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2013/06/02 04:56:31
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
amanita wrote: It can be very hard to convincingly portray great intellect when an author doesn't actually have it.
Well, it's also pretty hard to show great intellect if all you do in the novel is say "For the Emperor" and shoot orks with your bolter. Or maybe chop them in half with your power sword.
2013/06/02 07:14:17
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
LordGirrit wrote:wouldn't it be better to go for someone with personal qualities such as cunning, intelligence, charisma?
Welcome to Chaos Space Marines. I hope you enjoy your stay.
Because it had to be posted.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Think of a daemon incursion like a fart you don't quite trust... you could either toot a little puff of air, bellow a great effluvium, or utterly sh*t your pants and cry as it floods down your leg.
2013/06/02 07:28:15
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
MajorTom11 wrote: Space Marines are given Eidetic memory and cognitive enhancements via hypno therapy and other means.
That's an artificial improvement that is not unique to Space Marines. As such , I don't count it.
Otherwise we would end up counting the massive intellect of the various Mechanicus personnel, which would skew the human intellect average way up since they artificially augment their intelligence as a matter of course.
Void__Dragon wrote: But of course, the only way you know how to debate is with strawmen.
Ironic, coming from you.
I don't think you understand what "empirical" means regardless.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/02 07:31:55
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/06/02 07:36:20
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Obviously, physical requirements matter more (to ensure they survive the implantation process), but it's not like they have to settle for just that. They can have it all.
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
Justicar Thawn: Thanks GFMGL!
2013/06/02 08:01:02
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
I'm going to have to support Melissia here. I can't find anything in particular where it specifically states that intelligence and things like tactical capability are increased simply by being a space marine biologically. Sure you may get enhanced mental capacity or processing but that in itself doesn't make you smarter or have enhanced intellect. It probably helps a lot more with the hypno-indoctrination and various other dogma enforced onto them but otherwise seems to leave them intact in terms of their original overall intelligence. Again I think the Space Marines like humanity in general have roughly the same level of intelligence in that they vary from person to person rather than the general sub-species of Adeptus Astartes being intellectually superior to regular Homo Sapiens.
Heck looking at a tactical viewpoint no Space Marine has yet to match Lord Solar Macharius, a "lowly" human in efficiently conquering so many planets in a short amount of time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/02 17:44:49
2013/06/02 08:07:09
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Void__Dragon wrote: I have provided explicit proof that Space Marines have superior intelligence
No, you haven't.
Especially not within the context of this thread. None of the Astartes genetic implants increase the Astartes' creativity, problem solving ability, or anything that might represent an increase in intellectual capacity. At most, his learning capability is slightly increased due to the ability to learn by eating... but the depiction of this ability is so inconsistent that I'd go so far as to say that it's highly unreliable at best. And that's not really a representation of intelligence (nor does it really make any sense to begin with).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/06/02 08:46:55
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/06/02 08:45:53
Subject: Re:Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Well, the current SM codex DOES refer to a captain being able to simultaneously understand the entirety of what's going on on an entire battlefield at once, and that they can multitask at inhuman levels.
Not a result of the biological methods of creating a space marine, perhaps, but certainly the result of all that rigorous mental training they have.
In any case, space marines run along that endlessly dangerous line between the creativity required to conquer an entire planet in 24 hours, and having enough creativity to instantly become a heretic.
reaper with no name wrote: Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Unless the best happen to be female, or happen to have incompatible genetics, or happen to be too old at the time that the Astartes are recruiting, or are on the wrong side of the planet, or are on the wrong planet period, etc etc etc. You could be the most physically fit candidate, with a willpower of steel and the most powerful mind on the planet, but if you are too old, or too far away, or happen to be the half of the population that's female, you won't be recruited as an initiate. And if you're not close enough in genetics, you'll die in the implantation process, or if you're lucky you'll be scanned first and become a chapter serf-- assuming they find you to begin with.
Space Marines don't recruit from "the best", unless you limit "the best" to a very, very small portion of the planet's population, and an infinitesimally small portion of the Imperial population. Numerous excellent candidates are overlooked, missed, or simply not at the right place at the right time to be recruited as Astartes for various reasons. Or, quite simply, Astartes do NOT recruit "the best". Some chapters even have incredibly stupid recruitment standards even beyond all of this that further limits them from recruiting "the best", such as Salamanders.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/02 08:58:47
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/06/02 12:55:02
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
reaper with no name wrote: Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Unless the best happen to be female, or happen to have incompatible genetics, or happen to be too old at the time that the Astartes are recruiting, or are on the wrong side of the planet, or are on the wrong planet period, etc etc etc. You could be the most physically fit candidate, with a willpower of steel and the most powerful mind on the planet, but if you are too old, or too far away, or happen to be the half of the population that's female, you won't be recruited as an initiate. And if you're not close enough in genetics, you'll die in the implantation process, or if you're lucky you'll be scanned first and become a chapter serf-- assuming they find you to begin with.
Space Marines don't recruit from "the best", unless you limit "the best" to a very, very small portion of the planet's population, and an infinitesimally small portion of the Imperial population. Numerous excellent candidates are overlooked, missed, or simply not at the right place at the right time to be recruited as Astartes for various reasons. Or, quite simply, Astartes do NOT recruit "the best". Some chapters even have incredibly stupid recruitment standards even beyond all of this that further limits them from recruiting "the best", such as Salamanders.
The other option is to dump a bundle of people in an arena and see who survives.
2013/06/02 13:42:18
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
To me it seems that the mental and physical traits of potential recruits do not matter much. The training and rebuilding the recruits into a Astartes should by far overshadows any difference in initial quality of the recruits. Genetic compatibility is the only real requirement and, I guess, willpower to survive the process.
However Chapter's are not known for their cold rationality. They are very religious institutions steeped in tradition and ceremony, which is why they tend to have unique elements in their recruitment process.
After all if you belive yourselves to be an elite organisation who you let into your club in a way helps defines you.
2013/06/02 13:59:37
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
LordGirrit wrote:Something that has really bothered me about space marines is their recruitment process (as I know it anyway). Mostly they either go for the psychotic killers or best warriors of a feral planet. Now, I understand that they need them to be able to kill, BUT SURELY with the geneseed and the whole becoming an astartes brute strength simply doesn't matter. Indeed, kind of in the way of Captain America (cheesey reference just popped into my head) wouldn't it be better to go for someone with personal qualities such as cunning, intelligence, charisma? Indeed, even with our modern soldiers the officers tend to be the ones who've had degrees (not always of course) etc. or end up coming from fancy places blah blah blah. So do all space marine chapters recruit in such a manner?
Look at real armies.
They recruit for brute strength, but when looking for Officers they pick intelligent people.
Hving known some absolute feth head officers, I have to say that they only succeed half the time.
Although, the vast majority of them were Army or Navy, most of the RM officers were spot on.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
2013/06/03 03:31:45
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
reaper with no name wrote: Going back to the original topic (who cares whether or not space marines are more intelligent than the average person), who says the space marines don't recruit for intelligence?
Space marines take the best. They don't need to pick between the guy who is strong, the guy that is smart, the guy that is fast, the guy that is tough, and so on. They can take those two dozen from the entire planet that have all of them in spades.
Unless the best happen to be female, or happen to have incompatible genetics, or happen to be too old at the time that the Astartes are recruiting, or are on the wrong side of the planet, or are on the wrong planet period, etc etc etc. You could be the most physically fit candidate, with a willpower of steel and the most powerful mind on the planet, but if you are too old, or too far away, or happen to be the half of the population that's female, you won't be recruited as an initiate. And if you're not close enough in genetics, you'll die in the implantation process, or if you're lucky you'll be scanned first and become a chapter serf-- assuming they find you to begin with.
Space Marines don't recruit from "the best", unless you limit "the best" to a very, very small portion of the planet's population, and an infinitesimally small portion of the Imperial population. Numerous excellent candidates are overlooked, missed, or simply not at the right place at the right time to be recruited as Astartes for various reasons. Or, quite simply, Astartes do NOT recruit "the best". Some chapters even have incredibly stupid recruitment standards even beyond all of this that further limits them from recruiting "the best", such as Salamanders.
Very well, then. They recruit the best of all areas that fit the necessary requirements. I apologize for not phrasing it properly.
And yes, "the best" is a very tiny portion of any given planet's population. That's supposed to be part of the whole "spess mahreenz are da bestest" thing. Gene seed is a precious resource. You don't waste it on people that aren't up to your standards (at least not as a general rule), because you want to make the absolute most of it.
As for some chapters having silly recruitment requirements, well, I won't disagree with that.
Saint Celestine: I used to think that being an immortal warrior of the God Emperor made relationships impossible. But then Gamers For Marines Getting Laid introduced me to a man just like me!
Justicar Thawn: Thanks GFMGL!
2013/06/03 04:01:36
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Firehead158 wrote: Just because you have a degree doesn't mean your intelligent. Often, you'll find many lowly Infantry NCOs and enlisted with college degrees. C's get degrees, man.
I think the army isn't after intelligence with the degrees. They see a degree as proof that you have the necessary discipline to complete a task within the guidelines set by the school, and enough education that you can write a coherent report if needed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/03 04:01:49
2013/06/03 04:25:13
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
If you took a look at all modern athletes and said "We're recruiting from the best of all athletes, but exclude women, those who are swarthy, people of dark skin color or African descent, non-Christians, those who are not genetically similar enough to me, and those who are older than sixteen", you'd not get a list of "the best".
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/06/03 04:26:23
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/06/03 04:53:21
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
They may choose the best to try and become marines but whether they are the ones who survive all that you have to go through to become marines or not is a different story.
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2013/06/03 05:52:26
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Void__Dragon wrote: I have provided explicit proof that Space Marines have superior intelligence
No, you haven't.
"Faculty of reason far surpassing that of the common man".
Especially not within the context of this thread. None of the Astartes genetic implants increase the Astartes' creativity, problem solving ability, or anything that might represent an increase in intellectual capacity.
Apparently they do.
2013/06/03 07:46:28
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
You can't tell, of course, because none of them do. Making up fluff to suit your interpretation is fine, but that's no reason to be so hostile when someone disagrees.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/03 07:47:05
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/06/03 08:11:21
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Sorry, meant that it could be the implants or the indoctrination. Which one causes it is fairly irrelevant.
Oh, and I looked up Index Astartes too, for fun.
Actually, it is indeed the indoctrination that does it, page 9 of Index Astartes note that Marines have "extraordinary minds too", detailing some of the benefits of such (Photographic memory, enhanced mental processing, etc.), but does note what I've also said, that "individual minds may vary".
2013/06/03 08:18:42
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Not really. Every codex says that their army is better. Sisters of Battle has it that they are the "shining example of all that is good about humanity", which could easily mean that they're all geniuses and uber strong and oh so good and pure and everything wonderful and nice while also being utter badasses who don't afraid of anything. Does it mean that? Or is it just an example, much like the quote you provided, of codices trying to make the army it's about look cool?"
Which means, as I have been saying all along, nothing that's inherent to being a Space Marine makes them smart. That combined with the fact that Space Marines don't recruit off of intelligence, means that they aren't really smarter than the average human. Again, if we're going to start counting artificial upgrades that can be applied to anyone and aren't faction-specific, the human average will jump WAY up and they're arguably going to end up smarter than Space Marines due to the presence of the Mechanicum and its ubiquitous intelligence upgrades.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/06/03 08:33:09
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Melissia wrote: Not really. Every codex says that their army is better. Sisters of Battle has it that they are the "shining example of all that is good about humanity", which could easily mean that they're all geniuses and uber strong and oh so good and pure and everything wonderful and nice while also being utter badasses who don't afraid of anything. Does it mean that? Or is it just an example, much like the quote you provided, of codices trying to make the army it's about look cool?"
Interesting how easily you have overlooked the inherent difference between the two quotes.
The Space Marine quote is a direct comparison of intelligence. "Faculty of reason". It is specific.
The Sister of Battle quote? Vague.
It would be one thing if the Sisters of Battle have a quote that says they are more formidable physical specimens than the common rung of humanity or are smarter than the average bloke. But they don't.
Though to be honest, I wouldn't put it past even an unarmored Sister of Battle to be physically stronger, quicker, and sharper than most humans, due to their schooling and training.
(Hint: It's the latter in both cases.)Which means, as I have been saying all along, nothing that's inherent to being a Space Marine makes them smart. That combined with the fact that Space Marines don't recruit off of intelligence, means that they aren't really smarter than the average human. Again, if we're going to start counting artificial upgrades that can be applied to anyone and aren't faction-specific, the human average will jump WAY up and they're arguably going to end up smarter than Space Marines due to the presence of the Mechanicum and its ubiquitous intelligence upgrades.
Space Marines can't use Mechanicus intelligence upgrades why now? Yeah, think about it.
See, here is the thing: Those "upgrades" are only stated to be used on Marines, last I checked. And more than that, they apply to every Marine, enhancing their mind beyond what is normal for a human being. "Normal", as in, average.
You're trying to argue against Space Marines being statistically smarter by using outliers. I don't doubt that your average Inquisitor is at least on par with a Space Marine mentally (Probably above), and your average Tech Priest is certainly above them. But the average man, or guardsman? No, they are intellectually inferior.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/06/03 08:37:17
2013/06/03 08:33:48
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Void__Dragon wrote: Interesting how easily you have overlooked the inherent difference between the two quotes.
I didn't. It's not relevant, much like your entire argument, to the point I was making.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2013/06/03 15:04:59
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Anyway, no longer being led off-topic by particular individuals, the reason Space Marines don't necessarily look for intelligence within individuals is because the process of making a Space Marine will generally make them of above par intelligence.
0002/06/03 16:44:17
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
So to sum up, space marines don't really recruit for intelligence because it just isn't necessary. Their mental acuity will be heightened as a part of their development as marines.
2013/06/03 18:33:31
Subject: Space Marines that recruit for intelligence?
Void__Dragon wrote: So are you going to continue trolling without adding anything of substance, will you leave the thread, or will you concede?
Are you new here?
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
