Hey

I am really getting into the new Tau codex, it's VERY different from the last as there are a ton of options to choose from.

The older version really limited your choices to hammerheads, Suit HQ, XV8's, Firewarriors and broadsides.

Now not only are those units good but the rest of the book has been updated. I feel all of the new rules on the old models demand attention and are worth looking closely at if you want a competitive list.

I've played a handful of games and I'd just like to list a couple key points. PLEASE chime in with your own opinions on these units.

Ones that stand out:

XV8 Commander - This guy seems like the key to the new codex. Theres lot of play with him having FOUR "hardpoints" and a built in multi-tracker and BSF. Theres a lot of options with drone controller, I haven't found a great way to give markerdrones BS5 because if forces the rest of the squad to fire at the same markerlighted squad.

Gun drones are great with this guy. I challenge anyone to find a better gun in the game being fired at BS5 for 12 points.

I have yet to try this loadout but get excited even just thinking about it:

Fusion/Fusion/Stim/Vectored Retro-thrusters/Iridium/Onager and maybe even a jammer if you're feeling ultra frisky.

Firewarriors - They didn't get MANY changes but the indirect buffs they received from overwatch existing and rapid fire rules getting changed are awesome. They come cheap and so does the devilfish. Supporting fire I feel REALLY pushes these guys over the top. Stacking them near another group of units really puts your opponent between a rock and a hard place.

Hammerheads seem unchanged other than the cost. I think they are good still and deserve spot in any army but I don't see more than 1 a lot of the time. Still flexible with submunition and hard to take down with disruption pods and front armor 13. I REALLY wanted longstrike to be good and I feel is very close. Originally reading him I over-valued his overwatch capabilities and tank hunter just isn't as necessary as I thought as st10 blows open most vehicles consistently without it. BS 5 is really nice but ultimately I feel he's not worth it. If my Longstrike tank died turn 1 from a goldfish d6 on the penetration table from my opponent I think I would be sick.

Stealth suits - I think these guys are great now. They are mobile, have great cover saves and their weapons got a sexy buff. No more 6 stealthed shrouded gundrones : ( but they are a cool and effective unit to bring in from reserves I feel.I really dislike the fusion gun on them because it's literally the opposite of burst cannons and I don't want to pay extra for a markerlight and target lock to make an already serviceable unit slightly better.

BROADSIDES - The reason we played Tau originally. Damn those models were cool.

Now I am a little conflicted, Railguns and SMS are very different and we don't have an ASS option anymore so I really hate moving them. I think they are good light vehicle killers but those come a dime a dozen. Expensive for the effects. I position them out in the open to utilize their 2+ save early in the game.

Someone convince me that they are awesome. Please.

I really dislike HYMP's, 30 inches +heavy doesn't make for an effective weapon when the codex already has a ton of MP's avail.

XV8's - The codex still really revolves around these guys, a TON of awesome options opened up once we realized we could double down on weapons.

I love TLMP/MP especially when I mentally designate their unit as my marker light user's.

TL Plasma/Plasma is just so awesome aswell. Nobody is charging these guys without paying a price and they only cost 22 points base.

Awesome unit with a ton of options.

Ethereal's seem like they have promise with their extra shot capabilities.

Fireblade does not, I just always want my firewarriors being mobile and moving in either for linebreaker or to contest or just to get into range. The HQ himself doesn't have an impressive stat line which would've been nice.


Opinions? Please disagree with me on Broadsides. I love them. Old model rocks,

Fireblade.

12 Firewarriors.

A mundane unit and a 'throwaway' cheap HQ just became a awesome reliable combo of doom!

As far as I can make out,

1. Riptides
2. Riptides
3. Riptides

Aijec wrote:

XV8 Commander - This guy seems like the key to the new codex. Theres lot of play with him having FOUR "hardpoints" and a built in multi-tracker and BSF. Theres a lot of options with drone controller, I haven't found a great way to give markerdrones BS5 because if forces the rest of the squad to fire at the same markerlighted squad.

You could always put the commander in a squad of markerdrones.

Aijec wrote:

BROADSIDES - The reason we played Tau originally. Damn those models were cool.

Now I am a little conflicted, Railguns and SMS are very different and we don't have an ASS option anymore so I really hate moving them. I think they are good light vehicle killers but those come a dime a dozen. Expensive for the effects. I position them out in the open to utilize their 2+ save early in the game.

Someone convince me that they are awesome. Please.

I really dislike HYMP's, 30 inches +heavy doesn't make for an effective weapon when the codex already has a ton of MP's avail.

HYMP are 36 inches actually. Also when you shoot 36 shots at pretty much anything with BS 5 (markerlight) TL it will die. In most games my missilesides are far and away my MVP's.

Give broadsides EWO and laugh at any drop pods and even shave off some HP from fliers, even without skyfire.

I've been using a Mark'O quite a bit and freakin love it! BS5 markers are the gak! And when i want to move my broadside i just shoot my Mark'O at that squad and boost his snapfiring BS to whatever i need it to be. I LOVE missilesides! Not a fan of the model, but with railsides going down to S8 i see them getting very limited use in my Army. If i Knew i was going up against a lot of transports or flyers i'd take em, but even then the missilesides are almost always better, with or without skyfire.

Also, you know what i found shines? Kroot! Out flank them and wreak havoc on the back lines, with sniper ammo and acute senses(hound) they can target and kill just about anything you'd want and if not you can move them and rapidfire something, its won me my last 2 games

Pathfinders are my favorite now.

I think nearly every unit in the new Tau codex is viable. It strikes me as perhaps one of the most internally balanced/high-variety Codexes in the game at present.

I had to do some serious thinking. Every slot in this dex is highly contested except troops. I find I short change my troops just to save points for everything else, but even troops are great now. FW are fine, their ride is over priced still, but with minor buffing the FW are awesome, but costs an HQ slot. Kroot are more useful than ever and still cheap.

I find myself not fielding crisis suits at all except with a Marker'O and drone squad. I like the heavy suit theme so it isnt a big deal. I just wish Stealth suits were somewhere else or something unlocked them as troops so I could field them, no room in the elite slots.

 Kingsley wrote:
I think nearly every unit in the new Tau codex is viable. It strikes me as perhaps one of the most internally balanced/high-variety Codexes in the game at present.

"Nearly"?
Find me one unit that don't have potential.

And before you jump "Vespids and stealth", if you haven't seen them in game with their new guns, you will be surprised just how better they got.

Anu'shi is the only questionable dude, and even he has merits in challange lockdown, though that's pretty much strictly an anti-CSM trick.


Taking it further, looking at IA3, it is ALSO damn well balance, and the only units I would not at least consider are the alternate hammerheads and the kroots.

I love the Tau codex, I find that it balanced out the abilities and powers amongst the units very well instead of just making 2 or three units great and the rest mediocre. I have played about 12 games so far and If I learned anything it is that Commander and XV8's with dual wielding plasma are pure fury.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:
I think nearly every unit in the new Tau codex is viable. It strikes me as perhaps one of the most internally balanced/high-variety Codexes in the game at present.

"Nearly"?
Find me one unit that don't have potential.

And before you jump "Vespids and stealth", if you haven't seen them in game with their new guns, you will be surprised just how better they got.

Anu'shi is the only questionable dude, and even he has merits in challange lockdown, though that's pretty much strictly an anti-CSM trick.


Taking it further, looking at IA3, it is ALSO damn well balance, and the only units I would not at least consider are the alternate hammerheads and the kroots.

yeah Stingwings are just so much better and i already used them anyways!

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
As far as I can make out,

1. Riptides
2. Riptides
3. Riptides

False. Riptides can't put out the necessary firepower to be an excellent choice.

1. XV8-02 Commander

An XV8 team is a quintessentially Tau unit. Taking a unit of 3 XV8s led by a Tau Commander in XV8-02 armour with stimulant injector makes a min-riptide in toughness - The tau commander can even rely on the 5+ FNP as an invulnerable save since the only thing that can take it away from him are S10 weapons. IF his wounds drop too low or he is beset by a S10 weapon, throw a drone his way.

2. Riptides

Riptides are incredibly tough. Throw a riptide stimulant on them, or not and you have a unit that will either draw so much firepower first turn that your army won't be hurt, or will be ignored and given free reign over your opponent's heavy infantry and tanks.

3. Pathfinders

Pathfinders are the bread and butter support unit of Tau. You can't really get away with not having them, unless you're running a farsight bomb with a C&CN and MSSS.

4. Gun Drones.

Gun drones keep pace with your suits and can take hits for them. They can also put out an impressive amount of firepower, being more about 5% more accurate base than your BS3 XV8 suits.

5. Ionheads

a S8 large blast with a long range. BS4. Long fangs may not be godlike anymore, but this would hurt them. This also makes blood angels a thing of the past, since deepstriking with one of these on the field is the most dangerous endeavour ever.

Oh, they also work on anything that's T6 or worse - 3 S7AP3 shots will potentially kill 3 T63+ save wraithguard - enough to make back most of the ionhead's points.

I don't take Pathfinders—I just give my commander a target lock and a drone controller and anywhere from 2 to 12 marker drones.

It be easier to just list things that are bad in the codex.

and the only thing i can find, which isn't even a unit is the pointless burst cannon upgrades on tanks.

edit: also adding in IA3 would be heavy gun drones.

wilsjur wrote:
I don't take Pathfinders—I just give my commander a target lock and a drone controller and anywhere from 2 to 12 marker drones.

If that were why Pathfinders were awesome, I'd agree. Butits not why Pathfinders are awesome. I've only fired my Pathfinder markerlights in a total of one game and once in Overwatch in another game. That's it.

the new options for the XV8s (like not TLing weapons and included MT) have really helped then and makes them a great unit to run in tandam with a rip tide

 Jancoran wrote:

wilsjur wrote:
I don't take Pathfinders—I just give my commander a target lock and a drone controller and anywhere from 2 to 12 marker drones.

If that were why Pathfinders were awesome, I'd agree. Butits not why Pathfinders are awesome. I've only fired my Pathfinder markerlights in a total of one game and once in Overwatch in another game. That's it.

There are lots off different, effective, uses of pathfinders.

The fact that you have done this proves the fact rather than shows them to be effective when not using their marker lights.

i am curious how people use stealth suits and pathfinders effectively. I like the idea of infiltrating 6 Stealthsuits and jump out, gak out infantry, JSJ back in cover (yea, danger tests but not that worried about it). Problem is its an elite slot and i seem to always depend HEAVILY on my crisis deepstrikers or long-range riptides to deal with heavier things.

FA is the weakest in the codex to me. Literally every thing else has a use except our fliers, vespids, or prahnas. Pathfinders i just havent figured out how to use them yet, and of course markerdrones are epic even without a mark'O with them because theyre far more mobile than pathfinders, slightly more durable (T4 and 4+ vs T3 and 5+), can JSJ, and are Relentless so none of this snapfiring markerlight bullcrap. 3 more points for all that....yes please....only drawback being its almost impossible to get cover saves since drones are so tiny and elevated so high.

Also to the guy with the HUGE mark'o group....dafuq are you taking 12 marker drones for if you got a mark'o in there? Huge waste of points because thats going to be ~9-11 marks on ONE unit since drones cant splitfire (unless i missed something allowing them) and you will never need THAT many marks on something. Better off cutting that in half and not having a mark'o with the other 6.

I actually really like Pathfinders and Stealth Suits in the same army. Stealths can get close to the back edge, allowing back edge outflanking with the Positional Relay, and the Pathfinders can outflank with a metric ton of S5 shots or their special weapons. The good part is that it's not like you have to designate them as outflankers in an army list. You can just adapt them to whatever is advantageous to terrain and opposing army.

Look at a squad of 8 with EMP grenades and no weapon upgrades. It can stay back and use Markers, then switch to carbines and EMPs as needed if targets get close. It can also outflank (outflank to the rear with Stealth support), bringing all those S5 shots to the side and rear of vehicles, and posing a threat to any armor with EMP grenades. You could also go after backfield objective holders or firepower units like Long Fangs, and take a sizable chunk with just the carbines. In all their forms, they help you put force where you want it. As Markerlighters, they enhance whatever weapons are most important. As scouts or outflankers, they put their own guns where you might not otherwise be able to get them. Regardless, they can switch roles from game to game (in a tournament setting), or even within games as conditions change.

 Jancoran wrote:

wilsjur wrote:
I don't take Pathfinders—I just give my commander a target lock and a drone controller and anywhere from 2 to 12 marker drones.

If that were why Pathfinders were awesome, I'd agree. Butits not why Pathfinders are awesome. I've only fired my Pathfinder markerlights in a total of one game and once in Overwatch in another game. That's it.

What the feth

That is why sane people take markerlights.

You can complete EMP home defence with 9 carbine armed fire warriors. Sure you can't outflank, but if you can't kill the tank first turn it will come to you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:

If that were why Pathfinders were awesome, I'd agree. Butits not why Pathfinders are awesome. I've only fired my Pathfinder markerlights in a total of one game and once in Overwatch in another game. That's it.

There are lots off different, effective, uses of pathfinders.

The fact that you have done this proves the fact rather than shows them to be effective when not using their marker lights.

Well... No offense to your offense, but the fact stands that I have obliterated tank squadrons and Marine units alike with the Pathfinders. Their tanks, which outflank with them, provide them excellent counter protection and their positioning ensures the enemy would be hard pressed tocome assault them. Which leaves only shooting. And with the right Warlord trait and a 3+ cover save, i have found them to be excellent at their jobs.

The Markerlights they carry are nice, but in reality, the Drones and (in my case) Firesight Marksmen, do the Markerlighting. The Pathfinders do a whole lot of killing.

Outflanking is a strategy I used in even 5E for Pathfinders so to see them blossom into the threat they have become in 6E is pretty gratifying.

 Jancoran wrote:
Well... No offense to your offense, but the fact stands that I have obliterated tank squadrons and Marine units alike with the Pathfinders. Their tanks, which outflank with them, provide them excellent counter protection and their positioning ensures the enemy would be hard pressed tocome assault them. Which leaves only shooting. And with the right Warlord trait and a 3+ cover save, i have found them to be excellent at their jobs.

The Markerlights they carry are nice, but in reality, the Drones and (in my case) Firesight Marksmen, do the Markerlighting. The Pathfinders do a whole lot of killing.

Outflanking is a strategy I used in even 5E for Pathfinders so to see them blossom into the threat they have become in 6E is pretty gratifying.

Speaking of which whats your loadout for your pathfinders? do you take the heavy(ish) weapons? im having hard time between rail and ion.

He runs an 8 man squad with all three drones, emp, and 3 railrifles with a devilfish. It ends up almost 290 points.

Really I can't imagine pathfinders outside of support roles. They're too fragile to draw a lot of fire. Their tank is too expensive to act as a shield. It's basically a guard unit that can take 3 special weapons, for twice the cost of a normal guard unit.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
He runs an 8 man squad with all three drones, emp, and 3 railrifles with a devilfish. It ends up almost 290 points.

Really I can't imagine pathfinders outside of support roles. They're too fragile to draw a lot of fire. Their tank is too expensive to act as a shield. It's basically a guard unit that can take 3 special weapons, for twice the cost of a normal guard unit.

Admittedly there special weapons are double shots and can be shot on the move. and there carbines are basically bolters with psy ammo. but god they are fragile which is why i like the idea of reserve protection to attack where it counts. I agree i dislike the devil fish which is still relatively costly.

I actually run 7. but he's close.

And SavageConvoy, you have the annoying habit of clumping points costs together insteadof recognizing that they are in fact TWO units.

The build is 181 points (I think?). They will kill a 230 point assault Squad and then go wreck a vehicle or two while they are at it. I've killed two Hive Tyrants with them in the same game. In MOST games I only lose one of the two units, and sometimes not even that (but Often one). On their own, if you can't reach them with significant shooting, they are fearesome. Even if you do, they go to ground and then use Aun'Va to dust themselves off and drop the survivors.

WITH TWO MARKERLIGHTS (as this apparently needs to be explained to some)

So really when you're dishing out that kinda hurt... Vs T4:
I do 1.77 wounds with the Recon Drone
I do 4.16 wounds with the Railrifles
I do 4.44 wounds with the Carbines
I do 2.81 wounds with the Devilfish+Drones (if you wanna count it)

Against T3, its just...naughty.

Depends on what I'm hitting how many they will save. No one would suggest that this is anything but a blizzard of wounds, I hope.

The units position is the key to its value even were it to be doing less damage. Also, the reality that you really cant charge it even when it has no supporting fire is a big difference between it and other units.

Once it disposes of one unit (and by the way, it has killed entire IG artillery batteries in one go), it can even assault another. Because they will take some attrition after they fire, a tank is an ideal second target but they can just repeat fire or jump in the fish and zoom to contest stuff.

I see a ton of production from them. My last two games at Top Table (won one, lost one) saw the Pathfinders make game breaking differences in the outcome.

All without really any use of Markerlights. but if you;r desperate, oneof the two units can certainly use a Markerlight or two to help out. On Overwatch its nice sometimes to help other units out but such a low percentage play that you're kinda btter off just doing damage if you can.

You have a real bad habit of magically upgrading units without changing the point cost.
BS2 drone gets 4 shots, 1.33 hits, .88 wounds, .296 failed saves.
BS3 pathfinder gets 2 shots, 1 hit, .66 wounds, .22 failed saves.
BS3 rail rifle gets 1 shot, .5 hits, .42 wounds, .28 failed wounds.
Dronex1 gets .296 failed saves
Pathfindersx4 get .88 failed saves
Rail riflesx3 get .84 failed saves.

All without any use of markerlights.

 Jancoran wrote:
I actually run 7. but he's close.

And SavageConvoy, you have the annoying habit of clumping points costs together insteadof recognizing that they are in fact TWO units.

The build is 181 points (I think?). They will kill a 230 point assault Squad and then go wreck a vehicle or two while they are at it. I've killed two Hive Tyrants with them in the same game. In MOST games I only lose one of the two units, and sometimes not even that (but Often one). On their own, if you can't reach them with significant shooting, they are fearesome. Even if you do, they go to ground and then use Aun'Va to dust themselves off and drop the survivors.

So really when you're dishing out that kinda hurt... Vs T4:
I do 1.77 wounds with the Recon Drone
I do 4.16 wounds with the Railrifles
I do 4.44 wounds with the Carbines
I do 2.81 wounds with the Devilfish+Drones (if you wanna count it)

Against T3, its just...naughty.

Depends on what I'm hitting how many they will save. No one would suggest that this is anything but a blizzard of wounds, I hope.

The units position is the key to its value even were it to be doing less damage. Also, the reality that you really cant charge it even when it has no supporting fire is a big difference between it and other units.

Once it disposes of one unit (and by the way, it has killed entire IG artillery batteries in one go), it can even assault another. Because they will take some attrition after they fire, a tank is an ideal second target but they can just repeat fire or jump in the fish and zoom to contest stuff.

I see a ton of production from them. My last two games at Top Table (won one, lost one) saw the Pathfinders make game breaking differences in the outcome.

All without really any use of Markerlights. but if you;r desperate, oneof the two units can certainly use a Markerlight or two to help out. On Overwatch its nice sometimes to help other units out but such a low percentage play that you're kinda btter off just doing damage if you can.

What's kind of math are you using?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/517337.page

basically my run down on just about everything in Tau so far. I'm working on the Eldar atm so I should have some favorite combos soon. So much to experiment on! (trying to and failing so far to figure out what's the point to banshees for example)

I don't actually play Tau, but I can tell you that from my time playing against them I've learned that Kroot are actually startlingly good at anti-infantry shooting. I played a guy who used a full Kroot squad with an Ethereal behind an Aegis defense line; they wiped out my Ravenwing contingent all on their own.

Cmdr with CnC, MSS, IA and Puretide joined to a Ion Riptide and 1 Shielded Missile drone. You have a 10 W, T6 unit with a 2+/4++, ignores cover and re-roll almost everything. It's expensive but can take almost anything that is thrown at it and lays down alot of fire. You can reliably lay down a S8 AP2 template everyturn with out gets hot or a huge scatter that ignores cover. So only invul or FnP will save that unit

Most of the already been touched on. But as a person who doesn't play tau but plays against it. The things that pop out to me are salvosides(missile broadsides), kroot, ethereals, buff commanders, riptide, and skyrays.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
You have a real bad habit of magically upgrading units without changing the point cost.
BS2 drone gets 4 shots, 1.33 hits, .88 wounds, .296 failed saves.
BS3 pathfinder gets 2 shots, 1 hit, .66 wounds, .22 failed saves.
BS3 rail rifle gets 1 shot, .5 hits, .42 wounds, .28 failed wounds.
Dronex1 gets .296 failed saves
Pathfindersx4 get .88 failed saves
Rail riflesx3 get .84 failed saves.

All without any use of markerlights.

Why would you bother saying that? They will have Markerlights.

And they can't benefit from their own Markerlights. So something else would have to light up the target to improve the expected failed saves.

obviously. yes.

I hate turning this kind of thread which should have nothing to do with list hammering really, into a list discussion.

But as a reminder, the list I have (not in front of me, but this is damn close:

3 FirsightMarksmen + 3 Sniper Drones

2x 10 FW

2 x 10 Kroot+6 hounds+ 3 Krootox

2 x Riptides

3 Crisis suits (TL Melta + Flamer)

utility Commander

Aun'Va

Marker Drone Swarm

2 x 7 Pathfinders (all three Drones, 3 x Rail Rifles).

cowmonaut wrote:
And they can't benefit from their own Markerlights. So something else would have to light up the target to improve the expected failed saves.

And that's where the Firesight Marksmen and Sniper Drones previously mentioned come into play. BS5 Markerlights and Sniper rifles ready and waiting to light up that target and possibly add another couple of wounds.

In regards to his maths, I would assume he is within 15" of the target (as the Recon Drone only has an 18" range gun anyway so you're almost there to begin with) and therefore rapid firing with the Rail Rifles, so it would be 6 shots, not 3.

Correct, a Town called Malus

Whats your justification for more than one kroot hound?

they are weaker than before and only really good for acute senses, and the additional bodies only hurt the unit by increasing 25% moral limit.

i would figure leaving 1 hound and back filling extra kroot would be better as extra shooting
(though i love that i can make nice numbers blocks of 75 for 10 sniper kroot + 1 hound and a 100pts for +krootox)

but krootoxs are awesome. just got 2 more the other day.

My justification is that they allow turn 1 charges. other threads cover this pretty well. But basically you need more than one because of attrition, to pull it off and string the hounds out.

 Jancoran wrote:
My justification is that they allow turn 1 charges. other threads cover this pretty well. But basically you need more than one because of attrition, to pull it off and string the hounds out.

Wait. please link that thread, because its generally impossible to get a turn 1 charge.

you cant infiltrate then charge and you cant outflank and charge and if you deploy normally, you will be more that 24 inchs away meaning your hounds will move 12" maybe get box cars on the charge but you will be more than that close enough every time. (Eternal War missions,a player's deployment zone is defined as anywhere in their own table half that is more than 12" from the central line brb pg 121)

the only way its possible is if your opponent infiltrates close to you or if they scout move. edit: also your opponent getting first turn and moving close to you but that is entirely dependent on your opponent or your playing some kinda other game type/house missions that will allow you to.

Edit: additional edit, with a 3" pile in pretty much only your kroot hounds will fight while the rest of your models will slowly close the gap leading to less attacks for you and more attacks for your opponent. additionally with a krootox you cant fire it first then charge as it is rapid fire so the addition kinda hurts the overall unit if it needed to charge.

 Jancoran wrote:

Why would you bother saying that? They will have Markerlights.

Well, I said that because you were somehow getting numbers higher by a significant amount even though you said

All without really any use of Markerlights. but if you;r desperate, oneof the two units can certainly use a Markerlight or two to help out.

Meaning that you weren't using markerlights in your original numbers, which are still off.
If the rail rifles are at half range,
6 shots, 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 1.67 failed saves. Still well off of the 4.16 quoted. At BS5 6 shots, 5 hits, 4.16 wounds, 2.78 failed saves assuming 5+ cover.
You're only getting the 4.16 if you're using 4 markerlights.
4 pathfinders, get 8 shots, 6.67 hits, 4.44 wounds, 1.48 failed saves.
recon drone gets 4 shots, 2.67 hits, 1.78 wounds, .59 failed saves.
Total for 2 markerlights: 4.85 MEQ wounds for the cost of 194 points, or 40 points per wound.
The math is also really off when you don't factor in saves, which are a huge factor involved since the standard 3+ save cuts the wounds down to a 1/3 of the original wounds rolled.

 Desubot wrote:

Wait. please link that thread, because its generally impossible to get a turn 1 charge.

you cant infiltrate then charge and you cant outflank and charge and if you deploy normally, you will be more that 24 inchs away meaning your hounds will move 12" maybe get box cars on the charge but you will be more than that close enough every time. (Eternal War missions,a player's deployment zone is defined as anywhere in their own table half that is more than 12" from the central line brb pg 121)

the only way its possible is if your opponent infiltrates close to you or if they scout move. edit: also your opponent getting first turn and moving close to you but that is entirely dependent on your opponent or your playing some kinda other game type/house missions that will allow you to.

Edit: additional edit, with a 3" pile in pretty much only your kroot hounds will fight while the rest of your models will slowly close the gap leading to less attacks for you and more attacks for your opponent. additionally with a krootox you cant fire it first then charge as it is rapid fire so the addition kinda hurts the overall unit if it needed to charge.

There are way too many provisos in here so let me just clarify things for those reading:

If you go in the second player turn... You can charge. Hounds are BEASTS. You're infiltrating 18" away. So. yes. Having more hounds most definitely helps allow you to make that charge and the pile in for the enemy generally happens first, THEN the Kroot. So your hounds will allow an average of 19" threat, plus the 6" of pileines that should hlp a lot more of the Kroot get in there.

Nw notice...please please notice... that I did not ever say you must do this every game to win, nor that you WOULD WANT to do it EVERY game. What I said was: it allows it.

Im not really interested in another big discussion on whether someone THINKS it's useful enough. I was just answering the question on why I have more than one.


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 Savageconvoy wrote:


The math is also really off when you don't factor in saves, which are a huge factor involved since the standard 3+ save cuts the wounds down to a 1/3 of the original wounds rolled.

They're not off. And I already told you I wasn't factoring saves. That wasn't information I excluded, was it? And if you look again, i modified the original post to SAY I was using Markerlights JUST so it would be clear to anyone who..somehow...doubted they WOULD be used in a TAU army. Lol.

 Jancoran wrote:
obviously. yes.

I hate turning this kind of thread which should have nothing to do with list hammering really, into a list discussion.

But as a reminder, the list I have (not in front of me, but this is damn close:

3 FirsightMarksmen + 3 Sniper Drones

2x 10 FW

2 x 10 Kroot+6 hounds+ 3 Krootox

2 x Riptides

3 Crisis suits (TL Melta + Flamer)

utility Commander

Aun'Va

Marker Drone Swarm

2 x 7 Pathfinders (all three Drones, 3 x Rail Rifles).

I know you claim to have a ton of success with it, but this is pretty close to a dream list...for your opponent. Substitute some Vespids for the Riptides, and you'd be all set!

I know Broadsides are crazy expensive, but I've had a fairly incredible amount of success with them. They can torrent down just about everything they're actually capable of hurting without too much problem. I also have a soft spot for ionheads (pie plate! woo!) and am developing a warm, fuzzy feeling towards Skyrays. Those skyfire markerlights are pretty darn awesome, and even though you can't rely on them for anti-tank duty throughout the game, you can at least pop a couple light vehicles or 1 heavier target before they become markerlight and SMS platforms.

I'm sorry that I didn't assume every model is BS5 without it being mentioned. I'm sorry that when you said it was done without markers, that I didn't assume you used markers.

Regardless, you're proposing a 190 point unit that is very fragile and needs another support unit to boost it. Your math initially gives the impression that it's getting over 13 wounds without support, then prompted you mention that you gave them two markerlights, which is a huge modifier. When you factor in the saves on top of that, it gives a more truthful image of how damaging this 190 point unit is. The actual damage output with no support is 2.87 unsaved wounds, with support it becomes 4.85 against standard marines. Compare that to a much more survivable suit squad with dual plasma, which can pump out 3.33 unsaved wounds against MEQ at half range without any support while being 38 points cheaper. Doing the math it would take about 30 bolter shots to take down the entire pathfinder unit, while it takes 18 bolters to take down one crisis suit.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:
And they can't benefit from their own Markerlights. So something else would have to light up the target to improve the expected failed saves.

And that's where the Firesight Marksmen and Sniper Drones previously mentioned come into play. BS5 Markerlights and Sniper rifles ready and waiting to light up that target and possibly add another couple of wounds.

I was slowed for a bit there apparently. I honestly have no idea why I mistook what Jancoran said for something other than he meant, which is damned obvious looking at it again. No duh there will be markerlight tokens on what you are shooting at...

Sometimes I wonder if I'm actually losing my mind


Kroot Hounds are alright. They're relatively inexpensive, make okay ablative wounds, and do allow you to charge things you wouldn't normally be able to reach if you play it right. I wouldn't use first turn charges as a basis on why to take them though, given you can't guarantee you won't have the first player turn.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Wait. please link that thread, because its generally impossible to get a turn 1 charge.

you cant infiltrate then charge and you cant outflank and charge and if you deploy normally, you will be more that 24 inchs away meaning your hounds will move 12" maybe get box cars on the charge but you will be more than that close enough every time. (Eternal War missions,a player's deployment zone is defined as anywhere in their own table half that is more than 12" from the central line brb pg 121)

the only way its possible is if your opponent infiltrates close to you or if they scout move. edit: also your opponent getting first turn and moving close to you but that is entirely dependent on your opponent or your playing some kinda other game type/house missions that will allow you to.

Edit: additional edit, with a 3" pile in pretty much only your kroot hounds will fight while the rest of your models will slowly close the gap leading to less attacks for you and more attacks for your opponent. additionally with a krootox you cant fire it first then charge as it is rapid fire so the addition kinda hurts the overall unit if it needed to charge.

There are way too many provisos in here so let me just clarify things for those reading:

If you go in the second player turn... You can charge. Hounds are BEASTS. You're infiltrating 18" away. So. yes. Having more hounds most definitely helps allow you to make that charge and the pile in for the enemy generally happens first, THEN the Kroot. So your hounds will allow an average of 19" threat, plus the 6" of pileines that should hlp a lot more of the Kroot get in there.

Nw notice...please please notice... that I did not ever say you must do this every game to win, nor that you WOULD WANT to do it EVERY game. What I said was: it allows it.

Im not really interested in another big discussion on whether someone THINKS it's useful enough. I was just answering the question on why I have more than one.

Didn't ever say you where always doing it so please please notice im not trying to argue. im stating that your turn 1 justification makes nearly no sense as its unreliable at best. and that if your talking about infiltrating then waiting for your next turn then that's not really turn 1 now is it?

and i would like the link to that other thread so i can read the full discussion.

Well, for what it's worth my optimal units for markerlights would be;

6 pathfinders
or
3 firesight marksmen with drones
or
9 marker drones
or
4 drones with buff commander

Why? Because 3 markerlight tokens lets a riptide fire at BS 6. It can also do ignore cover and +1 BS, or +1 bs for 3 units (I tend to run 3 units of fire warriors and put each suit in a separate squad).

Just my take on things.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I'm sorry that I didn't assume every model is BS5 without it being mentioned. I'm sorry that when you said it was done without markers, that I didn't assume you used markers.

Regardless, you're proposing a 190 point unit that is very fragile and needs another support unit to boost it. Your math initially gives the impression that it's getting over 13 wounds without support, then prompted you mention that you gave them two markerlights, which is a huge modifier. When you factor in the saves on top of that, it gives a more truthful image of how damaging this 190 point unit is. The actual damage output with no support is 2.87 unsaved wounds, with support it becomes 4.85 against standard marines. Compare that to a much more survivable suit squad with dual plasma, which can pump out 3.33 unsaved wounds against MEQ at half range without any support while being 38 points cheaper. Doing the math it would take about 30 bolter shots to take down the entire pathfinder unit, while it takes 18 bolters to take down one crisis suit.

Never said it was done without markers. Ever. I just said the Pathfinders didn't fire them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:

I know you claim to have a ton of success with it, but this is pretty close to a dream list...for your opponent. Substitute some Vespids for the Riptides, and you'd be all set!

And I hope that my opponents continue to feel that way. I'll have yet another chance to experience their "joy" on Saturday, as i am going to a tourney.

Current record: 16-3-1

I imagine they will be dreaming. Whether its before or after I knock them out is another story. Ha ha! That was fun to say.

But seriously. I'm not really thinking this is the place for a list discussion. The question was: what shines in this book. I'm telling you that Pathfinders do. I said why. I DO like the Kroot hounds as well, though "shining" is probably a REAL strong word for how I feel. closer to the mark might be "useful".

I always attempt for 5 markers on a Riptide or Ionhead just for the BS6 gets hot re-roll and ignoring cover, but I was also having a very bad run of rolling 10+ for scatter.

I personally use commander with two drones and tossed into a marker drone unit. 6 BS5 markers, 5 tokens, one fully buffed Riptide or Ionhead. I plan on running two of those, with two Riptides, and two Railgun hammerheads and seeing how that pans out.

That's a reasonable plan. More is usually better. In my "semi competitive" list where I just take what seems more effective rather than what I think might be fun to play that day I have 2 squads of 8 pathfinders and a commander with 6 marker drones. Unfortunately I'm always tempted to just shoot the pathfinders pulse weapons once enemies get close since my ethereal gives them so many shots (enemies will get close. my opponents have an unhealthy love for deep striking, interceptor is a wonderful thing).

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I always attempt for 5 markers on a Riptide or Ionhead just for the BS6 gets hot re-roll and ignoring cover, but I was also having a very bad run of rolling 10+ for scatter.

I personally use commander with two drones and tossed into a marker drone unit. 6 BS5 markers, 5 tokens, one fully buffed Riptide or Ionhead. I plan on running two of those, with two Riptides, and two Railgun hammerheads and seeing how that pans out.

another option is to take body guards with target locks + missile pods and double m drones each. it provides extra shooting and up to 6 marker drones which is good enough for most applications. Add in the forgeworld marker light suit on the HQ then that's 7 hits at BS 5 which is more than enough for a riptide. better yet add in a support suit and have reroll to hits if you really want.

 Desubot wrote:

another option is to take body guards with target locks + missile pods and double m drones each. it provides extra shooting and up to 6 marker drones which is good enough for most applications. Add in the forgeworld marker light suit on the HQ then that's 7 hits at BS 5 which is more than enough for a riptide. better yet add in a support suit and have reroll to hits if you really want.

I'm no expert, but in my opinion that formation might run into problems with "points vs effectiveness".

I try to make everything in my army cheap, simple, and with multiple layers of redundancy. It's why every one of my crisis/broadside suits is in a separate squad (probably just a holdover habit form the last codex I haven't broken yet).

My friend tried getting me to try out the commander + bodyguards + 6 marker drones. I found it a bit confusing for how I play.
It runs down like this.
I shoot this unit first before other units, getting 12 missiles and 6 markers at two units. No need to buff it, most weapons are BS5. Rolling missiles I get reliable hits from the commander and about 50% from the bodyguards, which really makes me think I could have saved 10 points with twin-linked m.pods instead.

I try to run them as units that either don't need support and units that could use support.
Riptides could use support, because 4 shots that wound TEQ on 2+ and ignore armor at 24" is decent on a BS3 MC and the blast can be worth the risk thanks to blasts being auto-hits.
Kroot could use support. I can either outflank and hope for volume of fire or try to sniper down MC depending on the lists. Markers just help the unit out, but aren't really required. I use markers with them if it's suitable, but never really plan on it.
Crisis suits with multiple weapons could always use a BS boost, since it means more hits with their volume of fire. Without markers they still perform good, but they really could use them thanks to their potential.
Marker drones plus missile commander don't need support. They are BS5, markers don't give saves, and AP4 really won't be a factor for the missile pods a majority of the time.
When I combine the suits with Volume of Fire and a unit that doesn't need support I tend to not get what I want from the unit.

Hey, got a very n00b question here but i cant seem to find the points costs for the crisis suit weapons and systems.... i found the actual list for them but not the costs, can someone help me with the page #?

 Somedude593 wrote:
Hey, got a very n00b question here but i cant seem to find the points costs for the crisis suit weapons and systems.... i found the actual list for them but not the costs, can someone help me with the page #?

95.

@wombat. iv tried varriations of that and it works fine. its expensive but the extra double missile pods helped as i needed more anti light tanks. for 10 points extra each i got more room for one more riptide.

thanks

There is no reason to have 6 marker drones in a command squad. You want to have drones in the unit for the wounds but 6 bs5 marker hits is overkill because you will be shooting at a unit that should already be pretty much dead thanks to your command squad. In truth you only need 2 makerdrones in that unit. The reason being is you are really only going to use those marker lights on firewarriors/kroot to mop up those last few guys. Those 4 extra gun drones are going to kill 1.72 more MEQs and force a pinning check.

The way I see markerlights, you only "need" to remove cover if you have an ap3 or lower weapon. At ap4 or higher chances are removing cover won't matter too much. So firewarriors, kroot, broadsides w/ missile drones, etc only need 2 markerlights to increase their bs to 5. If your weapon is ap 2/3 large blast (like riptides or hammerheads) then you only need 2 marker lights to remove cover. Increasing bs is nice but largely not needed. Crisis suits tend to need the most marker lights, needing at least 2 to remove cover (or that plasma goes to waste) and any extra markerlights are just a bonus.

I like to run a unit of 6 pathfinders for my riptides, a unit of 8 pathfinders for my crisis suits and a unit of 2 marker drones in my crisis suits for my firewarriors. Since I have an open heavy slot I would like to try 3 sniper drones and 3 markers they may replace my 6 pathfinders for my riptide.

 lambsandlions wrote:
There is no reason to have 6 marker drones in a command squad. You want to have drones in the unit for the wounds but 6 bs5 marker hits is overkill because you will be shooting at a unit that should already be pretty much dead thanks to your command squad. In truth you only need 2 makerdrones in that unit. The reason being is you are really only going to use those marker lights on firewarriors/kroot to mop up those last few guys. Those 4 extra gun drones are going to kill 1.72 more MEQs and force a pinning check.

I think I'm missing some context here. I already explained why I bring 6 drones, to get 5 tokens to buff one Riptide. The commander or command squads will always have target locks so they can fire at a separate unit, that way you weaken one and light another one up so a Riptide can take it down in one shot. There are plenty of reasons to bring BS5 markers and it's very hard to ever bring too many especially with the increased number of Gets Hot weapons and low AP blasts.

The way I see markerlights, you only "need" to remove cover if you have an ap3 or lower weapon. At ap4 or higher chances are removing cover won't matter too much. So firewarriors, kroot, broadsides w/ missile drones, etc only need 2 markerlights to increase their bs to 5. If your weapon is ap 2/3 large blast (like riptides or hammerheads) then you only need 2 marker lights to remove cover. Increasing bs is nice but largely not needed. Crisis suits tend to need the most marker lights, needing at least 2 to remove cover (or that plasma goes to waste) and any extra markerlights are just a bonus.

Again, Riptides and Ionheads do benefit from having a higher BS. BS6 allows them to re-roll gets hot and having a higher BS means they have to roll a higher number in order to completely miss the target. Suits also benefit since they go from 50% accuracy to 66% or 83% with a few more. Is it required? Not really. But it does increase the quality of shooting and makes one unit far more effective.

I'm kinda shocked we haven't had much talk on Piranha squads.

One might not be much, but a squad of five could put some hurt down if left alone, And if you're opponent shoots at the Piranhas instead of, oh say.... Crisis suits, Fire Warriors, Various Markerlight sources, Then the Piranhas are doing their job.

And a free squad of Gun Drones doesn't hurt.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I'm kinda shocked we haven't had much talk on Piranha squads.

One might not be much, but a squad of five could put some hurt down if left alone, And if you're opponent shoots at the Piranhas instead of, oh say.... Crisis suits, Fire Warriors, Various Markerlight sources, Then the Piranhas are doing their job.

And a free squad of Gun Drones doesn't hurt.

I have always wanted to run piranhas, but that and the sky-ray are the two units in the codex I have never fielded (I've even brought vespds along for the lulz a few times, but that was old codex).

My main issue with them is that they are a fast attack choice. So many cool things in the tau army end up forced into fast attack (XV9 suits...really? They should have been made an option for your bodyguard if you ask me).

My fast attack in "fun" lists usually looks like "2x units with markerlights, 1x other unit that looks fun or useful (outflanking rail pathfidners with darkstrider and recon drone, barracuda, XV9 suits)". At some point I will have to sit down and crunch numbers on expected kill returns with markerlight boosts vs just slapping another unit on the table. But I don't want to think that hard about toy soldiers

If only I had the opportunity to play more games, I could test random lists to see how all these other units do. As it is I only get to play rarely, so all my lists look pretty similar.

Coyote81 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

The build is 181 points (I think?).

So really when you're dishing out that kinda hurt... Vs T4:
I do 1.77 wounds with the Recon Drone
I do 4.16 wounds with the Railrifles
I do 4.44 wounds with the Carbines
I do 2.81 wounds with the Devilfish+Drones (if you wanna count it)

Against T3, its just...naughty.

What's kind of math are you using?

1. You think or you know it is 181. It doesn't matter what you think

2. I don't care how many wounds you cause, I care how many they don't save. 13 wounds is about 4 dead marines. 48 points from a squad you THINK is 181.

For the price of 70 more, I can take an XV8 unit and be almost assured to kill that tactical marine squad. That's with no markerlight support.

You're using a support unit as an anti infantry in a codex that puts out a humongous amount of anti infantry firepower. For 10 more, you can take a broadside team that puts out higher strength firepower, more of it, and has a save of 2+.

Who the feth cares how you do against T3? Guardsmen can deal with T3.

In case anyone was curious, the 7-man Pathfinder squad in question here - max drones and rail rifles - actually costs 190 points or 270 if you're counting the Devilfish. Under optimal circumstances, which we'll say include having BS 5 due to markerlight support and being within rapid fire range of the rail rifles, the unit dishes out a total of 6.39 dead MEQs per turn, plus another 0.5 or so for the Devilfish's drones. We'll be nice and call it 7 marines total, per turn.

Since the tactical versatility of pathfinders has been cited as a reason why this squad is awesome, let's compare them first with Kroot, which can also infiltrate/outflank. 190 points of Kroot rapid-firing **without markerlights** will kill just over 5 marines per turn, on average. With BS 5, that number increases to almost 8.5. Those numbers skew even more in favor of the Kroot when wimpier targets are considered. Note that Kroot are also far more resilient by virtue of having 24 more wounds to whittle down than the Pathfinders, and they also are scoring. Furthermore, they don't take up a precious Fast Attack (i.e., markerlight) force org spot.

Sure, that Kroot unit doesn't do much against vehicles, but swap in some Krootoxes if you're really that concerned about your troops having some anti-armor, for whatever reason. The two units are roughly comparable against monstrous creatures (T6/3+ target), putting out ~2 wounds without markerlights and ~3 with them.

If you factor in the extra 14 Kroot you could get for the price of a Devilfish, things look worse still for the Pathfinders. Basically, I see no reason whatsoever to use Pathfinders this way. They're awesome support units, so use them for what they're good at.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

The build is 181 points (I think?).

So really when you're dishing out that kinda hurt... Vs T4:
I do 1.77 wounds with the Recon Drone
I do 4.16 wounds with the Railrifles
I do 4.44 wounds with the Carbines
I do 2.81 wounds with the Devilfish+Drones (if you wanna count it)

Against T3, its just...naughty.

What's kind of math are you using?

1. You think or you know it is 181. It doesn't matter what you think

2. I don't care how many wounds you cause, I care how many they don't save. 13 wounds is about 4 dead marines. 48 points from a squad you THINK is 181.

4 of those wounds are AP1 so that'll be 7 dead marines actually.

Rail rifles will put out 2.78, since you have to at least assume a 5+ save from cover. With the carbines and drones getting another 2.07 past armor. Only 4.85 dead marines.

Unless I'm being silly and not assuming every unit can get 4 marker tokens to support them.

Another thing that pathfinders have going for them is that they can take a recon drone, so if you have any other reserves in your army then you can vector them on top of your pathfinders and get a reasonably large secondary force behind your opponent.

Of course, this might not be the best idea in the world, but it sure is fun.

Math Hammer away friends.

As for yesterdays festivities, here are a few Pathfinder hi-lites for you.

1st Game, vs dual Storm Raven list with Dual Baal Predators and Dual Fragiosos:

I misunderstood him when speaking about the Storm Ravens and had the impression that he had dudes in hem. Because of the error, I lost 7-6 by firing at the wrong target in the ending round. However, BECAUSE of the Pathfinder threat (after all, I have two of them), he literally conceded most of the field to me and even retreated most of his stuff away from me. He simply could not win if he walked into that. So he sent his Storm Ravens ALONE to try and win it for him. He got lucky there and did just enough, but you should have seen the battlefield. At games end, we LITERALLY had taken over each others deployment zones and it took every shot he had to get the lat two points he needed. Close game, but it was most definitely the Pathfinders he feared. He had two units that could have pushed on me, and he just begged off as the game was too close to risk anything unarmored.

The impact of those two units was pretty impressive there. They ended up KILLING his Fragioso, which the Kroot would not have done. They also killed an entire squad of Marines and a Drop pod! DarkStrider never even got out of his devilfish for this game until the last round when I got out to take side potshots at a Baal Predator, but that was just to try and tie it up and he managed tyo avoid that with FOUR cover saves! It was, needless to say, very close.

His MVP was the Fragiosi which in one fell swoop anihilated my commander and his drone swarm. He made a really ballsy drop and it paid off in round 1.

Second game.
I fought a Dark Angels player with two very tough Land Raiders. You dont see people taking advantage of those very often but they can take a pummelling.

In this game, a single Pathfinder squad killed a Whirlwind, a Tactical squad and a devastator squad plus 1 Terminator. Here again, DarkStrider never even got out of his Devilfish. this game was over MUCH more decisively. I ended up tabling him. The Pathfinders outflanked and caught the whirlwind by surprise. He fired down on me, but I was in ruins and able to take cover, minimal damage. I then popped the Dev squad while the kroot launched shots into the tactical marines, killing a few. Near the end, the Pathfinders finished all of the 7 remaining marines. Total kills was 13 marines and a Whirlwind for the one unit, plus then one stray terminator (who was all that was left from the Crisis Teams and other shooting). Excellent production and here again the htreat of a second unit of Pathfindeers was enough to keep him surging in the opposite direction and into the Riptides.

Game 3:
I played NidZilla. VERY typical Psyker build.

In this game DarkStrider was much more important. The Pathfinders killed two Gaunt units, and a Tervigon.

The second unit outflanked on the opposite side and killed the Warloird Hive Tyrant after it got grounded by another unit. and finished a Devilgaunt unit and its drop pod.

Both units got roughed up more in this game than they did in any other, from Biovore fire and from gaunt shooting. Nonetheless, very effective and they didn't die.

So just a little report on yesterdays tourney results. Pretty fun.

In this game, a single Pathfinder squad killed a Whirlwind, a Tactical squad and a devastator squad plus 1 Terminator.

They ended up KILLING his Fragioso, which the Kroot would not have done. They also killed an entire squad of Marines and a Drop pod!

The Pathfinders killed two Gaunt units, and a Tervigon.
The second unit outflanked on the opposite side and killed the Warloird Hive Tyrant after it got grounded by another unit. and finished a Devilgaunt unit and its drop pod.

This makes me believe that at least one of several things is going on: 1) you have the most ridiculous luck ever, 2) your opponent just kind of left your pathfinders alone for some reason to do as they please, 3) these accounts are embellished, and/or 4) the people you play against have absolutely no idea what they're doing. These are guardsmen we're talking about, T3 bodies with a 5+ save. They pack a bit of a punch, no doubt, but they're still 7 squishy wounds - 10 with drones. Cover or not, those guys are going to be eating some firepower once they're near threat range. Models that expensive and that fragile are AWESOME targets for, well, everything. I count 4 turns of shooting to get that many marine kills in game 2. There's not a chance in hell your Pathfinders could survive that long if someone actually bothered to pay them any attention. Let's not forget that you could only realistically hurt the Furioso from the rear, so basic Kroot could, indeed, have done that with or without Krootox support.

However, BECAUSE of the Pathfinder threat (after all, I have two of them), he literally conceded most of the field to me and even retreated most of his stuff away from me. He simply could not win if he walked into that.

This makes me think that 4) above is at least part of this equation. Your opponent is aware that Storm Ravens have 12 armor, and that the best your "Pathfinder threat" can muster is a glance against them, right? I don't really see anything else in your army that would draw small and medium arms target priority unless the Kroot were around and your opponent identified them as the bigger problem. I suppose that would be true, but 1 wound takes a heck of a lot more out of the Pathfinders than it would the Kroot.

By the way, I forgot to mention my newfound love for Piranhas. I use them mostly to block movement, but having highly mobile meltaguns never hurt anyone. Sure, they die in a stiff breeze, but if you've disembarked the drones (which you probably should do ASAP), that doesn't really matter. That's one extra turn that high-strength firepower isn't directed at something more killy. Having an extra horde control unit in the drones is nifty, too. I've thought about saving the 10 points per model and keeping the burst cannons around, but I'm not sure that's a good plan. It's nice to be able to hold up high AV targets AND have a chance of killing them while you block them.

MilkmanAl wrote:
This makes me believe that at least one of several things is going on: 1) you have the most ridiculous luck ever, 2) your opponent just kind of left your pathfinders alone for some reason to do as they please, 3) these accounts are embellished, and/or 4) the people you play against have absolutely no idea what they're doing. These are guardsmen we're talking about, T3 bodies with a 5+ save. They pack a bit of a punch, no doubt, but they're still 7 squishy wounds - 10 with drones. Cover or not, those guys are going to be eating some firepower once they're near threat range. Models that expensive and that fragile are AWESOME targets for, well, everything. I count 4 turns of shooting to get that many marine kills in game 2. There's not a chance in hell your Pathfinders could survive that long if someone actually bothered to pay them any attention. Let's not forget that you could only realistically hurt the Furioso from the rear, so basic Kroot could, indeed, have done that with or without Krootox support.

I'll go with options 1,2,3 and 4 alex for 500.

Joking aside, I completely agree. Even a 10man assault marine unit shooting will inflict some serious damage on pathfinders. I just don't see any of this happening within reason.

I was wondering about the possibility of using Piranha as well. Giving them burst cannons, keeping drones, and giving them the ability to overwatch just so one or two Piranha could offer a little firesupport and blocking for some units. At 50 ppm they're not too much of an investment to throw away and they're fast enough to get where they need to go quickly. Dropping off the drones also lets them block for two different units so it's not a bad idea and even offers a small unit a commander can jump into for extra wounds if he runs out of drones.

Being able to shoot at fliers with BS better than 1 without skyfire, penalty-free interceptor fire with your highest firepower units, Av13 vehicles that get a 4+ cover save out in the open, ignoring cover saves, ignoring night fighting, army-wide overwatch, being able to give units gets hot, a special character that pushes the auto-win button against imperial guard...

... I don't know. You tell me what shines...

Coyote81 wrote:

I'll go with options 1,2,3 and 4 alex for 500.

Joking aside, I completely agree. Even a 10man assault marine unit shooting will inflict some serious damage on pathfinders. I just don't see any of this happening within reason.

I was very confused for a second because my name is Alex.

Savageconvoy wrote:I was wondering about the possibility of using Piranha as well. Giving them burst cannons, keeping drones, and giving them the ability to overwatch just so one or two Piranha could offer a little firesupport and blocking for some units. At 50 ppm they're not too much of an investment to throw away and they're fast enough to get where they need to go quickly. Dropping off the drones also lets them block for two different units so it's not a bad idea and even offers a small unit a commander can jump into for extra wounds if he runs out of drones.

Actually, that's not a bad plan at all if you're using them to block close to home. They put out a pretty decent amount of firepower for the cost, and an extra round of overwatch sure does sound nice.

MilkmanAl wrote:

This makes me believe that at least one of several things is going on: 1) you have the most ridiculous luck ever, 2) your opponent just kind of left your pathfinders alone for some reason to do as they please, 3) these accounts are embellished, and/or 4) the people you play against have absolutely no idea what they're doing. These are guardsmen we're talking about, T3 bodies with a 5+ save. They pack a bit of a punch, no doubt, but they're still 7 squishy wounds - 10 with drones. Cover or not, those guys are going to be eating some firepower once they're near threat range. Models that expensive and that fragile are AWESOME targets for, well, everything. I count 4 turns of shooting to get that many marine kills in game 2. There's not a chance in hell your Pathfinders could survive that long if someone actually bothered to pay them any attention. Let's not forget that you could only realistically hurt the Furioso from the rear, so basic Kroot could, indeed, have done that with or without Krootox support.

However, BECAUSE of the Pathfinder threat (after all, I have two of them), he literally conceded most of the field to me and even retreated most of his stuff away from me. He simply could not win if he walked into that.

This makes me think that 4) above is at least part of this equation. Your opponent is aware that Storm Ravens have 12 armor, and that the best your "Pathfinder threat" can muster is a glance against them, right? I don't really see anything else in your army that would draw small and medium arms target priority unless the Kroot were around and your opponent identified them as the bigger problem. I suppose that would be true, but 1 wound takes a heck of a lot more out of the Pathfinders than it would the Kroot.

By the way, I forgot to mention my newfound love for Piranhas. I use them mostly to block movement, but having highly mobile meltaguns never hurt anyone. Sure, they die in a stiff breeze, but if you've disembarked the drones (which you probably should do ASAP), that doesn't really matter. That's one extra turn that high-strength firepower isn't directed at something more killy. Having an extra horde control unit in the drones is nifty, too. I've thought about saving the 10 points per model and keeping the burst cannons around, but I'm not sure that's a good plan. It's nice to be able to hold up high AV targets AND have a chance of killing them while you block them.

I love posts like this. In game 1 I was playing an army that had 12-24" range essentially. And you wonder why he was a little concerned? Not enough time in the day to tell you how stupid it is to TRY to intimate that the opponent is the problem so nuff said there. Weakest sauce ever.

I'm telling you what happened. Not what could have. Argue all you like. Play me and you won't be saying that. If you dont wanna use Pathfinders like this, dont. The one thing I never said is that you have to use them like this to win. You don't.

Doubt those 10pts are worth it since drone can fire overwatch anyways, since they are treated like passengers for overwatch purposes. Therefore they can overwatch for their vehicle.

And you wonder why he was a little concerned?

Yeah, I do. The Pathfinders aren't really that big of a threat, and I don't see Stormravens being terribly afraid of your army. One round of shooting from the raven alone is probably enough to take out half your Pathfinders, even if they're in cover. The whole squad might even go down if the raven has hurricane bolters. Even if your opponent didn't want to hide in the Stormraven and you got the jump on him, you'd probably take a chunk out of a squad and then die horribly in return. I'm not sure what the panic was about. I don't tend to worry about losing 2/3 of a basic troops choice to a 190/270 point unit I can easily wipe off the board the next turn with at most 2 squads' worth of shooting.

Doubt those 10pts are worth it since drone can fire overwatch anyways, since they are treated like passengers for overwatch purposes. Therefore they can overwatch for their vehicle.

Oh, interesting. I guess that's not worth it, then.

The storm Ravens...as i said... WERE the only thing that wasn't overly concerned with what I had left. So I...SAID that explicitly.

And it isn't as if Pathfinders were his main target at games end. He needed POINTS at the end. His VERY last salvo, thanks to Machine Spirit, ganked a lone Crisis suit hiding way over yonder which gave him a tie and finally killed three kroot for the game winning point. It was THAT close to a loss for him. He just happened to roll like a champ and i rolled like a not-champ. But even then has DarkStriders unit killed that Baal, we would be tied and then it would be up to the Kroot to down the bird (didn't, but hey).

Point here is real simple: Pathfinders are a great offensive weapon and I hope some imaginative sorts will look into their potential outside of being markerlight caddies.

And if they dont...ok!

 Jancoran wrote:
The storm Ravens...as i said... WERE the only thing that wasn't overly concerned with what I had left. So I...SAID that explicitly.

And it isn't as if Pathfinders were his main target at games end. He needed POINTS at the end. His VERY last salvo, thanks to Machine Spirit, ganked a lone Crisis suit hiding way over yonder which gave him a tie and finally killed three kroot for the game winning point. It was THAT close to a loss for him. He just happened to roll like a champ and i rolled like a not-champ. But even then has DarkStriders unit killed that Baal, we would be tied and then it would be up to the Kroot to down the bird (didn't, but hey).

Point here is real simple: Pathfinders are a great offensive weapon and I hope some imaginative sorts will look into their potential outside of being markerlight caddies.

And if they dont...ok!

I think your missing his point, a great offensive weapon is something that will dish out great offense, and not just disappear at the drop of a hat. T3 5+ saves will never been considered great offensive weapons, even if you gave them all lascannons. The points cost for that unit is just way too high for how not tough it is.

Darkstrider
7x pathfinders 3x railrifle emp
recon drone
grav inhibitor drone
pulse accelerator drone
Devilfish dpod
385pts
and a 2nd unit without darkstrider

your taking about almost 700pts of your armor in 23 effective T3 5+ saves is giving your opponenets problems? Most games they won't have all that much to shoot at, because this is almost half your army. Throw in another 170pts for some markerlgith (since you always assume your units are BS5, you need two a sniper squad to go with each of these teams)

900pts! Are you seriously going to tell me This is 900 points of amazing offense? If you going to tell me that, I'm going to tell you that you can fly as well, and should go test that theory.

 Jancoran wrote:
Math Hammer away friends.

As for yesterdays festivities, here are a few Pathfinder hi-lites for you.

This argument for your pathfinder team is a fallacy

I don't care about experiences. Just because a unit of LD7 pathfinders lost all but one man and he held on insane heroism to markerlight or shoot a vital target, doesn't mean I expect my 1 man pathfinder to do so again.

Tactics in 40k is a bit of statistics and a bit of shenanigans. Sometimes, deployment and movement are important tactics. Everything else we can't measure.

I don't care how you feel your pathfinders went in your game. I care how they will work statistically.

Now, kroot can do a few kills, but I mostly treat them as cannon fodder or to score. The fact that in my last game,13 kroot received a charge from 20 gants and killed all of them does not mean I will throw 13 kroot at gants again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


4 of those wounds are AP1 so that'll be 7 dead marines actually.

This makes such a difference, 84 points.

And when those three boltguns (I'll assume they're boltguns cause I'm a nice guy) shoot and hit 4 times, wounding 3 and killing three... 20ish point pathfinders? Then causing a leadership check which the tem has a... 41% chance of failing?

Yeah. LD7 fails 41% of the time.

Oh, and we won't mention that the squad will then kill its glorious prize of 36 points, totalling up to a max of 150 for its 181 point price tag.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:


By the way, I forgot to mention my newfound love for Piranhas. I use them mostly to block movement, but having highly mobile meltaguns never hurt anyone. Sure, they die in a stiff breeze, but if you've disembarked the drones (which you probably should do ASAP), that doesn't really matter. That's one extra turn that high-strength firepower isn't directed at something more killy. Having an extra horde control unit in the drones is nifty, too. I've thought about saving the 10 points per model and keeping the burst cannons around, but I'm not sure that's a good plan. It's nice to be able to hold up high AV targets AND have a chance of killing them while you block them.

Piranhas can actually be a great distraction I'm finding. They can keep up with my riptide and my suits, as well as detach harrier drones (I call them at because they annoy my opponents flank, and can charge and tie up a unit like Long Fangs, Devastators or even simple tactical marines.)

I'd also point out that piranhas have 8 shots for 40 points - 4 of which are twin linked. - 5 of them are 40 shots, 20 TL. even without ML they kill 5 marines, with BS5 ML they kill 8. They're AV11 otf which means they don't get harmed by most small arms, and they get a junk save of 5+ - better than an AS of 5+.

Did I mention they don't need an HQ and a transport to make them good?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
The storm Ravens...as i said... WERE the only thing that wasn't overly concerned with what I had left. So I...SAID that explicitly.

And it isn't as if Pathfinders were his main target at games end. He needed POINTS at the end. His VERY last salvo, thanks to Machine Spirit, ganked a lone Crisis suit hiding way over yonder which gave him a tie and finally killed three kroot for the game winning point. It was THAT close to a loss for him. He just happened to roll like a champ and i rolled like a not-champ. But even then has DarkStriders unit killed that Baal, we would be tied and then it would be up to the Kroot to down the bird (didn't, but hey).

Point here is real simple: Pathfinders are a great offensive weapon and I hope some imaginative sorts will look into their potential outside of being markerlight caddies.

And if they dont...ok!

I appreciate what you're trying to say here. It's good that you're trying to break out from the norm.

If Pathfinders were troops, I'd have no choice but to agree with you. 6 S6AP1 shots from a troop choice? even at BS3 that's a dead terminator a turn. But Tau can do a dead terminator squad a turn with a riptide, and the riptide can take a greater hit.

You can lie to people if you want to about the efficacy of these units. Andit is a lie. They have been a major factor in 24 out of 24 games. That is a statistic I will trust. You dont have to. Just dont lie and say it didn't happen.

Why do you always do that? You get so defensive when people tell you that statistically speaking your unit is bogus and you think we are somehow lying to people. You got it. We're all Space Marine players trying to cover up this super deathstar unit that only you have ever been able to master because if others start using it then we will have no hope of winning. You got us.

Coyote points out a huge flaw in your unit. 650 points are dedicated to two very flimsy units that in turn also need support units. Here's an idea, bring two riptides with EWO and FNP and SAVE 200 points!!!! That's a third Riptide. You also bring two units in the FA section. That leaves very few units available to support.

Its not 650 points. So that is a lie or just a gross exxageration. Neither one is awesome.

Second, it works. So saying otherwise is...not...true. The ones hell bent on trying to prove otherwise are crusading, not I. I've said repeatedly to you that I dont think you have to use them to win. Thats not defensive. That's being disgusted in your defeatism,

I literally do not understand people who argue with repeatable success. I really do not. In my work life if I have an employee who expressed themselves this way, they'd just be fired. I just dont have time for people who are defeatists or who will talk as if with authority about something they honestly haven't even done.

I also don't like people who lie to make a point. I've shared accurate numbers and I have shared accurate success. I have not added to the facts at all here. The unit puts out a lot of wounds, and it is never usually where it can ever be assaulted. It can only be torrented (which is true of all units) and that, only if the weapons are in range to do it.

Then you argue as if the Devilfish is part of the unit instead of an additional unit taken with it. that devilfish puts out 8 STR 5 shots on its own, and is a great bulwark. It allows Pathfinders and even on occassion, damaged kroot units, to scooot where needed. But it is not required for the unit to do what I am suggesting. Stop adding its cost into the units cost analysis. Its not the same unit. Its a liers game to say it is. They dont live together and they dont die together.

Look GOOD FAITH discussion isn't happening here when people do these things. And that IS too bad. Because it isn't as if I have said that you are WRONG about the units you like. I agree that most of them are good. They just aren't the only option. And you wantthem to be seen that way here REAL BAD for some wierd sense of validation you really just dont need.

Its silly.

It's 622 for the two units, that's not a gross exaggeration from 650. Nor was it a lie, just a miscalculation. *

It's not repeatable. How many times do people have to point out how weak the unit is for its points value? You keep saying that they have a huge threat range, but there is no reason to be afraid of the unit. Unless you're dedicating 4 markers on the unit every turn, they just don't put out a lot of reliable wounds if you look at the actual math including saves. You give out the numbers you like an assumed BS5 for every unit you propose and then give the wounds. I repeatedly give out the expected saves which shows the unit just isn't that devastating for as expensive as they are.

There are also a decent amount of Ap5 weapons that ignore cover, not just torrents. Even just bolters and heavy bolters are good at putting lots of wounds on the unit. It's not "only torrent" weapons that are a threat.

I'm not even going to argue about the devilfish. It's an 80 point terrain that you're using to support the unit but somehow it doesn't factor to the units cost.

*I had to do the math again, and apparently I was right the first time.

7 pathfinders with emp and 3 rail rifles are 136.
All three drones are 58 points, making the unit 194 points per squad.
Throw in a devilfish with no upgrades it's now 274 per squad.
Two units of those are 548 points.
Darkstrider is another 100 on top of that for 648 points total.
2 points off is a gross exaggeration?

Jancoran. The problem with your anecdotal evidence and the reason that others are criticizing your set-up is that you always come into the Tau/Pathfinder threads and yell loudly about your unit and how great it is.

40k is a game of dice, thus statistics can be used to measure efficiency (of course this is not foolproof due to certain special rules or abilities that cannot be quantified). Your unit is horribly inefficient compared to other units in the book. I don't care that you use the unit and it works for you. Good players can sometimes make lackluster units and army lists work because they are better at the more intangible parts of the game. If you are going to recommend a unit to others, you've got to do better than tell us (in poorly summed up Battle Reports, no less) about your experiences. I want to see a side-by-side comparison of how Pathfinders with all of the bells and whistles you add, are a better choice than say HYMP Broadsides, Piranha squadrons, MSU flashlight squads, etc. Even in the role you use them for (seems to be outflanking harassment), large Kroot squads will generally be more efficient. They may not have quite as much versatility (though arguably they do, due to the availability of Krootox), but they are far cheaper, score and can be taken in larger squads.

As others have mentioned, over and over again, your Pathfinder units are extremely pricey for how fragile they are. I don't know how much 6th edition you've been playing, but in my own experiences players pack much higher volumes of anti-infantry firepower. I would NEVER invest heavy points into a platform as fragile as Pathfinders. Elite/expensive/small infantry squads are not nearly as good in 6th as they were in 5th. Barrage/torrent flamers and Tau players will all destroy these units with ease.

As a Tau player myself, I would LOVE to play against an opponent silly enough to allocate that many points to Pathfinders. With the EWO being as cheap as it is and the upgrade being available to a lot of models, it is very conceivable that this entire strategy will be useless vs. other Tau players. A single Riptide with SMS and EWO can cause an immediate morale check upon arriving from reserves.

You may very well have sustained success with the unit as is (though I too am skeptical of personal accounts that seem to good to be true), but you may also be a better player than most. This isn't a unit I would recommend to anyone new to the codex as it will require much more finesse than most of the other good options (and there are a ton).

Anyway, back on topic.

I've been playing Tau fairly extensively. The units i've been most impressed by and why:

Ethereal - Incredibly valuable force multiplication at a discount price. Giving up a VP isnt the worst if he is slain (and mine rarely dies), place him in a big squad and enjoy the incredible LD buffs.

Support Commander - I personally use the Puretide chip, which is every bit as amazing as it seems. I also take the Multi-spectrum so that I can easily wipe out 4+ saves (pretty useful due to increase in Fire Warriors/Dire Avengers and the ubiquitous Necron Warrior). Stick this badass with 3 Broadsides, a full smattering of Drones and some Target Locks. Make sure to bring some KY for your opponents.

Riptide - Low damage output for the cost, but in 6th durability is incredibly important. This guy will tank shots and often attract firepower from the rest of your army due to their reputation. The caveat is that they really need twin-linking or markerlights in order to live up to their potential. I like the HBC/SMS set up as well as the Ion/Fusion. I generally take one of each with some interceptor for outflanking Kroot, etc.

Kroot - They aren't amazing in a vacuum, but so far I prefer them over Fire Warriors. Per body, they are cheaper and due to increased numbers of shots they make better use of Markerlight/Psychic buffs.

Broadsides - I use the HYMP/SMS. I think the HRR isn't particularly good. Str.7 en masse will make short work of anything AV13 or lower. They shine due to their ability to threaten just about every army. Xenos quiver at the thought of facing 36+ SMS shots. With a support Commander they can easily take out 2-3 vehicles a turn. The dawn of the Eldar codex increases their usefulness as these squads will absolutely devastate Mechdar (I can take out about 3 Serpents a turn with a fully decked out Broadside squad, assuming average rolls).

Piranha - Cheap for the amount of firepower they can bring to bear. I prefer running them as potent anti-infantry platforms that can block movement.

Sky Ray - The only reason I don't take 3 squads of Broadsides. They make it much easier to ignore over-priced Skyfire upgrades on most of your suits. 1-2 Markerlight hits on a Flyer will easily allow a Broadside squad to take it down. Same with Riptides. Being able to alpha-strike MCs with the 6 missiles is always nice as well. I would generally recommend 1-2 of these as they are quite versatile and give you the ability to put your Markers on a more durable platform. They also mesh well with suits and Riptides as they saturate the targets your opponent will have to point his Str.8+ at.

Obviously there are other good units out there, but those are, IMO, the standouts of the codex. I think in a few months, once the codex has had time to settle, you'll see armies comprised of most of the above winning the big events. The Tau army that won Killadelphia (east coast GT, highly competitive attendees) was comprised of only: Kroot, Ethereals, Riptides, Skyrays and 8 Pathfinders.

Jancoran wrote:You can lie to people if you want to about the efficacy of these units. Andit is a lie. They have been a major factor in 24 out of 24 games. That is a statistic I will trust. You dont have to. Just dont lie and say it didn't happen.

Calling me a Liar is both piling criticism and an example of personal incredulity.

Your statistic of "have been a major factor in 24 out of 24 games" is a Texas sharpshooter.

Point is, your unit is not as powerful as you want it to be. Mixing WOF from 3 rail rifles and a few S5AP5 shots is not great. It's just that you're refusing to see that it isn't.

I seriously suggest you try a unit of pirhanas. Sure the models are expensive, all told, but 5 pirhanas is about 200 points without upgrades or Fusion Blasters - two of them are 400. If each of them has just 2 markerlights to work with, they can kill 8 3+ saves a turn. They're also a lot more resilient than your 5+ armour save, having AV11 otf and a jink save.

Jancoran wrote:Its not 650 points. So that is a lie or just a gross exxageration. Neither one is awesome.

You're... you're calling an estimate an exaggeration?

Didn't you "estimate" your unit was 181? Isn't that a gross understatement?

jancoran wrote:
Second, it works. So saying otherwise is...not...true. The ones hell bent on trying to prove otherwise are crusading, not I. I've said repeatedly to you that I dont think you have to use them to win. Thats not defensive. That's being disgusted in your defeatism,

You are crusading for a unit that can be shown using realistic statistics to be ineffective. I have shown you an alternative and am yet to see you adress it. Try running 2 or three units of 5 pirhanas with just burst cannons. 15 vehicles on the field is very annoying and causes a lot of distraction for your opponent.

jancoran wrote:
I literally do not understand people who argue with repeatable success. I really do not. In my work life if I have an employee who expressed themselves this way, they'd just be fired. I just dont have time for people who are defeatists or who will talk as if with authority about something they honestly haven't even done.

Repeated success is still an anecdote. Statistical success is all I care about, it's much more tangible than "this one guy killed 3 tanks and a terminator."

jancoran wrote:
I also don't like people who lie to make a point. I've shared accurate numbers and I have shared accurate success. I have not added to the facts at all here. The unit puts out a lot of wounds, and it is never usually where it can ever be assaulted. It can only be torrented (which is true of all units) and that, only if the weapons are in range to do it.

you see how you keep calling us liars? This is becoming a personal attack. You're not arguing, you're avoiding argument by attacking and criticising your opponents. Calling your statistics and reports into question is not being a liar, it's questioning your truthfulness.

jancoran wrote:
Then you argue as if the Devilfish is part of the unit instead of an additional unit taken with it. that devilfish puts out 8 STR 5 shots on its own, and is a great bulwark. It allows Pathfinders and even on occassion, damaged kroot units, to scooot where needed. But it is not required for the unit to do what I am suggesting. Stop adding its cost into the units cost analysis. Its not the same unit. Its a liers game to say it is. They dont live together and they dont die together.

Okay, so if we remove the incredibly overcosted devilfish from the equation, the one you covered in seeker missiles then relied upon for your example, what're we left with?

jancoran wrote:
Look GOOD FAITH discussion isn't happening here when people do these things. And that IS too bad. Because it isn't as if I have said that you are WRONG about the units you like. I agree that most of them are good. They just aren't the only option. And you wantthem to be seen that way here REAL BAD for some wierd sense of validation you really just dont need.

It's not that we see that these are the only options. We just can't fathom that pathfinders are a decent offensive option. If you refuse to accept that, that's your business. You are talking about a weak, non-scoring, overcosted unit with small arms fire. Pathfinders are like razorbacks. They get shiny options but they're best used stock standard.

jancoran wrote:
Its silly.

No, it's not silly.

I'll take this edit to note that Using Fallacies is not in and of itself what makes these arguments wrong. To simply say "that's fallacious" and disregard your argument would be a fallacy of its own. The fact that you use these fallacious arguments to make your point, however - your only point - I might add, is how your arguments come to be unsound because of their fallacious nature.

Scipio you are too good at naming fallacy for it to be healthy...

 LValx wrote:


Riptide - Low damage output for the cost, but in 6th durability is incredibly important. This guy will tank shots and often attract firepower from the rest of your army due to their reputation. The caveat is that they really need twin-linking or markerlights in order to live up to their potential. I like the HBC/SMS set up as well as the Ion/Fusion. I generally take one of each with some interceptor for outflanking Kroot, etc.

I really can't see the Riptide having low damage output. I never run the HBC since it seems almost like you're forced to nova charge just to get a decent amount of damage output. In my area I only see the IA getting any use and it's been racking up quite reputation, but we also see more deepstriking terminators in my area than most.

BoomWolf wrote:Scipio you are too good at naming fallacy for it to be healthy...

I do love me a good fallace(y)

Savageconvoy wrote:

 LValx wrote:


Riptide - Low damage output for the cost, but in 6th durability is incredibly important. This guy will tank shots and often attract firepower from the rest of your army due to their reputation. The caveat is that they really need twin-linking or markerlights in order to live up to their potential. I like the HBC/SMS set up as well as the Ion/Fusion. I generally take one of each with some interceptor for outflanking Kroot, etc.

I really can't see the Riptide having low damage output. I never run the HBC since it seems almost like you're forced to nova charge just to get a decent amount of damage output. In my area I only see the IA getting any use and it's been racking up quite reputation, but we also see more deepstriking terminators in my area than most.

I would regard the riptide as having a low damage output.
To think of the HBC in good terms, think of it as 3 Assault cannons with a range of 36" - that's what it is. (Assault cannon is 24" S6 AP4 Heavy 4, rending. This is 36" S6 AP4 Heavy 4*3 Rending with gets hot!) Make it BS6 and you have a 33% chance of hitting 11 times, and a 2.7% chance of getting hot!. You also rend almost two times. an HBC is best used against either flyers (where its S6 rending can take down flyers if you get lucky) or against medium infantry (sv3+ or worse) - 11 hits is 10 wounds is about 4.5 dead space marines. (much better than a pathfinder for resilience sake.)

I agree with the main point. The riptide is very durable, especially with a stimulant. It's only fear is combat, so if it lacks drones it should be taken with a VRT so as to avoid Close Combat.

I can't make myself run a kroot gunline. For the same reason I can't make myself take more than 1 riptide. It just feels wrong. I will admit that it is a valid strategy though.

I can't help but run multiples of units because I love redundancy. My 2k list is basically two 1k lists slapped together.

I've also felt that I'm forced to run a couple units of sniper kroot on my backfield because of the love of FMC and MC in my area. Having some sniper units can really some of the bite out of those. I do prefer them over Firewarriors, just because of their versatility for a wider range of threats.

Riptides can hurt but in a vacuum they atent as damaging per point as suits. But they are mobile and durable, which make up for generally lower damage.

dementedwombat wrote:I can't make myself run a kroot gunline. For the same reason I can't make myself take more than 1 riptide. It just feels wrong. I will admit that it is a valid strategy though.

I can't see more than 1 riptide being all that useful.
1 riptide makes your opponent make a choice. at 2k, they can pour half their firepower into it and probably kill it, or they can ignore it - giving it free reign - and just hope it doesn't do too much damage.

What's kroot gunline? 120 snipers?

I'd personally run 39 kroot snipers - 3 squads of 13, with an extra hound each. This way they can act as the sniper team, killing something like a wraithknight first turn, or they can deploy off-board and harry my opponent's flank as normal kroot/objective grabbers.

Something to consider?

Savageconvoy wrote:I can't help but run multiples of units because I love redundancy. My 2k list is basically two 1k lists slapped together.

I've also felt that I'm forced to run a couple units of sniper kroot on my backfield because of the love of FMC and MC in my area. Having some sniper units can really some of the bite out of those. I do prefer them over Firewarriors, just because of their versatility for a wider range of threats.

I maintain that Fire warriors are the best GI type infantry in the game. They have the most versatile small arms fire (Rifles) in the game which makes up for their complete lack of heavy/specialist weaponry.

That said, IF I weren't running teams of Eldar bikes as my objective pinchers, Kroot are a must.

LValx wrote:Riptides can hurt but in a vacuum they atent as damaging per point as suits. But they are mobile and durable, which make up for generally lower damage.

Exactly.

That said, IF I weren't running teams of Eldar bikes as my objective pinchers, Kroot are a must.

Speaking of which, It looks to me like a Farseer with at least 1 Jetbike squad is almost an auto-take now. Twin-linking 2 units per turn (Guide, Prescience) and adding a fast objective grabber with reasonable firepower for the cost for 160ish points is pretty awesome. If nothing else, it'll save you using a boatload of markerlights on your Riptides to avoid Gets Hot! rolls. I think I'll still take Kroot in large quantities, though. I really like forcing my opponent to choose whether to divert some of his forces to deal with the Kroot units or to keep heading towards me to take on the core of the army.

I've got a unit with 12 sniper kroot, 2 krootox, and a hound that i run for outflanking. I quite enjoy them. They killed a dreadnought last game by getting behind it and letting the Krootox go to work.

I can't explain why I don't like massed Kroot in my army. It's an effective tactic and completely viable, but when i think Tau troops I think, firewarirors with kroot for support. It's just a fluff/personal preference thing.

I'm not going to say it's the right thing to do, but it's one of those times where i live with a tactically less sound decision because it's my army and I like the way it looks.

Coyote81 brings a farseer and a small jetbike squad in most of his games. Twin-linking IA Riptides or Hammerheads really goes a long way.

I was actually going to start picking up Eldar to run with my Tau, but was planning on trying out a Spiritseer and Wraithguard. May end up going Farseer and jetbikes though.

My jetbike farseer and GJBs have been even more amazing with the new codex then the old. However I cannot for the life of me roll a decent set of powers. Keep ending up taking guide/prescience and my 3rd power has been death misson/execute. I'm going to start rolling on telepathy first. At least then a bad roll is still something useful.

MilkmanAl wrote:

That said, IF I weren't running teams of Eldar bikes as my objective pinchers, Kroot are a must.

Speaking of which, It looks to me like a Farseer with at least 1 Jetbike squad is almost an auto-take now. Twin-linking 2 units per turn (Guide, Prescience) and adding a fast objective grabber with reasonable firepower for the cost for 160ish points is pretty awesome. If nothing else, it'll save you using a boatload of markerlights on your Riptides to avoid Gets Hot! rolls. I think I'll still take Kroot in large quantities, though. I really like forcing my opponent to choose whether to divert some of his forces to deal with the Kroot units or to keep heading towards me to take on the core of the army.

A farseer on a jetbike is awesome.

He can:

- Deep strike
- Thrust move with battlesuits
- thrust move with a riptide
- has T4
- can do a little hurt in close combat

he also unlocks jetbike teams. I'm running two of 6, which is 204 points. My allies are a total of 319 points, yet constitute all my objective grabbers.

Are you sure he can deep strike?

I'm pretty sure Jetbikes have the Deep Strike special rule.

Just to chime in, my local meta is a lot GK and DA players, so presently my favourite units are outflanking Pathfinders with Rail rifles and Darkstrider and the Riptide with EWO and Ion accelerator.

When they come on the right side of the board, i have had a lot of success killing Paladins and Terminators. Though i do use a commander with six Markerlight drones to ensure i can up my BS and Strip cover if needed.

With the riptide, it can be quite fun Killing a whole unit of Terminators as soon as they deep strike on the board.

Aijec wrote:
BROADSIDES - The reason we played Tau originally. Damn those models were cool.

Now I am a little conflicted, Railguns and SMS are very different and we don't have an ASS option anymore so I really hate moving them. I think they are good light vehicle killers but those come a dime a dozen. Expensive for the effects. I position them out in the open to utilize their 2+ save early in the game.

Someone convince me that they are awesome. Please.

I really dislike HYMP's, 30 inches +heavy doesn't make for an effective weapon when the codex already has a ton of MP's avail.

The broadside is god's 4th gift to tau. Not only is the new broadside model one of the coolest looking models in the codex, but it's arguably one of the best options for anti-air in the game.

A broadside kitted with HYMP and velocity tracker will have a good chance to wreck any air unit. Give it a heavy rail rifle, and it's chances are equally good. Give them EWO, and stick a support Shas'o with MSS in the squad and they can blow air units out of the sky as they come in on the opponents turn. That's pretty strong.

Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised to see players starting to take broadsides as allies for reliable anti-air options and support.

In all honesty I can't stand the new Broadside model. It's more expensive than a Drednaught, about the same size as a drednaught, and on a drednaught base. But it's T4. I'm sorry, but that's just insane. Add to it that we have Heavy support Infantry units that can't fit on top of a bastion anymore (my area is starting to enforce the drednaught base for broadsides) while Oblits and the like can still stack up there. They really should have given it a built in invul or T5 to atleast attempt to justify the huge model.

However I still think that Broadsides are a decent choice. My preference will always be for the HRR for the +2 on the damage chart. I know people love the HYMP, but due to it's shorter range and limited mobility I just can't justify it.

I used the FW broadsides that always came on the giant base, so no real change there for me.

Broadsides I am conflicted on though. Three HRR sides do have better range and better chance of exploding higher AV targets, but three HYMP can glance almost everything they can damage to death.

I'll have to proxy my FW team as the HYMP a couple more games before I'm sold one way or the other.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
In all honesty I can't stand the new Broadside model. It's more expensive than a Drednaught, about the same size as a drednaught, and on a drednaught base. But it's T4. I'm sorry, but that's just insane. Add to it that we have Heavy support Infantry units that can't fit on top of a bastion anymore (my area is starting to enforce the drednaught base for broadsides) while Oblits and the like can still stack up there. They really should have given it a built in invul or T5 to atleast attempt to justify the huge model.

However I still think that Broadsides are a decent choice. My preference will always be for the HRR for the +2 on the damage chart. I know people love the HYMP, but due to it's shorter range and limited mobility I just can't justify it.

I do not have the new model as of yet, but i did not realize it's size has increased that much. That's kind of disheartening. It seems GW still lacks foresight on a lot of their processes. Hopefully they'll address those concerns, but i've never heard of them FAQing stats.

I think the load outs will probably depend on the type of armies you go up against. If it's a heavy flyer list, i'll probably take HYMP so that i can just glance to death any air unit that pops out.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I used the FW broadsides that always came on the giant base, so no real change there for me.

Broadsides I am conflicted on though. Three HRR sides do have better range and better chance of exploding higher AV targets, but three HYMP can glance almost everything they can damage to death.

I'll have to proxy my FW team as the HYMP a couple more games before I'm sold one way or the other.

It seems that they put the two weapon option choices in very niche places. The HRR is probably best suited for reliably taking out light vehicles and mid armor. I don't know if i'd attempt a shot at a AV 13/14 tank with a broadside unit unless i had no other choice.

The HYMP seems to be focused on mobs and light vehicles. When paired with SMS, that's a lot of fire power on an infantry unit, or AV10/11 vehicle/biker group. On top of that, both weapon systems are twin linked, and the broadside have supporting fire special rule. That's pretty scary for a CC happy army to deal with.

Edit: I would say the HYMP broadsides would be a potent close quarters support option for FWs, and FWs on the move. In fact, i wonder how effective it would be on a mobile FW, broadside, ethereal with zephyr buffs. I'm not sure, but would a broadside be able to move and fire snap shots with the zephyr buff?

Edit 2: The answer to my own question is on pg12 of the BRB. Zephyr allow the broadsides to run and shoot snap shots.

I can see some interesting options for army tactics with that.

range of 36+6+d6" on a high yield missile pod... pretty good (and they're twin linked so markerlights are even more effective at reducing the penalty), of course then your broadsides are in front of your gunline.

You might have actually given me a reason to use the air power. Still haven't found a use for making my Tau stubborn though.

 dementedwombat wrote:
range of 36+6+d6" on a high yield missile pod... pretty good (and they're twin linked so markerlights are even more effective at reducing the penalty), of course then your broadsides are in front of your gunline.

You might have actually given me a reason to use the air power. Still haven't found a use for making my Tau stubborn though.

Who says you have to move forward? Sometimes the best option is to fall back. Also, couldn't your broadsides fire over the FW? Since the model is larger, you could argue that they fire over the FW at no penalty. Or do i have that wrong?

Yea, it seems stubborn was just kind of thrown in there because the last codex, IIRC, had it as a passive buff to all. Again, GW and their process seems a bit weird.

"Tau attribute no dishonor to prudent retreat and perceive last stands as incompetent defeats or the last refuge of an unimaginative Commander." Pg23.

Edit: With Zephyr in mind, i wonder if a good deployment strategy would be to place your units as close to the top of the deployment zone as possible with running back and using zephyr as a strategy when the enemy gets too close.

I still need to get my head around the fact that people can fire heavy weapons after moving in this edition (I don't play nearly enough games). And with markerlights it's actually a valid tactic for us.

The one use of stubborn I can see is making sure the enemy breaks your unit in close combat on his turn, so you can shoot at him. But anything that charges into combat with Tau is either going to tarpit for the rest of the game (guardsmen vs tau epic fight to the finish) or slaughter them all instantly anyway.

What about deathrains?

A crisis suit with two missile pods is cheaper than a broadside with hymp. You lose twin linked and the 2+ save but gain the jetpack move and the power to move and shoot.

Since most people give the sides a commander with puretide chip, just give him a cnc node and they are twinlinked again. And to top it off you can give them skyfire and interceptor. No longer one or the other.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
What about deathrains?

A crisis suit with two missile pods is cheaper than a broadside with hymp. You lose twin linked and the 2+ save but gain the jetpack move and the power to move and shoot.

Since most people give the sides a commander with puretide chip, just give him a cnc node and they are twinlinked again. And to top it off you can give them skyfire and interceptor. No longer one or the other.

I use my crisis suits for deep striking weight of fire to clear nasty stuff off objectives. Plasma/burst cannon with 2 gun drones. And my commander is designated marker drone herder to feed 5 markerlight hits to my riptide every turn.

Could work, but I feel like there's better things to use your crisis suits for (like fusion blasters to get rid of vehicles).

 dementedwombat wrote:
I still need to get my head around the fact that people can fire heavy weapons after moving in this edition (I don't play nearly enough games). And with markerlights it's actually a valid tactic for us.

The one use of stubborn I can see is making sure the enemy breaks your unit in close combat on his turn, so you can shoot at him. But anything that charges into combat with Tau is either going to tarpit for the rest of the game (guardsmen vs tau epic fight to the finish) or slaughter them all instantly anyway.

Well what makes Zephyr attractive is that it allows snap shots after running. Not just normal movement. Of course, you can do normal movement and snap shots with heavy weapons, and yea it is kind of weird to think about.

According to the BRB pg 43, stubborn only removes morale and pinning negative modifiers. So if you're trying to purposefully break that unit, you wouldn't want to use it. Besides, that would mean you'd be anticipating a bad shooting round / charge and forgoing your other options. (more dakka with storm, or running away with Zephyr.) Seems kind of defeatist if you ask me.

Honestly, stubborn is out of place and should be removed. I guess you'd use it against armies that have that kind of negative modifier, but i do not know of any that do.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
What about deathrains?

A crisis suit with two missile pods is cheaper than a broadside with hymp. You lose twin linked and the 2+ save but gain the jetpack move and the power to move and shoot.

Since most people give the sides a commander with puretide chip, just give him a cnc node and they are twinlinked again. And to top it off you can give them skyfire and interceptor. No longer one or the other.

It would depend on what you're looking to do. I just did a quick kit on a XV8 team of 2 with 2 non-twin linked MP + VT, a XV8 team of 3 with 2 non-twin linked MP +VT, and a broadside team of two with HYMP, SMS, and VT and two shield drones (i always give them shield drones.)

The XV8 team of two costs 144pts, with 8 non TL shots of S7 AP4 at 36ins.

The XV8 team of three costs 216pts, with 12 non TL shots of S7 AP 4 at 36ins

The Broadside team of 2 + two shield drones costs 194 points with 8 shots TL of S7 AP 4 at 36ins and 8 TL shots of S5 AP5 at 30in. (Without drones it's 170pts)

I would argue that the only thing the crisis team of two offers is increase mobility and a budget broadside option against air if you're hurting for points. That may be an option to run for lower point games, maybe. I don't know if people bring flyers on low point games or not.

As for potential fire power and killing for both air and ground units, the broadside team of two, for 50 points more (26 points more if you don't get drones for the sides) has more survivability (two shield drones and 2+ armor / or just 2+ armor), and more dakka than the team of two could ever hope to put out.

I totally forgot about the puretide chip and tank hunter. Tank hunter and MSS would be amazing support commander on a broadside team. Although, i don't know if CNC will allow another re-roll after the TL roll since they are already twin-linked. Does the effect stack?

Why would you put skyfire and interceptor on the commander? As far as i know, those two SR do not confer to a unit, but rather specifically to the model's weapons, according to the BRB. As for the broadsides, the Tau codex section of Heavy Weapons- Broadsides (pg 103) states they only get one support system. So it's one or the other.

According to how VT and EWO work, the best option is two have both on a suit. The reason being is that VT allows you to shoot at air units at full BS. EWO allows you to shoot at anything coming in from reserves after they move and before the enemy unit's shooting phase, but with a catch. If you do not have VT, you fire at a BS of 1 with EWO on a flyer, and if you decide to fire with EWO, you CAN NOT fire those weapons on your next shooting phase.

I am really enjoying the Tau codex, I have quite a lot of models and therefore I can cover most builds....

I like the fact that even the stuff that has been written off as appalling on release can still find its way into my list.

I use the Sun Shark bomber and think in isolation it is not great, however, give it a D-Pod and its pretty survivable and the drones are great as well. I bombed a few marines on Sunday, took a hull point from a contemptor with seekers and ruined a Thunderfire Cannon with it, my drones detached and poured down fire and doubled out my opponents master of the forge - he never saw it coming lol

I just recommend new players spend some time just playing games with the dex like I did in the beginning, I threw stuff down on the table that worked, I 100% used stuff that didn't work but I feel I am building a nice balanced 1850 list thats is fun to play against but still kicks out some serious damage. Disruption pods on Devilfish are awesome, also Longstrike is pure win.

I hated the Chaos Marine codex with a passion and these boys have been put away for now, however I am really enjoying Eldar and Tau and I cant wait for some more books......

edit: gosh im blind today

redacted

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
What about deathrains?

A crisis suit with two missile pods is cheaper than a broadside with hymp. You lose twin linked and the 2+ save but gain the jetpack move and the power to move and shoot.

Since most people give the sides a commander with puretide chip, just give him a cnc node and they are twinlinked again. And to top it off you can give them skyfire and interceptor. No longer one or the other.

I use my crisis suits for deep striking weight of fire to clear nasty stuff off objectives. Plasma/burst cannon with 2 gun drones. And my commander is designated marker drone herder to feed 5 markerlight hits to my riptide every turn.

Could work, but I feel like there's better things to use your crisis suits for (like fusion blasters to get rid of vehicles).

I made a nasty commander crisis team for my 1500pt list.

Commander has ATS, CIB, Neuroweb, Onagar, Puretide, and two shield drones.
He joins a XV8 team of 2 with plasma and TL FB and two shield drones.

Their objective is to deep strike into either a tank formation and wreck it with FB, and then assault it with the onagar to fist it's ass apart with the str10 ap 1 that also gives it tank hunter. The other objective is to deepstrike to save my pathfinders utilizing the Kauyon philosophy. The two pathfinder teams both have homing beacons making my deepstrike not scatter.

I don't really agree with the marker commander. 5 markerlight drones is expensive at 70pts (a team of 6 pathfinders is 66pts). Granted, the markerlight drones will be hitting on 2s, which pretty much guarantee all the marks will hit. The price as well as the large unit the commander becomes with the drones kills his mobility though, and your commander quickly loses slots. (I assume you'd want target lock and of course drone controller but if he's a support commander, maybe not target lock.) Ultimately, it seems like it might be a waste of a good commander if he's regulated to just marker duty, when you can do it for less, and with about half as good results.

Like wise, the 6 pathfinders will hit on 4s with their markerlights, so you'll probably average 2-3 markerlights from them, maybe, probably 1-3.

I wanted to look up what an IC could do in terms of joining units, or multiple units. I was curious if you could join the 5 marker drone squad, and then join another unit, but i don't think it's allowed. The BRB doesn't have anything on joining multiple units under the IC description.

Then again, the tau rule book (pg 33) says that drones by themselves, "are non-scoring, non-denial units". What kind of impact would that have on a commander joining that squad, and another one(say broadsides or FW), if any?

Commander:

drone controller
target lock
early warning override
fusion blaster
2x marker drone
Edit: add the neuroweb. it's 2 points so there's no reason not to.

joins the unit: 4x marker drone.

6 markerlights with BS 5 is pretty reliable in its ability to feed my riptide enough lights to make it BS 6 every turn, and can usually manage ignore cover on top of that.

If I ever end up getting the Forgeworld tau book I'll give my commader the special suit with a built in markerlight and target lock, so I could get a BS 5 interceptor markerlight if I really wanted it.

I messed up. I forgot only the commander has 4 hard points. My idea won't work

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I messed up. I forgot only the commander has 4 hard points. My idea won't work

Signature systems on a Commander or Bodyguard Shas'vre don't take up hard points (which is why the Farsight bomb build works). So you can actually stick some more stuff on there

 manrogue wrote:
Just to chime in, my local meta is a lot GK and DA players, so presently my favourite units are outflanking Pathfinders with Rail rifles and Darkstrider and the Riptide with EWO and Ion accelerator.

When they come on the right side of the board, i have had a lot of success killing Paladins and Terminators. Though i do use a commander with six Markerlight drones to ensure i can up my BS and Strip cover if needed.

With the riptide, it can be quite fun Killing a whole unit of Terminators as soon as they deep strike on the board.

Precisely.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Commander:

drone controller
target lock
early warning override
fusion blaster
2x marker drone
Edit: add the neuroweb. it's 2 points so there's no reason not to.

joins the unit: 4x marker drone.

6 markerlights with BS 5 is pretty reliable in its ability to feed my riptide enough lights to make it BS 6 every turn, and can usually manage ignore cover on top of that.

If I ever end up getting the Forgeworld tau book I'll give my commander the special suit with a built in markerlight and target lock, so I could get a BS 5 interceptor markerlight if I really wanted it.

BS 6 feels like overkill a little bit. I found a chart that has the probability of what rolls you will get with two dice for the purpose of pie templates.

http://wizardofodds.com/games/images/craps/dicetotals.gif

K̶e̶e̶p̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶m̶i̶n̶d̶,̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶2̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶6̶ ̶c̶h̶a̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶c̶a̶t̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶d̶i̶e̶ ̶(̶i̶'̶m̶ ̶n̶o̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶h̶s̶ ̶s̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶2̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶6̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶m̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶b̶e̶ b̶s̶ ̶m̶a̶t̶h̶e̶m̶a̶t̶i̶c̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶s̶e̶.̶)̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶3̶ ̶m̶a̶r̶k̶e̶r̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶B̶S̶ ̶6̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶w̶a̶s̶t̶e̶d̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶i̶r̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶h̶i̶t̶.̶ ̶U̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶,̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶r̶s̶e̶,̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶r̶e̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶H̶B̶C̶,̶ ̶w̶h̶i̶c̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶'̶d̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶B̶S̶5̶

Soooooo, I sat here and tried to mathhammer out the probabilities of the BS6 on pie being not wasted and i think it would be worth it. Apparently, it scatters 44% of the time on a 6, 7 or 8, so a BS 6 would greatly increase your chances of a direct hit with pie .Again, i'm no good at the maths. But even on the possibility of a "wasted three markerlights", getting that pie plate where you want and when you need it, is damn important. IA S8 AP2 normal charge, ID MEq with no cover save (if you can manage it). That's damn scary now that i think about it.

Hmm, your commander seems to have gear for two different roles. Close shooting combat, and support. Which can be dangerous because you'll have to get close for that 1 shot, and you might not be able to hide afterwards. That commander's unit foot print is about as big as a three man XV8 crisis team that is base to base. That makes them vulnerable to pies.

To that end, I'd suggest switching out the FB for something else. Maybe a MP so you stay in sync with the 36in range of the markerlights. That way, your EWO can also be used as the range has now effectively doubled with the MP, and you can stay for enough away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

 manrogue wrote:
Just to chime in, my local meta is a lot GK and DA players, so presently my favourite units are outflanking Pathfinders with Rail rifles and Darkstrider and the Riptide with EWO and Ion accelerator.

When they come on the right side of the board, i have had a lot of success killing Paladins and Terminators. Though i do use a commander with six Markerlight drones to ensure i can up my BS and Strip cover if needed.

With the riptide, it can be quite fun Killing a whole unit of Terminators as soon as they deep strike on the board.

Precisely.

Darkstrider has a special rule: Fight on Foot Pg 63. He can only join a FW or pathfinder squad, so he will be unable to outflank the riptide. However, a single riptide(no drones) counts as an IC as per the RAW on IC. So, you could place him in the pathfinder squad and outflank him there. That's nasty. Give him a EWO and Target lock and that can be sick. Although he wouldn't benefit from markerlights from that squad because they are not networked. :C

Then again, his range is already really far with his main weapons, but you'd be able to put your secondary system to use at least.

Or you could just, you know, deep strike him. He is jet pack MC.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 manrogue wrote:
Just to chime in, my local meta is a lot GK and DA players, so presently my favourite units are outflanking Pathfinders with Rail rifles and Darkstrider and the Riptide with EWO and Ion accelerator.

When they come on the right side of the board, i have had a lot of success killing Paladins and Terminators. Though i do use a commander with six Markerlight drones to ensure i can up my BS and Strip cover if needed.

With the riptide, it can be quite fun Killing a whole unit of Terminators as soon as they deep strike on the board.

Precisely.

Darkstrider has a special rule: Fight on Foot Pg 63. He can only join a FW or pathfinder squad, so he will be unable to outflank the riptide. However, a single riptide(no drones) counts as an IC as per the RAW on IC. So, you could place him in the pathfinder squad and outflank him there. That's nasty. Give him a EWO and Target lock and that can be sick. Although he wouldn't benefit from markerlights from that squad because they are not networked. :C

Then again, his range is already really far with his main weapons, but you'd be able to put your secondary system to use at least.

Or you could just, you know, deep strike him. He is jet pack MC.

He meant Darkstrider outflanks with the Pathfinders, not with the Riptide. The Riptide is not an independent character and so cannot join other units.

A Riptide should be on the board turn 1. It's not bullet sponging if it's in reserve and if the opponents reserves come on before it arrives then no nice Interceptor shots. So even if it could outflank in some way I see no reason to. It has the range to threaten from turn one so why risk a deepstrike?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:



Darkstrider has a special rule: Fight on Foot Pg 63. He can only join a FW or pathfinder squad, so he will be unable to outflank the riptide. However, a single riptide(no drones) counts as an IC as per the RAW on IC. So, you could place him in the pathfinder squad and outflank him there. That's nasty. Give him a EWO and Target lock and that can be sick. Although he wouldn't benefit from markerlights from that squad because they are not networked. :C

Then again, his range is already really far with his main weapons, but you'd be able to put your secondary system to use at least.

Or you could just, you know, deep strike him. He is jet pack MC.

He meant Darkstrider outflanks with the Pathfinders, not with the Riptide. The Riptide is not an independent character and so cannot join other units.

A Riptide should be on the board turn 1. It's not bullet sponging if it's in reserve and if the opponents reserves come on before it arrives then no nice Interceptor shots. So even if it could outflank in some way I see no reason to. It has the range to threaten from turn one so why risk a deepstrike?

The point in bringing Darkstrider is the unit he shoots at is considered -1T for rolling to wound and Instant Death, so S6 railrifles can insta-kill T4 models. Only problem will always be price with the unit. Even a min squad with rail rifles is 89 points, with Darkstrider another 100. If you can get an opponent to overlook them or even outflank them into a safe area, it can work.

I take the fusion blaster for one reason and one reason only. My most common opponent runs the doom of malan`tai in a spore. Evey single model in my army that has the opportunity to take both interceptor and strength 8 weapons does so.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I messed up. I forgot only the commander has 4 hard points. My idea won't work

Signature systems on a Commander or Bodyguard Shas'vre don't take up hard points (which is why the Farsight bomb build works). So you can actually stick some more stuff on there

Yeah but my whole selling point was the deathrains were cheaper and could take EWO and VT on the same build.

But to be honest if that was the case, someone would have noticed by now and there would probably be no discussion on HYMP.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The point in bringing Darkstrider is the unit he shoots at is considered -1T for rolling to wound and Instant Death, so S6 railrifles can insta-kill T4 models. Only problem will always be price with the unit. Even a min squad with rail rifles is 89 points, with Darkstrider another 100. If you can get an opponent to overlook them or even outflank them into a safe area, it can work.

Eh, i'm not convinced. 189pts pts for 3 BS 3 sniper shots and you lose markerlights. On top of that, pathfinders are squishy with their 5+ armor saves. So, sure you might be able to ID 3 marines MAX, but that doesn't really seem worth it for the point cost and shooting skill of these guys.. For 3 points less, i can grab a riptide with just an IA and do the exact same thing the pathfinders are doing, except have a chance to wipe out an entire squad...if i pass the Gets Hot! roll....and get a good scatter....and they fail their cover. Riptide is more durable as well.

Most players also don't have their MEq hanging out in the open. They like to put them in metal boxes, or in cover, and if i'm not mistaken, you can still take a cover saves against sniper shots. Might be useful for a small game, MAYBE, but that's still kind of pricey IMO. It's also a waste of Darkstrider. IMO, if you're going to field him, make him as trolltastic as possible. Stick him in a pathfinder group, and give them the grav-inhibtor drone and fill up your tear cup with the rage of your foe as he tries unsuccessfully to shoot and charge your squad.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dementedwombat wrote:
I take the fusion blaster for one reason and one reason only. My most common opponent runs the doom of malan`tai in a spore. Evey single model in my army that has the opportunity to take both interceptor and strength 8 weapons does so.

Oh i see. Well then yea, i see why you put that. I guess that's as good a reason as any. He's very scary.

HEY, weren't we suppose to get some kind of warp resistance special rule? >:| What happened with that? lol

You can also roll with ion rifles and ID toughness 5. It's probably best in a less competitive meta where your opponent doesn't expect it though (i.e. doesn't know every capability of your army as well as he knows his own).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

HEY, weren't we suppose to get some kind of warp resistance special rule? >:| What happened with that? lol

I agree 100%. Tau minds don't even register in the warp. I feel like any kind of power that doesn't directly influence the material world would just "slide off" a Tau. I was at least hoping for some way to get a bonus on deny the witch. Instead we're the most vulnerable army in the entire game to powers.

Oh well, you can't have everything. I guess that's why you take the bloody cookie cutter eldar allies like everyone else.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I messed up. I forgot only the commander has 4 hard points. My idea won't work

Signature systems on a Commander or Bodyguard Shas'vre don't take up hard points (which is why the Farsight bomb build works). So you can actually stick some more stuff on there

Yeah but my whole selling point was the deathrains were cheaper and could take EWO and VT on the same build.

But to be honest if that was the case, someone would have noticed by now and there would probably be no discussion on HYMP.

That just seems like a lot of wasted dakka potential to handle one issue that you can neutralize next turn (probably!) with HYMP/HRR broadsides with VT. The deathrains are too specialized. Once the flyer threat is removed. (if you get good rolls) they're now just 4 shot TL MPs. :\ I don't think 36/26 points saved on not getting broadsides is worth it to have a chance to maybe knock out a flyer as soon as it comes in.

Then again, i don't have much experience against flyers so i don't know how scary turn 1 flyer shooting can be.

Broadsides don't actually need skyfire to shoot down fliers. Twin linked means that with a full squad of 3 missile broadsides you will get 3-4 hits even needing 6s. 3 strength 7 hits is still very nasty against most fliers.

I don't like the idea and it seems like a bloody waste, but 20 points per velocity tracker makes you wonder just how much you need them.

 dementedwombat wrote:
You can also roll with ion rifles and ID toughness 5. It's probably best in a less competitive meta where your opponent doesn't expect it though (i.e. doesn't know every capability of your army as well as he knows his own).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

HEY, weren't we suppose to get some kind of warp resistance special rule? >:| What happened with that? lol

I agree 100%. Tau minds don't even register in the warp. I feel like any kind of power that doesn't directly influence the material world would just "slide off" a Tau. I was at least hoping for some way to get a bonus on deny the witch. Instead we're the most vulnerable army in the entire game to powers.

Oh well, you can't have everything. I guess that's why you take the bloody cookie cutter eldar allies like everyone else.

Forgot about Ion rifles, but they'll still probably have a cover save, and when you add ion rifles, rail rifles, and Darkstrider the cost goes up to 252. Still...you add in that grav-inhibitor drone, make it 267 and you'll be one slippery unit. Also, i dislike things that can potentially blow up. Overcharging 3 ion rifles might be risky. If they blow up, 5+ armor save, maybe 4+ cover save? is going to suuuuuuccccckkkk.

Yea, i remember reading a thread focused on "Rumored Tau rules" and What rules do YOU want to see in the Tau codex, and one poster suggested a rule called "The Warp? What's That?" - All Tau units (except kroot allies, vespid,) get a 5+ or 6+ save against warp powers. TBH, i just really liked the name of the rule. It fits with the fluff and would be nice for the army. Not too strong, but nice to have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Broadsides don't actually need skyfire to shoot down fliers. Twin linked means that with a full squad of 3 missile broadsides you will get 3-4 hits even needing 6s. 3 strength 7 hits is still very nasty against most fliers.

I don't like the idea and it seems like a bloody waste, but 20 points per velocity tracker makes you wonder just how much you need them.

How does TL work on flyers exactly. Do you re-roll 1's and 2's only, or everything that wasn't a 6, since technically it's a "miss"?

Personally, i like predictability in my army. That's why i lean towards VT, and not just EWO or something else for the broadsides against air. It's why i don't really care for weapons that Get Hot! I like riptide's nova charge option but i like to put a Stim on him for a little extra security. Maybe i should take more chances, but i like to be a cautious commander.

Edit: I hope my multiple edits are not sending you guys e-mail messages or something every time i update.. I keep forgetting to add things or i see typos and i have to fix them. <_<

 dementedwombat wrote:
Broadsides don't actually need skyfire to shoot down fliers. Twin linked means that with a full squad of 3 missile broadsides you will get 3-4 hits even needing 6s. 3 strength 7 hits is still very nasty against most fliers.

I don't like the idea and it seems like a bloody waste, but 20 points per velocity tracker makes you wonder just how much you need them.

Yeah, is 20 points worth it? On Railsides I think yes, because you don't have the number of shots to negate the difficulty of hitting. With Missilesides, it's debatable. Also skyfire is a one trick pony, it only works on fliers. Interceptor, on the other hand, works against all reserves and so is more widely applicable. Once those fliers are dead that 20 point upgrade is useless whilst the EWO will continue to be effective as long as the opponent has units in reserve either through dealing damage or creating zones they don't want to bring their reserves onto for fear of the amount of fire they'll have to weather.

'Course sticking Interceptor on everything can end badly when another Tau player trolls you with a Mech list where all their vehicles have Decoy Launchers. "What's that? I can't hear you over the sound of my 4+ Invulnerable save against your Missilesides!"

I don't see Skyfire being a one trick pony as a bad thing.

Let's say you have a squad of three sides with VT. You have about 250 points of broadsides on the board. If they drop a 100 point flier in one turn of shooting, they've paid off the Velocity trackers and about half a broadside.

If you have to deal with a lot of fliers, it's not that bad. There's a reason you hear people talking about taking Tau Allies for Skyfire. We get it good and fairly cheap.

If you never see fliers locally, where do you play and what time?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
Broadsides don't actually need skyfire to shoot down fliers. Twin linked means that with a full squad of 3 missile broadsides you will get 3-4 hits even needing 6s. 3 strength 7 hits is still very nasty against most fliers.

I don't like the idea and it seems like a bloody waste, but 20 points per velocity tracker makes you wonder just how much you need them.

Yeah, is 20 points worth it? On Railsides I think yes, because you don't have the number of shots to negate the difficulty of hitting. With Missilesides, it's debatable. Also skyfire is a one trick pony, it only works on fliers. Interceptor, on the other hand, works against all reserves and so is more widely applicable. Once those fliers are dead that 20 point upgrade is useless whilst the EWO will continue to be effective as long as the opponent has units in reserve either through dealing damage or creating zones they don't want to bring their reserves onto for fear of the amount of fire they'll have to weather.

'Course sticking Interceptor on everything can end badly when another Tau player trolls you with a Mech list where all their vehicles have Decoy Launchers. "What's that? I can't hear you over the sound of my 4+ Invulnerable save against your Missilesides!"

I guess it just depends on who you play against. For a tournament, i don't think i'd leave home without reliable anti-air options. Like i said, personally, i don't like to deal with chances. I like guarantees. Fliers are pretty potent, and i agree missilesides could dakka them enough to take them out without VT, but i'd rather them be gone for sure.

Also, keep in mind that the EWO is a double edge sword. You get to fire at deep striked units after their movement phase, but you can not fire that weapon on your shooting phase next turn. It's the same amount of fire power for that round, just at different times. Which, yes, could make or break the deployment strength of that freshly bloodied unit, but that unit can only shoot after deep strike anyway. No charging allowed. For fliers, i guess knocking it out of the sky before it can do anything is nice, but again, not a guarantee without VT, and you forgo the next normal round of shooting with that model's weapon.

In the case of our follow Commander, demenetedwombat, he has an opponent that drops a mean deathstar on him that HAS to die ASAP. (My friend has that unit....shudder.) So, i guess EWO is as situational as VT is, but cheaper by 15pts.

Edit: As i understand it, the chaos, or demons have a flier called the helldrake or whatever and it's apparently really strong. I'd want that thing dead with well placed shots, and would be willing to pay 20pts and wait next turn to knock it down.

Helldrake is 12/12/10 3 HP with a 5++ invuln and the ability to regenerate hull points like It Will Not Die.

I never want to see them across the table from me, but if I do then i will be packing sky rays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And maybe a Barracuda. Those things are really nasty air superiority, as long as they don't just vector strike it to death.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Helldrake is 12/12/10 3 HP with a 5++ invuln and the ability to regenerate hull points like It Will Not Die.

I never want to see them across the table from me, but if I do then i will be packing sky rays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And maybe a Barracuda. Those things are really nasty air superiority, as long as they don't just vector strike it to death.

This is the exact reason why I want ewo on my units. With tank hunter I stand a chance of getting a pen to stick. And with any luck actually stop that beast from destroying a whole unit that turn. If all I give up is shifting my shooting phase to a different part of the turn. I feel its well worth it.

I've been playing around with a buffing Cmdr and a Riptide. Cmdr runs CnC, MSS, IA, PT, and a shield. I stick him with a EWO and VT Riptide and have fun. I ignore cover and get to re roll almost everything. Plus it is a T6, 9W unit with 2+/4++ and I can get cover but putting the Cmdr out of LoS or in terrain. It's expensive, but I can reliably drop S8 pie plates every turn. I can reroll the gets hot or reroll the scatter dice. My pathfinders are free to buff the rest of my army now.

Flyers don't get a Jinx save and I have tank hunter against them. Bikes don't like it because I ignore their armour and cover save.

optimusprime14 wrote:
I've been playing around with a buffing Cmdr and a Riptide. Cmdr runs CnC, MSS, IA, PT, and a shield. I stick him with a EWO and VT Riptide and have fun. I ignore cover and get to re roll almost everything. Plus it is a T6, 9W unit with 2+/4++ and I can get cover but putting the Cmdr out of LoS or in terrain. It's expensive, but I can reliably drop S8 pie plates every turn. I can reroll the gets hot or reroll the scatter dice. My pathfinders are free to buff the rest of my army now.

Flyers don't get a Jinx save and I have tank hunter against them. Bikes don't like it because I ignore their armour and cover save.

All for a low price of 370pts.....

I'll never agree to give my commander MSS and C&C. Seems like a waste of our only Natural BS5 platform. And really expensive base price too just to carry around support gear. The Riptide does well enough with Some markerlights and extra BS and ignore covers saves from them. if you really want rerolls, get two sets of them from a 100pt farseer.

Coyote81 wrote:

optimusprime14 wrote:
I've been playing around with a buffing Cmdr and a Riptide. Cmdr runs CnC, MSS, IA, PT, and a shield. I stick him with a EWO and VT Riptide and have fun. I ignore cover and get to re roll almost everything. Plus it is a T6, 9W unit with 2+/4++ and I can get cover but putting the Cmdr out of LoS or in terrain. It's expensive, but I can reliably drop S8 pie plates every turn. I can reroll the gets hot or reroll the scatter dice. My pathfinders are free to buff the rest of my army now.

Flyers don't get a Jinx save and I have tank hunter against them. Bikes don't like it because I ignore their armour and cover save.

All for a low price of 370pts.....

I'll never agree to give my commander MSS and C&C. Seems like a waste of our only Natural BS5 platform. And really expensive base price too just to carry around support gear. The Riptide does well enough with Some markerlights and extra BS and ignore covers saves from them. if you really want rerolls, get two sets of them from a 100pt farseer.

If you're worried about a wasted BS5, give the commander marker drones with target lock and drone controller. I think the Support' O could be a valid option for specific army set ups. I might tinker around with a list that will accomplish just that for today since i have nothing else to do. (Isn't being sick great? )

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

optimusprime14 wrote:
I've been playing around with a buffing Cmdr and a Riptide. Cmdr runs CnC, MSS, IA, PT, and a shield. I stick him with a EWO and VT Riptide and have fun. I ignore cover and get to re roll almost everything. Plus it is a T6, 9W unit with 2+/4++ and I can get cover but putting the Cmdr out of LoS or in terrain. It's expensive, but I can reliably drop S8 pie plates every turn. I can reroll the gets hot or reroll the scatter dice. My pathfinders are free to buff the rest of my army now.

Flyers don't get a Jinx save and I have tank hunter against them. Bikes don't like it because I ignore their armour and cover save.

All for a low price of 370pts.....

I'll never agree to give my commander MSS and C&C. Seems like a waste of our only Natural BS5 platform. And really expensive base price too just to carry around support gear. The Riptide does well enough with Some markerlights and extra BS and ignore covers saves from them. if you really want rerolls, get two sets of them from a 100pt farseer.

If you're worried about a wasted BS5, give the commander marker drones with target lock and drone controller. I think the Support' O could be a valid option for specific army set ups. I might tinker around with a list that will accomplish just that for today since i have nothing else to do. (Isn't being sick great? )

Somewhere on ATT, I remember reading the Support'O is called the Raven. I wish I could find what thread that was in, but that's just a cool name.

Anyways, I've been looking at using one with three or four Marker Drones, (one or two from joined crisis squad, two with commander) and giving the Crisis team Target Locks. Since the Commander give them Reroll hits and Ignores cover, the Bladestorm squad (burst/Plasma) doesn't need any Markerlights. The drones however are now BS5 and reroll ones. Giving me almost without a doubt 3(or 4) markerlights to throw around on top of the two 8 man Pathfinder squads I'm using,

Coyote81 wrote:

optimusprime14 wrote:
I've been playing around with a buffing Cmdr and a Riptide. Cmdr runs CnC, MSS, IA, PT, and a shield. I stick him with a EWO and VT Riptide and have fun. I ignore cover and get to re roll almost everything. Plus it is a T6, 9W unit with 2+/4++ and I can get cover but putting the Cmdr out of LoS or in terrain. It's expensive, but I can reliably drop S8 pie plates every turn. I can reroll the gets hot or reroll the scatter dice. My pathfinders are free to buff the rest of my army now.

Flyers don't get a Jinx save and I have tank hunter against them. Bikes don't like it because I ignore their armour and cover save.

All for a low price of 370pts.....

I'll never agree to give my commander MSS and C&C. Seems like a waste of our only Natural BS5 platform. And really expensive base price too just to carry around support gear. The Riptide does well enough with Some markerlights and extra BS and ignore covers saves from them. if you really want rerolls, get two sets of them from a 100pt farseer.

Fair enough. It's also a large bullet magnet. At T6 and 9W it is very survivable. I agree it's a large chunk of points but it allows me to use my pathfinders on other units to make them BS5. As far as the natural BS5 goes, it can be used on marker drones or gun drones. He can also bounce out of the Riptide and go join some broadsides or another unit. I run my Tau with SM support and I can make up the shooting elsewhere. I find (and this is only personal experience) that it tends to attract so much fire power that the rest of the army is ignored.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

AnonAmbientLight wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

optimusprime14 wrote:
I've been playing around with a buffing Cmdr and a Riptide. Cmdr runs CnC, MSS, IA, PT, and a shield. I stick him with a EWO and VT Riptide and have fun. I ignore cover and get to re roll almost everything. Plus it is a T6, 9W unit with 2+/4++ and I can get cover but putting the Cmdr out of LoS or in terrain. It's expensive, but I can reliably drop S8 pie plates every turn. I can reroll the gets hot or reroll the scatter dice. My pathfinders are free to buff the rest of my army now.

Flyers don't get a Jinx save and I have tank hunter against them. Bikes don't like it because I ignore their armour and cover save.

All for a low price of 370pts.....

I'll never agree to give my commander MSS and C&C. Seems like a waste of our only Natural BS5 platform. And really expensive base price too just to carry around support gear. The Riptide does well enough with Some markerlights and extra BS and ignore covers saves from them. if you really want rerolls, get two sets of them from a 100pt farseer.

If you're worried about a wasted BS5, give the commander marker drones with target lock and drone controller. I think the Support' O could be a valid option for specific army set ups. I might tinker around with a list that will accomplish just that for today since i have nothing else to do. (Isn't being sick great? )

Somewhere on ATT, I remember reading the Support'O is called the Raven. I wish I could find what thread that was in, but that's just a cool name.

Anyways, I've been looking at using one with three or four Marker Drones, (one or two from joined crisis squad, two with commander) and giving the Crisis team Target Locks. Since the Commander give them Reroll hits and Ignores cover, the Bladestorm squad (burst/Plasma) doesn't need any Markerlights. The drones however are now BS5 and reroll ones. Giving me almost without a doubt 3(or 4) markerlights to throw around on top of the two 8 man Pathfinder squads I'm using,

Putting markerdrones in a crisis squad seems like a waste because of the low BS and asking for LD rolls when the markerlights take damage. (if they do). They only have a 4+ save. I say, pay the extra 2pts per markerdrone and make a fast attack squad of markerdrones and stick ....but that wouldn't work. Because then your commander has the drone squad already joined and he cant join other squads like the riptide. (nevermind)

Forgot about that detail. -.-

Anyway, Drone controller says drones in the unit use BS of the wearer. Would that confer to the crisis drones as well?

To answer my own question BRB pg 39, an "IC counts as part of the unit for all rules and purposes."

At that point, i wonder if a strategy would be to do like you're doing with the markerdrones on crisis suits, but put marker drones on multiple units. (crisis and broadsides) and have your commander join groups as needed. It's 2pts more than a PF, but you can have an interesting cascading effect, and force multiplier opportunity with multiple squads shooting both their guns and markerlights to buff the next squads markerdrones and shots.

That sounds interesting, at least on paper.

I'll have to play a few games to see if this works as well as I want it to, but It sounds much more concrete than yesterday's brilliant idea I had.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
I'll have to play a few games to see if this works as well as I want it to, but It sounds much more concrete than yesterday's brilliant idea I had.

Also could add an interesting dynamic to a Support'O / Raven that jumps from squad to squad to deal with threats as needed based on what your troops offer. Although i'd have to double check on rules relating to IC joining and leaving squads.

Sounds like a fun and interesting strategy though if it all pans out. Gives us another option other than shoot and scoot.

There's no such thing as a bad idea or a stupid idea on discussion forums. If they didn't exist then the forums wouldn't exist and conversations would not be driven towards new ideas.

IC's join squads at the end of ther movement phase if they are within 2" of the squad. They can only be a part of 1 squad at a time. They can leave durring the movement phase at any point by moving outside of 2" (ie the squad and move and the IC stays put or vice versa)

There is some debate on if the IC has to move first before the squad due to RAW, but I've never found anyone who inforces that

So you could move the commander 6 to the new squad, move the new squad 6 to the commander, then as long as they were within 2 inches you could join the new squad. Effectively just be within 14 inches and you are golden

I always build out my support commander with missile pods, EWO, and skyfire. That way he gets to shoot in enemies turn, and buff in my turn. No wasted BS5.

optimusprime14 wrote:
IC's join squads at the end of ther movement phase if they are within 2" of the squad. They can only be a part of 1 squad at a time. They can leave durring the movement phase at any point by moving outside of 2" (ie the squad and move and the IC stays put or vice versa)

There is some debate on if the IC has to move first before the squad due to RAW, but I've never found anyone who inforces that

So basically, if your squads are close enough, he can easily jump to squad to squad in the movement phase, (6in max range between squads so the squads don't have to move?) depending on what's needed. This could work.

I'm tinkering around with a 1500 list as we speak. It's weird but i'm trying to find reasons to spend points on stuff with my commander being a Support'O. Then again, i'm also kind of tailoring the list for a FFA 3 way battle with friends. I've got everything i want and then some though.

Total: 1494

HQ (219pts)

Commander (169pts)
Command and Control Node , Drone controller, Multi-spectrum Sensor Suite , Neuroweb System Jammer, Puretide Engram Neurochip
2x Marker Drone

Ethereal (50pts)

Elites (533pts)

XV104 Riptide (210pts)
Early warning override , Ion accelerator Twin-linked smart missile system, Velocity tracker

XV8 Crisis Team (152pts)

Crisis Shas'ui
Burst cannon Twin-linked missile pod
Crisis Shas'ui )
Burst cannon , Twin-linked missile pod
4x Marker Drone

XV8 Crisis Team (171pts) (For deep strike purposes)

Crisis Shas'ui
Crisis battlesuit, Plasma rifle Twin-linked fusion blaster
Crisis Shas'ui
Crisis battlesuit, Plasma rifle , Twin-linked fusion blaster
Crisis Shas'ui
Crisis battlesuit, Plasma rifle , Twin-linked fusion blaster

Troops (252pts)

Fire Warrior Team (54pts)
6x Fire Warrior Shas'la with pulse rifle

Fire Warrior Team (54pts)
6x Fire Warrior Shas'la with pulse rifle

Fire Warrior Team (72pts)
8x Fire Warrior Shas'la with pulse rifle

Fire Warrior Team (72pts)
8x Fire Warrior Shas'la with pulse rifle

Fast Attack (66pts)

Pathfinder Team (66pts)
6x Pathfinder Shas'la (66pts)
6x Pulse carbine with Markerlight

Heavy Support (424pts)

Hammerhead Gunship (190pts)
Disruption pod Railgun with submunitions , Twin-linked smart missile system
Longstrike


XV88 Broadside Team (234pts)

Broadside Shas'ui (70pts)
Broadside battlesuit, Early warning override Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, Twin-linked smart missile system
Broadside Shas'ui (70pts)
Broadside battlesuit, Early warning override Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, Twin-linked smart missile system
Broadside Shas'ui (70pts)
Broadside battlesuit, Early warning override Twin-linked high-yield missile pod, Twin-linked smart missile system
2x Shield Drone


The list feels weird. But it also feels like i have a lot of fire power going down range, with a good number of markerlights available, especially if i put my commander in the two man crisis squad with the 4 markerdrones. Then again it almost feels like the commander and all the markerlights on other units make for wasted troops and too many markerlights in general. Because at this point, the CNC, and MSS = to about 3-4 markerlights at least.

I could probably remove the pathfinders and some markerdrones, and get piranhas instead for some mobile FB. Work in progress though!

AnonAmbientLight wrote:


Putting markerdrones in a crisis squad seems like a waste because of the low BS and asking for LD rolls when the markerlights take damage. (if they do). They only have a 4+ save. I say, pay the extra 2pts per markerdrone and make a fast attack squad of markerdrones and stick ....but that wouldn't work. Because then your commander has the drone squad already joined and he cant join other squads like the riptide. (nevermind)

Forgot about that detail. -.-

Anyway, Drone controller says drones in the unit use BS of the wearer. Would that confer to the crisis drones as well?

To answer my own question BRB pg 39, an "IC counts as part of the unit for all rules and purposes."

At that point, i wonder if a strategy would be to do like you're doing with the markerdrones on crisis suits, but put marker drones on multiple units. (crisis and broadsides) and have your commander join groups as needed. It's 2pts more than a PF, but you can have an interesting cascading effect, and force multiplier opportunity with multiple squads shooting both their guns and markerlights to buff the next squads markerdrones and shots.

That sounds interesting, at least on paper.

The Tau drones have a special rule in the bestiary for drones with ICs. They can still join units, even when they purchase drones, the drones and the commander become part of the unit. if the commander leaves, the drones go with him. if the commander dies, the drones become permanent members of the unit. your ideas works great.

Commander DC + whatever load-out you want with TL
3x crisis suit unit plus drones
-----------------------------------------
BS5 drones all around (sweet!)

I'm digging that list. Although as I read it, I wonder where my points are going, because i only have 2 crisis suits, 2 broadsides, and a riptide at 1500. I think they're all going into markerlights...and a big fat unit of outflanking kroot.

But i still say with a list like that your crisis suits should have target locks, because whatever you shoot the marker drones at will have to get the crisis team shot at them as well, which will either devistate the unit (if its an appropriate target for burst cannon/missile) or else waste the firepower of what is probably your hardest hitting unit (if it's not an appropriate target).

I don't understand why people put their C&C node and multi-spectrum sensors on their commander. Since commanders have bs5 it is almost always better to pay 10pts to make a regular crisis suit the buffing suit.

I got some down time at work to whip up a 2k list with two ideas.

The Raven commander and a three man Broadside squad with Puretide Chip.

Ethereal

Commander
MSS
CnC
Marker drones(2)
Controller

3x xv8
3x burst cannon
3x plasma gun
3x target lock
1x Marker Drone

Riptide
Fusion
Ion
Stimms
EWO

9x Fire Warriors

9x Fire Warriors

9x Fire Warriors

9x Fire Warriors

9x Fire Warriors

5x Piranha

Hammerhead
Longstrike
Submution
Disruption Pod

Hammerhead
Submution
Disruption Pod

2x Broadside Shas'ui
2x High Yield Missle Pod
1x Broadsie Shas'vre
1x Heavy Rail Rifle
1x Puretide Chip
3x Velocity Trackers.

The Raven buffing thing has been covered, but I think a HRR mixed with the HYMP and a Puretide chip gives some "reach out and touch someone" vibes. I really want to put this on the table and give it a whirl, but I gotta make sure my math is right.

 lambsandlions wrote:
I don't understand why people put their C&C node and multi-spectrum sensors on their commander. Since commanders have bs5 it is almost always better to pay 10pts to make a regular crisis suit the buffing suit.

I think the issues here are a lack of flexibility, durability, and buffing efficiency.

The commander is a lot more flexible, since he can join any squad. If they have lots of 2+ saves, the Commander can join up with a Crisis team. If they have lots of skimmers or flyers, the commander can join up with the Broadsides.

The commander is a lot more durable, since he can take a 2+ save and can make use of LoS (plus he just has more wounds, obviously).

The commander's ability to join a squad increases the total number of models that can enjoy the benefit of his buff. A regular Crisis suit with the buffing systems can buff two other Crisis suits. A Commander can buff three (or three Broadsides and their missile drones). Also, since your buffed unit has more firepower but not more defense than an unbuffed unit, it's a priority target for the enemy. If your Crisis team with a buffing member loses any of its suits, you've lost a lot of value in your buffing systems - either the buffing suit is dead or 50% of what it was buffing is dead. If the Commander's current unit gets shot to pieces around him, he can just take his buffs to another unit that hasn't lost any suits yet.

 lambsandlions wrote:
I don't understand why people put their C&C node and multi-spectrum sensors on their commander. Since commanders have bs5 it is almost always better to pay 10pts to make a regular crisis suit the buffing suit.

Some people will also put EWO on him, shoot his weapons in their phase and then support in his phase. Doesnt work all the time but can be effective lol

Putting all those points into the Commander makes him quite pricey and if he cant intercept, you end up wasting quite a few points.

At 145 points for Iridium armor, Puretide and MSS, the support Commander is an absolute steal. Put him in the right squad (target locks and lots of drones help to take advantage of special rules) and you will do an absurd amount of damage to mech. It is also nice to have AP4 that ignores cover now that Fire Warriors and Avengers will be more popular (and the ever ubiquitous Necron Warrior).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My Commander + Broadside unit is the MVP of almost every match-up I play. Being able to engage 3-4 targets with special rules such as Tank Hunters/MC Hunters is a beautiful thang.

The ability of MSS can be duplicated by markerlights, I feel if it's not super cheap(ie on a shas'vre), you might as well buy the marker lights you need to do the same thing, that way you can use them for more then just the unit the Cmdr is buffing.

MSS is guaranteed though, markerlights can be blown off the table pretty easily, especially if they are mostly concentrated in Pathfinder squads. In the mirror match you will probably lose Pathfinders quickly to ignores cover shots such as SMS.

I don't think the mirrior match is the thing you should be concerned about when building a list. I think getting more firepower by using you commander to shoot and using the markerlights your going to bring anyways to give the bonuses is probably the better way to go. Bringing 150pts that doesn't kill anything, and bringing markerlights anyways since the first 150pts doesn't work on but one unit, seem very inefficient.

So, here's our options on what to do with a commander:

1. fit him with guns and actually have him be offensive (which seems to be unpopular)

2. Load him up with support gear and have him join a squad (the idea proposed)

3. Give him a drone controller and stick him in a unit of marker drones (what i do, and what was suggested immediately following codex release)

I personally feel like 2 or 3 are the way to go. In most situations having either a support commander or BS 5 marker drones will gain you more kills/tactical flexibility than an additional 2 guns (even if it is BS 5).

The question, then, is whether to pursue option 2 or option 3. To be completely honest, upon further inspection I can not see any benefit to option 3 over option 2 unless you want to make absolutely sure you have enough markerlight hits to feed your riptide. a fully kitted support commander is probably still cheaper than a unit of drones and a drone wrangler commander. However it also comes with the downside of significantly degrading the average resilience of your markerlight base. It also might not actually be as effective as markerlights depending on the situation (it might also be more effective, for instance railgun broadsides with tank hunter vs armor 12+) .

Then we have option "2.5" which is to take a crisis team, give them all target locks, and take marker drones. That way you can have 2 and 3 at the same time. This gives you an incredibly resilient source of markerlights and still lets the support commander do his thing. the downside to this is that it limits the effectiveness of the support commander since he is now more tied to one particular unit. he can still hop around if necessary, but he leaves behind 4-6 marker drones that are now BS 2.

EDIT: it also costs more points, and can cost even more if you pull interceptor shenanigans with your commander. (shoot interceptor in opponents turn, then pull support gear out in our turn).

 dementedwombat wrote:
So, here's our options on what to do with a commander:

1. fit him with guns and actually have him be offensive (which seems to be unpopular)

2. Load him up with support gear and have him join a squad (the idea proposed)

3. Give him a drone controller and stick him in a unit of marker drones (what i do, and what was suggested immediately following codex release)

I personally feel like 2 or 3 are the way to go. In most situations having either a support commander or BS 5 marker drones will gain you more kills/tactical flexibility than an additional 2 guns (even if it is BS 5).

The question, then, is whether to pursue option 2 or option 3. To be completely honest, upon further inspection I can not see any benefit to option 3 over option 2 unless you want to make absolutely sure you have enough markerlight hits to feed your riptide. a fully kitted support commander is probably still cheaper than a unit of drones and a drone wrangler commander. However it also comes with the downside of significantly degrading the average resilience of your markerlight base. It also might not actually be as effective as markerlights depending on the situation (it might also be more effective, for instance railgun broadsides with tank hunter vs armor 12+) .

Then we have option "2.5" which is to take a crisis team, give them all target locks, and take marker drones. That way you can have 2 and 3 at the same time. This gives you an incredibly resilient source of markerlights and still lets the support commander do his thing. the downside to this is that it limits the effectiveness of the support commander since he is now more tied to one particular unit. he can still hop around if necessary, but he leaves behind 4-6 marker drones that are now BS 2.

EDIT: it also costs more points, and can cost even more if you pull interceptor shenanigans with your commander. (shoot interceptor in opponents turn, then pull support gear out in our turn).

I think the problem is your breaking it down too much and making the support commander a little vague. Point 1 is not automatically seperate from point 3, ideally you do both 1 and 3 together for maximum benefit. How many units are you really planning on jumping around to? Normally you only see a support commander in one of two units, either a crisis suit unit, or with a broadside squad. (People don't put him with a riptide normally) Typically, once he's with a unit, he'll be there the whole games, since those two units perform in different ways on a battelfield and are not normally in the same area for him to make the easy 6" move from one to the other. So I think you have to go into a match with a plan on who he's going to be with.

Crisis Suits: If he's with these guys, wouldn't it have been better in the first place to just give one guy a Vre upgrade and give him the MSS/C&C/DC? Then give your Commander 2xMP TL, DC (or EWO and VT as perferred) and Puretide. Making him the most flexibile by allowing him to easy be deployed with the broadsides intead, if better anti-tank fire is needed. Still allowing the crisis suit unit to operate independately and effectively since the unit itself no long requires markerlight to operate (due to Vre upgrades) but still provides a dependable 3-4 markerlight hits per turn. Which is a lot, but not normally overkill on a target.

Broadsides: If the commander is here, I ask myself, does he need C&C node? probably not since all the broadside weapons are TL and he's BS5 himself. Does he need MSS? it would help, but why give up his ability to shoot when you could mimic the ability using markerlights? Take 2 marker hits to have the same effect. Seems like a waste.

Overall, I don't see the point in putting MSS/C&C on the commander. Yes having him with puretide is amazing, having him with iridium armor is amazing. That by itself is a good enough reason to take him and put him in a unit. I've been running 2 Commanders in my forces, both kitted out to be support/anti-air. One takes 2xMP, ewo, VT, puretide, IA. And goes with my broadside squad. The second gets 2xmp, DC, ewo, XV-84(IA3 2nd came out recently) and 2x markerdrones. Goes in either a crisis suit squad that has MSS/C&C on a Vre or in a markdrone squad(4x drones).

I find the commanders to be amazing, but in every situation, giving out BS5 and making use of their own BS5 makes every game easier. Why give that up to give TL to one unit and mimic an ability that are army can do anyways.

p.s. if you really want TL that badly, take a Farseer like everyone else and get two units TL for 100pts. A chance at many other good abilities as well, including ignore cover.

I guess it depends on how you play. A Support'O would be ideal for tournaments since you don't know what you're going up against. Now, i haven't played in a tournament before, but i assume you present your list, and then it's "locked", or do i have that wrong? For casual play, you can tailor your list to suit your needs. I would argue the Support'O is not a waste with CNC/MSS/etc, because of the fact you don't always know what you'll be up against, and his flexible nature makes it work.

You're right, BS5 without weapons does seem like a waste. However, the buffs for the riptide pretty much guaranteed that the "markerlight tax" (if i may steal that phrase), is paid for, not just at the start of the game, but THROUGHOUT the entire game. Remember, pathfinders are squishy and receive a lot of hate and might get wiped out by turn 3. Riptide without marker support has a tough time.

One thing i am totally digging is the EWO on the Support'O so you can shoot in the enemy phase and still use your support options on your own phase. Back to the drawing board for my Support'O.

Lately, I've been running Mark'Os with a decent amount of success. I find that small units of Marker Drones (no more than 5) plus the commander's 2 drones are perfectly sufficient. The drones are less squishy than Pathfinders and are way more mobile. It's true that one of your drone units will probably only score 1-2 hits when your Mark'O isn't with them, but that's often enough to increase your damage output significantly. The unit your Commander is with,however, typically provides enough markerlight support to essentially delete any unit you want every turn.

I've run the support commander with Broadsides, and while it's an unbelievably awesome unit, it's almost too awesome. That is, the Broadsides do really, really well on their own without Tank Hunter. Unless you're facing a bunch of armor you need to wipe out NOW, I think your points or support would be better used elsewhere. Tacking on some serious upgrades and an extra 4 S7 BS5 shots seems like overkill.

I can vouch for the Mark'Os as well. I run two above 1500, both with Drone controllers, dual missile pods, and target locks. With 6 total marker drones, it gives me about 5 tokens which can buff one Riptide to BS6 and ignore cover. The 4 missile shots work out great since I generally don't need to reduce cover with them and they're already BS5. It gives me a support unit and a unit that provides support fire all in one mobile unit.

My friend recently tried running Firesight marksmen, but just found them too limited after turn 2 due to terrain issues. Same problem with pathfinders really. We both pretty much just use markerdrones now, and he throws in Eldar allies as well.

Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

A few more words in favor of the Support'O.

1.) The C&C node is actually still pretty useful for Broadsides because Missile Drones will hit 5/9ths of the time instead of 1/3rd of the time. Not a game breaker, but not a waste since you're wanting the M3S to deny cover anyway.

2.) The Support Commander probably has the Iridium Armor, so is insanely tough. This is one of the major ways he can offer support to squads, by tanking hits. This is huge with Crisis Suits, as he can tank stuff like Battle Cannon shots and Missile Launchers. It's also useful on Broadsides as it's 4 more wounds, but also a way to soak Lascannons and the like.

Biophysical wrote:
A few more words in favor of the Support'O.

1.) The C&C node is actually still pretty useful for Broadsides because Missile Drones will hit 5/9ths of the time instead of 1/3rd of the time. Not a game breaker, but not a waste since you're wanting the M3S to deny cover anyway.

2.) The Support Commander probably has the Iridium Armor, so is insanely tough. This is one of the major ways he can offer support to squads, by tanking hits. This is huge with Crisis Suits, as he can tank stuff like Battle Cannon shots and Missile Launchers. It's also useful on Broadsides as it's 4 more wounds, but also a way to soak Lascannons and the like.

Interesting points. I didn't think about the missile drones on broadsides. Yeesh, that's a lot of accurate dakka on a horde army that's trying to get in CC, especially if they're missilesides. Then add the fact you'll have a FW line with maybe an ethereal with storm buff? Plus supporting fire??! Sick nasty.

Point 2 has been made more clear to me. I was sitting here wondering why people were putting the 25pt Iridium Armor on a guy doing support in the background, but using him as a shield himself? Brilliant. Although his T will be the overall T of the squad he's in. Remember that.

I've actually been throwing the idea around of fitting my broadsides with railguns and EWO then taking missile drones. Intercept stuff with the railguns then fire the missile drones in my turn, or else fire everything (i generally engage the same targets with both missiles or rails, it's jsut a matter of which targets I prioritize first).

I'm still not sure if it's smart or horrible though.

I did that a few games and got lucky enough to shoot a helldrake out of the sky thanks to two twin-linked railrifles.

The problem is that the HRR isn't really suited for overwatch. The majority of vehicles in reserves will be flyers and you're depending on extreme luck to take them down. The only useful role they would have during intercept would be shooting at a few T4 2wound models that a Riptide couldn't finish off.

Basically every time I brought Broadsides with EWO I kept thinking about how I wasted 5 points per model.

The Iridium commander's toughness is 4 for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not when calculating instant death. That's where it really matters.

Biophysical wrote:
The Iridium commander's toughness is 4 for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not when calculating instant death. That's where it really matters.

Your talking about majority toughness right?
because the iridium armor gives +1 toughness, not some strange recalculations from instant death.

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

I like to travel to tournaments as well. So whenever I build a list, I don't base it off of my local meta. So I find it to be an important matchup to consider.

 Desubot wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The Iridium commander's toughness is 4 for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not when calculating instant death. That's where it really matters.

Your talking about majority toughness right?
because the iridium armor gives +1 toughness, not some strange recalculations from instant death.

Think they mean that if you had an Iridium commander at the front of, say, a unit of broadsides, the opponent would roll to wound against T4 (as that's the majority) but would only be able to inflict Instant Death on the Iridium model with S10.

So the T5 model sits at the front and protects the unit from ID and if they get hit by S10 they can LOS it to someone else (such as a drone).

 LValx wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

I like to travel to tournaments as well. So whenever I build a list, I don't base it off of my local meta. So I find it to be an important matchup to consider.

With that in mind shouldn't your main concern still be the big tourney winning lists. Of which I've only heard of one Tau win since the Codex release. BTW, that list had no commanders in it at all.

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

I like to travel to tournaments as well. So whenever I build a list, I don't base it off of my local meta. So I find it to be an important matchup to consider.

With that in mind shouldn't your main concern still be the big tourney winning lists. Of which I've only heard of one Tau win since the Codex release. BTW, that list had no commanders in it at all.

Well, focus would be on what I would be expecting to see, of course. But I also plan for what I wont expect in order to minimize the chances of encountering a "hard" counter. Also, it takes a little but for players to digest codexes and get it all ready for GTs. From everything i've heard Tau completely dominated at Killadelphia, with most of the players going undefeated day one and a pure Tau list won. That Tau list ran no Commander, but it didnt need to, it had plenty of markerlights and benefited more from doubling up on Ethereals. I'm not going to compare my list and his, but they are very different. I am a big believer in the support Commander and find him to be an amazing force multiplier. I don't think he is necessary for all builds, but I do believe he is worthy of consideration. I've also tried different set-ups for him (shootier and with Marke Drones), I've found the support set-up to be the most tactically flexible for me. YMMV, but i'd definitely give him a shot in a maxed out Broadside unit with maxed Drones and some Target Locks. That set-up allows you to confer the rules to a large number of shots (28 Str. 7, 12 Str. 5).

Commander with drone controller and other goodies + 6 marker drones - 220 ish pts, or you can take a unit of 3 crisis suits with 6 missile podes, drone controller & 4-6 marker drones. Surely points effeciency wise, if you want a support unit + firepower, you take the crisis suits! Utilise JSJ with BLOS terrain, a skyray's markerlights increases the BS of the unit so no need for BS5, voila!

That's my normal setup, really. I run a 3 man Crisis team with M3S, C&C node, and drone controller on the Vre, with 2x Missile Pods and target locks, and 6 Marker drones. It's about 260 points, has mobile markerlights that are almost BS5 (better vs. flyers) and puts out the equivalent of 2 HYMP Broadsides worth of missiles on the move (3 HYMP Broadides worth of missiles if shooting at something in cover, because they ignore it).

My Commander has 2 Missile Pods, target lock, drone controller, iridium armor, and some support gear, along with two shield drones. He is deployed with either the above squad to boost their resilience and add his firepower (MOAR MISSILES) or he goes with my close assault Crisis Team with fusion blasters, plasma guns, and gun drones. It's pretty great, because each Crisis team is good on its own, but the Commander makes whichever one he joins amazing, so I can boost one or the other depending on mission and opponent.

nevermind, im dumb lol