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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - so if you are claiimng you dont check for Locked during the Charge move, why are you suddenly deciding the check *after* the move is completed? Why the disparity?

Please cite the rule allowing you to check during Charge subphase a Fight sub-phase rule. Page and graph.

Because of the sequence of the charge action. Unlike the previous edition where you declared all your charges at once, 6th makes it very clear they are sequential.

1. Declare Charge
2. Resolve Overwatch
3. Roll Charge Range
4. Charge Move
5. Resolve Next Charge or Finish Charge Sub Phase.

1. In order to declare the charge you cannot be locked in combat. pg 20. Here is when your locked test is done.
2. You cannot fire Overwatch if you are locked in combat. Here is where another locked test is done (opposing unit)
4. Here is where the UNIT moves (if successful in #3). It has specific permission to move into BTB with an enemy unit and that permission takes up an entire HALF A PAGE of how to do it. (vs the one half sentence you focus on)
5. Resolving the next charge means you must complete the subsequent charge 1-5, which includes the Overwatch step and checking for locked by charged unit.

The entirety of your argument is that once the initial charger has moved into BTB, the rest of the unit is disallowed to complete the charge move. By YOUR arguments, nothing disallows the first charger, only the rest of his unit. Which is a ridiculous argument.

The UNIT is given permission to move into BTB by the charge move, and is already in the middle of that move when your Half sentence supposedly stops it. The charge move states that ""All of the models in a charging unit make their charge move."" Specific permission for ALL of the models to make their charge move.


""While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot."" Is the Unit locked when it declares its action? No.

""Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit."" The Unit must finish its move once it started, therefore no checks for Locked until another Unit starts its move.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Under the heading "FIGHT SUBPHASE", almost suggesting that that is when you determine if they are locked, no?

Or are you allowed to start the "FIGHT SUBPHASE" early for other rules, such as fighting a combat?

It states you may only make Pile in moves. Is making an assault move a pile in move? No? Then you are not allowed to perform it. There is no "unless you are already making a non-pile in move, move" caveat to the rule, it is fairly absolute.

So, again - why are you allowed to check for locked outside of the phase in which you are told what "locked" is? Page and para permission to do so will suffice.

SO you cant check for locked at movement? shooting ? etc... Interesting.

"It has specific permission to move into BTB with an enemy unit and that permission takes up an entire HALF A PAGE of how to do it. (vs the one half sentence you focus on) "

Apparently another person not understanding what "specific" means.

Does it SPECIFY it can make the assault move EVEN THOUGH it is restricted by being locked? No? Then it isnt SPECIFIC permission, just very explicit permission to make a specific type (assault) of move.

There is very detailed permission on how to make an asasault move. Nowhere does it specify that this assault move may be made despite already being locked. Ergo, the very specific restriction on Locked kicks in, and, according to your interpretation you cannot move. this IS your interpretation, you just refuse to follow all the rules resulting from your idea that something that FIRST happens in the fight subphase (you become locked, and stay locked until combat is over - death, fleeing etc) actually happens before then.

Oh, and your last throwaway? FIRST told to check for locked. Almost like you dont become locked until the fight subphase, like it tells you under the headnig. You then remain locked until your situation changes.

Again: page and graph stating that you may make an assault move DESPITE being locked in combat, because otherwise you may not. I really dont care, one jot, the length of the assault move section vs the length of the locked section. It doesnt actually matter in thsi debate, so please dont bring it up again as it is entirely OT.

Not specific enough for you then. Then tell me, when does it Specifically tell you to check for Locked in combat. Hint... its not in the charge move section. The BRB tells you exactly when to check for Locked in Combat. During movement, pg 10, Shooting pg 12, during Declare Charge, pg 20., Resolve Overwatch pg 21. So show me permission, page and graph, that you check for Locked during the Charge move?? or anywhere else for that matter.

You have no permission to check for Locked mid action.

Yet your contention is you are locked immediately, so you must have some proof of that, yes?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yet your contention is you are locked immediately, so you must have some proof of that, yes?

You're locked when it becomes relevant - IE resolving overwatch.
Since, you know, you're told to check there.

Ah, so youre locked when a model is in base contact, but only sometimes?

So youre not locked when a charging model is first moved? Or you are you're ust not allowed to check that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You're also explicitly told when trying to Move while Locked that you can only make certain moves. So you are required, before Moving a model, to ensure you are not Locked if you are planning on making any move OTHER THAN a pile in move

So, during Move Chargers, after the first model has moved, you must check to ensure the following models can also Move.

Now your trying to justify your RAI. The BRB states when to check for Locked. It clearly states to check for Locked when Resolving Overwatch. By definition this is when a enemy is in BTB. A successful charge by a first unit will Lock the unit and prevent Overwatch by a second.

Again your entire argument has no RAW support. NONE. Your entire point is that RAW doesnt work properly so we should play it this other way. Perhap GW left checking for Locked out of the charge move for a specific reason.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, so youre locked when a model is in base contact, but only sometimes?

So youre not locked when a charging model is first moved? Or you are you're ust not allowed to check that?

You're not allowed to check - as you're not told to check. Unless you've found a rule that isn't in my copy of the book.

You're also explicitly told when trying to Move while Locked that you can only make certain moves. So you are required, before Moving a model, to ensure you are not Locked if you are planning on making any move OTHER THAN a pile in move

So, during Move Chargers, after the first model has moved, you must check to ensure the following models can also Move.

Page 21, bottom right. Cite the rule that says to check for locked status.
I can cite it for normal movement, shooting, and most importantly for this discussion - overwatch.
You have failed to cite anything that actually stops a charge move other than "It totally does, I'm right."

Are you making a move other than a Pile in move? Yes? Then yo uneed to check , as Locked prevents you from making this move.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are you making a move other than a Pile in move? Yes? Then yo uneed to check , as Locked prevents you from making this move.

You are not. You are making a charge move. Nothing in charge move says to check for locked. Movement says to check for locked, and during declare charge says to check for locked. But again, nothing is stopping the charge move.



I think this has summed up the discussion and it will get circular from here. Is there a point to continuing?

Again: Locked (the state) provides a restrictin on the type of move you are allowed to make.

If you are not making one of those moves, then you must check, otherwise you risk breaking a rule (locked) - and you play the game, usually, by NOT breaking rules

So, while you are explicitly told "check for locked" at other poitns, that is [redundant[/b] as the rules for locked do NOT tell you they only apply after you have checked to see if you are locked.

Yes, it is circular - until you stop making up a requirement (you can only be Locked if you have checked for that status) that doesnt exist.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Are you making a move other than a Pile in move? Yes? Then yo uneed to check , as Locked prevents you from making this move.

That's incorrect. You're explicitly told when to check.
You've refused to cite a rule telling you to check during a charge move.
Refusal noted - please cite a rule or concede.

The rule under "locked" which prevents you frmo making a move other than Pile in requires that you check.

Or are you going to break that rule?

Premise: You are making a non-pile in move.
Known requirement: you may not make non-pile in moves if you are locked
Requirement: you must check if you are locked, even if you are not reminded to.

You are taking a rule that is functionally a reminder (you cannot do X if you are Y, so check if you are Y first) and turning it into a requirement that, if not there, means you are not Y.

Cite a rule allowing you to reformulate the Locked rule into only existing when you are explicitly remninded to check for its existence.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The rule under "locked" which prevents you frmo making a move other than Pile in requires that you check.

Incorrect. We have no permission to check for lock during a charge move. Only prior to declaring a charge are we permitted to check.

Premise: You are making a non-pile in move.
Known requirement: you may not make non-pile in moves if you are locked
Requirement: you must check if you are locked, even if you are not reminded to.

Your "requirement" is a leap and unsupported by any rule. I know this because you've consistently refused to cite one.
Please adhere to the tenets of this forum.

You are taking a rule that is functionally a reminder (you cannot do X if you are Y, so check if you are Y first) and turning it into a requirement that, if not there, means you are not Y.

Yes, I'm using the actual rules as they're written. Big shock that.

Cite a rule allowing you to reformulate the Locked rule into only existing when you are explicitly remninded to check for its existence.

Straw man. Please don't. I'm reformulating nothing. I'm only applying rules when I'm told to apply rules.

So you have to be told to look at a rule before it can apply?

I *have* adhered to the tenets, as I am asking you why you are turning a reminder of a rule (check you are not locked) into the only requirement for said rule to be "present" in the first place

WHere in the Locked rule does it say it only applies when you check to see if it applies?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you have to be told to look at a rule before it can apply?

Well... yes. Or do we apply Out of Sight to all wounds, shooting or not?
Do you

I *have* adhered to the tenets, as I am asking you why you are turning a reminder of a rule (check you are not locked) into the only requirement for said rule to be "present" in the first place

Because it is not just a reminder - if the check wasn't there there's nothing to stop you overwatching no matter when you get charged.

Except Out of Sight mentions shooting, no? So it applies even if we are not *reminded* that out of sight is a rule that exists in the game.

Except you cannot make any shooting attacks while locked. So no, it is still a reminder, even on Overwatch

Locked is a state you can be in, so you have to, before performing an action, check to see if you are in that state. EVen if the rules dont remind you to do so.

Its like asking "have i finished" when writing a program. "Am I locked" is something you check before doing something that lock prohibits (or allows)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Locked is a state you can be in, so you have to, before performing an action, check to see if you are in that state. EVen if the rules dont remind you to do so.

You have yet to prove this assertion with any rules quote. Ever. It's been asked for repeatedly.
Since you're not going to actually provide one, I'm going to go ahead and request that the thread be locked.

One of the first games I played in 6th edition was against an assault heavy army. My opponent and I simply followed the rules for the assault phase that start on page 20. We even have several different units assaulting one unit and I felt that I was able to pick and choose which unit/units I would be overwatching against.

My interpretation of this sub phase is to allow you to declare charges, decide if you are going to overwatch against said unit, roll charge distance, move models, rinse and repeat. My conclusion comes from the two sections on the right hand side of page 22, "Declare next charge" and "Ending the charge sub-phase"

This feels to me as though any rules or restrictions from the previous sub section or the sub section after this would not apply (specifically the "locked in combat" restriction) and you would simple follow the steps as listed until every unit able/capable of charging has either done just that or failed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to add that no where on pages 20 - 22 does it reference any restrictions or even define what "Lock in combat" actually is. This is not mentioned until the following sub phase, after all charges have been declared and overwatch shots resolved.

Cmdr Hindsight wrote:
One of the first games I played in 6th edition was against an assault heavy army. My opponent and I simply followed the rules for the assault phase that start on page 20. We even have several different units assaulting one unit and I felt that I was able to pick and choose which unit/units I would be overwatching against.

My interpretation of this sub phase is to allow you to declare charges, decide if you are going to overwatch against said unit, roll charge distance, move models, rinse and repeat. My conclusion comes from the two sections on the right hand side of page 22, "Declare next charge" and "Ending the charge sub-phase"

This feels to me as though any rules or restrictions from the previous sub section or the sub section after this would not apply (specifically the "locked in combat" restriction) and you would simple follow the steps as listed until every unit able/capable of charging has either done just that or failed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also like to add that no where on pages 20 - 22 does it reference any restrictions or even define what "Lock in combat" actually is. This is not mentioned until the following sub phase, after all charges have been declared and overwatch shots resolved.

It also doesnt define what locked in combat is during the Movement Phase, yet it tells you to check for it... maybe it doesnt apply there... And the shooting phase tells you to check, but doesnt define it.. so now my units can fire while in BTB with the enemy. Interesting.

I guess that is my fault for wording that phrase the way I did. During that specific sub phase it makes NO mention at all of "Lock in combat." However, during the following sub phase it not only mentions it but defines it as well listing restrictions and scenarios which would apply.

Not sure what you mean by that specific subphase but in Resolving Overwatch.


Overwatch Restrictions

It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

Locked in combat is defined on pg. 23 as in btb with an enemy.

Once a charge is completed, the enemy unit is locked in combat by definition. Now whether this is intentional or not, only GW knows. They certainly have enough time to FAQ it. If you dont want to play that way, thats all up to you and HIWPI. But by RAW, the first successful charge will lock a unit.

Premise 1: Locked is an ongoing condition that applies when "Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.

Premise 2: This rule is an ongoing condition that applies in all three phases (Movement, Shooting, and Assault).

Do you concur?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1: Locked is an ongoing condition that applies when "Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.

Premise 2: This rule is an ongoing condition that applies in all three phases (Movement, Shooting, and Assault).

Do you concur?

No.
It's a condition that's tested when you're told to test.

Well you seem to be misunderstanding locked in combat then.

"Units that have one or models in base contact with an enemy are locked in combat." Pg 23 BRB.


When does this rule apply?

answer 1) Only when we are told to check

answer 2) all the time

answer 3) something else that you will post.

Please answer this question.

Fragile wrote:
Not sure what you mean by that specific subphase but in Resolving Overwatch.


Overwatch Restrictions

It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

I guess that is what i get for posting a reply with a 100+ degree fever, thank you for pointing that out.

I still believe that the "Lock In Combat" reference is specific to models that were already locked in combat during the start the phase. If you were to have no prior knowledge of the 40k gaming system, crack open your book, and work through the sequence of events during the charge sub phase, there would be no reason as to why you would not be allowed to fire overwatch against a second unit charging you. But, by pointing out the section I have obviously missed on pg 21 I can see it going either way.

Rigeld - so the reminder "It's worth pointing out" isnt a reminder?

If you ARE in base to base with an enemy you ARE locked in combat. Present tense. So again, please prove that this is a state you ONLY check for when asked to.

Citation required otherwise the "LOCKED" rule, as it is currently written, is a continual state you ARE in once you satisfy the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rigeld - so the reminder "It's worth pointing out" isnt a reminder?

If you ARE in base to base with an enemy you ARE locked in combat. Present tense. So again, please prove that this is a state you ONLY check for when asked to.

Citation required otherwise the "LOCKED" rule, as it is currently written, is a continual state you ARE in once you satisfy the rules.

GW doesn't seem to think so.
Remember that the only rule that shows you cannot move through friendly models is a "reminder"?

Apart from the FAQ, of course.

So again; the rule for LOCKED states it is a continuing state, once you meet the criteria. So, again, provide proof that you only need to check for LOCKED when explicitly reminded to, and at no other time are you considered to be "locked"

Wrong way around - In the middle of the charge move you're told what to check for (difficult/dangerous terrain, etc). I see zero references to checking for outside statuses.

You keep asserting that you'd interrupt the current action to check for that but I see no reference permitting it. You only check for locked one time - before declaring the charge in the first place.