about to kill Reboute Guilliman, decides it would be cooler to turn Reboute to chaos. This might've been a good idea, except for the fact that they're in the middle of a heated melee. Kor Phaeron gets his heart torn out, and then survives for the sake of maintaining the canon.
Of what I have read, Necropolis is the worst. Not to say that the book is bad (just kind of average), but of the Ghosts series, to me it is by far the most tedious to read, and is chock full of missed opportunities.
I also made a drinking game for each time Abnett used the words "Sheer" and "vast" to describe something. I swear that there is at least one instance where Sheer is used three separate times in the same paragraph.
No know fear was just came accross as the prime example of bolter porn.
I second this. Everyone I know rates it very highly, because it's Dan Abnett, but it mostly bored me. The most interesting sections were the insights into the mind of the Ultramarines Dreadnought. The Ultramarines are a boring legion, so I doubt anyone could have really made me care about their characters, but as a fan of the Word Bearers, I found they were extremely dull in comparison to the way they're portrayed in The First Heretic and Betrayer.
I certainly wouldn't re-read.
seconded - it was boring but I somehow manage to finish it...audio was even worse...
Check for dramatis personae
[/spoiler]
And I only remeber Guiliman and WB from that book lol...
I really liked the Mechanicus characters in that novel and was less interested in the Astartes.............
Frankenberry wrote: The first Dark Angel book I saw printed, the one where the bio-chemical virus get's released in their fortress and they can't open the doors.
Probably one of the biggest piles of crap I've ever read.
Seriously? I really enjoyed that book. It was the first BL book I ever read
It wasn't bad writing I don't think, the story was just crap. I've enjoyed reading the Ultramarine novels, the Ragnar series, even the one off Space Marine battle books. But this one was just so lame I wanted the time I spent reading it, back. The entire book shows how supremely stupid space marines can be and honestly? Should have been written from the perspective of the Fallen they're dealing with, THAT would have been interesting.
Well, I liked Battle for the Abyss, Mechanicum AND Legion ... So I'll probably skew the numbers a bit but here we go.
I struggle to get through anything by Swallow. The first BA omnibus was completely rediculous with BA's killing each other off left and right like it was nothing at all and that whole "Spear of Telesto" garbage. Then he made Tycho a patsie for a no name character that will only ever be in that one stupid book. A freaking patsie. No. Just no. I struggled with "Flight of the Eisenstien" as well (took me a year to get though it - I can usually read two or three novels in a month ...) but I'm not sure why. I know a lot of people really like that one.
Couldn't finish "Fall of Damnos" either, but I did like "Siege of Castellax".
Tycho wrote: Well, I liked Battle for the Abyss, Mechanicum AND Legion ... So I'll probably skew the numbers a bit but here we go.
I struggle to get through anything by Swallow. The first BA omnibus was completely rediculous with BA's killing each other off left and right like it was nothing at all and that whole "Spear of Telesto" garbage. Then he made Tycho a patsie for a no name character that will only ever be in that one stupid book. A freaking patsie. No. Just no. I struggled with "Flight of the Eisenstien" as well (took me a year to get though it - I can usually two or three novels in a month ...) but I'm not sure why. I know a lot of people really like that one.
Couldn't finish "Fall of Damnos" either, but I did like "Siege of Castellax".
Damnos was a hard read I admit, but it was a nice change to see the Ultrasmurfs actually have to work in order to win (or in this case, lose). I bought Abyss, still haven't gotten around to reading it.
Damnos was a hard read I admit, but it was a nice change to see the Ultrasmurfs actually have to work in order to win (or in this case, lose). I bought Abyss, still haven't gotten around to reading it.
I can see why many disliked Abyss. It is definitely very different from the other HH novels I've read. That might actually be why I liked it though. It was a good change of pace.
Know No Fear was terrible, reasons already stated and shonky tense structure. Horrible.
Prospero Burns was even worse. Low point of the series for me. Much of it seemed to be building up to something, then it finished. If I ever read the words "Wet leopard-growl" again, I'll remove someone's lungs.
The first time I read Prospero Burns, I gave up about halfway through. The second time, I got past the halfway mark and was like "ey this aint so bad", and then I reached the last quarter, and it just turned completely awful.
Arcsquad12 wrote: Of what I have read, Necropolis is the worst. Not to say that the book is bad (just kind of average), but of the Ghosts series, to me it is by far the most tedious to read, and is chock full of missed opportunities.
I also made a drinking game for each time Abnett used the words "Sheer" and "vast" to describe something. I swear that there is at least one instance where Sheer is used three separate times in the same paragraph.
I'm a fan of the Gaunt books (Necropolis is my favourite ) but my least favourite has to be His Last Command.
Spoiler:
It's set after most of the main characters have been on a commando mission on a seriously messed-up Chaos world, and so they have to be screened before they can be allowed back into the regiment. But while these bits are quite good, the parts describing what their replacements as the leaders of the regiment got up to just feel like padding to me. The book would have done as a novella-length story. It's obvious that by the end the status quo of Gaunt and co. being back in command will be restored, so I was just waiting for that to happen. Then in the end it turns out the ancient ruins they're trying to capture are actually evil (gasp! Weren't the Frankenstein's monster-like things and swarms of Blood Pact troopers coming out of warp gates a big enough clue?) so after all the loss of Imperial lives and fruitless destruction the Navy just ends up levelling them from orbit. Even the death of a fairly major character is handed in a lacklustre way. And the scene where the characters who were on the raid saunter up and stand around looking hard is just corny.
4oursword wrote: Know No Fear was terrible, reasons already stated and shonky tense structure. Horrible.
Prospero Burns was even worse. Low point of the series for me. Much of it seemed to be building up to something, then it finished. If I ever read the words "Wet leopard-growl" again, I'll remove someone's lungs.
That's Abnett all over. Heavy on the foreplay, but fails to deliver in the end.
Funny thing, most people hate prospero burns because Abnett didn't write the actual burning ?
I agree this book should be called "Chronicles of youg Hawser" maybe, but it was ranked pretty high if I'm not mistaken....
Dan Abnett is a multiple New York Times bestselling author and an award-winning comic book writer. He has written over forty novels, including the acclaimed Gaunt’s Ghosts series, and the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies. His Horus Heresy novel Prospero Burns topped the SF charts in the UK and the US.
Interesting I did get a hint (from well known BL associate) that this book was rushed in the end....
Could be me wanting Dan to be nb1. in everything....*going to wash my face now with ice cold water*...
Abnett gets a lot of credit because for the longest time, his Eisenhorn and early Gaunt's series were the best books to be found in the Ian Watson/William King/CS Goto cesspool of 40k fiction (I never really got into Ravenor, and the Bequin trilogy is shaping up to be even worse).
But we must remember, this is the man that wrote the scintillating plot of Ultramarines.
I like Dan Abnett from what little I know of he and 4Ok fic in general; but perhaps that's just because I'm reading Eisenhorn. As for William King; I enjoyed his part of the Gotrek and Felix series but it DID get better once someone else took over...
DarthMarko wrote: Funny thing, most people hate prospero burns because Abnett didn't write the actual burning ?
People hate it because it's a 300 page love-letter to the Space Wolves.
Though, calling it "the adventures of casper hawser would indeed be fitting. Even the Ollonius Pius highlander sub-plot in KNF wasn't so detracting.
I think people actually hate it because it's a very slow burning tale, and is intentionally the antithesis of the bolter-porn which permeates 40k fiction. Like, whenever there's a battle, Abnet intentionally puts Hawser on the sidelines to avoid that. As a result, the book is more about Space Wolf culture than the warrior aspect which we have seen time and time again. For my part, I liked Prospero Burns, and I think it was far better than A Thousand Sons (which just felt poorly written and cartoonish).
LordConstantine wrote: I like Dan Abnett from what little I know of he and 4Ok fic in general; but perhaps that's just because I'm reading Eisenhorn. As for William King; I enjoyed his part of the Gotrek and Felix series but it DID get better once someone else took over...
Bill Kings get's a unfair treatment here....I too enjoyed his fantasy books, as for 40k - you have to understand that this books were very early stuff ,and you need to have that in mind when you read it....
Funny quote from 1d4chan
Do note that this is as much canon as other BL anti-fluff gak.
DarthMarko wrote: Funny thing, most people hate prospero burns because Abnett didn't write the actual burning ?
People hate it because it's a 300 page love-letter to the Space Wolves.
Though, calling it "the adventures of casper hawser would indeed be fitting. Even the Ollonius Pius highlander sub-plot in KNF wasn't so detracting.
I think people actually hate it because it's a very slow burning tale, and is intentionally the antithesis of the bolter-porn which permeates 40k fiction. Like, whenever there's a battle, Abnet intentionally puts Hawser on the sidelines to avoid that. As a result, the book is more about Space Wolf culture than the warrior aspect which we have seen time and time again. For my part, I liked Prospero Burns, and I think it was far better than A Thousand Sons (which just felt poorly written and cartoonish).
Agree about PB, but how do you mean "aTS" was cartoonish?
Yep it has to many cardboard characters (like in many Mcneill's books) but this was the best book in the serie for me....
I dont think Bill King gets unfair treatment at all. What does the timing of his writing have to do with anything? He is a terrible writer in this or any age.
DarthMarko wrote: Funny thing, most people hate prospero burns because Abnett didn't write the actual burning ?
People hate it because it's a 300 page love-letter to the Space Wolves.
Though, calling it "the adventures of casper hawser would indeed be fitting. Even the Ollonius Pius highlander sub-plot in KNF wasn't so detracting.
I think people actually hate it because it's a very slow burning tale, and is intentionally the antithesis of the bolter-porn which permeates 40k fiction. Like, whenever there's a battle, Abnet intentionally puts Hawser on the sidelines to avoid that. As a result, the book is more about Space Wolf culture than the warrior aspect which we have seen time and time again. For my part, I liked Prospero Burns, and I think it was far better than A Thousand Sons (which just felt poorly written and cartoonish).
So, you think that people hate the book because they're idiots incapable of appreciating subtly or nuance in a 40K book.
That's mildly insulting to 40K fans, but okay.
I'm pretty sure people just hate it because it's a 300 page love-letter to the Space Wolves and no one cares about Casper Hawser.
Blakman wrote: Can anyone tell me if Angel Exterminatus is a good read?
In six words: even when Fulgrim loses, he wins.
My six words would be: "HAVE YOU READ STORM OF IRON?!"
I didn't care for the novel myself; the Storm of Iron references were so unsubtle it was annoying, and completely prevented any anticipation or tension as you knew the fates of almost every character involved. I didn't care for the overly-stretched-out plot either, personally, as it really seemed to drag in places. However, the insight regarding Falk and Perturabo were nice, but that was about it for me.
That said, many others like it, so different strokes...
DarthMarko wrote:Dan Abnett is a multiple New York Times bestselling author and an award-winning comic book writer. He has written over forty novels, including the acclaimed Gaunt’s Ghosts series, and the Eisenhorn and Ravenor trilogies. His Horus Heresy novel Prospero Burns topped the SF charts in the UK and the US.
Interesting I did get a hint (from well known BL associate) that this book was rushed in the end....
Could be me wanting Dan to be nb1. in everything....*going to wash my face now with ice cold water*...
Emphasise mine.
IIRC he was writing Prospero Burns when he first "discovered" his epilepsy; which was why it took so long. It was supposed to be released just after A Thousand Sons, but because of his epilepsy and the subsequent delay, two books were released in between; that's what I understood.
Personally, I really enjoyed Prospero Burns. I was somewhat disappointed by the ending, but the rest of the novel was fantastic IMHO.
I thought Know No Fear was good, but not great. It was disappointingly short and far too action centric, but the pacing was excellent (it really paralleled the speed of the unfolding events, which I loved) and I found novel enjoyable and gripping nonetheless. Far from great, but still worth reading, I thought.
Hm Dave didn't know that ? ty
So maybe that's why the final chapter was rather rushed ?
As for Perturabo - he was one primarch who really scared the gak out of me (mostly from "The Crimson Fist "), but in AE I found out he was infact
George Costanza (read: very frustrated wannabe arhitect )....
Blakman wrote: Can anyone tell me if Angel Exterminatus is a good read?
In six words: even when Fulgrim loses, he wins.
My six words would be: "HAVE YOU READ STORM OF IRON?!"
I didn't care for the novel myself; the Storm of Iron references were so unsubtle it was annoying, and completely prevented any anticipation or tension as you knew the fates of almost every character involved. I didn't care for the overly-stretched-out plot either, personally, as it really seemed to drag in places. However, the insight regarding Falk and Perturabo were nice, but that was about it for me.
That said, many others like it, so different strokes...
So we've got Storm of Iron making the Iron Warriors' fates a foregone conclusion, Fulgrim's "I win at everything ever" thing still going, and that ridiculous plan with the Vohra brothers.
Compare Fulgrim's ascension to some others:
Spoiler:
Perturabo: killed over four hundred Imperial Fists in the Iron Cage and sacrificed that much IF gene-seed to the gods.
Angron: the entire Shadow Crusade (i.e. the Word Bearers' genocidal campaign against the Ultramarines) was Lorgar's plan to save his brother from the degeneration caused by the Butcher's Nails.
Mortarion: gave himself to Nurgle to save his legion from the Destroyer Plague. By "save them" I mean "turn them into rotting pusbags so maddened by pain of having ALL THE DISEASES they don't notice anything else."
Fulgrim: fulfilled an Eldar prophecy.
Angel Exterminatus is stricken from my personal canon. Fulgrim gets it too easy, personification of perfection be damned. His ascension ought to have involved at least as much effort and/or sacrifice as his brothers.
I'm not reading the spoilers, as I haven't read Betrayer, but to be fair to Fulgrim...
Spoiler:
He sacrificed a copious amount of Eldar souls - and souls in general - to Slaanesh, who loves all that jazz.
It did annoy me how all the effort he went to his ascension - such as the Maugetar stone - weren't actually needed in the end though; just made you wonder what the point was.
I don't read any BL book looking for Fitzgerald or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I like all the bits where some big guy in power armour goes "For the Emprah!" and then bang bang bang. There's no epic literature in them, but if you want that look elsewhere.
Though I can't read much of them. They're all the same, except you get different coloured ones in the next book. If there isn't a masssive fight every other chapter then I'm bored. 'Horus Rising' I thought was quite good...
Just Dave wrote: I'm not reading the spoilers, as I haven't read Betrayer, but to be fair to Fulgrim...
Spoiler:
He sacrificed a copious amount of Eldar souls - and souls in general - to Slaanesh, who loves all that jazz.
It did annoy me how all the effort he went to his ascension - such as the Maugetar stone - weren't actually needed in the end though; just made you wonder what the point was.
The Maugetar did help in jump-starting the transformation, and the ritual was already beyond the threshold of no return by the time Perturabo wrestled his energy back. Kind of like a car battery needs more juice to start the car than keep it going.
Tappers wrote: I don't read any BL book looking for Fitzgerald or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I like all the bits where some big guy in power armour goes "For the Emprah!" and then bang bang bang. There's no epic literature in them, but if you want that look elsewhere.
Though I can't read much of them. They're all the same, except you get different coloured ones in the next book. If there isn't a masssive fight every other chapter then I'm bored. 'Horus Rising' I thought was quite good...
Agree - i always laugh when people are overly critical about a book based on "some big guy in power armour "...
Tappers wrote: I don't read any BL book looking for Fitzgerald or Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I like all the bits where some big guy in power armour goes "For the Emprah!" and then bang bang bang. There's no epic literature in them, but if you want that look elsewhere.
Though I can't read much of them. They're all the same, except you get different coloured ones in the next book. If there isn't a masssive fight every other chapter then I'm bored. 'Horus Rising' I thought was quite good...
Agree - i always laugh when people are overly critical about a book based on "some big guy in power armour "...
Just because a work is based on Warhammer 40,000 (or any other property) doesn't mean it doesn't have to be well-written.
Good old Goto again, with The Eldar Prophecy - I can't get past the first 10 pages without lapsing into a coma. I only got it becuase it was missing from my collection.
Of all the horus heresy books I have read I disliked legion
I read through all the heresy books in case I miss anything but legion wasn't great that's the only one though I like the rest. Horus heresy needs more DA!!!
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote: Manned to finish that first Horus Heresy book with Gavriel in it, but it bored the crap out of me and there its no way I would waste my time on another... However, way way back there was a book called Space Marine that was brutal! Same time as a Warhammer Fantasy book called Drachenfel. They were fantastic.
I stole one of them from my school library actually, they were that good.
Drachenfels was a good book, one of the best of the early series years before BL came along.
I can't read anything Ben Counter's written: Heavy, clunking prose, no attempt to draw the reader in like ADB or Abnett does.
Sword Of Caliban wrote: Of all the horus heresy books I have read I disliked legion
I read through all the heresy books in case I miss anything but legion wasn't great that's the only one though I like the rest. Horus heresy needs more DA!!!
The DA books so far have been atrocious. So perhaps more books for them can remedy this problem. However, the first two were super boring and slow.
It took 600-800 pages to get to the seed of the schism and it's never really explained why the Lion is so autistic and can't judge people.
The Abyss & Fear to Tread are awful and skippable.
My problem with the recent HH books are the focus on the Primarchs.
I totally understand that we needed to learn what the CSM's plan is and the Primarchs are a good source for that and we need to read about some of them ascending.
But, the battles with them suffer from "superman" syndrome. Their kryptonite is some brother emo BS.
Yep, they are strong, but holding up a titian strong, give me a break. In order words, the Primarchs are boring to read about in battle.
I think there is a long gulf between where the series is and the battle for terra. I don't know if I want to read a few years worth of BLHH books if they are like the newest 3 books.
Also, the battles between the Primarchs are pointless and flaccid now, since we know where almost all of them when the battle of Terra happens. What are the chances somebody kills RG or Sang or Russ or ... 0% since we already know what happens to them.
Now, if BL changes the story and something new happens, then I'm all in
evancich wrote: The Abyss & Fear to Tread are awful and skippable.
My problem with the recent HH books are the focus on the Primarchs.
I totally understand that we needed to learn what the CSM's plan is and the Primarchs are a good source for that and we need to read about some of them ascending.
But, the battles with them suffer from "superman" syndrome. Their kryptonite is some brother emo BS.
Yep, they are strong, but holding up a titian strong, give me a break. In order words, the Primarchs are boring to read about in battle.
I think there is a long gulf between where the series is and the battle for terra. I don't know if I want to read a few years worth of BLHH books if they are like the newest 3 books.
Also, the battles between the Primarchs are pointless and flaccid now, since we know where almost all of them when the battle of Terra happens. What are the chances somebody kills RG or Sang or Russ or ... 0% since we already know what happens to them.
Now, if BL changes the story and something new happens, then I'm all in
Dude I would kiss you on the forhead right now... This is my pespective too....+1
Majority of anything that involves Space Marines really, its all about stroking their e-wang and its never whether they lose or, its always about how well they win
evancich wrote: The Abyss & Fear to Tread are awful and skippable.
My problem with the recent HH books are the focus on the Primarchs.
I totally understand that we needed to learn what the CSM's plan is and the Primarchs are a good source for that and we need to read about some of them ascending.
But, the battles with them suffer from "superman" syndrome. Their kryptonite is some brother emo BS.
Yep, they are strong, but holding up a titian strong, give me a break. In order words, the Primarchs are boring to read about in battle.
I think there is a long gulf between where the series is and the battle for terra. I don't know if I want to read a few years worth of BLHH books if they are like the newest 3 books.
Also, the battles between the Primarchs are pointless and flaccid now, since we know where almost all of them when the battle of Terra happens. What are the chances somebody kills RG or Sang or Russ or ... 0% since we already know what happens to them.
Now, if BL changes the story and something new happens, then I'm all in
Don't ever read a Superman comic. You'd cry yourself to sleep in a fetal position.
"OMG did Superman just throw a 16-wheeler? This is so OTT!" This is so boring!
evancich wrote: The Abyss & Fear to Tread are awful and skippable.
My problem with the recent HH books are the focus on the Primarchs.
I totally understand that we needed to learn what the CSM's plan is and the Primarchs are a good source for that and we need to read about some of them ascending.
But, the battles with them suffer from "superman" syndrome. Their kryptonite is some brother emo BS.
Yep, they are strong, but holding up a titian strong, give me a break. In order words, the Primarchs are boring to read about in battle.
I think there is a long gulf between where the series is and the battle for terra. I don't know if I want to read a few years worth of BLHH books if they are like the newest 3 books.
Also, the battles between the Primarchs are pointless and flaccid now, since we know where almost all of them when the battle of Terra happens. What are the chances somebody kills RG or Sang or Russ or ... 0% since we already know what happens to them.
Now, if BL changes the story and something new happens, then I'm all in
Don't ever read a Superman comic. You'd cry yourself to sleep in a fetal position.
"OMG did Superman just throw a 16-wheeler? This is so OTT!" This is so boring!
I think you miss my point. We don't know how Superman's story ends. I do know how Sang's story ends and any "peril" the BLHH authors put him in is crazy boring, because:
1) That isn't how he dies
2) The author will just adjust his power level / powers to get Sang out of the situation (just like DC did to Superman in the 60's and 70's)
3) Any other Primarch he is fighting also has very little danger
In other words, these battles in the past 3 HH books are dumb and pointless. Nothing is actually happening that advances the story.
I would much rather have novels about rando SM and troopers than the Primarchs. It is fine to use them as plot devices / prime movers but to focus on a battle that we already know what the outcome is, is not compelling reading especially when the authors' skills aren't up to the task of making such a "painted in the corner" interesting.
The soul drinkers omnibus definitely takes the cake as the worst 40k book I've ever read so far. Got about halfway through, couldn't finish it, never plan to. There's only so much stupid I can take before I just have to stop.
On that note, I've yet to read any deliciously terrible Goto books, and I plan to one day. The universe needs more multilasers and acrobatic terminators.
Necroshea wrote: The soul drinkers omnibus definitely takes the cake as the worst 40k book I've ever read so far. Got about halfway through, couldn't finish it, never plan to. There's only so much stupid I can take before I just have to stop.
On that note, I've yet to read any deliciously terrible Goto books, and I plan to one day. The universe needs more multilasers and acrobatic terminators.
Such a cool cover - damn...I was saving that omnibus for a road trip ...
Redemption Corps - it may have been decent if the book was just written normally. The fact that the book is divided every other chapter normal timeline and future timeline made it awful.
15 Hours -I just felt like I wasted my time when I finished it. I dont like it when everyone dies in a story
Desert Raiders- see above
The Battle of the Fang -Jesus the Space Wolves should have been killed to the man for making some of the dumbest decisions I have ever read in a book
Wrath of Iron. -That book actually caused me to hate the Iron Hands for being complete idiots. The only characters that seem to have any common sense were the Imperial Guardsmen who were increadibly loyal to the Imperium and understood tactics yet at the end they are made out to be the bad guys?
Those are the only books I would actually say I actually disliked.
There are several SM Battles I enjoyed. I enjoyed most of the HH, All the Gaunt's Ghost and Ravenor, Eisenhorn, Ciaphas Cain
- The Greater Good was a total mislead. The title cover showed some bad ass back-to-back fighting between Cain and a Tau, then in the book, the Tau are simply advisers and the cover of the novel doesn't come close to happening. Ever. It was just Cain vs. Tyranids. Fairly boring.
- I absolutely despised McNeil's 'Killing Grounds'. He obviously didn't have his heart in writing the book, GW probably handed him a crap outline as well after smoking something really poor quality. The only decent part of that entire book was the brawl between Leodegarius and our two boys. The rest was a complete snoozefest. Nightbringer - what could have been a great Necron novel - sucked too. It's forgivable because Graham's Ultra series of books are mostly on the better end of the spectrum.
- Dead Men Walking wasn't that great either. Some scrub turns into a super warrior after being drafted, with a painful protracted montage of ascendancy like something you'd see in a Paul Anderson film. The book had a lot of potential being a gigantic playground for a conflict between Necrons and the Guard, but they dropped the ball.
- Caves of Ice was pretty boring too. Lots of backtracking, boring tunnel warfare. I don't know why GW keeps screwing the pooch with the Necron novels (the authors chosen are skilled in most cases, they just have these terrible criteria to be met I'm sure), but it's sort of pissing me off.
Of the buttload of Black Library I've read, those are the only ones I have real complaints about. The rest I've mostly enjoyed and were VERY memorable.
For me, Titanicus is the worst book that I have ever read. Those damn sub-plots had bored me to death.
Now seriously, from diversity of opinions it looks that all warhammer books are terrible. Even ones that I liked to no end... Because of this, I would say to pay to these recommendations as little attention as possible, because there is quite a chance that you will find books which are named here to be at least good.
I think you miss my point. We don't know how Superman's story ends. I do know how Sang's story ends and any "peril" the BLHH authors put him in is crazy boring, because:
1) That isn't how he dies
2) The author will just adjust his power level / powers to get Sang out of the situation (just like DC did to Superman in the 60's and 70's)
3) Any other Primarch he is fighting also has very little danger
In other words, these battles in the past 3 HH books are dumb and pointless. Nothing is actually happening that advances the story.
I would much rather have novels about rando SM and troopers than the Primarchs. It is fine to use them as plot devices / prime movers but to focus on a battle that we already know what the outcome is, is not compelling reading especially when the authors' skills aren't up to the task of making such a "painted in the corner" interesting.
Most of Fear to Tread consisted of Sanguinius either sort of standing around, or in a coma.
I think you miss my point. We don't know how Superman's story ends. I do know how Sang's story ends and any "peril" the BLHH authors put him in is crazy boring, because: 1) That isn't how he dies 2) The author will just adjust his power level / powers to get Sang out of the situation (just like DC did to Superman in the 60's and 70's) 3) Any other Primarch he is fighting also has very little danger
In other words, these battles in the past 3 HH books are dumb and pointless. Nothing is actually happening that advances the story.
I would much rather have novels about rando SM and troopers than the Primarchs. It is fine to use them as plot devices / prime movers but to focus on a battle that we already know what the outcome is, is not compelling reading especially when the authors' skills aren't up to the task of making such a "painted in the corner" interesting.
"I know how it ends, so there's no point in telling the story" is terrible logic. I suppose the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings fight scenes in the movies are complete ass, because "lol we all know how the stories end because it was already told in a book".
"OMG! We all know that Obi-Wan Kenobi is alive and well in A New Hope. Why even bother showing all these fight scenes and perilous situations he's apart of in these movies?!"
No, don't be ridiculous. And for the record, if you read a Superman comic and are on the edge of your seat because "I don't know how the Superman story ends- he might die in this battle!" then you seriously don't understand how comic books work.
The books I didn't enjoy were (in no particular order) Legion, Salamanders trilogy, whichever chaos book the codex cover was taken from, Mechanicum, the eldar path books, sisters of battle audio book (can't remember the title at all. Made that much of an impression on me) , sons of dorn.
TBH I've enjoyed all the other 40k books I've read. Including the soul drinkers and the BK space wolves. I don't care about writing quality so much - the only crime a book can make IMO is to be boring. Which is something that ties all the above books together.
Lets see, I own two copies of Mechanicum and three Legion ... Love those two.
But the HH books I will probably never read again are Battke for the abyss and first heretic ... They felt like an eternity to chew my way through. The Dark Angel books just feel misplaced :/
I moved to another country and felt the need to read them again. The third copy of Legion
I received as a gift from someone who thought I didn't owe it yet.
Betrayer was actually good! I learned to hate Erebus even more and loved the human side of Kharne.
Surprised how many people are throwing out Legion. Legion was great IMHO, loved that book. Only one I would throw on the chopping block for sure would be Battle for the Abyss. Absolute waste of paper
DA's Forever wrote: Surprised how many people are throwing out Legion. Legion was great IMHO, loved that book. Only one I would throw on the chopping block for sure would be Battle for the Abyss. Absolute waste of paper
People hate the ending. And by ending I mean that twist ending of "the loyal marines decide to listen to xenos when the Imperium warns that Xenos lie and and attempt to missguide Humans and join the traitors because by destroying Humanity they are fulling the dream of the Emperor of Mankind but they do this because they are really loyal."
The book itself could be good but that entire end is enough to completely ruin the book.
DA's Forever wrote: Surprised how many people are throwing out Legion. Legion was great IMHO, loved that book. Only one I would throw on the chopping block for sure would be Battle for the Abyss. Absolute waste of paper
People hate the ending. And by ending I mean that twist ending of "the loyal marines decide to listen to xenos when the Imperium warns that Xenos lie and and attempt to missguide Humans and join the traitors because by destroying Humanity they are fulling the dream of the Emperor of Mankind but they do this because they are really loyal."
The book itself could be good but that entire end is enough to completely ruin the book.
I know she's a Dakka favorite, but I haven't read anything by Sarah Cawkwell that I enjoyed or didn't have to absolutely force myself to finish. Point in fact, I never did finish "The Gildar Rift." Maybe it's because I find the Silver Skulls so damn boring...
I also dislike "The Hunt for Volorius" a lot.
Battle for the Abyss should be disqualified. So far it has been the most unanimously reviled BL book ever. I have yet to hear anybody say that they enjoyed it.
Soul Drinkers series holds a special place in my heart as it was my first exposure to 40k lore, however they should really take that box of crayons away from Counter - he can be terrible.
I think you miss my point. We don't know how Superman's story ends. I do know how Sang's story ends and any "peril" the BLHH authors put him in is crazy boring, because:
1) That isn't how he dies
2) The author will just adjust his power level / powers to get Sang out of the situation (just like DC did to Superman in the 60's and 70's)
3) Any other Primarch he is fighting also has very little danger
In other words, these battles in the past 3 HH books are dumb and pointless. Nothing is actually happening that advances the story.
I would much rather have novels about rando SM and troopers than the Primarchs. It is fine to use them as plot devices / prime movers but to focus on a battle that we already know what the outcome is, is not compelling reading especially when the authors' skills aren't up to the task of making such a "painted in the corner" interesting.
"I know how it ends, so there's no point in telling the story" is terrible logic. I suppose the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings fight scenes in the movies are complete ass, because "lol we all know how the stories end because it was already told in a book".
"OMG! We all know that Obi-Wan Kenobi is alive and well in A New Hope. Why even bother showing all these fight scenes and perilous situations he's apart of in these movies?!"
No, don't be ridiculous. And for the record, if you read a Superman comic and are on the edge of your seat because "I don't know how the Superman story ends- he might die in this battle!" then you seriously don't understand how comic books work.
I guess you are being obstinate and argumentative...
Before the Byrne "re-boot" of Superman, writers (mostly in the '60's and 70's) would and a new power to Superman to help lazy writing. For example, how about the time in #45 he smashed up his face to look like an alien (strangely he never used this power before or after), or the time he reassembled the earth from some rock and re-created the atmosphere (which again appears to be a one-off use of his powers), or the time he lost all of he powers yet was able to shot a tiny superman out of his hand (used only once), or ...
Superman has a well celebrated history of writers adding stupid one off powers to save their story. The HH authors are doing the same with the Primarchs.
I can believe you are attempting to use Ep 1, 2, and 3 to make a positive point. There were very poorly written movies and they don't really help your case.
I can't speak to Harry Potter since I haven't read the books or seen the movies. I'm not really sure what point you are attempting to make wrtLotR. Yes, I read the books before the seeing the movies, but the reason I saw the movies was to see the translation of the books to the screen. I'm not really sure what media translation has to do with BL authors added one-off powers to Primarchs.
My problem with the Primarch focused HH books by focusing on the Primarchs the authors remove peril from the story and they have an easy out which is to up the power level of the Primarch to an absurd level.
I would have to say Titanicus is the worst Ive read so far, for me it felt like to much was going on, I havent even made it half way through and its on my shelf waiting for me to return to it.
Im going to give it another chance, now that I know 40k lore better it may not be as hard to follow.
the DE book renegade, it just felt like the author was trying to hard to make them feel evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AL-PiXeL01 wrote: I moved to another country and felt the need to read them again. The third copy of Legion
I received as a gift from someone who thought I didn't owe it yet.
Betrayer was actually good! I learned to hate Erebus even more and loved the human side of Kharne.
Erebus is an annoying character who knows what he is a small man trying to get more for himself.
Have not read Betrayer yet, i read AE and it was okay.
I don't know if I'd say it outright sucks, since I enjoyed parts of it, but I found some elements Redemption Corps to be pretty shoddy. Its portrayal of SoBs was pretty bad. They're written like man-hating dominatrixes, and their Canoness essentially says in the end that she helped to orchestrate the book's events in order to make the protagonist become more awesome. feth, even when I read it as a kid I thought "hang on, Sisters aren't really like this...". It also does this thing where it cuts between different timeframes which was a little confusing.
Apart from that, never come across a Black Library book that I hated. I must be reading them wrong.
Well, I just finished Betrayer, and it could probably go somewhere on this list IMHO. I was wholly disappointed and really wouldn't recommend it (despite it being AD-B, I know).
Ultimately, my general dissatisfaction can be attributed mainly to the portrayed ineptitude of the Ultramarines and Roboute Guilliman, and the unbelievable abilities of the World Eaters and Word Bearers. The book appeared to be a story about Kharn and Argel Tal's jaunty stroll - as they (literally) kick chainswords up into the air to catch with their hands - through the massed ranks of Ultramarines; who themselves are defeated at every turn and overcome through the World Eaters being very, very angry. With the events described in the novel, it would be hard to believe that there are [m]any Ultramarines or World Eaters left, not that there was or should be many of the latter anyway. Likewise, too many times were events described as against the odds or hugely lucky.
Really, my discontent is excellently covered in this review off amazon (although I also found the pacing troublesome, which wasn't mentioned); with this and other reviews suggesting I'm not alone in my opinion:
Spoiler:
I'm a fan of the Horus Heresy series and a big fan of Dembski-Bowden who is one of the outstanding writers in the Black Library stable. His writing here is of his usual high calibre with punchy, immersive battle scenes and some excellent characterisation but the problems with the novel are too big to ignore. Some minor spoilers below -
One of the highlights is his sympathetic portrayal of rebellious primarchs Angron and Lorgar. They are shown to be warm, thoughtful, intelligent beings, neither of whom believes they are evil but rather are victims of desecration of their honour by the emperor and the Butcher's nails (Angron) or doing what is necessary to lay bare the emperor's lies and reveal an, albeit unpalatable, truth (Lorgar). Their monstrousness is more subtly revealed by the barely mentioned but obvious fact that the background to their actions is the destruction of civilizations and the ending of billions of ordinary human lives, which they seem barely to notice in pursuit of their personal desires. The background to why Lorgar and Angron are as they are is explored and draws the chain of events leading to the heresy past Horus' vanity and Erebus' machinations back to the Emperor's own actions more potently in this book than in most of the others in the series.
Battle highlights are the titan battles and void combat. There are also great non-combat plotlines such as the continuation of Argal Tal's storyline in an unexpected but satisfying direction and the development of Kharn. There are great new characters such as Lotara Sarrin the world eaters flag-captain and other human and mechanicum characters. In the great non-astartes characters he creates the author tackles the question of how the World Eater's legion could be kept running if all Angron and his space marines want to do is charge the enemy head on at every opportunity. Its a well done reversal of the usual 'even though they were created to be warrior-servants of the teeming human multitudes the god like space marines do everything brilliantly and just allow the humans to tag along'. How Angron's insistance on his marines having the Butcher's nails is destroying the legion and how they cling to brotherhood as everything else that usually defines a space marine is stripped away is movingly explored.
Unfortunately there are also such big holes in the novel's plausibility that they can't be covered over by the quality of the description and characters.
Running at the enemy whilst shouting wins everytime: The problem is that in highlighting the problem with the Butcher's nails and the importance of the non-marine characters, Dembski-Bowden repeatedly points out that the World Eaters are like rabid animals with poor tactics, poor unit cohesion, poor communications, little battlefield command (what tactical direction there is comes from the human flag-captain), friendly fire incidents, little use of combined arms (eg their titan legion bemoans its loss rate as higher than other legions because the world eater marines just don't work in concert with them), poor battlefield discipline, a high casualty rate etc. Despite this we have to believe they slaughter their way through vast numbers of Ultramarines, the most tactically sophisticated, numerous, disciplined, brilliantly led etc legion, on their own territory. And the reason they can do this? Well, its repeatedly explained that its because they are aggressive. Snarling and waving your chainaxe around whilst charging at the enemy slightly more often than you charge your own battle brothers pretty much trumps any fancy tactical, superior firepower, or other nonsense the enemy might try and will always win the day. And even if your casualty rate is stupidly high your legion will somehow never get worn down by attrition. Its so daft that it seriously undermines the whole book.
Nobody minds being a traitor: The World Eater human and mechanicum characters in the story are all well described and easy to relate to. They are described as normal people doing their various military jobs. In fact, if you weren't told they were working with the World Eaters you'd probably assume they were loyal imperial citizens. There is absolutely nothing to indicate why any of these characters has turned against the Emperor. One of the major mechanicum characters even keeps a scroll message sent to him from the Emperor because it is precious to him and seems to still consider the Emperor as the Omnissiah he worships. Even odder than this is the reaction of a squad of World Eater dreadnoughts who are woken up having, with one exception, been asleep since not just before the heresy but before Angron was even found. The exception is the former legion master, appointed by the Emperor himself to run the legion until the primarch was found and who ended up in a dreadnought sarcophagus because his mad primarch nearly killed him just after his discovery. On being woken they are given a data upload which explains that their new Primarch - whom some had never met -is part of a rebellion to overthrow the Emperor - whom they were all loyally serving when they went to sleep - and they now need to go kill some loyalist space marines. They all just go off and do it without any indication of being troubled. 'Hey wake up. Listen, I know you loved and served the Emperor and were willing to give your lives for his vision of a galaxy wide imperium where humans would be safe and prosperous when you were last awake but we want to destroy the imperium you nearly died to forge, slaughter billions of the innocent then kill him and anyone who serves him, is that OK?' 'Uh, yeah, sure, count me in.'
Legion fighting legion? That's unthinkable before the heresy..oh, no, wait, no it isn't: One of the tropes that has kept recurring throughout the Horus Heresy series, especially in the early books, is how unthinkable marine fighting marine was before the heresy. Most major characters have agonized over it at some point, the news of it happening has been greeted with shock and disbelief, an ultramine character in Know no Fear was punished for having even contemplated the possibility of it. In Betrayer, the author casually drops in that the Space Wolves and the World Eaters had a full on pitched battle well before the heresy, used by Leman Russ to try to teach Angron a lesson. Which rather makes a mockery of the 'battle brother against battle brother has turned our whole perception of reality upside down its so impossible to even comprehend' lament that characters in the earlier books keep spouting.
Finally there is a personal annoyance - In the 40k universe humanity has spread across the galaxy to every imaginable ecosphere over tens of millenia but, with the exception of the Salamanders chapter who are all black, everyone seems to be white (or sometimes 'dusky' (ie meditteranean)). Not only in the novels but the artwork on model box covers, books, posters or the painted models in White Dwarf every month. Dembski-Bowden tackles this by pointing out in his novel that, unlike other chapters, the World Eaters are drawn from a vast mixture of ethnic types. He points this out immediately before having the only obviously black character, Delvarus, (who comes from a jungle, of course), being taught a much needed lesson in honour and brotherhood by a number of his more noble comrades who, where their ethnicity is described, are white. As one scene in one novel it doesn't really matter but, rather depressingly, it just seems part of the same unspoken and pervasive leaning in GW products. I have to admit, I (JD) didn't notice this bit.
So, the great writing we have come to expect from one of Black library's best writers, marred most particularly by the impossible need to make the utterly tactically inept World Eaters conquer everything in their path and for important characters to be traitors without any obvious reason. Buy it second hand on ebay, don't spend a tenner on it new.
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy
What changes are those?
For me, it's the hardback-to-paperback change, the changes to the "coming soon" section so that it will only cover products a week in advance, and the increasing number of limited edition or availability/format items and novellas.
Just Dave wrote: Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus
What was your problem with Angel Exterminatus?
Foremost the heavy handed, and overly numerous, Storm of Iron references.
I feel they robbed the book of tension, as you knew what their fate of certain individuals would be.
Spoiler:
So when Forrix was getting bombarded by his own men, there was no sense of peril: you knew he'd somehow survive (and coincidentally be the only one to do so).
Similiarly, how many major or captain level characters actually died in this book? One (Marius)?
And then the passing reference that Forrix believed that Falk would return to Hydra Cordatus seemed unnecessary and grated too.
I felt the novel dragged in places too, with some scenes feeling overly long.
Spoiler:
Such as the boarding of the Iron Hands' ship (which escaped in a particularly wacky-races-esque fashion), or the walking around on the Angel Exterminatus planet
I didn't mind it not being integral to the storyline, and I liked the insight it gave regarding the Iron Hands (and the characterisation of Falk), but the book left me disappointed: mainly for the above reasons. I would have preferred greater emphasis on how the Iron Hands are managing without their Primarch too.
Just Dave wrote: Well, I just finished Betrayer, and it could probably go somewhere on this list IMHO. I was wholly disappointed and really wouldn't recommend it (despite it being AD-B, I know).
Ultimately, my general dissatisfaction can be attributed mainly to the portrayed ineptitude of the Ultramarines and Roboute Guilliman, and the unbelievable abilities of the World Eaters and Word Bearers. The book appeared to be a story about Kharn and Argel Tal's jaunty stroll - as they (literally) kick chainswords up into the air to catch with their hands - through the massed ranks of Ultramarines; who themselves are defeated at every turn and overcome through the World Eaters being very, very angry. With the events described in the novel, it would be hard to believe that there are [m]any Ultramarines or World Eaters left, not that there was or should be many of the latter anyway. Likewise, too many times were events described as against the odds or hugely lucky.
Really, my discontent is excellently covered in this review off amazon (although I also found the pacing troublesome, which wasn't mentioned); with this and other reviews suggesting I'm not alone in my opinion:
Spoiler:
I'm a fan of the Horus Heresy series and a big fan of Dembski-Bowden who is one of the outstanding writers in the Black Library stable. His writing here is of his usual high calibre with punchy, immersive battle scenes and some excellent characterisation but the problems with the novel are too big to ignore. Some minor spoilers below -
One of the highlights is his sympathetic portrayal of rebellious primarchs Angron and Lorgar. They are shown to be warm, thoughtful, intelligent beings, neither of whom believes they are evil but rather are victims of desecration of their honour by the emperor and the Butcher's nails (Angron) or doing what is necessary to lay bare the emperor's lies and reveal an, albeit unpalatable, truth (Lorgar). Their monstrousness is more subtly revealed by the barely mentioned but obvious fact that the background to their actions is the destruction of civilizations and the ending of billions of ordinary human lives, which they seem barely to notice in pursuit of their personal desires. The background to why Lorgar and Angron are as they are is explored and draws the chain of events leading to the heresy past Horus' vanity and Erebus' machinations back to the Emperor's own actions more potently in this book than in most of the others in the series.
Battle highlights are the titan battles and void combat. There are also great non-combat plotlines such as the continuation of Argal Tal's storyline in an unexpected but satisfying direction and the development of Kharn. There are great new characters such as Lotara Sarrin the world eaters flag-captain and other human and mechanicum characters. In the great non-astartes characters he creates the author tackles the question of how the World Eater's legion could be kept running if all Angron and his space marines want to do is charge the enemy head on at every opportunity. Its a well done reversal of the usual 'even though they were created to be warrior-servants of the teeming human multitudes the god like space marines do everything brilliantly and just allow the humans to tag along'. How Angron's insistance on his marines having the Butcher's nails is destroying the legion and how they cling to brotherhood as everything else that usually defines a space marine is stripped away is movingly explored.
Unfortunately there are also such big holes in the novel's plausibility that they can't be covered over by the quality of the description and characters.
Running at the enemy whilst shouting wins everytime:
The problem is that in highlighting the problem with the Butcher's nails and the importance of the non-marine characters, Dembski-Bowden repeatedly points out that the World Eaters are like rabid animals with poor tactics, poor unit cohesion, poor communications, little battlefield command (what tactical direction there is comes from the human flag-captain), friendly fire incidents, little use of combined arms (eg their titan legion bemoans its loss rate as higher than other legions because the world eater marines just don't work in concert with them), poor battlefield discipline, a high casualty rate etc. Despite this we have to believe they slaughter their way through vast numbers of Ultramarines, the most tactically sophisticated, numerous, disciplined, brilliantly led etc legion, on their own territory. And the reason they can do this? Well, its repeatedly explained that its because they are aggressive. Snarling and waving your chainaxe around whilst charging at the enemy slightly more often than you charge your own battle brothers pretty much trumps any fancy tactical, superior firepower, or other nonsense the enemy might try and will always win the day. And even if your casualty rate is stupidly high your legion will somehow never get worn down by attrition. Its so daft that it seriously undermines the whole book.
Nobody minds being a traitor:
The World Eater human and mechanicum characters in the story are all well described and easy to relate to. They are described as normal people doing their various military jobs. In fact, if you weren't told they were working with the World Eaters you'd probably assume they were loyal imperial citizens. There is absolutely nothing to indicate why any of these characters has turned against the Emperor. One of the major mechanicum characters even keeps a scroll message sent to him from the Emperor because it is precious to him and seems to still consider the Emperor as the Omnissiah he worships.
Even odder than this is the reaction of a squad of World Eater dreadnoughts who are woken up having, with one exception, been asleep since not just before the heresy but before Angron was even found. The exception is the former legion master, appointed by the Emperor himself to run the legion until the primarch was found and who ended up in a dreadnought sarcophagus because his mad primarch nearly killed him just after his discovery. On being woken they are given a data upload which explains that their new Primarch - whom some had never met -is part of a rebellion to overthrow the Emperor - whom they were all loyally serving when they went to sleep - and they now need to go kill some loyalist space marines. They all just go off and do it without any indication of being troubled. 'Hey wake up. Listen, I know you loved and served the Emperor and were willing to give your lives for his vision of a galaxy wide imperium where humans would be safe and prosperous when you were last awake but we want to destroy the imperium you nearly died to forge, slaughter billions of the innocent then kill him and anyone who serves him, is that OK?' 'Uh, yeah, sure, count me in.'
Legion fighting legion? That's unthinkable before the heresy..oh, no, wait, no it isn't:
One of the tropes that has kept recurring throughout the Horus Heresy series, especially in the early books, is how unthinkable marine fighting marine was before the heresy. Most major characters have agonized over it at some point, the news of it happening has been greeted with shock and disbelief, an ultramine character in Know no Fear was punished for having even contemplated the possibility of it. In Betrayer, the author casually drops in that the Space Wolves and the World Eaters had a full on pitched battle well before the heresy, used by Leman Russ to try to teach Angron a lesson. Which rather makes a mockery of the 'battle brother against battle brother has turned our whole perception of reality upside down its so impossible to even comprehend' lament that characters in the earlier books keep spouting.
Finally there is a personal annoyance - In the 40k universe humanity has spread across the galaxy to every imaginable ecosphere over tens of millenia but, with the exception of the Salamanders chapter who are all black, everyone seems to be white (or sometimes 'dusky' (ie meditteranean)). Not only in the novels but the artwork on model box covers, books, posters or the painted models in White Dwarf every month. Dembski-Bowden tackles this by pointing out in his novel that, unlike other chapters, the World Eaters are drawn from a vast mixture of ethnic types. He points this out immediately before having the only obviously black character, Delvarus, (who comes from a jungle, of course), being taught a much needed lesson in honour and brotherhood by a number of his more noble comrades who, where their ethnicity is described, are white. As one scene in one novel it doesn't really matter but, rather depressingly, it just seems part of the same unspoken and pervasive leaning in GW products.
I have to admit, I (JD) didn't notice this bit.
So, the great writing we have come to expect from one of Black library's best writers, marred most particularly by the impossible need to make the utterly tactically inept World Eaters conquer everything in their path and for important characters to be traitors without any obvious reason. Buy it second hand on ebay, don't spend a tenner on it new.
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
Lemuel Gamon was black one of the remembrancers in the first three Horuse heresy books was black.
In regards to the WE/WB victories in Betrayer dont forget that the WE/WB armies had their Primarchs with them Primarchs are a huge equalizer.
The night of the Wolf was not common knowledge outside the Worldeaters and Space Wolves.
There where allusions in prospero burns that Space maine vs Space marine battle had occured before
godking wrote: Lemuel Gamon was black one of the remembrancers in the first three Horuse heresy books was black.
The black thing was neither something I noticed, nor my comment.
In regards to the WE/WB victories in Betrayer dont forget that the WE/WB armies had their Primarchs with them Primarchs are a huge equalizer.
Sometimes, yeah. But they didn't have their Primarchs...
Spoiler:
... During, say, when Kharn and the World Eaters charged at the Ultramarines and somehow overcame the shield wall. Or Kharn and Argel Tal seemingly slaughtering the Ultramarines at Nuceria; nor in the moments when it was described how they were often defying the odds/with huge luck. Nor the 42 ships of the Ultramarines fleet losing.
The night of the Wolf was not common knowledge outside the Worldeaters and Space Wolves.
There where allusions in prospero burns that Space maine vs Space marine battle had occured before
I'm aware, but it still takes away both the mystery of Russ' comment, and the incomprehension of the Heresy itself. That wasn't my comment, nor one of my major qualms, but I think it's a fair point.
godking wrote: Lemuel Gamon was black one of the remembrancers in the first three Horuse heresy books was black.
The black thing was neither something I noticed, nor my comment.
In regards to the WE/WB victories in Betrayer dont forget that the WE/WB armies had their Primarchs with them Primarchs are a huge equalizer.
Sometimes, yeah. But they didn't have their Primarchs...
Spoiler:
... During, say, when Kharn and the World Eaters charged at the Ultramarines and somehow overcame the shield wall. Or Kharn and Argel Tal seemingly slaughtering the Ultramarines at Nuceria; nor in the moments when it was described how they were often defying the odds/with huge luck. Nor the 42 ships of the Ultramarines fleet losing.
The night of the Wolf was not common knowledge outside the Worldeaters and Space Wolves.
There where allusions in prospero burns that Space maine vs Space marine battle had occured before
I'm aware, but it still takes away both the mystery of Russ' comment, and the incomprehension of the Heresy itself. That wasn't my comment, nor one of my major qualms, but I think it's a fair point.
The shieldwall bit i agree with it should never have been written that way Rage and courage cannot break a shieldwall in a direct assault unless you hugely outnumber the warriors in a shield wall.
Kharn and Argel are elite Astartes champions I have no issue with them slaughtering dozens and having a fair amount of ''heroes'' luck .
Other then Sevatar Amit or Sisigmund there are are very few warriors who can beat Kharn or Argel Tal in a one one fight.
With two Phalanx size ships and the brilliance of Lotara ican see the Ultramarines losing that many ships what should also be considered is that the UM fleet was cobbled together after the battle of Calth.
The shieldwall bit i agree with it should never have been written that way Rage and courage cannot break a shieldwall in a direct assault unless you hugely outnumber the warriors in a shield wall.
Kharn and Argel are elite Astartes champions I have no issue with them slaughtering dozens and having a fair amount of ''heroes'' luck .
Other then Sevatar Amit or Sisigmund there are are very few warriors who can beat Kharn or Argel Tal in a one one fight.
With two Phalanx size ships and the brilliance of Lotara ican see the Ultramarines losing that many ships what should also be considered is that the UM fleet was cobbled together after the battle of Calth.
Please use spoilers (I know I've had quite a few plot points previously spoiled due to the staggered release policy).
Spoiler:
I agree that they should be capable of slaughtering dozens, but with the way it was described - and them saving each others lives god knows how many times - it seemed to be even more than that. And yes, they are clearly capable of beating most in one-on-one fights, but these weren't one-on-one fights: they were pitched battles against arguably the most strategically astute Legion there is.
Fairly sure the kingships were smaller than the Phalanx - albeit not by masses IIRC - and even so there was only one kingship present; against an enemy that outnumbered them by 14 times (with Guilliman's fleet's strategies seemingly questionable also). The tattered nature of the Ultramarine fleet is a good point, but even Lotara's calculation's predicted the World/Bearers losing (or at least losing more than a ship).
DA's Forever wrote: Surprised how many people are throwing out Legion. Legion was great IMHO, loved that book. Only one I would throw on the chopping block for sure would be Battle for the Abyss. Absolute waste of paper
People hate the ending. And by ending I mean that twist ending of "the loyal marines decide to listen to xenos when the Imperium warns that Xenos lie and and attempt to missguide Humans and join the traitors because by destroying Humanity they are fulling the dream of the Emperor of Mankind but they do this because they are really loyal."
The book itself could be good but that entire end is enough to completely ruin the book.
The only good thing about the book is the character of John Grammaticus, who sadly
Spoiler:
stepped out of an airlock
The actual Legionnaires came across as trying way too hard to be all enigmatic and mysterious.
The shoe-horning of Alpha Legion into everything is also quite annoying, like gaking all over Corax's story for example. But that's Gav Thorpe, who writes alternate universe emo crap, so I pretty much ignore his contributions.
I enjoyed Legion except for the ending, likewise for Titanicus.
The problem with knowing how the Heresy ends and the fate of the primarchs can be overcome with good writing and making the journey to the known ending fun and interesting.
The books that fail, fail for other reasons than we know from the beginning that the Emperor kills Horus and eventually Leman Russ wanders off for a six pack and doesnt come back to the fang.
The whole Grammaticus plot with the Cabal is one of the things that is degrading the series, that was just a very bad direction to go.
All around, I loved Legion with my favorite characters easily being Soneka and Bronzi. Admittingly, I felt like the ending was rushed and came too soon, but I figured that the Acuity was something beyond human comprehension and just had to be the undeniable truth no matter where one's allegiance lay prior to witnessing the Acuity.
As for my least favorite... Hammer of Daemons. First time I read it, I liked it. Then again, I was heavily medicated and probably would've liked Justin Bieber if someone put it on. Second time I touched it, I just wanted to use it for kindling.
Still cant be like renegade, actually i imagine it is. My issue with renegade is the lack of punctuation now i know i am spotty with that, but i am not an author that writes books for money.
1. Trying to make things too evil, ever heard of forgotten realms and the drow, he just copy-pasted a bit from that then threw in stuff to make them sound evil.
2. The author did not know when to add commas, or periods. I mentally had to add them in and it detracted from the immersion that the book could've had.
Still it was a fun read, and it helped me figure out i want a Victorian styling on the kabalite true born.
Finally a book about White Scars my favorite Chapter!
Nope, its a book about Tau, Rogue Traders, and wait --- recycled plot twist a crazed Inquisitor! ZOMG SO ORIGINAL!
I forgot about that one.
Also - the hunt for voldorius.
I did think I didn't like the White Scars - but then I enjoyed the Brotherhood of the Storm. So I think it might just be those two books I didn't like.
thelordcal wrote: The problem with Hunt for Voldorius was a book explaining what basically took three paragraphs in the Space Marine codex to do wasn't a great idea.
This, and the free can of mustache wax you got with every purchase - so you could, you know, twirl your mustache every time you read the bad guys dialogue.
I really enjoyed that book. It was the first 
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