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So during a game this weekend I had two units charge the same unit, one was a chariot and one was a unit of demonettes. He charged the chariot first and I saved my overreach cause I couldn't hurt it and I seen the demonettes coming. My opponent said I couldn't overwatch the second unit because I was already in an assault? Right or wrong?

Later that match I had a unit charge a demon prince, I declined the challenge, the next turn another demon prince charged into the same assault and declared a challenge. I was under the impression that you can only have one challenge per assault? Right or wrong?

 General_Chaos wrote:
My opponent said I couldn't overwatch the second unit because I was already in an assault? Right or wrong?

This is a matter of some contention at the moment. Some feel that after the first charge you are now in combat and so can't overwatch the second charger... some feel that the strict wording of the assault rules means that you are not actually considered engaged until the round of combat begins, and so can still fire overwatch at subsequent chargers.

Until GW FAQ it, you'll have to sort it out with your opponent.


Personally, I suspect that GW will go with the 'once you're in base contact, no more overwatch' interpretation.

Later that match I had a unit charge a demon prince, I declined the challenge, the next turn another demon prince charged into the same assault and declared a challenge. I was under the impression that you can only have one challenge per assault? Right or wrong?

If you declined the first challenge, then there was no current challenge in progress. Seems legit.


You can only have one ongoing challenge at a time, but are free to issue a new challenge on any turn in which there is not a current challenge happening.

Well look at it this way. You declare charge then resolve the overwatch, then roll charge distance. There is an option not to fire your units overwatch but you may only fire one per turn. This to me becomes more of a tactical choice. If you withhold the over watch but get charged, you can't fire. If you withhold it, the first charging unit fails to roll high enough then you still have an overwatch you can use on any other units that declare a charge.

So in the OPs example, he missed his chance because the chariot made the charge. But if the chariot failed the charge roll and did not make it to BTB then the OP could have then used the saved overwatch on the unit of daemonettes that declared a charge against his unit. I like that variation because there is risk involved in holding back your overwatch; It makes for a more tactically even game between shooting and assault armies.

1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section

Yup. He can turn your character off every turn unless you accept.

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Essentially yes - there are debates and arguments about it however.

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

...units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21 BRB.

I'm in agreement with the stance that once a charge is declared, overwatch fired (or not) and the charge is resolved successfully, then both of those units are locked in combat (with obvious exceptions where specified - i.e. vehicles).

Until it's FAQ-ed different, that's TWIPI

 insaniak wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:
My opponent said I couldn't overwatch the second unit because I was already in an assault? Right or wrong?

This is a matter of some contention at the moment. Some feel that after the first charge you are now in combat and so can't overwatch the second charger... some feel that the strict wording of the assault rules means that you are not actually considered engaged until the round of combat begins, and so can still fire overwatch at subsequent chargers.

Until GW FAQ it, you'll have to sort it out with your opponent.


Personally, I suspect that GW will go with the 'once you're in base contact, no more overwatch' interpretation.

Didn't that get FAQd already? And even if don't the OP scenario would be an special case... if you got charged by a chariot first and it made it into combat I don't think you would be engaged due to the chariot being a vehicle, even thou it will strike at you and you will give some punches back, chariots just like vehicles do not lock you into combat and both you and the vehicle can run away from the "combat" and also even shoot at the "engaged" vehicle.

Fragile wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

...units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21 BRB.

Again ignoring the context and section that sentence is from. That's a sentence from the "fight sub phase" section of the assault rules and is first determined only during that portion. Once determined, you are locked in combat until you lose/win/flee.

Let me make sure I have situation A correct: He declared the Chariot first, you declined the overwatch and he then declared the daemonettes?

If that is the case, then yes you could fire overwatch on the daemonettes because you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step.


Second scenario he is capable of challenging with either DP, there is no ongoing challenge in his turn because you declined to challenge during your turn(although he could have challenged you in your charge per the challenges rules, you get first choice but he can and some armies must issue a challenge if you decide not to).

Fragile wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
1. Well in your example, without knowing specifics, a Chariot is a vehicle and cannot lock or be locked in combat. The restriction on Overwatch is that a unit that is locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. So, in your case, you could wait for the Demonettes. If it had been a non vehicle unit, then it would have locked you and he would have been correct.

I guess the best question is when is a unit considered locked in combat? As soon as someone gets base to base with you?

Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

...units locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21 BRB.

Those quotes are correct, but a unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.

If they are locked in combat the instant any model gets into base contact with an enemy then the rest of the unit can not finish the charge move as Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

So there is the debate in a nutshell and the rules are not 100% solid.

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step..

That is not true, you declare charge , overwatch, roll range and move models, them move on to the next unit you wish to make a charge with.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Let me make sure I have situation A correct: He declared the Chariot first, you declined the overwatch and he then declared the daemonettes?

If that is the case, then yes you could fire overwatch on the daemonettes because you declare all your charges(interrupted by overwatches where appropriate) before any charge moves are made before any models are engaged. Follow the phase step by step.

Incorrect. Page 20 - Declare Charge, Resolve Overwatch, Roll charge Range, Charge Move, Declare Next Charge.

Heh, misremembered that entirely.

Well then; yes the unit was locked when the Daemonettes charged.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Heh, misremembered that entirely.

Another victim of Multiple Editionitis...

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

Those quotes are correct, but a unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.

If they are locked in combat the instant any model gets into base contact with an enemy then the rest of the unit can not finish the charge move as Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

So there is the debate in a nutshell and the rules are not 100% solid.

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

The rules are solid, you just dont agree with them.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Those quotes are correct, but a unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub-phase.

If they are locked in combat the instant any model gets into base contact with an enemy then the rest of the unit can not finish the charge move as Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat. Pg 23 BRB.

So there is the debate in a nutshell and the rules are not 100% solid.

Check out this thread, come to an agreement with your opponent pre-game.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/483327.page

The rules are solid, you just dont agree with them.

Have you read the thread i linked?

The rules are not solid. that thread proves that. There is some ambiguity with the rules even if you can not see that.

Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

I think in the OPs scenario, it is fine to pass on Overwatch on the chariot. Since the vehicle rules provide an exception to the general rule that models in base contact are locked in combat (p76), when the daemonettes declare their charge, his unit is not locked, so Overwatch is allowed, provided they have not done do earlier.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is regardless of how you decide the question about when you are considered locked, which was debated at length in the thread Deathreaper posted.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

And there's no reason to assume that your charge move is interrupted either.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

And there's no reason to assume that your charge move is interrupted either.

Except, you know, the rules that say:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

"cannot otherwise move"

A charge move would be otherwise moving.

You are only allowed to make pile in moves whilst locked in combat.

So either you are not locked til the fight subphase, which where the rules say you are locked, or you are locked as soon as the unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" which would stop you from moving unless you are making a pile in move.

Is a charge move a pile in move?

Here we go again .

I'll cite the BRB for rules and you will argue they don't work properly because of one out of context sentence so therefore your non rule supported way must be right and we will argue for 10 pages before getting locked again.

I concur that units are locked as soon as one unit makes the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

 General_Chaos wrote:

Fragile wrote:
2. A challenge can be issued each turn, if there is no ongoing challenge.

So if you decline a challenge your opponent can make a challenge every turn? that doesn't sound right looks like I need to re-read that section

Yup. He can turn your character off every turn unless you accept.

Absolutely.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why are you locked immediately, when the rules first apply in the Fight subphase? That is how the rules read. It isnt the fight subphase yet, so why are you locked?

What permission do you have to make a non-Pile in move, despite being locked? Explicit permission would be required.

Exactly this^

There is no explicit permission to override the rule that says "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." p.23

And there's no reason to assume that your charge move is interrupted either.

Except, you know, the rules that say:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

"cannot otherwise move"

A charge move would be otherwise moving.

You are only allowed to make pile in moves whilst locked in combat.

So either you are not locked til the fight subphase, which where the rules say you are locked, or you are locked as soon as the unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" which would stop you from moving unless you are making a pile in move.

Is a charge move a pile in move?

I'm missing it - can you tell me where during the charge move I check for locked status?
Obviously you can cite the page at least.

Fragile wrote:
Here we go again .

I'll cite the BRB for rules and you will argue they don't work properly because of one out of context sentence so therefore your non rule supported way must be right and we will argue for 10 pages before getting locked again.

Yea I FTFY.

How is "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23) out of context?

Is a assault move a Pile in move? Does the assault section say you can make your charge moves whilst locked in combat?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
I'm missing it - can you tell me where during the charge move I check for locked status?
Obviously you can cite the page at least.

That is the point, you do not check for locked until the rules tell you to, which is in the fight sub phase.

Therefore you are not locked until the fight subphase and can overwatch fire at any unit that declares a charge against that unit.

But OP seriously read the thread I linked, this has all been covered there. and decide with your group how you are going to play it.

Rigeld - so if you are claiimng you dont check for Locked during the Charge move, why are you suddenly deciding the check *after* the move is completed? Why the disparity?

Please cite the rule allowin you to check during Charge subphase a Fight sub-phase rule. Page and graph.

Because the rule says that they're locked when in base to base.
That doesn't give you permission to interrupt something that's already happening (ie the charge move).

Under the heading "FIGHT SUBPHASE", almost suggesting that that is when you determine if they are locked, no?

Or are you allowed to start the "FIGHT SUBPHASE" early for other rules, such as fighting a combat?

It states you may only make Pile in moves. Is making an assault move a pile in move? No? Then you are not allowed to perform it. There is no "unless you are already making a non-pile in move, move" caveat to the rule, it is fairly absolute.

So, again - why are you allowed to check for locked outside of the phase in which you are told what "locked" is? Page and para permission to do so will suffice.

Bit pants this wasn't addressed in the last FAQ.