Something that has really bothered me about space marines is their recruitment process (as I know it anyway). Mostly they either go for the psychotic killers or best warriors of a feral planet. Now, I understand that they need them to be able to kill, BUT SURELY with the geneseed and the whole becoming an astartes brute strength simply doesn't matter. Indeed, kind of in the way of Captain America (cheesey reference just popped into my head) wouldn't it be better to go for someone with personal qualities such as cunning, intelligence, charisma? Indeed, even with our modern soldiers the officers tend to be the ones who've had degrees (not always of course) etc. or end up coming from fancy places blah blah blah. So do all space marine chapters recruit in such a manner?
I see where you're coming from, the recruits probably go through so much brainwashing and indoctrination that by the time they're ready for battle they could have been given an entirely new personality anyway. I think the whole thing about choosing the ones with a talent for fighting is an example of them preferring it to sound "grimdark."
I believe the Raven Guard look for more intellectual traits, but you need to realise that the process of being turned into a Marine is itself very traumatic. They have to use the healthiest, strongest recruits or the recruits stand a huge chance of dying on the operating table.
The physical requirements are so the bodies of the recruits have a chance of surviving the transformation process. Only the toughest specimens can survive, and even then not all do. The process not only can it will kill you if you fail it. its very rare for someone to fail and survive at the same time.
The mental and personality traits are programmed in via hypnosis and outright brainwashing. They have no need for the person to remember who they were before their recruitment, that person is dead and has been reborn as Astartes.
LordGirrit wrote:Something that has really bothered me about space marines is their recruitment process (as I know it anyway). Mostly they either go for the psychotic killers or best warriors of a feral planet. Now, I understand that they need them to be able to kill, BUT SURELY with the geneseed and the whole becoming an astartes brute strength simply doesn't matter. Indeed, kind of in the way of Captain America (cheesey reference just popped into my head) wouldn't it be better to go for someone with personal qualities such as cunning, intelligence, charisma? Indeed, even with our modern soldiers the officers tend to be the ones who've had degrees (not always of course) etc. or end up coming from fancy places blah blah blah. So do all space marine chapters recruit in such a manner?
Look at real armies.
They recruit for brute strength, but when looking for Officers they pick intelligent people.
It should also be noted that most SM homeworlds are Feral Worlds, where people have only recently discovered fire, consider a sharp rock a goddam great hand-to-hand weapon, and not only kill their own food, but skin it for clothing.
These mofos, largely, aren't philosophers and scientists. Sure, Blood Angels and Ultramarines and such have advanced worlds to draw from... but then you have Space Wolves, Space Sharks, Minotaurs, Salamanders (semi-civilized on what amounts to a near-Death World planet), and the BT pulling kids off whatever rock they've recently pacified. These guys are going to become Space Marines. They want them equipped to handle a level of combat that would utterly break lesser men.
And, also, as the saying in the IoM goes... a small mind is easily filled with faith. This doesn't have to be a religious creed, but a faith in their Chapter, its teachings, its combat doctrine, and in the Imperium in general.
They recruit for brute strength, but when looking for Officers they pick intelligent people.
Thats how I know you haven't been in the military Just because you have a degree doesn't mean your intelligent. Often, you'll find many lowly Infantry NCOs and enlisted with college degrees. C's get degrees, man.
Psienesis wrote: It should also be noted that most SM homeworlds are Feral Worlds, where people have only recently discovered fire, consider a sharp rock a goddam great hand-to-hand weapon, and not only kill their own food, but skin it for clothing.
These mofos, largely, aren't philosophers and scientists. Sure, Blood Angels and Ultramarines and such have advanced worlds to draw from... but then you have Space Wolves, Space Sharks, Minotaurs, Salamanders (semi-civilized on what amounts to a near-Death World planet), and the BT pulling kids off whatever rock they've recently pacified. These guys are going to become Space Marines. They want them equipped to handle a level of combat that would utterly break lesser men.
And, also, as the saying in the IoM goes... a small mind is easily filled with faith. This doesn't have to be a religious creed, but a faith in their Chapter, its teachings, its combat doctrine, and in the Imperium in general.
And primitive technology =/= stupid. You can still have quite intelligent people from such a source.
They live in a space-faring society. If they haven't yet figured out that a grass yurt on a wind-swept plain does not resist a thunderstorm better than a brick house, then, yeah, they're pretty fething stupid.
If you are spending every day of your life searching for food and trying to survive you are not going to be able to advance your technology. Doesn't mean you are stupid.
Furyou Miko wrote: healthiest, strongest recruits or the recruits stand a huge chance of dying on the operating table.
The Blood Angels recruit malnourished, radiation-blasted desert people.
The geneseed does not care how healthy you are, or how skilled.
Survival has nothing to do with health. The Space Wolves recruit on these criteria:
"Often the the chosen ones are on the pointof death, but as long as their wounds are to the fore, the strangers do not care."
"For my own part, I come down on the side of courage. For courage can sometimes make a virtue of inexperience. I myself have commanded Imperial Guard troops whose probitor units have achieved great things, because they were too inexperienced to realise that their goal was impossible."
They recruit people who are extremely reckless and courageous. You could say that they want every recruit to have enough ambition to become a wolf lord.
Ultramarines, the most structured chapter, recruit children who excel in a structured environment. It is likely they want recruits who make good line soldiers, who work in the system.
SO, OP: The answer is that space marines do not recruit for strength or intelligence per se, it is that the gene seed only works with people who most closely match their gene-seeds' values. After all, the Primarchs were created with warp power, so gene-seed may be inherently warp sensitive material. Making someone into a space marine is effectively grafting nineteen miniature clones of a primarch onto someone's body, and if that material is warp sensitive, then the parties have to be good psychic matches, as well as good tissue matches.
Battle wounds don't exactly count as being unhealthy in this context. And they aren't subjected to the transformation till long after those wounds have healed.
The Space Wolves recruit children who were at the forefront of their village's attack on another village, to take their land and their resources during Fenris' many periods of upheaval. Those injuries they received are injuries from spears, swords and axes... what they're looking for is for kids who didn't turn to run away.
I cannot remember which novel it was in, but I seem to recall an Imperial Guard General explaining to his immediate subordinate why he wasn't happy that they had been supplemented with a Space Marine task force on their current theater of operations. He said something about Space Marines recruiting kids when they are teens and think they are indestructible and unstoppable, and then turn them into Space Marines and keep them in that mindset.
Phiasco II wrote: I cannot remember which novel it was in, but I seem to recall an Imperial Guard General explaining to his immediate subordinate why he wasn't happy that they had been supplemented with a Space Marine task force on their current theater of operations. He said something about Space Marines recruiting kids when they are teens and think they are indestructible and unstoppable, and then turn them into Space Marines and keep them in that mindset.
Dunno, but it sounds awful, lol. Either that or it was the author deliberately showing how the Imperial Guard don't really even know much about the Marines.
Ultimately, it's not really true that Chapters would recruit the strongest children. It would be far more important to them to ensure they are recruiting kids who are biologically compatible with the implants. Geneseed is a limited resource. No matter whether you recruit the skinny kid or the stocky kid, they all end up as seven and a half foot tall bulked out murder machines, because the process of becoming a Space Marine includes genetic and biological manipulation and a series of implanted organs. They make Space Marines. They don't recruit them. The Space Wolves do what they do because it is what they've always done, not because it makes any sense. The mindset of the child you take is irrelevant when you're going to overwrite their entire personality over years of indoctrination.
In fact, since the implantation process says it is supposed to start before the recruit is 12 years old (that's the youngest maximum age on the process), it's entirely likely that recruits are being selected by most chapters at 6-8 years old. Why? Well, it's pretty simple. A Chapter is going to want to make sure that the recruit is capable of receiving the implants, and capable of being mentally conditioned, etc, before they start sticking organs and gene seed in them. And that process probably isn't quick or immediate.
They recruit for brute strength, but when looking for Officers they pick intelligent people.
Thats how I know you haven't been in the military Just because you have a degree doesn't mean your intelligent. Often, you'll find many lowly Infantry NCOs and enlisted with college degrees. C's get degrees, man.
As much as I enjoy poking fun at the officer corps as only existing to perpetuate itself, officer recruiting is pretty strict these days. I had college friends who tried to get in the military and were rejected because their grades weren't good enough.
But, yeah, having a college degree, and even getting good grades is no real indicator of intelligence. And even at that, being smart doesn't necessarily make you a good leader.
Nah, they can tell pretty quickly if the aspirant is compatible with a simple field test. That doesn't mean the process will work, there is still a failure rate of the geneseed being rejected but its cut down considerably.
And aspirants can be selected between the ages of 10 and 16. The process requires the kid to be in the early stages of puberty for the implants to take hold. If its too early or too late the process fails. 6-8 would be way too early.
Grey Templar wrote:And aspirants can be selected between the ages of 10 and 16.
It amazes me how many people get that wrong.
Nope. It's 10-12 and it always has been. A sixteen year old would already be too old for Phases 1-5.
Except the Space Wolves, but that's because they have had so many bad writers, and the Space Wolves are a Viking trope, where the style has always been more important than the substance when it came to some of the fluff writing.
Remember, recruiting varies between chapters. some chapters may give a larger focus to intelligence than another chapter. The more intelligent ones are probably shipped off to become techmarines and apothecaries.
Phiasco II wrote: I cannot remember which novel it was in, but I seem to recall an Imperial Guard General explaining to his immediate subordinate why he wasn't happy that they had been supplemented with a Space Marine task force on their current theater of operations. He said something about Space Marines recruiting kids when they are teens and think they are indestructible and unstoppable, and then turn them into Space Marines and keep them in that mindset.
Dunno, but it sounds awful, lol. Either that or it was the author deliberately showing how the Imperial Guard don't really even know much about the Marines.
Yeah, it was definitely the commanders opinion, and he was kinda a dick anyway and got almost everyone killed.
Grey Templar wrote: Nah, they can tell pretty quickly if the aspirant is compatible with a simple field test. That doesn't mean the process will work, there is still a failure rate of the geneseed being rejected but its cut down considerably.
And aspirants can be selected between the ages of 10 and 16. The process requires the kid to be in the early stages of puberty for the implants to take hold. If its too early or too late the process fails. 6-8 would be way too early.
Plus, the other thing is that selecting them early isn't about the implantation process. It's about everything else that goes into be a Space Marine. Discipline, combats skills, drills, and knowledge. Teamwork, small unit tactics. Psycho-contiditioning and programming. Love thy Emprah and all that jazz.
Building a Space Marine starts at 10-12 when the start jamming all the goodies into his body. But that's just the part that involves surgery and gene therapies. But you can't implant knowing no fear, and obedience lol. That stuff has to be conditioned. You can't implant muscle memory and trained responses, they have to be practiced.
Under "recruiting for intelligence" it's largely unnecessary, as the Marine's brain is not only given a new persona, but is also modified for intelligence. From what I remember of reading the SM codex, and the "Ultramarines Omnibus" they are far more intelligent than any normal human.
Therefore the only thing they need to look for in a recruit is the ability to survive the training, and genetic compatibility.
The thing is, the world of 40K is like modern Earth would be after the Soviets and Nazis won WW2 and split the world between them. There isn't any fundamental difference between the Imperium and Chaos in terms of what happens to the people.
The Space Marines cannot be recruited for raw intelligence. Anyone intelligent would see through the deception.
As far as I know, Marines simply develop intelligence and battle smarts while on crusade or whatever, and those that don't die and are replaced with other, better Scouts... You have to remember that Scouts have to survive, sometimes hundreds of battles before they are elected to become a marine, they must have had some kind of mental wit to stay alive for that long, eh? ;D
You could be a super genius and it wouldn't matter. All your education would be cast aside when the Librarians remove all the useless knowlege from your mind.
They put everything in your head that you need, like how to speak gothic, what the names of everyone in your chapter are, where the bathrooms are in the fortress.
They remove the useless stuff, who your mother is and what she looks like, your favorite pet, the biology classes you took (thats the work of the Magos Biologis afterall).
I suppose the chapters with a bigger eye for strategy such as the Imperial Fists could see intelligence as a helpful, but even then they take recruits from street gangs of hive worlds.
If you want to put your intelligence to proper use, you'd join the Inquisition or the Adeptus Mechanicus.
When you buy a hammer, do you buy that hammer because, it will help you choose the best type of nail for your particular job, cook you dinner, and help your wife pick out a dress. OR do you buy that hammer, because it can hit stuff hard.......
Eldercaveman wrote: When you buy a hammer, do you buy that hammer because, it will help you choose the best type of nail for your particular job, cook you dinner, and help your wife pick out a dress. OR do you buy that hammer, because it can hit stuff hard.......
Marines are surgical tools. They be recruited for power and natural ability, like a scalpel. Quite powerful when used correctly, and is a specialised tool.
Well actually the act of managing to kill and survive makes the Space Marine-initiate very intelligent, he is a gritty survivor, and most of them likely has has killed before their balls have dropped, and with that I mean up close and personal with their fists. I think of the Space Marine-initiates as very creepy children that could beat a grown man to death with his own arms much like Mike Tyson was before he turned boxer.
Then the kids are educated, which means they pick up the gravy.
when a child is recruited at such a young age, they have very little in the way intelligence, because they are young. they only have strength and whatever emotional structure their upbringing has given them.
then the chapter takes them and educates them.
the stupid ones don't learn, so they die.
the smart ones learn, survive and thrive.
then the smart ones kill every fething thing they're ordered to.
BrotherTitus wrote: when a child is recruited at such a young age, they have very little in the way intelligence, because they are young. they only have strength and whatever emotional structure their upbringing has given them.
then the chapter takes them and educates them.
the stupid ones don't learn, so they die.
the smart ones learn, survive and thrive.
then the smart ones kill every fething thing they're ordered to.
Rote memorization is not a sign of intelligence, not truly, it's just a sign of having a capacity for memory. Besides, most things a Space Marine knows isn't taught to him, it's hypno-indoctrinated into him.
Beaviz81 wrote: Well actually the act of managing to kill and survive makes the Space Marine-initiate very intelligent
An animal is capable of killing and surviving. That does not mean that the animal has some sort of vast intellect.
Some Chapters do emphasise intellect, though. The Mentors and Blood Ravens being prime examples. Yes their primary role is combat, but it's incorrect to paint them all as simple-minded killing machines.
Void__Dragon wrote: Space Marines are warrior monks. They are, in fact, often quite intelligent. More-so than guardsmen most of the time.
They've been quite stupid from my readings of black library.
This is a fair point, I have this idea in my head that Space Marines should be intelligent - they have long lifespans and surely there's time for them to study things other than war, plus I like the idea of them being warrior-scholars, being almost a separate species to the humans they came from, willing to respect an honourable foe, etc etc. But I've been put off reading Space Marine novels because it feels to me like a lot of the time they're portrayed as acting like overgrown and extremely heavily armed children, running around doing immature things like turning battles into a competition and holding grudges over petty slights. Not all BL Marines are like that, but enough have been to put me off.
It's not just them, though. I also get frustrated when books about Imperial Guard descend into things like regiments endangering the mission because of their prejudices or ancestral rivalries, which I've seen in several stories including Gaunt's Ghosts books. I would rather read about professionals who fight the enemy, not supposed soldiers jeopardising the mission with petty squabbles.
Void__Dragon wrote: An intelligence of 40 compared to 25 in the FFGRPGs, ohohohoho.
Humans can max out their intelligence at 70-80 or so, with a bonus of somewhere around 28-36, whereas the average Space Marine maxes out at 60-70, with a bonus of maybe around 12-14. Effectively, that makes these humans twice as smart as the smartest marine.
Furthermore, humans can have far, FAR more lore skills than he will ever be able to obtain no matter how hard he tries. The average, inexperienced and undeveloped human-- IE the basic Dark Heresy character-- is at 30 intelligence. and the Deathwatch Marines are veteran Space Marines to start off with, not newly made initiates, meaning that they are just marginally more intelligent than the average human... AFTER gaining decades or even centuries of battlefield experience. And many of them are actually LESS knowledgeable about the universe than a human with half a decade of experience under their belt.
If you're going to use FFGRPGs in the discussion, you should really do more research. FFG actually agrees with my assertions. Nothing in the Deathwatch RPG actually makes Marines inherently smarter than humans.
The Imperium is not a well-oiled machine consisting of professionals for the most part.
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Melissia wrote: Humans can max out their intelligence at 70-80 or so, with a bonus of somewhere around 28-36, whereas the average Space Marine maxes out at 60-70, with a bonus of maybe around 12-14. Effectively, that makes these humans twice as smart as the smartest marine.
Furthermore, humans can have far, FAR more lore skills than he will ever be able to obtain no matter how hard he tries. The average, inexperienced and undeveloped human-- IE the basic Dark Heresy character-- is at 30 intelligence. and the Deathwatch Marines are veteran Space Marines to start off with, not newly made initiates, meaning that they are just marginally more intelligent than the average human... AFTER gaining decades or even centuries of battlefield experience. And many of them are actually LESS knowledgeable about the universe than a human with half a decade of experience under their belt.
If you're going to use FFGRPGs in the discussion, you should really do more research. FFG actually agrees with my assertions. Nothing in the Deathwatch RPG actually makes Marines inherently smarter than humans.
I wasn't using PCs because they are intended to be exceptional. Even a starting Dark Heresy character is usually above the common human being in quite a few regards. That you think they represent the average is hilarious. They are acolytes, chosen to be so because they are special. Rank 1-3 acolytes are explicitly such because they are "promising", the only question being if they will have what it takes.
I was using the average. Aka, the bestiary statistics. Compare the average Imperial guardsman or civilian's intelligence and knowledge to that of a Space Marine's.
Please refrain from asking others to do more research while making incredibly faulty arguments.
Average human is between 25 and 35 (actually, it's closer to 31, but be that as it may).
This isn't just PCs. As for the Space Marine stats, again, those stats are for veterans. A veteran human may very well be far smarter than a Space Marine, depending on what their experiences required. That's despite having fewer years to become a veteran.
Void__Dragon wrote: Please refrain from asking others to do more research while making incredibly faulty arguments.
If I had made one, this might be applicable. I didn't, however, so it is not.
Okay, I will explain further. I did not think this necessary, but apparently it is.
Open up your Black Crusade rulebook, and go to the adversaries chapter, and then the Forces of the Imperium segment. It gives statistics for both the average, bog-standard guardsman, and the average Space Marine.
The Imperial Guardsman has an intelligence of 28.
The average Marine?
40.
The Marine also has three lore skills, compared to the guardsman's one.
Now open up Dark Heresy's core rulebook.
The random citizen of the Imperium, on page 338, has an intelligence of 20.
I grow weary of this argument Melissia.
"A Space Marine is no mere man. He is a
superhuman being, born of scientific manipulation and
genetic modification, as different from humankind as
steel is from iron. Through years of the most
exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament
of the Space Marine's mind and body are forged into
that of a warrior supreme, with battle-skills and
faculty of reason that far surpass those of the
common man."
- Space Marine Codex, page 5
So there you go. Space Marines are more intelligent on average than mortals.
I brought up FFG mostly as a joke, Melissia simply had the audacity to argue seriously with it, as well as insinuating I had not, in fact, done my research.
BrotherTitus wrote: when a child is recruited at such a young age, they have very little in the way intelligence, because they are young. they only have strength and whatever emotional structure their upbringing has given them.
then the chapter takes them and educates them.
the stupid ones don't learn, so they die.
the smart ones learn, survive and thrive.
then the smart ones kill every fething thing they're ordered to.
Knowledge does not necessarily = intelligence, but for the rest of your post, you are correct.
Them smart ones out-wit the idiots.
I have no need to concede anything. You have not yet actually proven taht there is anything in the Space Marine creation process that increases their intelligence.
Which you won't, of course, since there isn't anything there for you to use.
Beavis, just because I don't view them as unstoppable Mary Sue gods of war like you do doesn't mean that I hate Space Marines.
Melissia wrote: I have no need to concede anything. You have not yet actually proven taht there is anything in the Space Marine creation process that increases their intelligence.
Not that I ever claimed that mind you, I simply said on average a Marine is more intelligent than a guardsman or a civilian.
But of course, the only way you know how to debate is with strawmen.
"A Space Marine is no mere man. He is a
superhuman being, born of scientific manipulation and
genetic modification, as different from humankind as
steel is from iron. Through years of the most
exhaustive and rigorous training, the rough firmament
of the Space Marine's mind and body are forged into
that of a warrior supreme, with battle-skills and
faculty of reason that far surpass those of the
common man."
- Space Marine Codex, page 5
So there you go. Space Marines are more intelligent on average than mortals.
This is, in fact, empirical evidence that the Space Marine creation process, be it the explicit genetic tampering or the indoctrination, improves the intelligence of a Marine beyond that of the common man or woman.
Melissa sorry but you are incorrect. Space Marines are given Eidetic memory and cognitive enhancements via hypno therapy and other means. Their minds are also engineered. At the very least that is how BL portrays them, but I am quite sure there are several mentions and allusions in GW main product as well.
amanita wrote: It can be very hard to convincingly portray great intellect when an author doesn't actually have it.
Well, it's also pretty hard to show great intellect if all you do in the novel is say "For the Emperor" and shoot orks with your bolter. Or maybe chop them in half with your power sword.
MajorTom11 wrote: Space Marines are given Eidetic memory and cognitive enhancements via hypno therapy and other means.
That's an artificial improvement that is not unique to Space Marines. As such , I don't count it.
Otherwise we would end up counting the massive intellect of the various Mechanicus personnel, which would skew the human intellect average way up since they artificially augment their intelligence as a matter of course.
Void__Dragon wrote: But of course, the only way you know how to debate is with strawmen.
Ironic, coming from you.
I don't think you understand what "empirical" means regardless.
Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Obviously, physical requirements matter more (to ensure they survive the implantation process), but it's not like they have to settle for just that. They can have it all.
I'm going to have to support Melissia here. I can't find anything in particular where it specifically states that intelligence and things like tactical capability are increased simply by being a space marine biologically. Sure you may get enhanced mental capacity or processing but that in itself doesn't make you smarter or have enhanced intellect. It probably helps a lot more with the hypno-indoctrination and various other dogma enforced onto them but otherwise seems to leave them intact in terms of their original overall intelligence. Again I think the Space Marines like humanity in general have roughly the same level of intelligence in that they vary from person to person rather than the general sub-species of Adeptus Astartes being intellectually superior to regular Homo Sapiens.
Heck looking at a tactical viewpoint no Space Marine has yet to match Lord Solar Macharius, a "lowly" human in efficiently conquering so many planets in a short amount of time.
Void__Dragon wrote: I have provided explicit proof that Space Marines have superior intelligence
No, you haven't.
Especially not within the context of this thread. None of the Astartes genetic implants increase the Astartes' creativity, problem solving ability, or anything that might represent an increase in intellectual capacity. At most, his learning capability is slightly increased due to the ability to learn by eating... but the depiction of this ability is so inconsistent that I'd go so far as to say that it's highly unreliable at best. And that's not really a representation of intelligence (nor does it really make any sense to begin with).
Well, the current SM codex DOES refer to a captain being able to simultaneously understand the entirety of what's going on on an entire battlefield at once, and that they can multitask at inhuman levels.
Not a result of the biological methods of creating a space marine, perhaps, but certainly the result of all that rigorous mental training they have.
In any case, space marines run along that endlessly dangerous line between the creativity required to conquer an entire planet in 24 hours, and having enough creativity to instantly become a heretic.
reaper with no name wrote: Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Unless the best happen to be female, or happen to have incompatible genetics, or happen to be too old at the time that the Astartes are recruiting, or are on the wrong side of the planet, or are on the wrong planet period, etc etc etc. You could be the most physically fit candidate, with a willpower of steel and the most powerful mind on the planet, but if you are too old, or too far away, or happen to be the half of the population that's female, you won't be recruited as an initiate. And if you're not close enough in genetics, you'll die in the implantation process, or if you're lucky you'll be scanned first and become a chapter serf-- assuming they find you to begin with.
Space Marines don't recruit from "the best", unless you limit "the best" to a very, very small portion of the planet's population, and an infinitesimally small portion of the Imperial population. Numerous excellent candidates are overlooked, missed, or simply not at the right place at the right time to be recruited as Astartes for various reasons. Or, quite simply, Astartes do NOT recruit "the best". Some chapters even have incredibly stupid recruitment standards even beyond all of this that further limits them from recruiting "the best", such as Salamanders.
reaper with no name wrote: Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Unless the best happen to be female, or happen to have incompatible genetics, or happen to be too old at the time that the Astartes are recruiting, or are on the wrong side of the planet, or are on the wrong planet period, etc etc etc. You could be the most physically fit candidate, with a willpower of steel and the most powerful mind on the planet, but if you are too old, or too far away, or happen to be the half of the population that's female, you won't be recruited as an initiate. And if you're not close enough in genetics, you'll die in the implantation process, or if you're lucky you'll be scanned first and become a chapter serf-- assuming they find you to begin with.
Space Marines don't recruit from "the best", unless you limit "the best" to a very, very small portion of the planet's population, and an infinitesimally small portion of the Imperial population. Numerous excellent candidates are overlooked, missed, or simply not at the right place at the right time to be recruited as Astartes for various reasons. Or, quite simply, Astartes do NOT recruit "the best". Some chapters even have incredibly stupid recruitment standards even beyond all of this that further limits them from recruiting "the best", such as Salamanders.
The other option is to dump a bundle of people in an arena and see who survives.
To me it seems that the mental and physical traits of potential recruits do not matter much. The training and rebuilding the recruits into a Astartes should by far overshadows any difference in initial quality of the recruits. Genetic compatibility is the only real requirement and, I guess, willpower to survive the process.
However Chapter's are not known for their cold rationality. They are very religious institutions steeped in tradition and ceremony, which is why they tend to have unique elements in their recruitment process.
After all if you belive yourselves to be an elite organisation who you let into your club in a way helps defines you.
LordGirrit wrote:Something that has really bothered me about space marines is their recruitment process (as I know it anyway). Mostly they either go for the psychotic killers or best warriors of a feral planet. Now, I understand that they need them to be able to kill, BUT SURELY with the geneseed and the whole becoming an astartes brute strength simply doesn't matter. Indeed, kind of in the way of Captain America (cheesey reference just popped into my head) wouldn't it be better to go for someone with personal qualities such as cunning, intelligence, charisma? Indeed, even with our modern soldiers the officers tend to be the ones who've had degrees (not always of course) etc. or end up coming from fancy places blah blah blah. So do all space marine chapters recruit in such a manner?
Look at real armies.
They recruit for brute strength, but when looking for Officers they pick intelligent people.
Hving known some absolute feth head officers, I have to say that they only succeed half the time.
Although, the vast majority of them were Army or Navy, most of the RM officers were spot on.
reaper with no name wrote: Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Unless the best happen to be female, or happen to have incompatible genetics, or happen to be too old at the time that the Astartes are recruiting, or are on the wrong side of the planet, or are on the wrong planet period, etc etc etc. You could be the most physically fit candidate, with a willpower of steel and the most powerful mind on the planet, but if you are too old, or too far away, or happen to be the half of the population that's female, you won't be recruited as an initiate. And if you're not close enough in genetics, you'll die in the implantation process, or if you're lucky you'll be scanned first and become a chapter serf-- assuming they find you to begin with.
Space Marines don't recruit from "the best", unless you limit "the best" to a very, very small portion of the planet's population, and an infinitesimally small portion of the Imperial population. Numerous excellent candidates are overlooked, missed, or simply not at the right place at the right time to be recruited as Astartes for various reasons. Or, quite simply, Astartes do NOT recruit "the best". Some chapters even have incredibly stupid recruitment standards even beyond all of this that further limits them from recruiting "the best", such as Salamanders.
Very well, then. They recruit the best of all areas that fit the necessary requirements. I apologize for not phrasing it properly.
And yes, "the best" is a very tiny portion of any given planet's population. That's supposed to be part of the whole "spess mahreenz are da bestest" thing. Gene seed is a precious resource. You don't waste it on people that aren't up to your standards (at least not as a general rule), because you want to make the absolute most of it.
As for some chapters having silly recruitment requirements, well, I won't disagree with that.
Firehead158 wrote: Just because you have a degree doesn't mean your intelligent. Often, you'll find many lowly Infantry NCOs and enlisted with college degrees. C's get degrees, man.
I think the army isn't after intelligence with the degrees. They see a degree as proof that you have the necessary discipline to complete a task within the guidelines set by the school, and enough education that you can write a coherent report if needed.
If you took a look at all modern athletes and said "We're recruiting from the best of all athletes, but exclude women, those who are swarthy, people of dark skin color or African descent, non-Christians, those who are not genetically similar enough to me, and those who are older than sixteen", you'd not get a list of "the best".
They may choose the best to try and become marines but whether they are the ones who survive all that you have to go through to become marines or not is a different story.
Void__Dragon wrote: I have provided explicit proof that Space Marines have superior intelligence
No, you haven't.
"Faculty of reason far surpassing that of the common man".
Especially not within the context of this thread. None of the Astartes genetic implants increase the Astartes' creativity, problem solving ability, or anything that might represent an increase in intellectual capacity.
You can't tell, of course, because none of them do. Making up fluff to suit your interpretation is fine, but that's no reason to be so hostile when someone disagrees.
Sorry, meant that it could be the implants or the indoctrination. Which one causes it is fairly irrelevant.
Oh, and I looked up Index Astartes too, for fun.
Actually, it is indeed the indoctrination that does it, page 9 of Index Astartes note that Marines have "extraordinary minds too", detailing some of the benefits of such (Photographic memory, enhanced mental processing, etc.), but does note what I've also said, that "individual minds may vary".
Not really. Every codex says that their army is better. Sisters of Battle has it that they are the "shining example of all that is good about humanity", which could easily mean that they're all geniuses and uber strong and oh so good and pure and everything wonderful and nice while also being utter badasses who don't afraid of anything. Does it mean that? Or is it just an example, much like the quote you provided, of codices trying to make the army it's about look cool?"
Which means, as I have been saying all along, nothing that's inherent to being a Space Marine makes them smart. That combined with the fact that Space Marines don't recruit off of intelligence, means that they aren't really smarter than the average human. Again, if we're going to start counting artificial upgrades that can be applied to anyone and aren't faction-specific, the human average will jump WAY up and they're arguably going to end up smarter than Space Marines due to the presence of the Mechanicum and its ubiquitous intelligence upgrades.
Melissia wrote: Not really. Every codex says that their army is better. Sisters of Battle has it that they are the "shining example of all that is good about humanity", which could easily mean that they're all geniuses and uber strong and oh so good and pure and everything wonderful and nice while also being utter badasses who don't afraid of anything. Does it mean that? Or is it just an example, much like the quote you provided, of codices trying to make the army it's about look cool?"
Interesting how easily you have overlooked the inherent difference between the two quotes.
The Space Marine quote is a direct comparison of intelligence. "Faculty of reason". It is specific.
The Sister of Battle quote? Vague.
It would be one thing if the Sisters of Battle have a quote that says they are more formidable physical specimens than the common rung of humanity or are smarter than the average bloke. But they don't.
Though to be honest, I wouldn't put it past even an unarmored Sister of Battle to be physically stronger, quicker, and sharper than most humans, due to their schooling and training.
(Hint: It's the latter in both cases.)Which means, as I have been saying all along, nothing that's inherent to being a Space Marine makes them smart. That combined with the fact that Space Marines don't recruit off of intelligence, means that they aren't really smarter than the average human. Again, if we're going to start counting artificial upgrades that can be applied to anyone and aren't faction-specific, the human average will jump WAY up and they're arguably going to end up smarter than Space Marines due to the presence of the Mechanicum and its ubiquitous intelligence upgrades.
Space Marines can't use Mechanicus intelligence upgrades why now? Yeah, think about it.
See, here is the thing: Those "upgrades" are only stated to be used on Marines, last I checked. And more than that, they apply to every Marine, enhancing their mind beyond what is normal for a human being. "Normal", as in, average.
You're trying to argue against Space Marines being statistically smarter by using outliers. I don't doubt that your average Inquisitor is at least on par with a Space Marine mentally (Probably above), and your average Tech Priest is certainly above them. But the average man, or guardsman? No, they are intellectually inferior.
Anyway, no longer being led off-topic by particular individuals, the reason Space Marines don't necessarily look for intelligence within individuals is because the process of making a Space Marine will generally make them of above par intelligence.
So to sum up, space marines don't really recruit for intelligence because it just isn't necessary. Their mental acuity will be heightened as a part of their development as marines.
Intelligence is not a virtue in the Imperium. Blind faith is. A Legion that tried to have the smartest guys around would probably be the Alpha Legion and look how that turned out.
The Alpha Legion weren't really that smart. In the fluff, Alpharius never came up with anything tremendously innovative. In fact, Guilliman put down his tactics as wasteful, which means they were things that Guilliman had already considered, and discarded as inefficient given the mission of the Space Marine Legions.
What the Alpha Legion was, was arrogant. In the original fluff for the Heresy, the Alpha Legion were swayed to Horus's cause because they couldn't think of anything more challenging than fighting other Space Marines.
If you took a look at all modern athletes and said "We're recruiting from the best of all athletes, but exclude women, those who are swarthy, people of dark skin color or African descent, non-Christians, those who are not genetically similar enough to me, and those who are older than sixteen", you'd not get a list of "the best".
I used "the best" in quotes for a reason. Specifically, it was to note that "the best" refers to the best in all categories that still meet the necessary requirements.
The point I was trying to get at was, even if, say, 3/4 of the best people within the proper age range are disqualified from being a space marine due to gender or genetics (personality wouldn't matter, as that will be rewritten, and I've seen nothing to suggest skin color is a factor; space marines are white supposedly because the genetic modifications change their skin color), that still leaves 1/4 of the best who are compatible.
And those would be the ones that space marines recruit.
If you took a look at all modern athletes and said "We're recruiting from the best of all athletes, but exclude women, those who are swarthy, people of dark skin color or African descent, non-Christians, those who are not genetically similar enough to me, and those who are older than sixteen", you'd not get a list of "the best".
1 Male athletes 9 times out of 10 will outperform their female counter parts + the fact that the geneseed is not compatible with with a female makes the argument of why femals are not counted among the best moot
2 There is an age cut off as to being able to recieve the geneseed.
The best out of the pool of people on a planet actually able to potentially be fitted with the geneseed are chosen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In Soul hunter it is mentioned that Talos needed have a certain level of grade point average in school to be considered for the Nightlords.
It's not about gender, I was mentioning the simple facts that Space Marines don't recruit the best simply because they have an EXTREMELY limited recruitment pool. Even them recruiting from a mere 1/4th of the population of a single world per chapter would be a wider pool than they currently recruit from.
Women are too genetically different to be space marines, however, a brother and sister from one family have closer genetics than the brother does with a son of another family. Effectively, the Space Marine recruitment plan (as GW describes it) would only be able to follow specific, rather inbred families. Fun times to be had for all.
If you're wondering what this has to do with the thread, keep in mind, if they don't recruit for genetics first, they'll have fatalities due to genetic mismatch of the implants. So intelligence, when it IS important to specific chapters, is still second to genetic compatibility.
godking wrote: Male athletes 9 times out of 10 will outperform their female counter parts.
True, as long as the sport requires raw strength or endurance. Once it gets to coordination and hand-eye interaction a female can get even. Right now they're actually better shots than men, and sometimes swim faster as the route increases in length.. Hmm... Helene Mayer also beat the male US fencing champion in 1938, but was disqualified (and female vs male matches banned) because the fencing commission thought "men couldn't go all-out vs women". As if modern fencing was actually a contact sport in the sense that you might injure the other party. Leg injuries from bad moves are the most common injuries there, and those can't really be considered as caused by the other party. ;-)
edit: and ofc, those are sports. Where the best of the best compete. I know several women who could beat me, either through raw endurance/strength (farm girls) or speed (anyone not overweight and out of shape as I am). And a few from martial arts training that can do it through superior technique as I'm not fast or strong enough to counter that advantage. Saw one of those good technique girls stumped too once - a two meter tall 120 kilogram teddybear of a man just picked her up and held her at arm's length, which was considerable. She would have had to break his fingers one by one in order to get anywhere and wisely decided to not cripple a sparring partner in a friendly MA club.
Void__Dragon wrote: I was actually talking about the guy who responded to you bringing the "Men are stronger and more athletic than women" angle into the thread.
Just because you have a degree doesn't mean your intelligent. Often, you'll find many lowly Infantry NCOs and enlisted with college degrees. C's get degrees, man.
