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MSS is guaranteed though, markerlights can be blown off the table pretty easily, especially if they are mostly concentrated in Pathfinder squads. In the mirror match you will probably lose Pathfinders quickly to ignores cover shots such as SMS.

I don't think the mirrior match is the thing you should be concerned about when building a list. I think getting more firepower by using you commander to shoot and using the markerlights your going to bring anyways to give the bonuses is probably the better way to go. Bringing 150pts that doesn't kill anything, and bringing markerlights anyways since the first 150pts doesn't work on but one unit, seem very inefficient.

So, here's our options on what to do with a commander:

1. fit him with guns and actually have him be offensive (which seems to be unpopular)

2. Load him up with support gear and have him join a squad (the idea proposed)

3. Give him a drone controller and stick him in a unit of marker drones (what i do, and what was suggested immediately following codex release)

I personally feel like 2 or 3 are the way to go. In most situations having either a support commander or BS 5 marker drones will gain you more kills/tactical flexibility than an additional 2 guns (even if it is BS 5).

The question, then, is whether to pursue option 2 or option 3. To be completely honest, upon further inspection I can not see any benefit to option 3 over option 2 unless you want to make absolutely sure you have enough markerlight hits to feed your riptide. a fully kitted support commander is probably still cheaper than a unit of drones and a drone wrangler commander. However it also comes with the downside of significantly degrading the average resilience of your markerlight base. It also might not actually be as effective as markerlights depending on the situation (it might also be more effective, for instance railgun broadsides with tank hunter vs armor 12+) .

Then we have option "2.5" which is to take a crisis team, give them all target locks, and take marker drones. That way you can have 2 and 3 at the same time. This gives you an incredibly resilient source of markerlights and still lets the support commander do his thing. the downside to this is that it limits the effectiveness of the support commander since he is now more tied to one particular unit. he can still hop around if necessary, but he leaves behind 4-6 marker drones that are now BS 2.

EDIT: it also costs more points, and can cost even more if you pull interceptor shenanigans with your commander. (shoot interceptor in opponents turn, then pull support gear out in our turn).

 dementedwombat wrote:
So, here's our options on what to do with a commander:

1. fit him with guns and actually have him be offensive (which seems to be unpopular)

2. Load him up with support gear and have him join a squad (the idea proposed)

3. Give him a drone controller and stick him in a unit of marker drones (what i do, and what was suggested immediately following codex release)

I personally feel like 2 or 3 are the way to go. In most situations having either a support commander or BS 5 marker drones will gain you more kills/tactical flexibility than an additional 2 guns (even if it is BS 5).

The question, then, is whether to pursue option 2 or option 3. To be completely honest, upon further inspection I can not see any benefit to option 3 over option 2 unless you want to make absolutely sure you have enough markerlight hits to feed your riptide. a fully kitted support commander is probably still cheaper than a unit of drones and a drone wrangler commander. However it also comes with the downside of significantly degrading the average resilience of your markerlight base. It also might not actually be as effective as markerlights depending on the situation (it might also be more effective, for instance railgun broadsides with tank hunter vs armor 12+) .

Then we have option "2.5" which is to take a crisis team, give them all target locks, and take marker drones. That way you can have 2 and 3 at the same time. This gives you an incredibly resilient source of markerlights and still lets the support commander do his thing. the downside to this is that it limits the effectiveness of the support commander since he is now more tied to one particular unit. he can still hop around if necessary, but he leaves behind 4-6 marker drones that are now BS 2.

EDIT: it also costs more points, and can cost even more if you pull interceptor shenanigans with your commander. (shoot interceptor in opponents turn, then pull support gear out in our turn).

I think the problem is your breaking it down too much and making the support commander a little vague. Point 1 is not automatically seperate from point 3, ideally you do both 1 and 3 together for maximum benefit. How many units are you really planning on jumping around to? Normally you only see a support commander in one of two units, either a crisis suit unit, or with a broadside squad. (People don't put him with a riptide normally) Typically, once he's with a unit, he'll be there the whole games, since those two units perform in different ways on a battelfield and are not normally in the same area for him to make the easy 6" move from one to the other. So I think you have to go into a match with a plan on who he's going to be with.

Crisis Suits: If he's with these guys, wouldn't it have been better in the first place to just give one guy a Vre upgrade and give him the MSS/C&C/DC? Then give your Commander 2xMP TL, DC (or EWO and VT as perferred) and Puretide. Making him the most flexibile by allowing him to easy be deployed with the broadsides intead, if better anti-tank fire is needed. Still allowing the crisis suit unit to operate independately and effectively since the unit itself no long requires markerlight to operate (due to Vre upgrades) but still provides a dependable 3-4 markerlight hits per turn. Which is a lot, but not normally overkill on a target.

Broadsides: If the commander is here, I ask myself, does he need C&C node? probably not since all the broadside weapons are TL and he's BS5 himself. Does he need MSS? it would help, but why give up his ability to shoot when you could mimic the ability using markerlights? Take 2 marker hits to have the same effect. Seems like a waste.

Overall, I don't see the point in putting MSS/C&C on the commander. Yes having him with puretide is amazing, having him with iridium armor is amazing. That by itself is a good enough reason to take him and put him in a unit. I've been running 2 Commanders in my forces, both kitted out to be support/anti-air. One takes 2xMP, ewo, VT, puretide, IA. And goes with my broadside squad. The second gets 2xmp, DC, ewo, XV-84(IA3 2nd came out recently) and 2x markerdrones. Goes in either a crisis suit squad that has MSS/C&C on a Vre or in a markdrone squad(4x drones).

I find the commanders to be amazing, but in every situation, giving out BS5 and making use of their own BS5 makes every game easier. Why give that up to give TL to one unit and mimic an ability that are army can do anyways.

p.s. if you really want TL that badly, take a Farseer like everyone else and get two units TL for 100pts. A chance at many other good abilities as well, including ignore cover.

I guess it depends on how you play. A Support'O would be ideal for tournaments since you don't know what you're going up against. Now, i haven't played in a tournament before, but i assume you present your list, and then it's "locked", or do i have that wrong? For casual play, you can tailor your list to suit your needs. I would argue the Support'O is not a waste with CNC/MSS/etc, because of the fact you don't always know what you'll be up against, and his flexible nature makes it work.

You're right, BS5 without weapons does seem like a waste. However, the buffs for the riptide pretty much guaranteed that the "markerlight tax" (if i may steal that phrase), is paid for, not just at the start of the game, but THROUGHOUT the entire game. Remember, pathfinders are squishy and receive a lot of hate and might get wiped out by turn 3. Riptide without marker support has a tough time.

One thing i am totally digging is the EWO on the Support'O so you can shoot in the enemy phase and still use your support options on your own phase. Back to the drawing board for my Support'O.

Lately, I've been running Mark'Os with a decent amount of success. I find that small units of Marker Drones (no more than 5) plus the commander's 2 drones are perfectly sufficient. The drones are less squishy than Pathfinders and are way more mobile. It's true that one of your drone units will probably only score 1-2 hits when your Mark'O isn't with them, but that's often enough to increase your damage output significantly. The unit your Commander is with,however, typically provides enough markerlight support to essentially delete any unit you want every turn.

I've run the support commander with Broadsides, and while it's an unbelievably awesome unit, it's almost too awesome. That is, the Broadsides do really, really well on their own without Tank Hunter. Unless you're facing a bunch of armor you need to wipe out NOW, I think your points or support would be better used elsewhere. Tacking on some serious upgrades and an extra 4 S7 BS5 shots seems like overkill.

I can vouch for the Mark'Os as well. I run two above 1500, both with Drone controllers, dual missile pods, and target locks. With 6 total marker drones, it gives me about 5 tokens which can buff one Riptide to BS6 and ignore cover. The 4 missile shots work out great since I generally don't need to reduce cover with them and they're already BS5. It gives me a support unit and a unit that provides support fire all in one mobile unit.

My friend recently tried running Firesight marksmen, but just found them too limited after turn 2 due to terrain issues. Same problem with pathfinders really. We both pretty much just use markerdrones now, and he throws in Eldar allies as well.

Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

A few more words in favor of the Support'O.

1.) The C&C node is actually still pretty useful for Broadsides because Missile Drones will hit 5/9ths of the time instead of 1/3rd of the time. Not a game breaker, but not a waste since you're wanting the M3S to deny cover anyway.

2.) The Support Commander probably has the Iridium Armor, so is insanely tough. This is one of the major ways he can offer support to squads, by tanking hits. This is huge with Crisis Suits, as he can tank stuff like Battle Cannon shots and Missile Launchers. It's also useful on Broadsides as it's 4 more wounds, but also a way to soak Lascannons and the like.

Biophysical wrote:
A few more words in favor of the Support'O.

1.) The C&C node is actually still pretty useful for Broadsides because Missile Drones will hit 5/9ths of the time instead of 1/3rd of the time. Not a game breaker, but not a waste since you're wanting the M3S to deny cover anyway.

2.) The Support Commander probably has the Iridium Armor, so is insanely tough. This is one of the major ways he can offer support to squads, by tanking hits. This is huge with Crisis Suits, as he can tank stuff like Battle Cannon shots and Missile Launchers. It's also useful on Broadsides as it's 4 more wounds, but also a way to soak Lascannons and the like.

Interesting points. I didn't think about the missile drones on broadsides. Yeesh, that's a lot of accurate dakka on a horde army that's trying to get in CC, especially if they're missilesides. Then add the fact you'll have a FW line with maybe an ethereal with storm buff? Plus supporting fire??! Sick nasty.

Point 2 has been made more clear to me. I was sitting here wondering why people were putting the 25pt Iridium Armor on a guy doing support in the background, but using him as a shield himself? Brilliant. Although his T will be the overall T of the squad he's in. Remember that.

I've actually been throwing the idea around of fitting my broadsides with railguns and EWO then taking missile drones. Intercept stuff with the railguns then fire the missile drones in my turn, or else fire everything (i generally engage the same targets with both missiles or rails, it's jsut a matter of which targets I prioritize first).

I'm still not sure if it's smart or horrible though.

I did that a few games and got lucky enough to shoot a helldrake out of the sky thanks to two twin-linked railrifles.

The problem is that the HRR isn't really suited for overwatch. The majority of vehicles in reserves will be flyers and you're depending on extreme luck to take them down. The only useful role they would have during intercept would be shooting at a few T4 2wound models that a Riptide couldn't finish off.

Basically every time I brought Broadsides with EWO I kept thinking about how I wasted 5 points per model.

The Iridium commander's toughness is 4 for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not when calculating instant death. That's where it really matters.

Biophysical wrote:
The Iridium commander's toughness is 4 for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not when calculating instant death. That's where it really matters.

Your talking about majority toughness right?
because the iridium armor gives +1 toughness, not some strange recalculations from instant death.

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

I like to travel to tournaments as well. So whenever I build a list, I don't base it off of my local meta. So I find it to be an important matchup to consider.

 Desubot wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The Iridium commander's toughness is 4 for the purposes of rolling to wound, but not when calculating instant death. That's where it really matters.

Your talking about majority toughness right?
because the iridium armor gives +1 toughness, not some strange recalculations from instant death.

Think they mean that if you had an Iridium commander at the front of, say, a unit of broadsides, the opponent would roll to wound against T4 (as that's the majority) but would only be able to inflict Instant Death on the Iridium model with S10.

So the T5 model sits at the front and protects the unit from ID and if they get hit by S10 they can LOS it to someone else (such as a drone).

 LValx wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

I like to travel to tournaments as well. So whenever I build a list, I don't base it off of my local meta. So I find it to be an important matchup to consider.

With that in mind shouldn't your main concern still be the big tourney winning lists. Of which I've only heard of one Tau win since the Codex release. BTW, that list had no commanders in it at all.

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:

Coyote81 wrote:

 LValx wrote:
Not everyone invests heavily into Markerlights...

Also, planning for the mirror match-up is one of the MOST important things you could do. Tau are very powerful and very popular. If you cannot beat opposing Tau, good luck.

This is all dependent on your local meta. In my area, me and one other person play Tau at competitive events. he doesn't make it to very many due to work schedule, so the mirror match is not something I'm concerned about. All the other Tau player that might play their are stuck with a 5th ed mentality and have been brutally slaughter in every mirror match.

I totally agree with not making a list that is markerlight dependent. my 2k list runs one markerdrone squad joined by a commander and a skyray. That is all I have for markerlights. But with the added farseer, I don't even need that many.

I like to travel to tournaments as well. So whenever I build a list, I don't base it off of my local meta. So I find it to be an important matchup to consider.

With that in mind shouldn't your main concern still be the big tourney winning lists. Of which I've only heard of one Tau win since the Codex release. BTW, that list had no commanders in it at all.

Well, focus would be on what I would be expecting to see, of course. But I also plan for what I wont expect in order to minimize the chances of encountering a "hard" counter. Also, it takes a little but for players to digest codexes and get it all ready for GTs. From everything i've heard Tau completely dominated at Killadelphia, with most of the players going undefeated day one and a pure Tau list won. That Tau list ran no Commander, but it didnt need to, it had plenty of markerlights and benefited more from doubling up on Ethereals. I'm not going to compare my list and his, but they are very different. I am a big believer in the support Commander and find him to be an amazing force multiplier. I don't think he is necessary for all builds, but I do believe he is worthy of consideration. I've also tried different set-ups for him (shootier and with Marke Drones), I've found the support set-up to be the most tactically flexible for me. YMMV, but i'd definitely give him a shot in a maxed out Broadside unit with maxed Drones and some Target Locks. That set-up allows you to confer the rules to a large number of shots (28 Str. 7, 12 Str. 5).

Commander with drone controller and other goodies + 6 marker drones - 220 ish pts, or you can take a unit of 3 crisis suits with 6 missile podes, drone controller & 4-6 marker drones. Surely points effeciency wise, if you want a support unit + firepower, you take the crisis suits! Utilise JSJ with BLOS terrain, a skyray's markerlights increases the BS of the unit so no need for BS5, voila!

That's my normal setup, really. I run a 3 man Crisis team with M3S, C&C node, and drone controller on the Vre, with 2x Missile Pods and target locks, and 6 Marker drones. It's about 260 points, has mobile markerlights that are almost BS5 (better vs. flyers) and puts out the equivalent of 2 HYMP Broadsides worth of missiles on the move (3 HYMP Broadides worth of missiles if shooting at something in cover, because they ignore it).

My Commander has 2 Missile Pods, target lock, drone controller, iridium armor, and some support gear, along with two shield drones. He is deployed with either the above squad to boost their resilience and add his firepower (MOAR MISSILES) or he goes with my close assault Crisis Team with fusion blasters, plasma guns, and gun drones. It's pretty great, because each Crisis team is good on its own, but the Commander makes whichever one he joins amazing, so I can boost one or the other depending on mission and opponent.

nevermind, im dumb lol