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Why is that the wrong way around?

Are you saying locked is NOT a status you can meet at any time, but you are only "locked" when you are asked to check for it?

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Not sure what you mean by that specific subphase but in Resolving Overwatch.


Overwatch Restrictions

It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

I guess that is what i get for posting a reply with a 100+ degree fever, thank you for pointing that out.

I still believe that the "Lock In Combat" reference is specific to models that were already locked in combat during the start the phase. If you were to have no prior knowledge of the 40k gaming system, crack open your book, and work through the sequence of events during the charge sub phase, there would be no reason as to why you would not be allowed to fire overwatch against a second unit charging you. But, by pointing out the section I have obviously missed on pg 21 I can see it going either way.

Yeah, the thing is that its different than the previous edition where you declared all your charges and moved them all and then the defenders would react after that. Now GW has changed it to a sequential format, which changes the dynamic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why is that the wrong way around?

Are you saying locked is NOT a status you can meet at any time, but you are only "locked" when you are asked to check for it?

I'm saying you're only restricted by "locked" when you're told to check for it.
Which isn't a new position. It's what I've been saying the whole time.

Which is contrary to the rule for Locked, which states you "are" locked, and can only perform specifed actions (or are restricted from performing others - not an issue) as soon as the condition is met

So why, given the rules for checking for locked are written as reminders, and the rule for locked requires that it is a state you "are" in as soon as you checked, are you holding to that position?

I just wanted to be clear that your position runs contrary to the written rules for Locked, and to get you to cite your rule as to why this is the case. Please show how you are able to ignore the rule for Locked as being a "state" you are in, regardless of being reminded to check for this state, and please cite page and para.

Which is immaterial as you have no permission to interrupt a units actions to check, as the rule states the entire unit must make its move. The unit was not locked when it declared its action (which is why the check for locked is checked there explicitly) and once the models begin to move they must finish their moves. There is no rule or precedent to state that locked is checked on a model by model basis as the unit is moving. Even Coherency states that the unit must Finish their move in coherency.

The whole counter argument is just smoke and mirrors.

"once the models begin to move they must finish their moves"
Citation required. Page and paragraph will do nicely

They are making a non-pile in move, depite being Locked, and thus breaking the rule for Locked. The only way to comply with the CANT is that it overrides the MUST.

No, it is trying to point out that, if you actually read the written rules and not your made up version, Locked is a state you ARE in and being reminded to check for this status is just that

POinting out a rule that is broken isnt "smoke and mirrors", so kindly refrain frmo suggesting so.

So, again, permission to break the Locked rule. Page and para.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
"once the models begin to move they must finish their moves"
Citation required. Page and paragraph will do nicely

BRB 21 wrote:After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions

Right there - permission to move regardless of outside factors as long as you abide by the other conditions - none of which are checking for locked.

""All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move"" pg 21. If the unit is checked for locked after the initial charger successfully makes a charge move, then ALL of the models did not make their charge move.

Show permission to interrupt a unit action. We have shown the only places in the BRB where you checked for locked and the charge move isnt it. But Overwatch is, which alone defeats your argument.

The rule is broken only when you take your version and apply out of context rules to other rules. You have Zero rule support for your version of Charge/overwatch so can only attack the correct way as being "wrong".

So a more specific rule cannot then stop the move?

Because the more specific rule, Locked, tells you you may NOT move while locked.

It does not say "regardless of outside factors"

So again, how is this not breaking the rule for locked? The rule above is *not* specific permission to override locked, as it doesnt even mentioned Locked. It is exactly like trying to claim "you are allowed to assault from an open topped transport the same turn you disembark" is allowance to override a completely different rule restricting you from assaulting, such as having arrived from reserves.

Poor comparison.
The Charge Move is allowed provided you meet 3 requirements. There's no allowance for other restrictions.
The assault rules aren't worded anywhere near that.

Will you answer the question I posted earlier?

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.


When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

rigeld2 wrote:
Poor comparison.
The Charge Move is allowed provided you meet 3 requirements. There's no allowance for other restrictions.

Now that is a really poor stance to take. What about specific > general? Cant trumping must? Or the fact the whole game is generally written general rule -> more specific rule -> most specific rule? The more generalised rule (assault move) does not HAVE to state it can be overridden by another rule, it has to state where it cannot - and it does not do this.

Have you recanted your previous position, that Locked is something only applicable when you check for it? AS you are now arguing another stance, which is that *even if* you are locked you would stil be able to complete your move. You have switched to whcih you are arguing - after all, if you are stating the former argument you have no need to argue the latter.

So, please - hav eyou changed stance? Do you now, finally, agree that when it says "you ARE locked" that that is a State you can be in, and is not something you must be told to check for that is not applicable at any other time? If not I AGAIN require you to state your rules backing for why this is not a State.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Poor comparison.
The Charge Move is allowed provided you meet 3 requirements. There's no allowance for other restrictions.

Now that is a really poor stance to take. What about specific > general? Cant trumping must? Or the fact the whole game is generally written general rule -> more specific rule -> most specific rule? The more generalised rule (assault move) does not HAVE to state it can be overridden by another rule, it has to state where it cannot - and it does not do this.

It actually does. Let me requote the rule:

After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire, providing you abide by the following conditions:

There's no wiggle room there - as long as those 3 conditions are met, the move is allowed. Putting any other restrictions in there means you're breaking that rule.

Have you recanted your previous position, that Locked is something only applicable when you check for it? AS you are now arguing another stance, which is that *even if* you are locked you would stil be able to complete your move. You have switched to whcih you are arguing - after all, if you are stating the former argument you have no need to argue the latter.

No, I haven't switched. Whether it's a state or not is irrelevant as you're not told to check for it.

If not I AGAIN require you to state your rules backing for why this is not a State.

State or not is irrelevant.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Will you answer the question I posted earlier?

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.


When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

Poorly worded question.
When does it apply? Always.
When is it relevant? When you're told to check.

Yet Locked states you may not move.

So what is the more specific rule? EL states you may always make a roll, yet SA comes along and says you cant. Which is how the rest of the rules are written

So, again: cite rules explaining why Locked only applies when you are *remnided* to check for it. Perhaps we can sort out that part of your argumetn first?

Page and paragraph stating that Locked, as a rule, ONLY applies [as in: the point at whcih you must abide by this rule] when you are reminded to check for it. Page and parapraph. As this is the 3rd or so time of asking further failure will be considered concession.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet Locked states you may not move.

So what is the more specific rule? EL states you may always make a roll, yet SA comes along and says you cant. Which is how the rest of the rules are written

Charge Moves are more specific than locked.
Locked applies to movement in any phase, shooting in any phase... Charge Moves only apply in one instance. Demonstrably more specific.

So, again: cite rules explaining why Locked only applies when you are *remnided* to check for it. Perhaps we can sort out that part of your argumetn first?

Your assertion that "reminders" are just that is meaningless - they're when you're told to check, not reminded to check.

Page and paragraph stating that Locked, as a rule, ONLY applies [as in: the point at whcih you must abide by this rule] when you are reminded to check for it. Page and parapraph. As this is the 3rd or so time of asking further failure will be considered concession.

I've cited why. The fact that you're ignoring that means little to me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.
When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

Poorly worded question.
When does it apply? Always.
When is it relevant? When you're told to check.

Okay, can you not see how that answer is contradictory?

It applies always, but only relevant when you're told to check?

If it always applies then it is a state that the unit is in. certain actions are disallowed when locked, but it is a state that the unit is in and applies at all times, not just when told to check if locked.

It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

rigeld2 wrote:
A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

And being a BB or not has no bearing on shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

So it always applies, but sometimes it does not matter.

Got any rules to support that?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
A Battle Brother unit is always a Battle Brother. That means absolutely nothing when he's shooting at an enemy unit. We know that because we're not told to check his Battle Brother status.

And being a BB or not has no bearing on shooting.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not contradictory. It always applies but unless you're told to "check state" it doesn't matter.

So it always applies, but sometimes it does not matter.

Got any rules to support that?

Yes, I've cited them.
The Charge rules give permission to finish moves as long as 3 conditions are met.
None of those is checking locked.
Checking locked is cited everywhere it's required.

That section does not "give permission to finish moves" at least you have not cited any that override the locked in combat text. as Locked: always applies.

Edit fixed as to not cut down a quote.

 DeathReaper wrote:
That section does not "give permission to finish moves" at least you have not cited any that override the locked in combat text. as Locked:

rigeld2 wrote:
always applies

Thanks for cutting down my quote to make you seem correct!

So you did not say it always applies?

 DeathReaper wrote:
So you did not say it always applies?

I said it wasn't always relevant - which is the part you left out.
Once you start cutting down quotes I'm done. Have a nice day.

It always applies, but is not always relevant. Contradiction much?

P.S. fixed my earlier post.

When you move your first model to charge, you are starting the move for your unit. It is free to move at this time. Model 1 arrives, units are now locked in combat. The charging unit is already moving, it does not check to see if it can NOW move. You move the rest of the models to finish the move for the unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Let me make sure I have situation A correct: He declared the Chariot first, you declined the overwatch and he then declared the daemonettes?

If that is the case, then yes you could fire overwatch on the daemonettes because you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step.


Second scenario he is capable of challenging with either DP, there is no ongoing challenge in his turn because you declined to challenge during your turn(although he could have challenged you in your charge per the challenges rules, you get first choice but he can and some armies must issue a challenge if you decide not to).

I believe that the good Kommissar has it correct on both counts.

Taow wrote:
When you move your first model to charge, you are starting the move for your unit. It is free to move at this time. Model 1 arrives, units are now locked in combat. The charging unit is already moving, it does not check to see if it can NOW move. You move the rest of the models to finish the move for the unit.

That pretty much sums it up.

Fragile wrote:

Taow wrote:
When you move your first model to charge, you are starting the move for your unit. It is free to move at this time. Model 1 arrives, units are now locked in combat. The charging unit is already moving, it does not check to see if it can NOW move. You move the rest of the models to finish the move for the unit.

That pretty much sums it up.

Incorrectly, as Locked is a condition that always applies as long as one model has base contact with an enemy model.

Your specifically told when to check for a Unit being locked and mid charge isnt it.

I only mention this because there seemed to have been some confusion earlier in the thread, though I admit I could have just misunderstood what people were arguing about as neither side was very clear: Overwatch is something a unit can do only once per phase. Codex: Tau the Supporting Fire special rule has this as its last line: "Remember that a unit can still only fire Overwatch once each phase." BRB also says that it can only be done once per Turn per unit.

General_Chaos : RAW you were boned with regards to Overwatch unfortunately. Overwatch has the restriction that models "locked" in combat cannot fire. They are pretty particular about this on Page 21. What models are "locked" in combat is defined on Page 23: "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." What is super lame is that you resolve each of the Assault Sub-Phases one unit at a time, so the chariot would already have been in base contact with one of your models, meaning your unit was locked in combat with it.

Unfortunately the rules on Page 27 for multiple units in a combat only discuss what happens if Unit A charges Units B and C, not what would happen if Unit A and B charged Unit C. So we have to use the standard Assault Rules for charging. Those rules are on Pages 21 and 22, and its pretty clear (see the "Declare Next Charge" sub-heading on Page 22) that the Charge Sub-Phase is resolved one unit at a time for the Player who's turn it is.

So RAW, your foe was right. I can't speak to RAI but I suspect that this was intentional on GW's part. While they aren't known for clear and concise rules, this is a fairly glaring oversight if it wasn't RAI, and they seem very clear in their intentions with regards to what units are "locked" in combat and what limits on the actions available to "locked" units are.

For your second question, you can issue a Challenge every Assault Phase so long as their isn't an active Challenge in play. Since you refused the Challenge, he got to pick which of your Characters could do nothing that Turn. On the next turn (sounds like on his Turn from your description of events) he could issue a Challenge with either of his Characters to you again. You'd have to choose to refuse or not again, but only one of your Characters would be prevented from doing anything. If you had any others, they'd still be able to do stuff.


So tough break on the Overwatch deal. That is an important lesson, one I wasn't entirely aware of myself until this thread. I'm curious if GW will ever FAQ it, but since they had just done an FAQ update I kind of doubt it. Seems like it might be intentional. Definitely makes for some interesting tactical options.








Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should clarify why I think General_Chaos and his opponent handled the charge thing correctly. Here's how the Assault Phase breaks down on Page 20:

+ Assault Phase +

Charge Sub-Phase
1. Declare Charge.
2. Resolve Overwatch.
3. Roll Charge Range.
4. Charge Move.
5. Declare Next Charge or Finish Charge Sub-Phase

Fight Sub-Phase
1. Choose a Combat.
2. Fight Close Combat.
3. Determine Assault Results.
4. Repeat Fight Sub-Phase or Finish Assault Phase.

What seems to confuse people is that the Sub-Phases handle things differently. The Charge Sub-Phase is on per Unit basis. The Player who's turn it is gets to choose one of his Units, perform the Charge Sub-Phase, then pick another of his units and repeat. But once you get to the Fight Sub-Phase its on a per Combat basis, which may include multiple Units.

The only advanced rules for the Charge Sub-Phase deal with what happens if you charge multiple Units with a single Unit. Not the other way around. It basically just penalizes you by taking away your Attack bonus from Charging and allowing the enemy to shoot Overwatch at you with both units that are being hit. Nothing in the rules says what happens if you have two units charging the same target, which means the basic rules handle it.

If you want to say otherwise I'd have to first tell you take a fresh look at Pages 20-21. They break down each step of each Sub-Phase, and they are always talking about it as a single Unit to single Unit situation.