What would be the mood of a Sister Hospitallier? i mean they can't be as angry and repressed as their fellow sisters as that would affect the survival-rate amongst the common men, but on the same them being all giddy wouldn't fit well with the Sister Hospitalliers.

Depends.

They're young Mother Theresa, all of them. Calm, collected, compassionate. Gentle nuns that take away your pain so you can once again serve the Emperor with honor - or at least be allowed to rest at His side if you don't make it.

Although I recall they can also serve as interrogators and torturers if the situation warrants it...

Mother Theresa scared even the Pope. She was fiery and faithful at times.

This: and if they don't have a vow of silence this too:

Um, OP seems to read as if this is meant to be a jokey thread but I'll be serious...I'll say the most likely answer is "extremely professional." I get the impression that no matter what their role is they are going to be 100% dedicated to the job.

Plus, I don't think their approach to medicine is going to be buckets of boiling pitch, etc. Judging from the BL stuff I've read recently (Eisenhorn and Ravenor being particular examples) the standard of medical care in the Imperium is pretty high on developed worlds and in the military and Adeptus-type organisations, so they're going to have access to plenty of supplies and modern equipment and be well trained.

This seems too broad of a question for a thread in itself don't you think? I mean it's one thing to ask what certain characters must think or feel about a certain situation (i.e. other Loyalist Primarchs viewpoint on the Council of Nikea's outcome) but this is about how someone feels....whenever.

For any general question such as this, like TheCustomLime said, it depends. No Sister Hospitallier is going to be exactly the same as the other as many would have various reasons to have ended up becoming one; whether it was their own idea of serving the Emperor even more or their own natural affinity towards it. People vary from person to person and emotions like everything else change depending on the context of the situation they are in.

It's like asking how a Guardsmen feels when he/she is going to war. It just leads to all sort of follow-up questions because it's too vague. What kind of guardsmen are you talking about? How old are they? Have they had any combat experience? Veteran or Conscript? Indoctrinated or not? Zealous or Pragmatic? Etc...etc...

 Fezman wrote:
Um, OP seems to read as if this is meant to be a jokey thread but I'll be serious...I'll say the most likely answer is "extremely professional." I get the impression that no matter what their role is they are going to be 100% dedicated to the job.

Very much so. Sisters are supremely dedicated to their work.

The Hospitalliers who arrive with Verity in Faith and Fire can be tough and intimidaing when they need to be. But yes, they're often not as angry or battle-hardened as their Militant comrades. Verity herself is a very good example of this. It's made clear that she's not used to combat like the Militants are. Though a Hospitallier who's been deployed to frontline combat might adopt the attitude of her Militant buddies.

So yeah, it'll vary.

As mentioned previously, "extremely professional". They're not candy-stripers, they're fully trained, competent doctors and surgeons.

Unless you reveal yourself to be a mutant, heretic or traitor... and then, well, that's when the buckets of boiling pitch come out. Death would be a merciful release.

Actually, they supposedly make bad torturers because they often kill the people they're torturing, according to some DH fluff.

True, then again, that's from the POV of the Inquisition, who are masters at the art, and keep people alive for, like, years. The Sisters may only manage days.

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, they supposedly make bad torturers because they often kill the people they're torturing, according to some DH fluff.

Odd. You'd think that their medical knowledge would make them good at knowing exactly how far to take it without killing somebody. Guess DH has them as fanatical as the Militants, then, if they're killing people they're meant to be torturing despite the aforementioned medical knowledge.

Dark Heresy's Sisters lore has a lot of flaws.

 Troike wrote:

Odd. You'd think that their medical knowledge would make them good at knowing exactly how far to take it without killing somebody. Guess DH has them as fanatical as the Militants, then, if they're killing people they're meant to be torturing despite the aforementioned medical knowledge.

It's not a matter of knowing how and where to cut but rather the simple notion that there is a heretic that isn't dead yet. The Hippocratic Oath only carries so far.

It's a mixed thing, on one hand it just further goes to show how complete they are in their convictions, on the other hand, Hospitallers can't be Pragmatic enough to realise the value of keeping them alive, at least for the time being?
This is especially odd when most the time Dark Heresy attempts to reinforce how competent the Adepta Sororitas truely are

Merely a matter of different interpretations/visions. Just like the various novels, these RPGs are written by a different studio and thus may at times propagate deviating ideas.

From the Codex fluff:
"Sisters Hospitaller are often called to serve the Inquisition in a number of capacities. To a Witch Hunter, a surgeon's ability to keep a subject alive despite the most grievous of injuries is most useful. In the persecution of heretics, even a Sister Hospitaller will put aside her compassion, so great is her chagrin should a man turn his back upon the Blessed God Emperor of Mankind."
- 3E C:WH p.11, Duties and Organisation of the Adepta Sororitas

Kettu wrote:This is especially odd when most the time Dark Heresy attempts to reinforce how competent the Adepta Sororitas truely are

... compared to hive gangers and IG conscripts, and armed with supernatural space magic rather than just an indomitable will.
To this day, I still prefer GW's original descriptions where they even get to purge entire Marine Chapters. The best that FFG credits them with is the ability to stand a chance against renegade Guardsmen and maybe even a bunch of Orks.
But of course that is only consistent, given that they have to work with "civilian" boltguns there... I kid you not, that's the actual wording in the books.

Anyways, the "mood" of the Sisters Hospitaller would be just as dependent on which source you are looking at, given that some novels seem to utilise a lighter, less hardcore interpretation of the Sisterhood.
If we were to go by Codex fluff, I would simply point out that they are all recruited from exactly the same inhumane Schola Progenium brainwashing program as the Battle Sisters, and as Melissia correctly recited are just as dedicated to their work (this bit is from the WD article that talked about the lifestyle in their convents, iirc).

Like any other character it all depends on how you write her. I like the idea of a scene with an injured Guardsman being wheeled in, a gorgeous SH is on hand, she evaluates him with a critical eye and instead of words of comfort she turns to the field medics who dragged him in "Damn it all trooper I'm a surgeon not a veterinarian."

Hahaha, surgeon, not a veterinarian, then he is a mutant pure and simple and she would then put him out of misery with her bolter. I mean you can have medics and doctors and you have religious fanatics with the skill-set of a doctor.

She was more going for "What's this pathetic excuse for a human being doing bleeding on my floor" then calling him a mutant.

Your interpretation is insane AKA47. And a true Sister Hospitallier wouldn't do that unless he gave her a very bad death-bed-confession like he secretly rapes puppies and such. That would cause her to strangle him on the spot and tell the commissar to never speak about the guy ever again.

Not really, the highly sarcastic and clinical medical professional isn't an uncommon trope in fiction of all kinds or reality.

Yeah especially about the Sister Hospitalliers, sorry your rebuttal is disregarded already. I rather have the Sister Hospitalliers to be like Angels of Mercy.

Generally speaking, they are considered to be the Angels of Mercy (or, if you prefer, the Sisters of Mercy... and I don't mean the Goth band)... you don't really find Sister House in the mentions of the Hospitallers.

....you're special aren't you? It's a fictional entity in a fictional universe of a couple hundred trillion human beings, with a couple hundred million if not more sisters among all orders. There's room for Sister Hospitaller Superior McCoy in all of that. Or House for that matter. Especially given their roles as combat medics, having known a fair number of trauma surgeons, battlefield medics, corpsmen, etc those guys and girls tend to be sarcastic donkey caves, angels of mercy and heroes? No doubt to it, I have friends who wouldn't be here today without their help, but caustic fethers? Also yes.

So here's the real question, why would you start a thread asking for the opinion of others if your mind is already made up on a fixed set of behavior for the group you're asking about?

While there is a couple hundred trillion human beings... there's only a few thousand Sisters Hospitaller. What little background fluff we're provided on them (the Sisters Militant get the most stories of the SOB) paints them as saintly and caring, as well as competent and professional to a degree not commonly seen, even amongst the Biologis.

While they might feel worn down by the horrors of war, sarcasm has absolutely no place in their faith, and to express their weariness would be to express a doubt in the God-Emperor, which they will not do where a patient might hear. They don't deal with a bureaucracy like House does. They don't deal with hospital politics, funding issues, inter-departmental romance drama, or anything of the sort.

One can absolutely be the consummate professional and still be a complete donkey cave, and still feel they are serving God Emperor and Unit well.

Possibly, but that doesn't fit with the information about them that GW has provided, is all I'm saying.

We've had a couple paragraphs, we've seen the span of human emotions and attitudes across all the Imperial forces we've spent any amount of significant time with including the SoB, it's odd to assume that the Hospitaller are any different then mere mortals any where else.

All Sisters are different from mere mortals. That is why they are the Adeptus Sororitas.

There is certainly some measure of differentiation between the individual Sisters - personally, all I would add to the discussion is that the range of possibilities there is much, much more narrow than within a normal human community. Much like with the Space Marines or the Commissars, this is what makes it so very difficult to portray one, be it for a story or for the purposes of roleplaying, and it takes a talented author to pull it off, hitting that small space between "bland clones of one another" and "too human". I always thought that James Swallow did nicely with the personalities of the various Sisters Militant - rash Miriya, by-the-book Imogen, pragmatic Galatea - that gave them all unique personalities, even allowing for some inter-faction conflict, without truly bending the shape established by GW. I'm just not sure whether I agree with his take on the Hospitallers, though, as Verity always felt a bit too ... squeamish?

Anyways, these girls have effectively been brainwashed; they grow up in an environment that teaches them a very rigid code of behaviour, and they are made to conform. Their lifestyle must seem utterly alien to the average Imperial citizen, as exemplified in a mini-story from the 3rd edition rulebook.

When comparing Schola Progenium education to real life, the best example that springs to my mind is the so-called Nationalpolitische Erziehungsanstalt (NaPolA) of the Third Reich, where young children were drilled into becoming the SS Elite of tomorrow. There's a rather interesting movie about that topic, in case anyone is interested, made under involvement of former students. Or perhaps think of those terrorist-funded Quran schools that turn kids into suicide bombers. That's the kind of mindset we're looking at here.

(as usual, operating solely from GW fluff here - I'm aware that some licensed products paint a less grimdark picture of the subject)

I'm going to have to go with KalashnikovMarine, as much as there is mass indoctrination and rigid standards set on people there is a variation of how well and literal these teachings set upon people depending on personality, personal will, as well as background alongside what type of people taught them these things. In a setting where there are millions of worlds with their own cultural viewpoint of the Emperor it would very easy to see their own streamlined version of the Imperial Creed (indeed it explicitly says that the Ecclesiarchy cares more that the Emperor is worshipped than the fiddly details of what he is seen as beyond as the absolute God of mankind). By extension this means there are countless variations in terms of how a Sister Hospitallier may view her patients and job depending on her own experience as just like in real life there may be a general mindset of a certain job but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule.

There's a reason why stereotypes aren't right most of the time and the ones that do fit them doesn't means their behaviour extends to rest of their group; otherwise the racists and sexists would be "right" about their ill-conceived notions of specific types of people. Sisters are people too and there is just the same amount of variation amongst their ranks as any other organization, even if it's less obvious than others.

Grimskul wrote:In a setting where there are millions of worlds with their own cultural viewpoint of the Emperor it would very easy to see their own streamlined version of the Imperial Creed (indeed it explicitly says that the Ecclesiarchy cares more that the Emperor is worshipped than the fiddly details of what he is seen as beyond as the absolute God of mankind). By extension this means there are countless variations in terms of how a Sister Hospitallier may view her patients and job depending on her own experience as just like in real life there may be a general mindset of a certain job but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule.

In GW fluff, the Sisterhood is one of the very, very few organisations in the Imperium that does not adhere to this rule of thumb. Every single Order, every single convent, can trace its roots back to a singular place of origin - the San Leor Temple - and they all adhere to one single book of rules. Differences in teachings from one Order to another are non-existent or minor, which is why it is easy for a Sister to transfer between convents without suffering a culture shock like it would happen between, say, different regiments of the Guard or different Space Marine Chapters. Indeed, if Sister Anastasia's story from the Inquisitor RPG is any indication, it is quite normal for a Sororitas to have served in at least two Orders - the Order Famulous training facility where she underwent her novitiate, and then the convent where she was actually posted upon graduating.

Grimskul wrote:Sisters are people too

So are the aforementioned suicide bombers and the shock infantry divisions of the Waffen SS.

Indoctrination and isolation can turn people into ruthless automatons.
There will always be some variance in personality, but I really would not say that the lifestyle in such organisations allows for "the same amount" as in other people. They're extremists, quite literally "single-minded".

 Lynata wrote:

Grimskul wrote:In a setting where there are millions of worlds with their own cultural viewpoint of the Emperor it would very easy to see their own streamlined version of the Imperial Creed (indeed it explicitly says that the Ecclesiarchy cares more that the Emperor is worshipped than the fiddly details of what he is seen as beyond as the absolute God of mankind). By extension this means there are countless variations in terms of how a Sister Hospitallier may view her patients and job depending on her own experience as just like in real life there may be a general mindset of a certain job but that doesn't mean there aren't exceptions to the rule.

In GW fluff, the Sisterhood is one of the very, very few organisations in the Imperium that does not adhere to this rule of thumb. Every single Order, every single convent, can trace its roots back to a singular place of origin - the San Leor Temple - and they all adhere to one single book of rules. Differences in teachings from one Order to another are non-existent or minor, which is why it is easy for a Sister to transfer between convents without suffering a culture shock like it would happen between, say, different regiments of the Guard or different Space Marine Chapters. Indeed, if Sister Anastasia's story from the Inquisitor RPG is any indication, it is quite normal for a Sororitas to have served in at least two Orders - the Order Famulous training facility where she underwent her novitiate, and then the convent where she was actually posted upon graduating.

Grimskul wrote:Sisters are people too

So are the aforementioned suicide bombers and the shock infantry divisions of the Waffen SS.

Indoctrination and isolation can turn people into ruthless automatons.
There will always be some variance in personality, but I really would not say that the lifestyle in such organisations allows for "the same amount" as in other people. They're extremists, quite literally "single-minded".

Fair enough with the first point in terms of cultural variances, I didn't realize the extent to which they were uniform in terms of teachings (though again I think there are at least some differences in terms of doctrine, even the Catholics had their own differences when it came to points of view, heck otherwise the Reformation wouldn't have happened). Also I don't that zealotry would mean all have the same mindset when it comes to dealing with patients, especially Sisters Hospitallier who's experience might have their zealotry express themselves in either a very morbid type of humour in terms of how all death is just another way to glorify the Emperor's will or possibly making them treat wounded victims with a sort of touching benevolence/compassion as healing them is a holy duty given them by the Emperor that allows them to carry out the Emperor's will across the stars. Again just because you're focus minded as gak doesn't mean it couldn't lead a bunch of different variations of general moods for Hospitalliers.

I'd suggest reading Black Edelweiss, the Waffen SS weren't all monominded Aryan murder machines either. Broad strokes like that just don't work in the real world.

Grimskul wrote:Fair enough with the first point in terms of cultural variances, I didn't realize the extent to which they were uniform in terms of teachings (though again I think there are at least some differences in terms of doctrine, even the Catholics had their own differences when it came to points of view, heck otherwise the Reformation wouldn't have happened).

Oh, the church certainly has differences in local interpretation - just the Adepta Sororitas not so much. If we were to look at real life comparisons, we should not look at Catholics but rather, say, two regionally distant commanderies of the Teutonic Order. Although that may be somewhat too limiting, as indeed the various convents do, to a degree, take after their Founding Saint. It could probably be likened to how a commander shapes and influences the environment of his/her base with various decisions and speeches, just that the Canonesses who are in command of a convent feel compelled to take inspiration from the various writings of their patron Saint, in turn passing this on to the Sisters under their care.

From the Liber Sororitas article that once was printed in White Dwarf:
"As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.
Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina."

Grimskul wrote:Also I don't that zealotry would mean all have the same mindset when it comes to dealing with patients, especially Sisters Hospitallier who's experience might have their zealotry express themselves in either a very morbid type of humour in terms of how all death is just another way to glorify the Emperor's will or possibly making them treat wounded victims with a sort of touching benevolence/compassion as healing them is a holy duty given them by the Emperor that allows them to carry out the Emperor's will across the stars. Again just because you're focus minded as gak doesn't mean it couldn't lead a bunch of different variations of general moods for Hospitalliers.

I'm certainly not saying that there would not be differences! See my previous posts - all I'm saying is that they would sport a much more narrow range than average humans. In essence, there is a general template which they all have to conform to, and within this templare there exists some small room for individual personalities to form.

Some more fluff from the Liber Sororitas:
"The Orders Hospitaller provide surgeons, physicians and nurses to all arms of the Imperial military (with the exception of the Adeptus Astartes), performing acts of great compassion in the execution of their duties. The soldiers under their care often regard them as saintly figures, and many have been canonised, often posthumously, following some act of great personal bravery in the face of the enemy. Members of the Orders Hospitaller can be found accompanying many branches of the Imperium's military, from Imperial Guard regiments to Rogue Traders' personal armies, and are renowned for their skills throughout the Imperium. They have also been known to work in conjunction with the Orders Famulous, where their skills complement those of a Sister Famulous in researching the details of blood-lines and genealogy."

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I'd suggest reading Black Edelweiss, the Waffen SS weren't all monominded Aryan murder machines either. Broad strokes like that just don't work in the real world.

Not the Waffen SS, but certain divisions of it. I'm aware that they also had stuff like anti-air units that were less fanatical.
Also, see my previous comment regarding the Napola - obviously, cadets hailing from there would be indoctrinated more thoroughly than someone they picked up randomly. Later in the war, recruitment requirements were dropped significantly, so much so that they even started to press non-Aryans and even non-Germans into this uniform.

I believe broad strokes do work. Not always, obviously, or even very often, but to say that it is never the case ... well, we'll just have to disagree on that.

[edit] To expand on that ... let's consider what actually makes people different. I would assume it is in part genetical/biological, but another large part is upbringing and experiences, and the latter two factors are dominated by Schola indoctrination. These girls are raised to be Sororitas from infancy - that's a lot of brainwashing!

Well it all depends on what you mean by the SS. The SS is the actual "Aryan Knights" with racial screening, it's also where the Toten Kopf division (the scum who handled the camps) were along with the real life counter parts to Hans Landa "The Jew Hunter" in Inglorious Bastards were. The Waffen SS was just an elite body of rigorously trained combat troops. They were too busy either killing or being killed by Russians to be robots about anything. In fact that same accusation of being a mindless killing machine is leveled at myself and my fellow Marines TODAY. It's no more true then it was for any one else. It's hard to make individuals pure evil across the board, no matter how long you have to indoctrinate them.

The fluff on the Schola Progenium is extremely varied though, ranging from "from birth" to "school age" to "after your parents die gloriously for the Imperium/you get picked up as a potential recruit on one test or another" you still get characters like Edmund Blacka... err Ciaphas Cain popping out of there, and if he's an extreme example as one outlier, and a SoB or Inquisitorial Stormtrooper with the personality of an extremely violent radish there's still quite the spectrum in between those two goal posts.

I wouldn't compare the SOB to the SS. First and foremost the SOB ain't that evil, secondly you basically presented a view were a Sister Hospitallier was ludicrous in her treatment of a soldier for no good reason, no person with medical knowhow would do that, and you rejected the only way that would make sense, the guy being a mutant.

And even Ciaphas Cain is a religious fanatic, he is a pragmatic individual, maybe smarking a bit much over losses at scrumball, such losses really affect the pride of a guy, and I remember when I played football, I frequently accused the opposing teams of basically flaying cats alive in their lockerroms, so a smarking male ain't to be trusted.

I wouldn't call Ciaphas Cain a religious fanatic, believer? yes, but Cain has more then once made critical comments on those he has deemed "Emperor Botherers" and has almost been executed for heresy/not believing in the Emperor enough at last once.

Also if you think medical professionals can't be crass, sarcastic and otherwise brutal in their behavior to coworkers, patients and literally any one else then I congratulate you on your good health, you haven't been inside of many hospitals. Nurses, especially trauma nurses are some of the most jaded, bitter individuals on earth and are absolutely hilarious if you enjoy black/gallows humor.

I have been in contact with nurses and doctors through two grandmas who are ailing. One is now expired and I expect the second to go any moment, must God bless them both. But yeah I haven't seen anything which would make me call my uncle or cousin lawyer and such. And people in general are polite to strangers, at least I am. And sure they can be crass, but I'm not looking for a Hospitallier House or something like that. Then I rather take Mother Theresa and sic her into space. And it's in established canon that the Sisters Hospitalliers poffer the finest medical aid a normal human can hope to get.

The man that thought Cain doiesn't believe enough in Empy was an idiot and was later discharged from the commissariat for his incompetence.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:The SS is the actual "Aryan Knights" with racial screening, it's also where the Toten Kopf division (the scum who handled the camps) were along with the real life counter parts to Hans Landa "The Jew Hunter" in Inglorious Bastards were. The Waffen SS was just an elite body of rigorously trained combat troops.

That's true for the later stages for the war, but not at its inception - at least from the books that I have read. And it makes more sense to me that way, too, given that the Waffen SS was an official sub-department of the SS (and a recipient of the aforementioned Napola cadets, too).

KalashnikovMarine wrote:The fluff on the Schola Progenium is extremely varied though, ranging from "from birth" to "school age" to "after your parents die gloriously for the Imperium/you get picked up as a potential recruit on one test or another" you still get characters like Edmund Blacka... err Ciaphas Cain popping out of there, and if he's an extreme example as one outlier, and a SoB or Inquisitorial Stormtrooper with the personality of an extremely violent radish there's still quite the spectrum in between those two goal posts.

It's varied because this is 40k, where there is no absolute truth and the various sources may conflict wildly with one another. This is especially true with the Cain novels. This character, and thus indeed the entire novel series, just does not work if you go by GW fluff. Hence, this would be a case of incompatible interpretations.

Beaviz81 wrote:I wouldn't compare the SOB to the SS. First and foremost the SOB ain't that evil, secondly you basically presented a view were a Sister Hospitallier was ludicrous in her treatment of a soldier for no good reason, no person with medical knowhow would do that, and you rejected the only way that would make sense, the guy being a mutant.

Hmmh, I'm not sure if the SoB could not be called "evil" by a contemporary definition. If you don't happen to fit into their narrow definition of "Good Imperial Subject", you're bound to have a crappy day when encountering them. If you're lucky, you'll just get a bolt between the eyes. More likely you'll end up on the business end of a promethium-fueled flamethrower, or disappear into the bowels of Ophelia VII's vast dungeons to "repent for your sins" before being allowed to die with a cleansed soul.

"With a single word, a bombastic Confessor can preach the doom of an excommunicated world, and when such an undertaking is called for, it is the fanatically loyal Sisters of Battle who lead the way, slaying the Emperor's enemies with no compassion, heedless of the blasphemous protestations of innocence that assail their ears."

And let's not forget the purity control tests where, with the help of the Adeptus Arbites, they round up citizens and labourers for genetic screening, sorting out those who are deemed defective. "Mutant pogroms" is a thing in the Imperium, and yes, that's the term they actually used in the Codex.
Of course we tend to not perceive this to be much of an issue since 40k is "just a wargame", and the IoM is presented as the protagonist. Yet when we analyse this behaviour deeper, how is this different from the SS hunting down jews, or the medieval crusaders butchering entire villages of "heathens"? I'm not advocating shunning the Imperium because of its fascist and inhuman behaviour or the many atrocities committed in its name, mind you, as this is just a game and the grimdark dystopia is what keeps many of us interested. I'm just pointing out that it's not exactly a nice place to live in by modern standards, and how I feel such lifestyles would affect the mood of the people. It irritates me to no end that the Cain novels are so popular because, in the words of their own fans, "they're funny and not so bleak". I'm tempted to ask how those people ended up with 40k in the first place, but as I've come to understand, this franchise is supposed to have space for any interpretation of the setting.

Andy Hoare once said this in the designer's notes for the WH Codex:
"By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they're paragons of virtue whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind."

It is all a matter of perspective, and the victor writes the history.


As for the real life experiences with nurses and doctors, I assume this depends mostly upon where exactly you're looking... Healthcare has become a profit institution with budget cuts and double shifts ruining the staff's temper, yet there are still hospitals where the climate may be different. The environment and how the staff is treated by their employer surely reflects strongly upon individual behaviour, same as with what kind of nurse or doctor is allowed to work there in the first place and how the hospital deals with complaints etc.

Considering what the enemies are, pogroms are a necessity nothing else, lest the world would be onverrun by mutants, Genestealers and their ilk, the only answer is violence.

And Cain ain't opposed to violence, he just hates taking risks as he is shown to be happy organizing firing squads and shooting at unharmed rioters. He is not a nice person because even him is a religious fanatic, which is the only way to survive in the bleak galaxy.

Beaviz81 wrote:Considering what the enemies are, pogroms are a necessity nothing else, lest the world would be onverrun by mutants, Genestealers and their ilk, the only answer is violence.

I think similar languages have been used in the past to justify violence against minorities.

In the Imperium, having an extra ear marks you as an outcast - slave labour that may be slain by "pureblooded" Imperials any day - it just takes a zealous Preacher to whip your neighbours into a frenzy, then you end up beaten to death. And your young children as well. Whilst the authorities stand on the roadside to wait until your house is burned down.

In the Imperium, Reichskristallnacht is just another tuesday.

Problem is that unlike IRL Lynata that's actually needed, not just merely an excuse like in IRL. That makes it hard to draw the parallels because the war-crimes are something you must do to survive or your whole race would be mutated or genestealed away, which you can't claim jews or any other religions would do.

Pogrom is officially the word of the day.

Beaviz81 wrote:Problem is that unlike IRL Lynata that's actually needed, not just merely an excuse like in IRL. That makes it hard to draw the parallels because the war-crimes are something you must do to survive or your whole race would be mutated or genestealed away, which you can't claim jews or any other religions would do.

Oh - I get that, but that doesn't make it any nicer for us and the cozy ideals we have been allowed to develop thanks to our modern lifestyle. In an ideal world, the Imperium would have the scientific knowledge to research cures or protection, implement environmental laws to prevent industry waste and radiation from polluting habitats, and perhaps "just" sterilize affected populations instead of burning everyone on stakes.

But 40k isn't an ideal world, that's why (I think) we like it. As I said, I just think it takes a special kind of person (by modern standards) to pull the trigger on unarmed civilians, not to mention the torture that's almost kind of a national pastime in the IoM.

And @ KM

Wasn't there an SoB that led a pogrom? Pretty sure I read that somewhere in their lore.

They lead them all the time, the aforementioned "purity tests" and the many Wars of Faith the Sisters lead the way in, just to name two examples. Though the latter tend to be lead by Sisters Militant, rather than Hospitaller.

 Troike wrote:
Wasn't there an SoB that led a pogrom? Pretty sure I read that somewhere in their lore.

Is there a Sister of Battle that hasn't led a pogrom? I'm fairly sure that's all they actually do in the fluff.


As far as the Sisters Hospitaller, I like to believe it's like the Sisters of Castle Anthrax. Eight score of blondes and brunettes all between the ages of16 and 19-and-a-half cut off in a convent, with a steady schedule of bathing, dressing, undressing and knitting exciting underwear.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Troike wrote:
Wasn't there an SoB that led a pogrom? Pretty sure I read that somewhere in their lore.

Is there a Sister of Battle that hasn't led a pogrom? I'm fairly sure that's all they actually do in the fluff.


As far as the Sisters Hospitaller, I like to believe it's like the Sisters of Castle Anthrax. Eight score of blondes and brunettes all between the ages of16 and 19-and-a-half cut off in a convent, with a steady schedule of bathing, dressing, undressing and knitting exciting underwear.

I was thinking of a specific account I read. One got famous doing one.

Must've been one hell of a pogrom if all the Sisters are doing them.

Vet, there is so much wrong with that.

 Psienesis wrote:
They lead them all the time, the aforementioned "purity tests" and the many Wars of Faith the Sisters lead the way in, just to name two examples. Though the latter tend to be lead by Sisters Militant, rather than Hospitaller.

Yes, usually it's the Sisters militant. But all Sisters went through the same Schola Progenium training and raising, and all of them are fanatically devoted to the cause.

Ah, this is the one I thinking of.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chrisima#.UbIjL5z4RvA

 Melissia wrote:
Vet, there is so much wrong with that.

Somebody missed the reference.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
As far as the Sisters Hospitaller, I like to believe it's like the Sisters of Castle Anthrax. Eight score of blondes and brunettes all between the ages of16 and 19-and-a-half cut off in a convent, with a steady schedule of bathing, dressing, undressing and knitting exciting underwear.

lol'd

Exalted.

I find it funny that people are comparing the Waffen-SS to the Sisters of Battle. They are very different.

The Waffen-SS was a politicized military organization with fancy camouflage uniforms. Some people think of the W-SS as Germany's elite but this was only true in the case of some divisions (Such as 1st SS). Most W-SS divisions were at least on par with their heer counterparts. They were also equipped somewhat less well than the regular army. Furthermore, they -weren't- racially pure. Not by a long shot. The W-SS had a bunch of foreign volunteers and in fact several divisions were completely comprised of them. The only divisions that were really "Aryan" were those formed in the early years of the war and the Hitler Youth division (12th SS).

The Sisters of Battle on the other hand are made up of the best of the best, subjected to rigorous training and, most importantly, are a religious organization. They are far better equipped than their regular army equivalents. The are the best a normal human being can aspire to. The only real similarities between the two organizations is that they carry out atrocities but W-SS divisions weren't specifically trained to carry out such actions. I guess you could compare 12th SS (The Hitler Youth division) to the Sisters of Battle and they do share some similarities (Stubborn, loyal, fights hard and took a beating once coming into enemy contact) but not the organization as a whole.

As for the docs I'd imagine they would be as dour and uncompromising as any other sister. I don't see why they wouldn't be given that the same organization trains them. Maybe because some people want a "Hello Nurse" in the GrimDark future?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
As for the docs I'd imagine they would be as dour and uncompromising as any other sister

Not necessarily. Sister Verity in the James Swallow books isn't really like this.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Vet, there is so much wrong with that.

Somebody missed the reference.

At least you're not referencing Camelot, but that song was at least amusing to listen to, unlike the Castle Anthrax scene

Anyway, I'm fairly certain that "the average Sororitas" is not unnecessarily stern towards those who show the proper level of piety.

 Troike wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
As for the docs I'd imagine they would be as dour and uncompromising as any other sister

Not necessarily. Sister Verity in the James Swallow books isn't really like this.

Of course, but that's the exception rather than the rule. I'm sure there are Sisters of Battle that are general amiable towards loyal servants of the Emperor somewhere.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
As for the docs I'd imagine they would be as dour and uncompromising as any other sister

Not necessarily. Sister Verity in the James Swallow books isn't really like this.

Of course, but that's the exception rather than the rule. I'm sure there are Sisters of Battle that are general amiable towards loyal servants of the Emperor somewhere.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that she wasn't an exception. They do have a reputation for torture, after all.

And in regards to your post about Battle Sisters, Argent Shroud might somewhat fit what you said.

http://imageshack.us/a/img443/3324/ordersmilitant.jpg

If they're not busy purging suspected heretics, that is.

Troike wrote:Not necessarily. Sister Verity in the James Swallow books isn't really like this.

Of course it's hard to say how well this author's interpretation of the Hospitaller synchs with GW's original material. The analysis of whether two sources fit to each other is something that each of us must make for themselves - as well as deciding which one to prefer, if they do conflict.

The degree of variance between the various products is what makes such discussions so difficult. We've all read different stuff and allowed our perceptions to be shaped by it.

TheCustomLime wrote:The Waffen-SS was a politicized military organization with fancy camouflage uniforms. Some people think of the W-SS as Germany's elite but this was only true in the case of some divisions (Such as 1st SS). Most W-SS divisions were at least on par with their heer counterparts. They were also equipped somewhat less well than the regular army. Furthermore, they -weren't- racially pure. Not by a long shot. The W-SS had a bunch of foreign volunteers and in fact several divisions were completely comprised of them. The only divisions that were really "Aryan" were those formed in the early years of the war and the Hitler Youth division (12th SS).

And as mentioned in an earlier post I was talking specifically about those racially pure and indoctrinated divisions.
Their equipment does not matter much when we're just discussing behaviour.

Although I suppose it was still a bad comparison, as I imagine these Waffen-SS troops to be less disciplined than the Sororitas, their fanatism largely limited to believing in their cause and racial superiority, as well as their rigid code of loyalty. The Sisters' list of "virtues" seems to be longer still and even more limiting, ranging from the isolation and self-inflicted suffering to fasting and continuous praying.

TheCustomLime wrote:As for the docs I'd imagine they would be as dour and uncompromising as any other sister. I don't see why they wouldn't be given that the same organization trains them. Maybe because some people want a "Hello Nurse" in the GrimDark future?

Well, if the popularity of the Cain novels is any indication...

 Lynata wrote:

Troike wrote:Not necessarily. Sister Verity in the James Swallow books isn't really like this.

Of course it's hard to say how well this author's interpretation of the Hospitaller synchs with GW's original material. The analysis of whether two sources fit to each other is something that each of us must make for themselves - as well as deciding which one to prefer, if they do conflict.

The degree of variance between the various products is what makes such discussions so difficult. We've all read different stuff and allowed our perceptions to be shaped by it.

She syncs allright, I'd say. Keep in mind, she's an exception even within the books. The Hospitalliers she arrives with in the first book act all intimidating towards the pilot, and generally come across as no-nonsense sorts.

They are human. Imagine the range in personalities we have then apply it to them.
Some are probably total dicks, others are probably really nice.

They are humans raised in a specific environment, indoctrinated into a specific cult of belief, trained to perform a specific set of skills in fairly specific environments, and not permitted to partake of most of the things that a regular human has available.

... and they enjoy this.

Don't think the "regular human" bit works with regards to Sisters.

Consider that these are women who begin their training to become Sisters at a very young age, and, as these are Hospitallers, are entering what we would consider Med School at, what, 14? 16? They never work in a civilian hospital. They never have to deal with the sense of hopelessness that a civilian doctor in an underfunded public clinic might. They are indoctrinated to believe that the God-Emperor has a plan for everything, and those who suffer are brought closer unto Him through their suffering.

They still have regular human traits.
Even commissars have varying personalities.

 purplefood wrote:
They still have regular human traits

To an extent. But they would still feel alien to us.

 Melissia wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
They still have regular human traits

To an extent. But they would still feel alien to us.

An excellent point to jump off with. To the outside, they must feel very stern and by the book. That's their outside demeanor. My medic shows total professionalism and military bearing to anybody outside of the unit. In the unit? Behind closed doors? Total joker. He'd still be cracking jokes while packing you with gauze. That's the thing about a lot of GW fluff, it's broad stroke stuff that describes legions in one sentence. The BL and outer sourced stuff gets into the weeds for each and every person of a given unit. It's like that universally. Commissars, guardsmen, and even space marines are given personalities when you see them as people. Sisters are no different. Personality shows through when given the chance and the security of a member's unit. The point of all of this?

Each sister is capable of having their own emotions and feelings. There are some things that are universal. A belief in the Emperor and their mission for example.

 Troike wrote:
The Hospitalliers who arrive with Verity in Faith and Fire can be tough and intimidaing when they need to be. But yes, they're often not as angry or battle-hardened as their Militant comrades. Verity herself is a very good example of this. It's made clear that she's not used to combat like the Militants are. Though a Hospitallier who's been deployed to frontline combat might adopt the attitude of her Militant buddies.

So yeah, it'll vary.

Beat me to it. Verity is awesome

Humblesteve wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
They still have regular human traits

To an extent. But they would still feel alien to us.

An excellent point to jump off with. To the outside, they must feel very stern and by the book. That's their outside demeanor. My medic shows total professionalism and military bearing to anybody outside of the unit. In the unit? Behind closed doors? Total joker. He'd still be cracking jokes while packing you with gauze. That's the thing about a lot of GW fluff, it's broad stroke stuff that describes legions in one sentence. The BL and outer sourced stuff gets into the weeds for each and every person of a given unit. It's like that universally. Commissars, guardsmen, and even space marines are given personalities when you see them as people. Sisters are no different. Personality shows through when given the chance and the security of a member's unit. The point of all of this?

Each sister is capable of having their own emotions and feelings. There are some things that are universal. A belief in the Emperor and their mission for example.

Yep. And the bitter, sarcastic, Dr. House-isms from the show are, as one might put it, unprofessional. These are women who are here to serve the God-Emperor, and stand as representatives of His Mercy. Being a sarcastic jerk to their patients does not serve this goal.

All about how you interpret "mercy" mano especially if they're from one of the sects that interpret suffering as a blessing. Try it this way for example.

"Bedside manner? Succor is for cowards and heretics, if you show yourself to be either in my presence Guardsman I promise your end shall be immediate, you have sacrificed much..." The Sororitas gives the legless man a brief once over like a butcher sizing up a Grox. "...and I have been informed that you shall be decorated, promoted and fit with new legs courtesy of the Adeptus Mechanicus... should you survive. I shall say it once again, prove yourself a coward and I shall ensure you are remembered as the hero you were before being dragged into my operating theater. If the God Emperor wills it, and your courage continues to hold, you shall walk from this place acknowledged as that same hero." Well trimmed nails dance over a selection of surgical equipment, neatly laid out by one of the surgical orderlies that are waiting outside for the Sister Superior to signal for their return, an experienced trauma team, they know better then to interrupt the Sister Superior's "pep talks", but a flash of a laser scalpel is all the signal needed for the team to rush the room. As the brutal work of preserving life begins the Sister Superior allows herself a contented smile as she begins her work, the soul has been cared for, now to see to the body. "All in a day's work."

Humblesteve wrote:

Melissia wrote:To an extent. But they would still feel alien to us.

An excellent point to jump off with. To the outside, they must feel very stern and by the book. That's their outside demeanor. My medic shows total professionalism and military bearing to anybody outside of the unit. In the unit? Behind closed doors? Total joker. He'd still be cracking jokes while packing you with gauze.

I believe (assume) Melissia was referring to "us" as "the reader", not as in "someone not within their Order".

I don't know why, but it seems as if a lot of people just assume all humans have to be the same in the range of the emotions and behaviour patterns they permit themselves. I wonder, do people think the same about the Japanese samurai ideal of earlier time periods? Or Al-Qaida suicide bombers? Or, to bring up an example of the 40k franchise, the Black Templars?
With the Adepta Sororitas, we're talking religious fanatics, and I don't see why a person should act against the beliefs that have been drilled into their heads - especially when, as per Codex fluff, such behaviour is subject to extreme punishment.
To me, the application of contemporary western culture that is being taken for granted here, where everyone is free to act as they want, just seems too contradictory to the core aspects of how the Sisterhood has always been described in studio material.

"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deviation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement."

You don't get to be this organisation if your people start cracking jokes as soon as you close the doors.

But of course GW's own fluff on them is anything but binding. Anyone who wishes to do so is free to imagine them in a less restrictive manner, and even a number of licensed products make use of this opportunity. I just don't quite see why this is being done. If you want normal people, you already have those in the Imperial Guard.

 Lynata wrote:
But of course GW's own fluff on them is anything but binding. Anyone who wishes to do so is free to imagine them in a less restrictive manner, and even a number of licensed products make use of this opportunity. I just don't quite see why this is being done. If you want normal people, you already have those in the Imperial Guard.

But conversely, you don't want to go too far in the other direction and make them all identical zealots.

I remember somebody praised James Swallow because he avoided making them into "PRAY KILL BURN automatons" and gave them some variety, and i think that's a valid point to make. It's okay to give them a little depth and variance, IMO. But yes, duty and faith should very much always be at the top of their agendas, because that's who they are as an organisation.

Troike wrote:But conversely, you don't want to go too far in the other direction and make them all identical zealots.

Absolutely! Which is why I think it's so difficult to make "convincing" Sororitas, Space Marines, or Commissars, both in novels as well as RPGs. I think I've mentioned this before, but it takes quite a bit of consideration to hit that sweet spot between "too human/normal" and "too much of a clone". The many self-imposed and/or enforced limitations make for less room for a personality to "manoeuver" within, so a writer/player needs to look for more subtle differences or risk breaking the mold. And whilst I'm not sure I agree with Sister Verity coming off as that dovish, I think Swallow did an excellent job with the Battle Sisters. You can appear to be "PRAY KILL BURN" and still have more depth when looked at more closely - the little conflict between Miriya and Imogen in Hammer & Anvil springs to mind, which I thought was a nice touch and a good example on how to "individualise" brainwashed people without invalidating their indoctrination. Same for the talks between Miriya and Canoness Galatea in Faith & Fire. It's just that the differences between them are not so glaringly obvious as it is with "normal people", and more focused on minor differences in prioritisation or how they react to non-standard situations.

And in this sense, I'd even assume that some Sisters may have a bit of humour, but it wouldn't be foolishly joking around and telling funny stories, but a much more nuanced form employing clever remarks. I always remember the Prioress from Daemonifuge as an example, when she decides to rig Ephrael's trial in her favour.

Canoness Ramientez: "She's got no chance against the Inquisitor at close quarters ..."
Prioress: "Unless fate decides to even the odds."
*looks for servitor remote*
Prioress: "You believe in fate, don't you?"
Canoness: *smirk*

 Lynata wrote:
And in this sense, I'd even assume that some Sisters may have a bit of humour, but it wouldn't be foolishly joking around and telling funny stories, but a much more nuanced form employing clever remarks.

Faith and Fire actually has one cracking a witty remark in the middle of difficult firefight. One of Miriya's squadmates quips "If only I had a storm bolter!" which I thought was a very nice touch.

 Lynata wrote:
I always remember the Prioress from Daemonifuge as an example, when she decides to rig Ephrael's trial in her favour.

Canoness Ramientez: "She's got no chance against the Inquisitor at close quarters ..."
Prioress: "Unless fate decides to even the odds."
*looks for servitor remote*
Prioress: "You believe in fate, don't you?"
Canoness: *smirk*

Arrgh. Really want to buy this off BL now! Were I not off to buy some gak for my minis this week and were I not so stingy, I'd probably get it. I'll have to start setting money aside for it.

I honestly don't think you can compare Samurai of any era to the limited range of human emotion that people in this thread seem to be confining Sisters of Battle too, the Samurai were dedicated and trained from birth in the arts of war, and more importantly to the Samurai, trained to die well, and at a moment's notice. So while the Samurai of the same age have a connected, unifying experience and culture, one man to another, (or woman to another in the case of female Japanese warriors) were just as human as any one else, with the same ranges of personality as any one else, but with the cultural difference separating them from the teeming masses. I find books of the times, in particular The Hagakure, the collected thoughts of Samurai Yamamoto Tsunetomo provide some excellent anecdotes.

Drawing from my own personal experience, I've faced similar criticism in my own time as an American Marine, it's extremely easy to try to paint an organization or historical group with broad brush strokes but it's about as accurate as putting paint on a canvas with a house brush sounds.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I honestly don't think you can compare Samurai of any era to the limited range of human emotion that people in this thread seem to be confining Sisters of Battle to

I think it's less about a potential lack or inability to experience specific emotions (that would be more of a biological thing I guess), but training and culture resulting in their suppression or outright falsification. The human mind is malleable - else there wouldn't be so much effort spent on propaganda and brainwashing.

Something on the subject:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/north-korea-death-camp-survivor-1814554

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Drawing from my own personal experience, I've faced similar criticism in my own time as an American Marine, it's extremely easy to try to paint an organization or historical group with broad brush strokes but it's about as accurate as putting paint on a canvas with a house brush sounds.

Ah, but by the same token it seems extremely easy to paint an entire species with broad brush strokes regardless of extreme cultural differences.

Now, I've not lived in a medieval nun convent or trained in an Al-Qaida camp myself, but when humans are shaped by their upbringing and environment (which I believe is accepted socio-scientific knowledge by now), then there will be differences defined by those factors. It's just hard to imagine it, I think, because as Melissia said the sheer concept seems alien to us. Check the stories of various real life cult escapees who escaped some nefarious religious group that heaped abuse upon them and existed for decades because of that human drive of unity, then multiply this by ten and imagine all of this takes place in a place that, unlike ours, does not actually believe any of this is wrong, and hence supports not the escapees but their captors. And unlike those cults, where the escapees are usually forced into the movement (either due to their family joining, or because they were born into it), the Sororitas accept only those progena who have already proven to possess a "suitable" mindset during their Schola years.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
All about how you interpret "mercy" mano especially if they're from one of the sects that interpret suffering as a blessing. Try it this way for example.

"Bedside manner? Succor is for cowards and heretics, if you show yourself to be either in my presence Guardsman I promise your end shall be immediate, you have sacrificed much..." The Sororitas gives the legless man a brief once over like a butcher sizing up a Grox. "...and I have been informed that you shall be decorated, promoted and fit with new legs courtesy of the Adeptus Mechanicus... should you survive. I shall say it once again, prove yourself a coward and I shall ensure you are remembered as the hero you were before being dragged into my operating theater. If the God Emperor wills it, and your courage continues to hold, you shall walk from this place acknowledged as that same hero." Well trimmed nails dance over a selection of surgical equipment, neatly laid out by one of the surgical orderlies that are waiting outside for the Sister Superior to signal for their return, an experienced trauma team, they know better then to interrupt the Sister Superior's "pep talks", but a flash of a laser scalpel is all the signal needed for the team to rush the room. As the brutal work of preserving life begins the Sister Superior allows herself a contented smile as she begins her work, the soul has been cared for, now to see to the body. "All in a day's work."

From the fluff we are provided on the Hospitaller, their patients view them as "saintly" and akin to "angels sent by the God-Emperor". Everything regarding the average Joe's experience with the Sisters Hospitaller paints them as beautiful, caring, merciful women who excel at treatment of the sick and injured... unless Average Joe also happens to be a heretic or a cultist. Nowhere are we given a Sister House within the Ordo Hospitaller. Coloring the studio background of the Sisters Hospitaller are the by-now stereotypical attitudes towards the female nurses of WW1/WW2 and, in later conflicts, the "candystriper" volunteers.

Why would they be beautiful?

Saintly doesn't equate to beauty, lol. Caring and merciful, perhaps. But plenty of nurses across time have been referred to as as akin to angels, and saintly. It has nothing to do with their looks. The Sisters aren't going to have time to screen recruits by their looks. And even if they did, they'd probably be much better off funneling the hotties into the Famulous anyway.

I think the "beautiful" part is your imagination getting the better of you. It's not your fault though. Most of the pictures of Sisters of Battle portray them as impossibly skinny Victoria's Secret models in power armor. Well, except for maybe Sister Velma Dinkley of the Orders Dialogus.

But hey, any good wartime propaganda would. Gotta keep the boys on the front line inspired. Nobody wants to save (or be saved by) a short, dumpy, ugly chick, right?

Because Saints are human ideals. They are, in a sense, humanity perfected. Given the situations the injured civilians and soldiers find themselves in, I would not be surprised to find that they have rather hyped-up opinions of the beauty of the Sisters.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:


I think the "beautiful" part is your imagination getting the better of you. It's not your fault though. Most of the pictures of Sisters of Battle portray them as impossibly skinny Victoria's Secret models in power armor. Well, except for maybe Sister Velma Dinkley of the Orders Dialogus.

"Jinkeys! If what I'm reading is right there's a demon confined somewhere on this shrine world and it the seals containing it might be weakening! We have to tell the Canoness right away!"

Sororitas would not necessarily be attractive. They would however be physically fit, in a similar manner to a professional martial artist in modern Earth (except more so).

Yeah, I'm not trying to suggest that all SOB are fashion models. Just pointing out that, the fluff we get about them, told from the POV of the Guardsmen they save, the injured they heal, the sick they cure, etc etc etc, paints them as "angelic". This is, of course, from a very biased perspective (intentionally so) in-universe, so it doesn't surprise me that a Guardsman who would have otherwise died, but was saved by Sister Plain Jane's medical expertise, finds her to be the most beautiful woman he's ever laid eyes on.

Of course, he's probably not going to say that to her face, but when he gets back to his Regiment... well... he's got a tale to tell in the barracks!

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
All about how you interpret "mercy" mano especially if they're from one of the sects that interpret suffering as a blessing. Try it this way for example.

"Bedside manner? Succor is for cowards and heretics, if you show yourself to be either in my presence Guardsman I promise your end shall be immediate, you have sacrificed much..." The Sororitas gives the legless man a brief once over like a butcher sizing up a Grox. "...and I have been informed that you shall be decorated, promoted and fit with new legs courtesy of the Adeptus Mechanicus... should you survive. I shall say it once again, prove yourself a coward and I shall ensure you are remembered as the hero you were before being dragged into my operating theater. If the God Emperor wills it, and your courage continues to hold, you shall walk from this place acknowledged as that same hero." Well trimmed nails dance over a selection of surgical equipment, neatly laid out by one of the surgical orderlies that are waiting outside for the Sister Superior to signal for their return, an experienced trauma team, they know better then to interrupt the Sister Superior's "pep talks", but a flash of a laser scalpel is all the signal needed for the team to rush the room. As the brutal work of preserving life begins the Sister Superior allows herself a contented smile as she begins her work, the soul has been cared for, now to see to the body. "All in a day's work."

Bedside manners would be very critical. Though the Matron apron-approach is something I would believe in, but they would also serve as vessels of faith hearing the last wishes from dying men. Though that is a secondary function as they first and foremost are very skilled medical personnel. Maybe even the best at the IOM. And that's telling a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Sororitas would not necessarily be attractive. They would however be physically fit, in a similar manner to a professional martial artist in modern Earth (except more so).

Yeah and they would basically eat like race-horses I mean they would likely be called gluttons by our standards for what they eat, but they would likely all be 100 kilos of muscle at least. I mean a Sororita in the flesh would likely not be an attractive female per say.

I dunno why you people are talking about combat capable/effective (and there is a difference) females like that's not insanely awesome AND hot.

I have never done that confusion in my own fluff. The SOB basically are an Amazon Brigade even better trained and such than any man like Saxa in Spartaus, but also without her promiscuity at the end. She and Nieva is incredibly good examples of how SOB should act in battle. And yeah they are lightly armoured but ripped with muscle.

Beaviz81 wrote:Bedside manners would be very critical. Though the Matron apron-approach is something I would believe in, but they would also serve as vessels of faith hearing the last wishes from dying men. Though that is a secondary function as they first and foremost are very skilled medical personnel. Maybe even the best at the IOM. And that's telling a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Sororitas would not necessarily be attractive. They would however be physically fit, in a similar manner to a professional martial artist in modern Earth (except more so).

Yeah and they would basically eat like race-horses I mean they would likely be called gluttons by our standards for what they eat, but they would likely all be 100 kilos of muscle at least. I mean a Sororita in the flesh would likely not be an attractive female per say.

That's a matter of personal opinion.

Even standards of gluttony differ hugely within cultures between athletes, labourers, and sufficiently-well-off pansies like us (yes, especially you, Captain Beaker :p), let alone between different cultures! If I ate a soldier's normal daily food intake, I'd be a glutton the size of a house. Does that make the soldier a glutton? Only to his mates who eat 5000kC a day instead of 5005kC.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I dunno why you people are talking about combat capable/effective (and there is a difference) females like that's not insanely awesome AND hot.

This comment is utterly misogynistic and sexist. As a feminist, I am disgusted with you.

As a lesbian, I kinda agree though.

There is nothing misogynistic about being attracted to a physically capable, strong woman. If anything, it shows one is comfortable enough in one's own masculinity to not be threatened by a "tough girl" and also being able to ignore female stereotypes to find something pretty cool.

Also, I doubt most Sisters are 100 kilos in muscle. Most male infantrymen don't weigh that much, feth that weighs almost as much as me, and I've got a layer of fat above the muscle, lol.

To put that in perspective, that is just under how much Arnold Schwarzeneggar (sp?) weighed in his prime.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Also, I doubt most Sisters are 100 kilos in muscle. Most male infantrymen don't weigh that much

Nor do most athletes either...

Actually most people who have 100 kilos of muscle would probably make poor soldiers.

Indeed.

Among athletes, those that weigh that much also tend to be pretty tall, and in professions that require perhaps a bit more bulk than others, such as wrestling (Both collegiate, and the technically non-sport but still physically demanding professional wrestling, among the heavyweights obviously), powerlifting/strongmen, etc.

Edit: Yeah in most cases that is indeed true, with the occasional exception, like the dude from Predator with the minigun (Seriously, that guy was a soldier IRL).

You mean like Try Again Bragg?

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Drawing from my own personal experience, I've faced similar criticism in my own time as an American Marine, it's extremely easy to try to paint an organization or historical group with broad brush strokes but it's about as accurate as putting paint on a canvas with a house brush sounds.

But by the same token such an organisation often makes members act in a certain way, especially among outsiders. Soldiers (especially the younger ones) have a tendency to tell military stories and go all "Rah rah, my country!" on you simply because that's all they know at the time. And those are people that probably weren't raised as military from birth. Being part of something where they tell you you are better than others for doing what it takes to join has a powerful effect on your mind.

Bragg from what I understand is nothing short of a physical anomaly.

To be over 100 kilos as a soldier is one thing, but isn't he also over seven feet tall?

100 kilos nothing, Bragg would be pushing 200 lol.

Well he was capable of firing two autocannons at once if I remember correctly.

So he was basically a Space Marine outside of armor.

 Melissia wrote:
Well he was capable of firing two autocannons at once if I remember correctly.

So he was basically a Space Marine outside of armor.

Wiki describes him as over two meters tall, putting him at more or less sevenish feet.

And based on that feat, I guess he's also the Ser Gregor Clegane of the Imperial Guard, lol? Though, he shares the title with Harker...

 Furyou Miko wrote:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:I dunno why you people are talking about combat capable/effective (and there is a difference) females like that's not insanely awesome AND hot.

This comment is utterly misogynistic and sexist. As a feminist, I am disgusted with you.

As a lesbian, I kinda agree though.

As a feminist I fail to see how finding a woman who can pull her weight in a fight attractive is at all negative in any way. Wear pants, vote, get paid equally, fine that's just a matter of course, but can you cover my six or lead an assault? We all have specific features and traits we look for in a partner, mine happens to include the ability to field strip an M16A4 in under a minute. Were I gay I'd fine those traits attractive in males on a personal as well as professional level, but alas I'm straight so I'll just have to hold out for a shield maiden or other warrior woman to team up and fight crime with.

I'm 78.3% sure that she was joking.

That's a pretty low percentage probability wise. Certainly not betting odds.

Nothing worth having in life is without risk.

Thankfully it's just someone's opinion of me based on roughly one sentence on the internet, so the risk is minimal no matter how I respond.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
I dunno why you people are talking about combat capable/effective (and there is a difference) females like that's not insanely awesome AND hot.

You're a weird dude, Devil Dog.

Pouncing on anything even remotely linked to judging a woman by her attractiveness is often held as the standard by which something is judged misogynistic.

V___________D would win that bet, though. I was joking.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
One can absolutely be the consummate professional and still be a complete donkey cave, and still feel they are serving God Emperor and Unit well.

Hmm, I see we have bet before...

-STS

Many organizations appear to be of a hive mind as viewed from the outside. In college I studied the convents of Venice and how they were viewed from the outside was very different to how they were as viewed from the inside.
I was also in the army and soldiers are viewed with one enclosing subculture. Its the variations within that subculture that personality comes through.
A nun for example will be a distinct individual with their own personality and motivations. She will not however, go off to rob a bank and be back in time for Mass. They are somewhat limited by the culture they live in, as we all are.

Very well said. The differences between them would simply be more nuanced, compared to "everyday people". Which I'm sure plays at least one part in why such organisations are seen as a "hive mind". The other being their isolation and general lack of transparency that further hinders a proper look behind closed doors ... but that's what we have the various fluff descriptions for, depending on which interpretation we have chosen to follow.