So during a game this weekend I had two units charge the same unit, one was a chariot and one was a unit of demonettes. He charged the chariot first and I saved my overreach cause I couldn't hurt it and I seen the demonettes coming. My opponent said I couldn't overwatch the second unit because I was already in an assault? Right or wrong?

Later that match I had a unit charge a demon prince, I declined the challenge, the next turn another demon prince charged into the same assault and declared a challenge. I was under the impression that you can only have one challenge per assault? Right or wrong?

 General_Chaos wrote:
My opponent said I couldn't overwatch the second unit because I was already in an assault? Right or wrong?

This is a matter of some contention at the moment. Some feel that after the first charge you are now in combat and so can't overwatch the second charger... some feel that the strict wording of the assault rules means that you are not actually considered engaged until the round of combat begins, and so can still fire overwatch at subsequent chargers.

Until GW FAQ it, you'll have to sort it out with your opponent.


Personally, I suspect that GW will go with the 'once you're in base contact, no more overwatch' interpretation.

Later that match I had a unit charge a demon prince, I declined the challenge, the next turn another demon prince charged into the same assault and declared a challenge. I was under the impression that you can only have one challenge per assault? Right or wrong?

If you declined the first challenge, then there was no current challenge in progress. Seems legit.


You can only have one ongoing challenge at a time, but are free to issue a new challenge on any turn in which there is not a current challenge happening.

Well look at it this way. You declare charge then resolve the overwatch, then roll charge distance. There is an option not to fire your units overwatch but you may only fire one per turn. This to me becomes more of a tactical choice. If you withhold the over watch but get charged, you can't fire. If you withhold it, the first charging unit fails to roll high enough then you still have an overwatch you can use on any other units that declare a charge.

So in the OPs example, he missed his chance because the chariot made the charge. But if the chariot failed the charge roll and did not make it to BTB then the OP could have then used the saved overwatch on the unit of daemonettes that declared a charge against his unit. I like that variation because there is risk involved in holding back your overwatch; It makes for a more tactically even game between shooting and assault armies.

1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section

Yup. He can turn your character off every turn unless you accept.

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Essentially yes - there are debates and arguments about it however.

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

...units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21 BRB.

I'm in agreement with the stance that once a charge is declared, overwatch fired (or not) and the charge is resolved successfully, then both of those units are locked in combat (with obvious exceptions where specified - i.e. vehicles).

Until it's FAQ-ed different, that's TWIPI

 insaniak wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:
My opponent said I couldn't overwatch the second unit because I was already in an assault? Right or wrong?

This is a matter of some contention at the moment. Some feel that after the first charge you are now in combat and so can't overwatch the second charger... some feel that the strict wording of the assault rules means that you are not actually considered engaged until the round of combat begins, and so can still fire overwatch at subsequent chargers.

Until GW FAQ it, you'll have to sort it out with your opponent.


Personally, I suspect that GW will go with the 'once you're in base contact, no more overwatch' interpretation.

Didn't that get FAQd already? And even if don't the OP scenario would be an special case... if you got charged by a chariot first and it made it into combat I don't think you would be engaged due to the chariot being a vehicle, even thou it will strike at you and you will give some punches back, chariots just like vehicles do not lock you into combat and both you and the vehicle can run away from the "combat" and also even shoot at the "engaged" vehicle.

Fragile wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

...units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21 BRB.

Again ignoring the context and section that sentence is from. That's a sentence from the "fight sub phase" section of the assault rules and is first determined only during that portion. Once determined, you are locked in combat until you lose/win/flee.

Let me make sure I have situation A correct: He declared the Chariot first, you declined the overwatch and he then declared the daemonettes?

If that is the case, then yes you could fire overwatch on the daemonettes because you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step.


Second scenario he is capable of challenging with either DP, there is no ongoing challenge in his turn because you declined to challenge during your turn(although he could have challenged you in your charge per the challenges rules, you get first choice but he can and some armies must issue a challenge if you decide not to).

Fragile wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

...units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21 BRB.

Those quotes are correct, but a unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.

If they are locked in combat the instant any model gets into base contact with an enemy then the rest of the unit can not finish the charge move as Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

So there is the debate in a nutshell and the rules are not 100% solid.

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page


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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step..

That is not true, you declare charge , overwatch, roll range and move models, them move on to the next unit you wish to make a charge with.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Let me make sure I have situation A correct: He declared the Chariot first, you declined the overwatch and he then declared the daemonettes?

If that is the case, then yes you could fire overwatch on the daemonettes because you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step.

Incorrect. Page 20 - Declare Charge, Resolve Overwatch, Roll charge Range, Charge Move, Declare Next Charge.

Heh, misremembered that entirely.

Well then; yes the unit was locked when the Daemonettes charged.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Heh, misremembered that entirely.

Another victim of Multiple Editionitis...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Those quotes are correct, but a unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.

If they are locked in combat the instant any model gets into base contact with an enemy then the rest of the unit can not finish the charge move as Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

So there is the debate in a nutshell and the rules are not 100% solid.

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

The rules are solid, you just dont agree with them.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Those quotes are correct, but a unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.

If they are locked in combat the instant any model gets into base contact with an enemy then the rest of the unit can not finish the charge move as Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

So there is the debate in a nutshell and the rules are not 100% solid.

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

The rules are solid, you just dont agree with them.

Have you read the thread i linked?

The rules are not solid. that thread proves that. There is some ambiguity with the rules even if you can not see that.

Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

I think in the OPs scenario, it is fine to pass on Overwatch on the chariot. Since the vehicle rules provide an exception to the general rule that models in base contact are locked in combat (p76), when the daemonettes declare their charge, his unit is not locked, so Overwatch is allowed, provided they have not done do earlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is regardless of how you decide the question about when you are considered locked, which was debated at length in the thread Deathreaper posted.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

And there's no reason to assume that your charge move is interrupted either.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

And there's no reason to assume that your charge move is interrupted either.

Except, you know, the rules that say:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

"cannot otherwise move"

A charge move would be otherwise moving.

You are only allowed to make pile in moves whilst locked in combat.

So either you are not locked til the fight subphase, which where the rules say you are locked, or you are locked as soon as the unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" which would stop you from moving unless you are making a pile in move.

Is a charge move a pile in move?

Here we go again .

I'll cite the BRB for rules and you will argue they don't work properly because of one out of context sentence so therefore your non rule supported way must be right and we will argue for 10 pages before getting locked again.

I concur that units are locked as soon as one unit makes the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section

Yup. He can turn your character off every turn unless you accept.

Absolutely.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

And there's no reason to assume that your charge move is interrupted either.

Except, you know, the rules that say:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

"cannot otherwise move"

A charge move would be otherwise moving.

You are only allowed to make pile in moves whilst locked in combat.

So either you are not locked til the fight subphase, which where the rules say you are locked, or you are locked as soon as the unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" which would stop you from moving unless you are making a pile in move.

Is a charge move a pile in move?

I'm missing it - can you tell me where during the charge move I check for locked status?
Obviously you can cite the page at least.

Fragile wrote:
Here we go again .

I'll cite the BRB for rules and you will argue they don't work properly because of one out of context sentence so therefore your non rule supported way must be right and we will argue for 10 pages before getting locked again.

Yea I FTFY.

How is "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23) out of context?

Is a assault move a Pile in move? Does the assault section say you can make your charge moves whilst locked in combat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm missing it - can you tell me where during the charge move I check for locked status?
Obviously you can cite the page at least.

That is the point, you do not check for locked until the rules tell you to, which is in the fight sub phase.

Therefore you are not locked until the fight subphase and can overwatch fire at any unit that declares a charge against that unit.

But OP seriously read the thread I linked, this has all been covered there. and decide with your group how you are going to play it.

Rigeld - so if you are claiimng you dont check for Locked during the Charge move, why are you suddenly deciding the check *after* the move is completed? Why the disparity?

Please cite the rule allowin you to check during Charge subphase a Fight sub-phase rule. Page and graph.

Because the rule says that they're locked when in base to base.
That doesn't give you permission to interrupt something that's already happening (ie the charge move).

Under the heading "FIGHT SUBPHASE", almost suggesting that that is when you determine if they are locked, no?

Or are you allowed to start the "FIGHT SUBPHASE" early for other rules, such as fighting a combat?

It states you may only make Pile in moves. Is making an assault move a pile in move? No? Then you are not allowed to perform it. There is no "unless you are already making a non-pile in move, move" caveat to the rule, it is fairly absolute.

So, again - why are you allowed to check for locked outside of the phase in which you are told what "locked" is? Page and para permission to do so will suffice.

Bit pants this wasn't addressed in the last FAQ.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - so if you are claiimng you dont check for Locked during the Charge move, why are you suddenly deciding the check *after* the move is completed? Why the disparity?

Please cite the rule allowing you to check during Charge subphase a Fight sub-phase rule. Page and graph.

Because of the sequence of the charge action. Unlike the previous edition where you declared all your charges at once, 6th makes it very clear they are sequential.

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch
3. Roll Charge Range
4. Charge Move
5. Resolve Next Charge or Finish Charge Sub Phase.

1. In order to declare the charge you cannot be locked in combat. pg 20. Here is when your locked test is done.
2. You cannot fire Overwatch if you are locked in combat. Here is where another locked test is done (opposing unit)
4. Here is where the UNIT moves (if successful in #3). It has specific permission to move into BTB with an enemy unit and that permission takes up an entire HALF A PAGE of how to do it. (vs the one half sentence you focus on)
5. Resolving the next charge means you must complete the subsequent charge 1-5, which includes the Overwatch step and checking for locked by charged unit.

The entirety of your argument is that once the initial charger has moved into BTB, the rest of the unit is disallowed to complete the charge move. By YOUR arguments, nothing disallows the first charger, only the rest of his unit. Which is a ridiculous argument.

The UNIT is given permission to move into BTB by the charge move, and is already in the middle of that move when your Half sentence supposedly stops it. The charge move states that ""All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move."" Specific permission for ALL of the models to make their charge move.


""While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot."" Is the Unit locked when it declares its action? No.

""Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit."" The Unit must finish its move once it started, therefore no checks for Locked until another Unit starts its move.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Under the heading "FIGHT SUBPHASE", almost suggesting that that is when you determine if they are locked, no?

Or are you allowed to start the "FIGHT SUBPHASE" early for other rules, such as fighting a combat?

It states you may only make Pile in moves. Is making an assault move a pile in move? No? Then you are not allowed to perform it. There is no "unless you are already making a non-pile in move, move" caveat to the rule, it is fairly absolute.

So, again - why are you allowed to check for locked outside of the phase in which you are told what "locked" is? Page and para permission to do so will suffice.

SO you cant check for locked at movement? shooting ? etc... Interesting.

"It has specific permission to move into BTB with an enemy unit and that permission takes up an entire HALF A PAGE of how to do it. (vs the one half sentence you focus on) "

Apparently another person not understanding what "specific" means.

Does it SPECIFY it can make the assault move EVEN THOUGH it is restricted by being locked? No? Then it isnt SPECIFIC permission, just very explicit permission to make a specific type (assault) of move.

There is very detailed permission on how to make an asasault move. Nowhere does it specify that this assault move may be made despite already being locked. Ergo, the very specific restriction on Locked kicks in, and, according to your interpretation you cannot move. this IS your interpretation, you just refuse to follow all the rules resulting from your idea that something that FIRST happens in the fight subphase (you become locked, and stay locked until combat is over - death, fleeing etc) actually happens before then.

Oh, and your last throwaway? FIRST told to check for locked. Almost like you dont become locked until the fight subphase, like it tells you under the headnig. You then remain locked until your situation changes.

Again: page and graph stating that you may make an assault move DESPITE being locked in combat, because otherwise you may not. I really dont care, one jot, the length of the assault move section vs the length of the locked section. It doesnt actually matter in thsi debate, so please dont bring it up again as it is entirely OT.

Not specific enough for you then. Then tell me, when does it Specifically tell you to check for Locked in combat. Hint... its not in the charge move section. The BRB tells you exactly when to check for Locked in Combat. During movement, pg 10, Shooting pg 12, during Declare Charge, pg 20., Resolve Overwatch pg 21. So show me permission, page and graph, that you check for Locked during the Charge move?? or anywhere else for that matter.

You have no permission to check for Locked mid action.

Yet your contention is you are locked immediately, so you must have some proof of that, yes?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet your contention is you are locked immediately, so you must have some proof of that, yes?

You're locked when it becomes relevant - IE resolving overwatch.
Since, you know, you're told to check there.

Ah, so youre locked when a model is in base contact, but only sometimes?

So youre not locked when a charging model is first moved? Or you are you're ust not allowed to check that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're also explicitly told when trying to Move while Locked that you can only make certain moves. So you are required, before Moving a model, to ensure you are not Locked if you are planning on making any move OTHER THAN a pile in move

So, during Move Chargers, after the first model has moved, you must check to ensure the following models can also Move.

Now your trying to justify your RAI. The BRB states when to check for Locked. It clearly states to check for Locked when Resolving Overwatch. By definition this is when a enemy is in BTB. A successful charge by a first unit will Lock the unit and prevent Overwatch by a second.

Again your entire argument has no RAW support. NONE. Your entire point is that RAW doesnt work properly so we should play it this other way. Perhap GW left checking for Locked out of the charge move for a specific reason.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so youre locked when a model is in base contact, but only sometimes?

So youre not locked when a charging model is first moved? Or you are you're ust not allowed to check that?

You're not allowed to check - as you're not told to check. Unless you've found a rule that isn't in my copy of the book.

You're also explicitly told when trying to Move while Locked that you can only make certain moves. So you are required, before Moving a model, to ensure you are not Locked if you are planning on making any move OTHER THAN a pile in move

So, during Move Chargers, after the first model has moved, you must check to ensure the following models can also Move.

Page 21, bottom right. Cite the rule that says to check for locked status.
I can cite it for normal movement, shooting, and most importantly for this discussion - overwatch.
You have failed to cite anything that actually stops a charge move other than "It totally does, I'm right."

Are you making a move other than a Pile in move? Yes? Then yo uneed to check , as Locked prevents you from making this move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are you making a move other than a Pile in move? Yes? Then yo uneed to check , as Locked prevents you from making this move.

You are not. You are making a charge move. Nothing in charge move says to check for locked. Movement says to check for locked, and during declare charge says to check for locked. But again, nothing is stopping the charge move.



I think this has summed up the discussion and it will get circular from here. Is there a point to continuing?

Again: Locked (the state) provides a restrictin on the type of move you are allowed to make.

If you are not making one of those moves, then you must check, otherwise you risk breaking a rule (locked) - and you play the game, usually, by NOT breaking rules

So, while you are explicitly told "check for locked" at other poitns, that is [redundant[/b] as the rules for locked do NOT tell you they only apply after you have checked to see if you are locked.

Yes, it is circular - until you stop making up a requirement (you can only be Locked if you have checked for that status) that doesnt exist.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are you making a move other than a Pile in move? Yes? Then yo uneed to check , as Locked prevents you from making this move.

That's incorrect. You're explicitly told when to check.
You've refused to cite a rule telling you to check during a charge move.
Refusal noted - please cite a rule or concede.

The rule under "locked" which prevents you frmo making a move other than Pile in requires that you check.

Or are you going to break that rule?

Premise: You are making a non-pile in move.
Known requirement: you may not make non-pile in moves if you are locked
Requirement: you must check if you are locked, even if you are not reminded to.

You are taking a rule that is functionally a reminder (you cannot do X if you are Y, so check if you are Y first) and turning it into a requirement that, if not there, means you are not Y.

Cite a rule allowing you to reformulate the Locked rule into only existing when you are explicitly remninded to check for its existence.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rule under "locked" which prevents you frmo making a move other than Pile in requires that you check.

Incorrect. We have no permission to check for lock during a charge move. Only prior to declaring a charge are we permitted to check.

Premise: You are making a non-pile in move.
Known requirement: you may not make non-pile in moves if you are locked
Requirement: you must check if you are locked, even if you are not reminded to.

Your "requirement" is a leap and unsupported by any rule. I know this because you've consistently refused to cite one.
Please adhere to the tenets of this forum.

You are taking a rule that is functionally a reminder (you cannot do X if you are Y, so check if you are Y first) and turning it into a requirement that, if not there, means you are not Y.

Yes, I'm using the actual rules as they're written. Big shock that.

Cite a rule allowing you to reformulate the Locked rule into only existing when you are explicitly remninded to check for its existence.

Straw man. Please don't. I'm reformulating nothing. I'm only applying rules when I'm told to apply rules.

So you have to be told to look at a rule before it can apply?

I *have* adhered to the tenets, as I am asking you why you are turning a reminder of a rule (check you are not locked) into the only requirement for said rule to be "present" in the first place

WHere in the Locked rule does it say it only applies when you check to see if it applies?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you have to be told to look at a rule before it can apply?

Well... yes. Or do we apply Out of Sight to all wounds, shooting or not?
Do you

I *have* adhered to the tenets, as I am asking you why you are turning a reminder of a rule (check you are not locked) into the only requirement for said rule to be "present" in the first place

Because it is not just a reminder - if the check wasn't there there's nothing to stop you overwatching no matter when you get charged.

Except Out of Sight mentions shooting, no? So it applies even if we are not *reminded* that out of sight is a rule that exists in the game.

Except you cannot make any shooting attacks while locked. So no, it is still a reminder, even on Overwatch

Locked is a state you can be in, so you have to, before performing an action, check to see if you are in that state. EVen if the rules dont remind you to do so.

Its like asking "have i finished" when writing a program. "Am I locked" is something you check before doing something that lock prohibits (or allows)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Locked is a state you can be in, so you have to, before performing an action, check to see if you are in that state. EVen if the rules dont remind you to do so.

You have yet to prove this assertion with any rules quote. Ever. It's been asked for repeatedly.
Since you're not going to actually provide one, I'm going to go ahead and request that the thread be locked.

One of the first games I played in 6th edition was against an assault heavy army. My opponent and I simply followed the rules for the assault phase that start on page 20. We even have several different units assaulting one unit and I felt that I was able to pick and choose which unit/units I would be overwatching against.

My interpretation of this sub phase is to allow you to declare charges, decide if you are going to overwatch against said unit, roll charge distance, move models, rinse and repeat. My conclusion comes from the two sections on the right hand side of page 22, "Declare next charge" and "Ending the charge sub-phase"

This feels to me as though any rules or restrictions from the previous sub section or the sub section after this would not apply (specifically the "locked in combat" restriction) and you would simple follow the steps as listed until every unit able/capable of charging has either done just that or failed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to add that no where on pages 20 - 22 does it reference any restrictions or even define what "Lock in combat" actually is. This is not mentioned until the following sub phase, after all charges have been declared and overwatch shots resolved.

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
One of the first games I played in 6th edition was against an assault heavy army. My opponent and I simply followed the rules for the assault phase that start on page 20. We even have several different units assaulting one unit and I felt that I was able to pick and choose which unit/units I would be overwatching against.

My interpretation of this sub phase is to allow you to declare charges, decide if you are going to overwatch against said unit, roll charge distance, move models, rinse and repeat. My conclusion comes from the two sections on the right hand side of page 22, "Declare next charge" and "Ending the charge sub-phase"

This feels to me as though any rules or restrictions from the previous sub section or the sub section after this would not apply (specifically the "locked in combat" restriction) and you would simple follow the steps as listed until every unit able/capable of charging has either done just that or failed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to add that no where on pages 20 - 22 does it reference any restrictions or even define what "Lock in combat" actually is. This is not mentioned until the following sub phase, after all charges have been declared and overwatch shots resolved.

It also doesnt define what locked in combat is during the Movement Phase, yet it tells you to check for it... maybe it doesnt apply there... And the shooting phase tells you to check, but doesnt define it.. so now my units can fire while in BTB with the enemy. Interesting.

I guess that is my fault for wording that phrase the way I did. During that specific sub phase it makes NO mention at all of "Lock in combat." However, during the following sub phase it not only mentions it but defines it as well listing restrictions and scenarios which would apply.

Not sure what you mean by that specific subphase but in Resolving Overwatch.


Overwatch Restrictions

It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

Locked in combat is defined on pg. 23 as in btb with an enemy.

Once a charge is completed, the enemy unit is locked in combat by definition. Now whether this is intentional or not, only GW knows. They certainly have enough time to FAQ it. If you dont want to play that way, thats all up to you and HIWPI. But by RAW, the first successful charge will lock a unit.

Premise 1: Locked is an ongoing condition that applies when "Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.

Premise 2: This rule is an ongoing condition that applies in all three phases (Movement, Shooting, and Assault).

Do you concur?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Locked is an ongoing condition that applies when "Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.

Premise 2: This rule is an ongoing condition that applies in all three phases (Movement, Shooting, and Assault).

Do you concur?

No.
It's a condition that's tested when you're told to test.

Well you seem to be misunderstanding locked in combat then.

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.


When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

Fragile wrote:
Not sure what you mean by that specific subphase but in Resolving Overwatch.


Overwatch Restrictions

It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

I guess that is what i get for posting a reply with a 100+ degree fever, thank you for pointing that out.

I still believe that the "Lock In Combat" reference is specific to models that were already locked in combat during the start the phase. If you were to have no prior knowledge of the 40k gaming system, crack open your book, and work through the sequence of events during the charge sub phase, there would be no reason as to why you would not be allowed to fire overwatch against a second unit charging you. But, by pointing out the section I have obviously missed on pg 21 I can see it going either way.

Rigeld - so the reminder "It's worth pointing out" isnt a reminder?

If you ARE in base to base with an enemy you ARE locked in combat. Present tense. So again, please prove that this is a state you ONLY check for when asked to.

Citation required otherwise the "LOCKED" rule, as it is currently written, is a continual state you ARE in once you satisfy the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - so the reminder "It's worth pointing out" isnt a reminder?

If you ARE in base to base with an enemy you ARE locked in combat. Present tense. So again, please prove that this is a state you ONLY check for when asked to.

Citation required otherwise the "LOCKED" rule, as it is currently written, is a continual state you ARE in once you satisfy the rules.

GW doesn't seem to think so.
Remember that the only rule that shows you cannot move through friendly models is a "reminder"?

Apart from the FAQ, of course.

So again; the rule for LOCKED states it is a continuing state, once you meet the criteria. So, again, provide proof that you only need to check for LOCKED when explicitly reminded to, and at no other time are you considered to be "locked"

Wrong way around - In the middle of the charge move you're told what to check for (difficult/dangerous terrain, etc). I see zero references to checking for outside statuses.

You keep asserting that you'd interrupt the current action to check for that but I see no reference permitting it. You only check for locked one time - before declaring the charge in the first place.

Why is that the wrong way around?

Are you saying locked is NOT a status you can meet at any time, but you are only "locked" when you are asked to check for it?

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Not sure what you mean by that specific subphase but in Resolving Overwatch.


Overwatch Restrictions

It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

I guess that is what i get for posting a reply with a 100+ degree fever, thank you for pointing that out.

I still believe that the "Lock In Combat" reference is specific to models that were already locked in combat during the start the phase. If you were to have no prior knowledge of the 40k gaming system, crack open your book, and work through the sequence of events during the charge sub phase, there would be no reason as to why you would not be allowed to fire overwatch against a second unit charging you. But, by pointing out the section I have obviously missed on pg 21 I can see it going either way.

Yeah, the thing is that its different than the previous edition where you declared all your charges and moved them all and then the defenders would react after that. Now GW has changed it to a sequential format, which changes the dynamic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why is that the wrong way around?

Are you saying locked is NOT a status you can meet at any time, but you are only "locked" when you are asked to check for it?

I'm saying you're only restricted by "locked" when you're told to check for it.
Which isn't a new position. It's what I've been saying the whole time.

Which is contrary to the rule for Locked, which states you "are" locked, and can only perform specifed actions (or are restricted from performing others - not an issue) as soon as the condition is met

So why, given the rules for checking for locked are written as reminders, and the rule for locked requires that it is a state you "are" in as soon as you checked, are you holding to that position?

I just wanted to be clear that your position runs contrary to the written rules for Locked, and to get you to cite your rule as to why this is the case. Please show how you are able to ignore the rule for Locked as being a "state" you are in, regardless of being reminded to check for this state, and please cite page and para.

Which is immaterial as you have no permission to interrupt a units actions to check, as the rule states the entire unit must make its move. The unit was not locked when it declared its action (which is why the check for locked is checked there explicitly) and once the models begin to move they must finish their moves. There is no rule or precedent to state that locked is checked on a model by model basis as the unit is moving. Even Coherency states that the unit must Finish their move in coherency.

The whole counter argument is just smoke and mirrors.

"once the models begin to move they must finish their moves"
Citation required. Page and paragraph will do nicely

They are making a non-pile in move, depite being Locked, and thus breaking the rule for Locked. The only way to comply with the CANT is that it overrides the MUST.

No, it is trying to point out that, if you actually read the written rules and not your made up version, Locked is a state you ARE in and being reminded to check for this status is just that

POinting out a rule that is broken isnt "smoke and mirrors", so kindly refrain frmo suggesting so.

So, again, permission to break the Locked rule. Page and para.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"once the models begin to move they must finish their moves"
Citation required. Page and paragraph will do nicely

BRB 21 wrote:After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions

Right there - permission to move regardless of outside factors as long as you abide by the other conditions - none of which are checking for locked.

""All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move"" pg 21. If the unit is checked for locked after the initial charger successfully makes a charge move, then ALL of the models did not make their charge move.

Show permission to interrupt a unit action. We have shown the only places in the BRB where you checked for locked and the charge move isnt it. But Overwatch is, which alone defeats your argument.

The rule is broken only when you take your version and apply out of context rules to other rules. You have Zero rule support for your version of Charge/overwatch so can only attack the correct way as being "wrong".

So a more specific rule cannot then stop the move?

Because the more specific rule, Locked, tells you you may NOT move while locked.

It does not say "regardless of outside factors"

So again, how is this not breaking the rule for locked? The rule above is *not* specific permission to override locked, as it doesnt even mentioned Locked. It is exactly like trying to claim "you are allowed to assault from an open topped transport the same turn you disembark" is allowance to override a completely different rule restricting you from assaulting, such as having arrived from reserves.

Poor comparison.
The Charge Move is allowed provided you meet 3 requirements. There's no allowance for other restrictions.
The assault rules aren't worded anywhere near that.

Will you answer the question I posted earlier?

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.


When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

rigeld2 wrote:
Poor comparison.
The Charge Move is allowed provided you meet 3 requirements. There's no allowance for other restrictions.

Now that is a really poor stance to take. What about specific > general? Cant trumping must? Or the fact the whole game is generally written general rule -> more specific rule -> most specific rule? The more generalised rule (assault move) does not HAVE to state it can be overridden by another rule, it has to state where it cannot - and it does not do this.

Have you recanted your previous position, that Locked is something only applicable when you check for it? AS you are now arguing another stance, which is that *even if* you are locked you would stil be able to complete your move. You have switched to whcih you are arguing - after all, if you are stating the former argument you have no need to argue the latter.

So, please - hav eyou changed stance? Do you now, finally, agree that when it says "you ARE locked" that that is a State you can be in, and is not something you must be told to check for that is not applicable at any other time? If not I AGAIN require you to state your rules backing for why this is not a State.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Poor comparison.
The Charge Move is allowed provided you meet 3 requirements. There's no allowance for other restrictions.

Now that is a really poor stance to take. What about specific > general? Cant trumping must? Or the fact the whole game is generally written general rule -> more specific rule -> most specific rule? The more generalised rule (assault move) does not HAVE to state it can be overridden by another rule, it has to state where it cannot - and it does not do this.

It actually does. Let me requote the rule:

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

There's no wiggle room there - as long as those 3 conditions are met, the move is allowed. Putting any other restrictions in there means you're breaking that rule.

Have you recanted your previous position, that Locked is something only applicable when you check for it? AS you are now arguing another stance, which is that *even if* you are locked you would stil be able to complete your move. You have switched to whcih you are arguing - after all, if you are stating the former argument you have no need to argue the latter.

No, I haven't switched. Whether it's a state or not is irrelevant as you're not told to check for it.

If not I AGAIN require you to state your rules backing for why this is not a State.

State or not is irrelevant.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Will you answer the question I posted earlier?

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.


When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

Poorly worded question.
When does it apply? Always.
When is it relevant? When you're told to check.

Yet Locked states you may not move.

So what is the more specific rule? EL states you may always make a roll, yet SA comes along and says you cant. Which is how the rest of the rules are written

So, again: cite rules explaining why Locked only applies when you are *remnided* to check for it. Perhaps we can sort out that part of your argumetn first?

Page and paragraph stating that Locked, as a rule, ONLY applies [as in: the point at whcih you must abide by this rule] when you are reminded to check for it. Page and parapraph. As this is the 3rd or so time of asking further failure will be considered concession.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet Locked states you may not move.

So what is the more specific rule? EL states you may always make a roll, yet SA comes along and says you cant. Which is how the rest of the rules are written

Charge Moves are more specific than locked.
Locked applies to movement in any phase, shooting in any phase... Charge Moves only apply in one instance. Demonstrably more specific.

So, again: cite rules explaining why Locked only applies when you are *remnided* to check for it. Perhaps we can sort out that part of your argumetn first?

Your assertion that "reminders" are just that is meaningless - they're when you're told to check, not reminded to check.

Page and paragraph stating that Locked, as a rule, ONLY applies [as in: the point at whcih you must abide by this rule] when you are reminded to check for it. Page and parapraph. As this is the 3rd or so time of asking further failure will be considered concession.

I've cited why. The fact that you're ignoring that means little to me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.
When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

Poorly worded question.
When does it apply? Always.
When is it relevant? When you're told to check.

Okay, can you not see how that answer is contradictory?

It applies always, but only relevant when you're told to check?

If it always applies then it is a state that the unit is in. certain actions are disallowed when locked, but it is a state that the unit is in and applies at all times, not just when told to check if locked.

It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

rigeld2 wrote:
A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

And being a BB or not has no bearing on shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

So it always applies, but sometimes it does not matter.

Got any rules to support that?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

And being a BB or not has no bearing on shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

So it always applies, but sometimes it does not matter.

Got any rules to support that?

Yes, I've cited them.
The Charge rules give permission to finish moves as long as 3 conditions are met.
None of those is checking locked.
Checking locked is cited everywhere it's required.

That section does not "give permission to finish moves" at least you have not cited any that override the locked in combat text. as Locked: always applies.

Edit fixed as to not cut down a quote.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That section does not "give permission to finish moves" at least you have not cited any that override the locked in combat text. as Locked:

rigeld2 wrote:
always applies

Thanks for cutting down my quote to make you seem correct!

So you did not say it always applies?

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you did not say it always applies?

I said it wasn't always relevant - which is the part you left out.
Once you start cutting down quotes I'm done. Have a nice day.

It always applies, but is not always relevant. Contradiction much?

P.S. fixed my earlier post.

When you move your first model to charge, you are starting the move for your unit. It is free to move at this time. Model 1 arrives, units are now locked in combat. The charging unit is already moving, it does not check to see if it can NOW move. You move the rest of the models to finish the move for the unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Let me make sure I have situation A correct: He declared the Chariot first, you declined the overwatch and he then declared the daemonettes?

If that is the case, then yes you could fire overwatch on the daemonettes because you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step.


Second scenario he is capable of challenging with either DP, there is no ongoing challenge in his turn because you declined to challenge during your turn(although he could have challenged you in your charge per the challenges rules, you get first choice but he can and some armies must issue a challenge if you decide not to).

I believe that the good Kommissar has it correct on both counts.

Taow wrote:
When you move your first model to charge, you are starting the move for your unit. It is free to move at this time. Model 1 arrives, units are now locked in combat. The charging unit is already moving, it does not check to see if it can NOW move. You move the rest of the models to finish the move for the unit.

That pretty much sums it up.

Fragile wrote:

Taow wrote:
When you move your first model to charge, you are starting the move for your unit. It is free to move at this time. Model 1 arrives, units are now locked in combat. The charging unit is already moving, it does not check to see if it can NOW move. You move the rest of the models to finish the move for the unit.

That pretty much sums it up.

Incorrectly, as Locked is a condition that always applies as long as one model has base contact with an enemy model.

Your specifically told when to check for a Unit being locked and mid charge isnt it.

I only mention this because there seemed to have been some confusion earlier in the thread, though I admit I could have just misunderstood what people were arguing about as neither side was very clear: Overwatch is something a unit can do only once per phase. Codex: Tau the Supporting Fire special rule has this as its last line: "Remember that a unit can still only fire Overwatch once each phase." BRB also says that it can only be done once per Turn per unit.

General_Chaos : RAW you were boned with regards to Overwatch unfortunately. Overwatch has the restriction that models "locked" in combat cannot fire. They are pretty particular about this on Page 21. What models are "locked" in combat is defined on Page 23: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." What is super lame is that you resolve each of the Assault Sub-Phases one unit at a time, so the chariot would already have been in base contact with one of your models, meaning your unit was locked in combat with it.

Unfortunately the rules on Page 27 for multiple units in a combat only discuss what happens if Unit A charges Units B and C, not what would happen if Unit A and B charged Unit C. So we have to use the standard Assault Rules for charging. Those rules are on Pages 21 and 22, and its pretty clear (see the "Declare Next Charge" sub-heading on Page 22) that the Charge Sub-Phase is resolved one unit at a time for the Player who's turn it is.

So RAW, your foe was right. I can't speak to RAI but I suspect that this was intentional on GW's part. While they aren't known for clear and concise rules, this is a fairly glaring oversight if it wasn't RAI, and they seem very clear in their intentions with regards to what units are "locked" in combat and what limits on the actions available to "locked" units are.

For your second question, you can issue a Challenge every Assault Phase so long as their isn't an active Challenge in play. Since you refused the Challenge, he got to pick which of your Characters could do nothing that Turn. On the next turn (sounds like on his Turn from your description of events) he could issue a Challenge with either of his Characters to you again. You'd have to choose to refuse or not again, but only one of your Characters would be prevented from doing anything. If you had any others, they'd still be able to do stuff.


So tough break on the Overwatch deal. That is an important lesson, one I wasn't entirely aware of myself until this thread. I'm curious if GW will ever FAQ it, but since they had just done an FAQ update I kind of doubt it. Seems like it might be intentional. Definitely makes for some interesting tactical options.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should clarify why I think General_Chaos and his opponent handled the charge thing correctly. Here's how the Assault Phase breaks down on Page 20:

+ Assault Phase +

Charge Sub-Phase
1. Declare Charge.
2. Resolve Overwatch.
3. Roll Charge Range.
4. Charge Move.
5. Declare Next Charge or Finish Charge Sub-Phase

Fight Sub-Phase
1. Choose a Combat.
2. Fight Close Combat.
3. Determine Assault Results.
4. Repeat Fight Sub-Phase or Finish Assault Phase.

What seems to confuse people is that the Sub-Phases handle things differently. The Charge Sub-Phase is on per Unit basis. The Player who's turn it is gets to choose one of his Units, perform the Charge Sub-Phase, then pick another of his units and repeat. But once you get to the Fight Sub-Phase its on a per Combat basis, which may include multiple Units.

The only advanced rules for the Charge Sub-Phase deal with what happens if you charge multiple Units with a single Unit. Not the other way around. It basically just penalizes you by taking away your Attack bonus from Charging and allowing the enemy to shoot Overwatch at you with both units that are being hit. Nothing in the rules says what happens if you have two units charging the same target, which means the basic rules handle it.

If you want to say otherwise I'd have to first tell you take a fresh look at Pages 20-21. They break down each step of each Sub-Phase, and they are always talking about it as a single Unit to single Unit situation.

Cowmonaut: Vehicles cannot lock units in combat. So the chariot would not lock the unit.

Ah, you are right! Page 82: "Note that, as a vehicle, the Chariot (and its rider, whilst embarked) cannot be locked in combat." I haven't run into too many Chariots so I made the (bad) assumption that they work like Walkers, which can be "locked" in combat despite being vehicles (Page 84).

So as a correction to what I said before: General_Chaos could have fired Overwatch at the second unit, but only because the first unit was a Chariot. If the first unit was a Walker or non-Vehicle unit he would have been unable to still.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

Excpet you are told you cannot make moves apart from A. You are trying to make a B move. It is "always on" so you are bound by this requirement.

You dont need to be reminded.

You have not cited the rule allowing you to complete the move. Concession accepted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

Excpet you are told you cannot make moves apart from A. You are trying to make a B move. It is "always on" so you are bound by this requirement.

You dont need to be reminded.

You have not cited the rule allowing you to complete the move. Concession accepted.

I have actually. You can pretend whatever you want, but at least don't lie.

No, I am not lying. Retract that falsehood.

You have stated why the move is normally completed. You havent stated permission to break the Locked rule, therefore you have NOT shown the rule allowing the move to be completed despite the model being locked.

Again: you are claiming that you need to be told to look at a rule before that rule can have an effect, even though the rule gives a prohibition once a condition is met, and has no requirement within the rule stating it is only active when checked.

You have given no rules support for that position. ABsolutely none.