Chancetragedy wrote: Swarmlord with iron arm is pretty crazy. I bet it would be pretty close.
It wouldn't be close (I know from games) The Swarmlord still gave Horus 2 wounds though. 3+ Invul is really helpful
But yeah Horus would probably insta kill a non buffed Swarmlord
Kain wrote: Doesn't Horus hit at S10 AP2? Yeah that pretty much seals the deal right there.
Angron has 10 S:10 AP:2 attcks on the charge
But Angron has a paltry MEQ save, and I misread the rule, the worldbreaker gets AP1 and S10 and concussive. Because feth all the things.
Forget Abaddon, Horus is going to take *everyone's* lunch money, he can even beat a Biotitan's face in.
Going from the HH book, I'm not seeing how Angron gets 10 attacks on the charge.
6 base (including the bonus for 2 CCW) + 1 on the charge is 7attacks at S8 AP2 (getting some rerolls from Hatred, I think)
He only has a 3+ 4++ but also has a 6++ FNP, which probably evens out for Horus having the 2+ 3++ (Against each other, they're throwing all of their attacks at AP2 anyway... might get different if each has a squad or characters w/ him)
Angron has Higher WS & Init and one more attack:
Horus has 5 attacks (6 on the charge) that can be split between striking at initiative (AP2 at S7) and wounds that don't call give the enemy -1WS/S for the rest of the game and Unwieldy (I1) mastercrafted and Concussion
If it were me running Horus, I'd also try to have some characters around me, 'cause Angron has a rule requiring him to divide attacks... but Horus is 100 points more than Angron, so the WE would probably outnumber the Sons
But straight up I'd probably give a slight(?) edge to Horus, for being able to do concussive/crippling damage to weaken his opponent as the fight moves forward -- and an extra wound to keep him around long enough to take more advantage of those abilities
He'd probably insta kill the Swarmlord, I hope you were kidding
I have no idea what his stats are and whether or not he has Eternal Warrior, it was a legitimate question.
In game it is a legitimate question.
Swarmy is always going into combat with at least one lash guard. You can't say "unbuffed" because Swarmlord is psychic...that's like trying to compare Mephiston to something and saying without the powers. And if you don't count book powers to simplify it, Paroxysm and Preffered Enemy balance things too.
Iron Arm, Endurance, or Warp Speed make it close. He also make Horus reroll that 3+ invuln. (passes 45% of those invulns) and if he's not EW, which I bet he is, you could insta-gib him on a single wound.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if he does kill the Swarmlord, we'll just make more
ShadarLogoth wrote: Until he fights a Destroyer Lord and is forced to beat his own face in....
With a 3++ Save he's more or less safe from his own attacks. Here are some of his goodies from his wargear along with a monstrous creature like statline
1d4chan wrote:The Serpent's Scale- A specially enhanced set of Terminator armor with a +2 Armor save and a +3 Invulnerable save, and it nullifies psychic powers on a 3+. It also ignores effects that would adversely modify his characteristic profile on a 3+. Use against psykers for best results.
Worldbreaker- A Master Crafted power maul said to have been made by the Emperor himself, and it shows. Although it has the Unwieldy quality, the Concussive rule can easily nullify its effects if hitting a foe at S10 and AP1 doesn't just kill them outright.
The Warmaster's Talon- The custom-made lightning claws wielded by Horus (and later Failbaddon) lack the sheer force of the Worldbreaker, but they compensate with the twin-linked bolter built into them for use at long range as well as the Shred rule. But their most dangerous quality is the special rule Disabling Strike. Any unit who is wounded but not killed by the Talon in an Assault phase suffers a -1 to WS and Strength for the rest of the game. And it stacks.
Teleportation Matrix- Horus and any attached Terminator units can Deep Strike, and will not scatter when doing so. Since Legion Terminators don't get to Deep Strike like their post-Heresy counterparts, this is a big help for them.
Frag Grenades- Do we really need to explain what a frag grenade does?
Cognis Signum- Gives him the night vision special rule, prevents infiltrators from dropping near him and gives him +1 BS (which he can pass on to another unit within 6" if he doesn't shoot.
If he passes his leadership roll, he has enough attacks to kill the destroyer lord in a single round and then leave his guard in shambles.
Well, with Iron Arm and Warp Speed, a charging Swarmlord will deal 6-8 Strength 7-9 AP 2 attacks, hitting on 3s, (unless Horus is WS 9-10) forcing rerolls on successful invulnerable saves and causing instant death ( though I assume a Primarch would have Eternal Warrior). Can Horus take that and then kill a WS 9 Toughness 7-9 MC with 5 wounds and a 4++? If he can survive but not kill the Swarmlord, can he survive the next round of combat to try and finish it off?
PrinceRaven wrote: Well, with Iron Arm and Warp Speed, a charging Swarmlord will deal 6-8 Strength 7-9 AP 2 attacks, hitting on 3s, (unless Horus is WS 9-10) forcing rerolls on successful invulnerable saves and causing instant death ( though I assume a Primarch would have Eternal Warrior). Can Horus take that and then kill a WS 9 Toughness 7-9 MC with 5 wounds and a 4++? If he can survive but not kill the Swarmlord, can he survive the next round of combat to try and finish it off?
Well, Horus does have a statline befitting of a trygon that knows kung fu and went to marksmanship school so the Swarmlord is wounding on 2s and 3s. As he does have EW he's not going away, but his best weapon to wound the swarmlord strikes at I 1 so he has to take the beating first. Then he unloads with the WORLDBREAKER. Sorry it's just that something like that should always be put in caps.
Can that question even be taken seriously? He's a fetching primarch. THE fetching primarch. If he can't kick the Swarmlords teeth in then somebody messed up big time.
Kids, remember this is 40k tactics. Your opinions on fluff and personal experiences mean very little.
The swarm lord will give him a run for his money. He may not win, but he does do about 2 wounds to the primarch. Your simple dismissal "is that an actual question" is both childish and ridiculous. Horus may be a good fighter, but the swarmlord can be T9, hit on 3's, wound on 2's amd force him to reroll his invulnerable saves. You cannot instagib the swarmlord without rules allowing it.
Scipio Africanus wrote: Kids, remember this is 40k tactics. Your opinions on fluff and personal experiences mean very little.
The swarm lord will give him a run for his money. He may not win, but he does do about 2 wounds to the primarch. Your simple dismissal "is that an actual question" is both childish and ridiculous. Horus may be a good fighter, but the swarmlord can be T9, hit on 3's, wound on 2's amd force him to reroll his invulnerable saves. You cannot instagib the swarmlord without rules allowing it.
The Swarmlord would be a great challenge, but only with at least Iron Arm, warp speed helps, and if he can get Endurance on him he can actually beat Horus more often than not.
Nevertheless, whenever a hulked out Swarmlord fights a Primarch, you definitely should have over the top epic video game boss music playing.
Problem is with Swarmlord and Mephiston is that only under ideal circumstances can they match him. You need all the right powers to do it and the right rolls to get there. Where as Horus and Angron are set in stone with what they do. If you dont get the toughness up on the swarmlord than Horus can talon its stats every combat and if you do get your toughness up than he hits you with WORLDBREAKER and makes you Initiative 1. Ideally Swarmlord and Mephiston can match a primarch but realistically only if luck be on your side. Eldrad with all his psychic shenangans and +3 rerollable invul and wounding on a +2 might be able with some luck win the battle of attrition.
Not to mention he has IWND and might regen every turn. Does anyone else feel Swarmy is going to take a nerf bat to the groin when the next codex drops?
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Not to mention he has IWND and might regen every turn. Does anyone else feel Swarmy is going to take a nerf bat to the groin when the next codex drops?
Doubt it, if anything he'll get buffed as he's the super sekrit special character.
Now Tervigons...Tervigons will be nerfed, marked my words.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Not to mention he has IWND and might regen every turn. Does anyone else feel Swarmy is going to take a nerf bat to the groin when the next codex drops?
Doubt it, if anything he'll get buffed as he's the super sekrit special character.
Now Tervigons...Tervigons will be nerfed, marked my words.
I will kill every baby in the world if tervigons get nerfed. If t'nids can't have baby poopers, no one can.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Not to mention he has IWND and might regen every turn. Does anyone else feel Swarmy is going to take a nerf bat to the groin when the next codex drops?
Doubt it, if anything he'll get buffed as he's the super sekrit special character.
Now Tervigons...Tervigons will be nerfed, marked my words.
I will kill every baby in the world if tervigons get nerfed. If t'nids can't have baby poopers, no one can.
They might get a change in utility like Broadsides instead of a true nerf though.
Kain wrote: Nevertheless, whenever a hulked out Swarmlord fights a Primarch, you definitely should have over the top epic video game boss music playing.
Kain wrote: Nevertheless, whenever a hulked out Swarmlord fights a Primarch, you definitely should have over the top epic video game boss music playing.
The hyperbole surrounding Horus makes my eyes hurt.
Of course an Iron-Armed Swarmlord is more than a match for Horus. IA Swarmy is probably the best fighter in the game.
Also, with 4 rolls on the Biomancy table, the Swarmlord has over an 85% chance to get Iron Arm meaning that it is far more likely than not going to get it.
I believe the Primarch rules also confer to them IWND rule also. Problem is Iron Arm Swarmlord can hurt him but its still about statistics. You need to get the power first, even with 4 rolls on biomancy your odds of getting it are not 85% because you roll one dice at a time. Than you have to get the power off which with leadership 10 odds are in your favor. But on the flipside your odds of rolling a 1-2 are exactly the same as rolling a 5-6. You need to luck to match up against Horus and Angron in combat, not saying its not possible cause its the same way with Mephiston if you get the right stuff, but your outcome of being able to even stay in combat with him is all dependent on luck. You dont get Iron Arm than your gonna be splattered.
UncleGlock wrote: I believe the Primarch rules also confer to them IWND rule also. Problem is Iron Arm Swarmlord can hurt him but its still about statistics. You need to get the power first, even with 4 rolls on biomancy your odds of getting it are not 85% because you roll one dice at a time.
UncleGlock wrote: I believe the Primarch rules also confer to them IWND rule also. Problem is Iron Arm Swarmlord can hurt him but its still about statistics. You need to get the power first, even with 4 rolls on biomancy your odds of getting it are not 85% because you roll one dice at a time. Than you have to get the power off which with leadership 10 odds are in your favor. But on the flipside your odds of rolling a 1-2 are exactly the same as rolling a 5-6. You need to luck to match up against Horus and Angron in combat, not saying its not possible cause its the same way with Mephiston if you get the right stuff, but your outcome of being able to even stay in combat with him is all dependent on luck. You dont get Iron Arm than your gonna be splattered.
You also get to reroll any result that lands you with a power you already rolled up, so figure that in too.
Personally i think the best bet for killing a Primarch and slaughtering the Swarmlord is Skarbrand. 7 attacks base, 9 attacks on the charge, init 10, ws 10, with Hatred. Has an ap2 axe at initiative with fleshbane so he wounds on +2 and he causes instant death.
UncleGlock wrote: Personally i think the best bet for killing a Primarch and slaughtering the Swarmlord is Skarbrand. 7 attacks base, 9 attacks on the charge, init 10, ws 10, with Hatred. Has an ap2 axe at initiative with fleshbane so he wounds on +2 and he causes instant death.
With Iron arm he isn't getting instant death, nor will he get instant death on Horus, who also wounds him on a 2+ and has a 3+ invulnerable save. Skarbrand will lose the first round and continue to lose as he's being forced to strike at I1 against Horus due to concussive. The Swarmlord also will rebuff his attacks with a 4++ invul save and IWND from endurance and strike him down with attacks that wound him on a 2 and force him to reroll his paltry invulnerable save.
I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.
I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.
Horus beat the buffed Swarmlord's face in as he should due to being one of the strongest primarchs. I don't know where everyone is getting the Swarmlord being able to win except by miracles but due to the 3+ invul Horus will always win and by a large margin. Horus being dealt 2 wounds and then healing 1 of them (Horus has 6) is what is statistically most likely to happen if they meet
I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.
I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.
I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.
Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"
I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.
I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.
I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.
I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.
Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"
I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.
Don't say that, or else he might end up with wings, mastery level 3, and armored shell and everyone will give us dirty looks when we use him.
I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.
I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.
I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.
Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"
I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.
Don't say that, or else he might end up with wings, mastery level 3, and armored shell and everyone will give us dirty looks when we use him.
Swarmlord with Wings...
Who let Mat Ward into our codex?
Heck, if that was true I'd carry around a mirror to give myself dirty looks when I used him.
I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.
I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.
I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.
Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"
I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.
Don't say that, or else he might end up with wings, mastery level 3, and armored shell and everyone will give us dirty looks when we use him.
Swarmlord with Wings...
Who let Mat Ward into our codex?
Heck, if that was true I'd carry around a mirror to give myself dirty looks when I used him.
To be fair, the Swarmlord Model would look rockingly badass with wings.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Not to mention he has IWND and might regen every turn. Does anyone else feel Swarmy is going to take a nerf bat to the groin when the next codex drops?
He's already over-costed, if they nerf him he'll end up being basically useless, and I don't really see them doing that after they made him an option in the Hive Tyrant kit.
UncleGlock wrote: Personally i think the best bet for killing a Primarch and slaughtering the Swarmlord is Skarbrand. 7 attacks base, 9 attacks on the charge, init 10, ws 10, with Hatred. Has an ap2 axe at initiative with fleshbane so he wounds on +2 and he causes instant death.
With Iron arm he isn't getting instant death, nor will he get instant death on Horus, who also wounds him on a 2+ and has a 3+ invulnerable save. Skarbrand will lose the first round and continue to lose as he's being forced to strike at I1 against Horus due to concussive. The Swarmlord also will rebuff his attacks with a 4++ invul save and IWND from endurance and strike him down with attacks that wound him on a 2 and force him to reroll his paltry invulnerable save.
Yet again you supposition for Swarm Lord is that your always gonna get Iron Arm and Eternal Warrior. Your logic all depends on luck. If you dont have Eternal Warrior than Skarbrand instant kills you. If you dont get +2 Stength or better than your wounding on +3. You have 4 attacks plus whatever else you might pick up from random psychic powers. +4 invul and it will not die wont save you from all wounds and you only get to roll once for it will not die a turn. Skarbrand hits you on +3s with reroll with instant death and 7-9 attacks wounding you no matter your toughness on 2s. Your entire argument hinges on you having Iron Arm and Endurance. What happens if you have Iron Arm and no Endurance? Instant death and your gone. What happens if you Endurance and no Iron Arm? Now your wounding me on +4 unless you halve your attacks and go strenghth 10 in which case im still T6 so what. you need +4 to hit me unless you buff your WS up to 10. Not saying Swarmlord isnt a beast but too much of what he can do is all dependent on luck whereas Primarchs and Skarbrand have everything built in.
UncleGlock wrote: Personally i think the best bet for killing a Primarch and slaughtering the Swarmlord is Skarbrand. 7 attacks base, 9 attacks on the charge, init 10, ws 10, with Hatred. Has an ap2 axe at initiative with fleshbane so he wounds on +2 and he causes instant death.
With Iron arm he isn't getting instant death, nor will he get instant death on Horus, who also wounds him on a 2+ and has a 3+ invulnerable save. Skarbrand will lose the first round and continue to lose as he's being forced to strike at I1 against Horus due to concussive. The Swarmlord also will rebuff his attacks with a 4++ invul save and IWND from endurance and strike him down with attacks that wound him on a 2 and force him to reroll his paltry invulnerable save.
Yet again you supposition for Swarm Lord is that your always gonna get Iron Arm and Eternal Warrior. Your logic all depends on luck. If you dont have Eternal Warrior than Skarbrand instant kills you. If you dont get +2 Stength or better than your wounding on +3. You have 4 attacks plus whatever else you might pick up from random psychic powers. +4 invul and it will not die wont save you from all wounds and you only get to roll once for it will not die a turn. Skarbrand hits you on +3s with reroll with instant death and 7-9 attacks wounding you no matter your toughness on 2s. Your entire argument hinges on you having Iron Arm and Endurance. What happens if you have Iron Arm and no Endurance? Instant death and your gone. What happens if you Endurance and no Iron Arm? Now your wounding me on +4 unless you halve your attacks and go strenghth 10 in which case im still T6 so what. you need +4 to hit me unless you buff your WS up to 10. Not saying Swarmlord isnt a beast but too much of what he can do is all dependent on luck whereas Primarchs and Skarbrand have everything built in.
If he doesn't get IA, I won't allow you to get into assault with him and instead have him tarpitted by an endless swarm of cheap (quite often free) gants for the rest of forever. Meaning you've wasted all your points on the bloodthirster while I keep on trucking.
And concession accepted on Horus beating Skarbrand's face in.
Skarbrand is 225 points. Yet again you say you will tarpit me with your stuff and ill destroy your tarpit with my horde of cheap bloodletters. My hordes are cheap now, its the nice thing about demon troops now. Your counterpoint isnt very good. But goes to my point that your argument falls apart when luck isnt on your side. In a perfect world Mephiston and Swarmlord are awesome. But its not perfect and if your Swarmlord, not sure his cost, is now ducking me the whole game cause you didnt get one power than hes probably not as good as something that comes static awesome. I run Mephiston alot, one of my favorite characters, but even at lvl 3 dont always get what i want.
UncleGlock wrote: Skarbrand is 225 points. Yet again you say you will tarpit me with your stuff ill destroy your tarpit with my horde of cheap bloodletters. Your counterpoint isnt very good.
Bloodletters are terrible and die like chumps to overwatch and cross field shooting by either Legion list or Tyranid shooting and then get stuck at hitting at initiative one and thus getting beaten to death by gants with toxin sacs or marines. Smart people buy Daemonettes instead. With the exception of Skarbrand, monokhorne in the Daemons book is exceedingly terrible.
I disagree with your thoughts bout bloodletters but do agree about daemonettes being nice but now we are totally off track. Your counter argument to "my Swarm Lord is awesome as long as luck is on my side but when it isnt was to throw chaff at you and run aways." Than hes not really that big a threat to a primarch or Skarbrand. Though i retract my previous thought on going toe to toe with Horus with Skarbrand. I forgot about the concussive part of his weapon.
UncleGlock wrote: Personally i think the best bet for killing a Primarch and slaughtering the Swarmlord is Skarbrand. 7 attacks base, 9 attacks on the charge, init 10, ws 10, with Hatred. Has an ap2 axe at initiative with fleshbane so he wounds on +2 and he causes instant death.
With Iron arm he isn't getting instant death, nor will he get instant death on Horus, who also wounds him on a 2+ and has a 3+ invulnerable save. Skarbrand will lose the first round and continue to lose as he's being forced to strike at I1 against Horus due to concussive. The Swarmlord also will rebuff his attacks with a 4++ invul save and IWND from endurance and strike him down with attacks that wound him on a 2 and force him to reroll his paltry invulnerable save.
Yet again you supposition for Swarm Lord is that your always gonna get Iron Arm and Eternal Warrior. Your logic all depends on luck. If you dont have Eternal Warrior than Skarbrand instant kills you. If you dont get +2 Stength or better than your wounding on +3. You have 4 attacks plus whatever else you might pick up from random psychic powers. +4 invul and it will not die wont save you from all wounds and you only get to roll once for it will not die a turn. Skarbrand hits you on +3s with reroll with instant death and 7-9 attacks wounding you no matter your toughness on 2s. Your entire argument hinges on you having Iron Arm and Endurance. What happens if you have Iron Arm and no Endurance? Instant death and your gone. What happens if you Endurance and no Iron Arm? Now your wounding me on +4 unless you halve your attacks and go strenghth 10 in which case im still T6 so what. you need +4 to hit me unless you buff your WS up to 10. Not saying Swarmlord isnt a beast but too much of what he can do is all dependent on luck whereas Primarchs and Skarbrand have everything built in.
You're confused about what Iron Arm and Endurance do.
If he doesn't get IA (unlikely) he's very likely to get Enfeeble. Enfeeble + Smash == dead Skarbrand iirc (no Eternal Warrior, right?)
All these swarmlord arguments depend on him getting Iron Arm. Without it, he is biting the dust hard on turn 1. Can we really take such an important factor for granted?
If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: All these swarmlord arguments depend on him getting Iron Arm. Without it, he is biting the dust hard on turn 1. Can we really take such an important factor for granted?
He has an 80% chance of getting it, if not he has the rest of the biomancy table, none of which is bad. Or if you want to be cheeky he could be invisible and thus autowin most fights and be immune to dakka.
But Horus as standard? Short of Daemon Angron, nobody who's not a gargantuan creature is beating him in assault without buffing shenanigans.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone run Horus against the Daemon Lords like Zarakynel?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone run Horus against the Daemon Lords like Zarakynel?
An'ggrath ought to win. He's got on average 10 attacks at WS10 S10 I5 on the charge (and he flies 24" a turn, so he'll get the charge) and has 8 wounds backed up by a 4++ so that he can take a punch and keep going. His T8 is a bit of a letdown, but that's his only flaw in this lineup. He pretty much murderizes anything he comes into contact with.
Enfeeble is great but yet again its dependent on getting it off and not having it denied. Than you still have the problem that Skarbrand is swinging way before you and if you dont have Eternal Warrior your insta-dead. Even if your toughness a million he still wounds you on a +2. Everyone of your arguments depends on what you get, and what you get is all random, no gurantees. With the Primarchs and Skarbrand have gear that instantly makes them a problem. The real question to be asked is can anyone reliably deal with a Primarch?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone run Horus against the Daemon Lords like Zarakynel?
An'ggrath ought to win. He's got on average 10 attacks at WS10 S10 I5 on the charge (and he flies 24" a turn, so he'll get the charge) and has 8 wounds backed up by a 4++ so that he can take a punch and keep going. His T8 is a bit of a letdown, but that's his only flaw in this lineup. He pretty much murderizes anything he comes into contact with.
Doesn't An'ggrath rather amusingly lose to Zarakynel in assault due to her ability to outright ignore invulnerable saves?
UncleGlock wrote: Enfeeble is great but yet again its dependent on getting it off and not having it denied. Than you still have the problem that Skarbrand is swinging way before you and if you dont have Eternal Warrior your insta-dead. Even if your toughness a million he still wounds you on a +2. Everyone of your arguments depends on what you get, and what you get is all random, no gurantees. With the Primarchs and Skarbrand have gear that instantly makes them a problem. The real question to be asked is can anyone reliably deal with a Primarch?
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: All these swarmlord arguments depend on him getting Iron Arm. Without it, he is biting the dust hard on turn 1. Can we really take such an important factor for granted?
Pretty much, yes. Even if he doesn't get Iron Arm he has the potential to stack other powers (Warp Speed, Endurance, Enfeeble all help significantly) to increase his chances.
Ahem, *smacks Glock with the WORLDBREAKER to get him back on topic*.
LOL Glock goes to I1 and gains Unwieldy.
I wish i had my book with me. I cant remember what Mortarion and Fulgrim can do but they both do some awesome crap too. I know that Angron, depending on the game, can get up to and xtra 10 attacks i believe stacked onto his profile so its quite possible under a perfect world he could slay Horus np since the longer battle goes on the bigger and badder he gets.
Ahem, *smacks Glock with the WORLDBREAKER to get him back on topic*.
LOL Glock goes to I1 and gains Unwieldy.
I wish i had my book with me. I cant remember what Mortarion and Fulgrim can do but they both do some awesome crap too. I know that Angron, depending on the game, can get up to and xtra 10 attacks i believe stacked onto his profile so its quite possible under a perfect world he could slay Horus np since the longer battle goes on the bigger and badder he gets.
Well Angron is the most martial of the Primarchs.
Makes me excited to see Sanguinus as he's supposed to be the most powerful of the Primarchs.
Blood Angels my first army. I love them in the books. Cant wait for Sanguinius, flying monstrous primarch. Other thing to consider for the Primarchs is that they can join units so they can keep jumping into units for ablative wounds. Mephiston cant do that, neither can Skarbrand, Swarmlord has body guards i believe so he has something but once there gone he stuck too.
Another thing to remember is that if you take a Primarch in a regular game than your opponent has access to taking a Super Heavy such as a Baneblade or a Titan so technically Horus isnt the most powerful model at that point because your not playing Apocalypse.
I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.
I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.
I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.
Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"
I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.
I don't think he'll lose Biomancy, what I think he'll lose is 4 rolls on the table which all but guarantee him Iron Arm and/or Warp Speed and Endurance. At most I'd see him get Mastery Level 3, so three rolls on the table, and a distinct possibility he'll only be level 2, or that he'll have at least one forced roll on a new Tyranid psyker table. It's not Swarmy possibly getting Iron Arm that's an issue just now, it's the fact he's almost guaranteed it.
I suspect Swarmy will get hit with a bit of a nerf bat; after all when he was originally designed he was never intended to have psychic powers that boost his toughness, strength, attacks, and give him EW and IWND.
I think SL using only Codex powers would probably lose pretty quick to Horus, or any of the Primarchs - as you'd expect given the difference in points cost.
I very much doubt Tyranids and Swarmy in particular will lose access to Biomancy or Telepathy.
Iron Arm, Biomancy being given to bugs, and most bug psykers being T6 is not something that is just "unintended"
I think Swarmlord will stay close to what he is. He is supposed to be the master of all tactics and combat...his weakness is being slow and easy to shoot.
I don't think he'll lose Biomancy, what I think he'll lose is 4 rolls on the table which all but guarantee him Iron Arm and/or Warp Speed and Endurance. At most I'd see him get Mastery Level 3, so three rolls on the table, and a distinct possibility he'll only be level 2, or that he'll have at least one forced roll on a new Tyranid psyker table. It's not Swarmy possibly getting Iron Arm that's an issue just now, it's the fact he's almost guaranteed it.
Ahem
*Smacks Dundas with the WORLDBREAKER to get him back on topic*.
krazykishere wrote: If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.
The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus
krazykishere wrote: If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.
The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus
Of which maybe two or so will wound. And then Horus hits back and then smashes in the Daemon Prince's face.
out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.
So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.
krazykishere wrote: If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.
The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus
Where do you get the 2+ reroll from? I get that Daemon of Tzeentch lets you reroll 1's, but where's the 2++ from? At best you'd have a 3++ from the Grimoire (unless I've completely misunderstood how it works, which is possible).
MarkyMark wrote: out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.
So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.
Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.
krazykishere wrote: If you get really lucky with a daemon prince with a black mace and wings and draw invisibility, warp speed and iron arm you could drop swarmy hard. The luck factor on that is rather extreme and expensiv3 however. Horus would still smash that dp however. That 3++ is rough on a 6 wound model.
The best possible combo is a daemon prince but stuff the black mace. Daemon prince of Tzeentch, prescienced, forewarned and grimoired, Iron arm and warp speed with 4+ FNP and greater etherblade and staff of change. Thats up to 10 attacks on the charge re rolling to hit at str 10 ap2, any return blows have to get through a 2plus re rolling 1's. Good luck to swarmy and Horus
Where do you get the 2+ reroll from? I get that Daemon of Tzeentch lets you reroll 1's, but where's the 2++ from? At best you'd have a 3++ from the Grimoire (unless I've completely misunderstood how it works, which is possible).
Forewarn grants a 4++, which is then increased by 2 by the Grimoire. Also, MarkyMark, I dare you to make a list designed to create that monstrosity.
MarkyMark wrote: out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.
So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.
Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.
Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.
MarkyMark wrote: out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.
So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.
Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.
Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.
And if Horus wants to he can instead use his claw and reduce your WS and strength by one every time he hits at initiative.
Your prince won't be very tough when he hits at WS1 at lower than grot strength.
MarkyMark wrote: out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.
So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.
Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.
Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.
And if Horus wants to he can instead use his claw and reduce your WS and strength by one every time he hits at initiative.
Your prince won't be very tough when he hits at WS1 at lower than grot strength.
Bad move, str 6 toughness 8 is 6's to wound, plus with iron arm its ok for toughness for str he is base 6 plus 2 for staff plus whatever for iron arm. Plus I have to be wounded first no?.
Its a slim chance to get all those powers but its unstoppable if you do
MarkyMark wrote: out of 10 attacks on the charge why only 2 will wound?, and with a 2 plus invul re rolling 1's I doubt he will lose many wounds.
So 10 attacks on the charge, 3's to hit re rolling, then 2's to wounds, thats like 7 wounds on Horus, with a 3 plus save he will lose a couple of wounds, Horus hits back with 5 attacks hitting on 4's and wounding on 2's if using str 10 then prince has to do say 3 2plus invul's re rolling failed saves, lucky to get one wound on the prince.
Is your Daemon Prince's WS higher than Horus'? If not then only half of your attacks will get to hit.
Horus WS8, Prince WS9 plus presience lets you re roll misses.
And if Horus wants to he can instead use his claw and reduce your WS and strength by one every time he hits at initiative.
Your prince won't be very tough when he hits at WS1 at lower than grot strength.
Bad move, str 6 toughness 8 is 6's to wound, plus with iron arm its ok for toughness for str he is base 6 plus 2 for staff plus whatever for iron arm. Plus I have to be wounded first no?.
Its a slim chance to get all those powers but its unstoppable if you do
Zarakynel could kill your model in an eyeblink due to a superior initiative and her ignoring of invulnerable saves. No you don't get to reroll them, you don't get to roll them period. And she's not that much more expensive than Horus.
This thread intrigued me, so I went ahead and worked out a dice test between Swarmlord and Horus.
I rolled on biomancy with all 4 powers and managed to get iron arm and warp speed. I then proceeded to work out the combat 1v1, not giving the bonus attack for charging.
ROUND 1
Swarmlord passed both psychic tests, getting +1 strength/toughness and 3 initiative/attacks. Because Horus has initiative 6, simply casting off warp speed means Swarmy goes first. Swarmlord gave himself Preferred Enemy via Swarm Leader ability, and ended up causing 2 wounds to Horus. Horus in return dished out 5 attacks with his special lightning claws at strength 7 with reroll to wound due to shred, causing 2 wounds. Because of this, Swarmlord is now down 2 WS and 2 S. Horus then proceeded to fail his It Will Not Die roll.
ROUND 2
Swarmlord passed both psychic tests again, bringing him up to strength 5 and toughness 7, with i7 and 5 attacks, and again, preferred enemy. He strikes first, dealing 2 more wounds to Horus. Horus in return dealt another 2 wounds with his Talons, dragging down another 2ws and strength. Horus again fails his it will not die roll.
ROUND 3
Swarmlord passes his psychic tests again, getting +3 s/t and +2 attacks/initiative, however, the lightning claws are seriously taking their toll. Before modifiers, he's currently fighting at ws5 and strength 2 vs Horus's ws8 and t6. To overcome this, he smashes with his iron flesh to bring his attack up to strength 7. With preferred enemy, and my surprise, he manages to make Horus reroll his invulnerable save to cause him to lose his final two wounds, killing him. Swarmlord wins...down 4 ws, 4 strength, and only one wound remaining, but still alive.
Conclusion: Is Horus insanely powerful? Yes indeed. Is he invincible? Of course not. Personally I was surprised at how close these two can duke it out in close combat, though if the Swarmlord didn't have his powers, I'm sure the result would have been very different. I did a second dice test after this one, which turned into a long battle of attrition. Swarmy had iron arm and endurance this time, but whiffed in a few rounds, and after 7 rounds of Horus beating on him with the Talons and World Breaker, the Swarmlord went down, but not before causing Horus 4 wounds.
If you ask me, the reason why Swarmlord is able to hold his own against a 600 point model is for a couple reasons. Due to blade parry, iron arm, and warp speed, he is able to counteract Horus's debuffs and his beastly 3++. Without iron arm, Swarmlord would be getting considerably weaker due to Horus's ability to cripple as he fights, not to mention at t9, world breaker only wounds on a 3. However also keep in mind these two are almost never found alone - Horus is an independent character and Swarmy has his tyrant guard.
My personal favorite part of this whole thing? Despite costing as much as a land raider, the Swarmlord is still technically a "point efficient" way of dealing with Horus. Then again so is tarpitting him with gaunts for the whole game, but that's another scenario entirely
Formosa wrote: No one would use the talon vs swarmy, worldbreaker is what would be used
Keep in mind Swarmlord has the higher ws, by taking away that advantage, you take away hitting on 3's rerolling 1's and make horus hit on 3's instead. it also rerolls to wound. World Breaker makes horus i1, but makes swarmlord i1 if it connects. It's also the only thing to reliably hurt swarmy when he's t9.
Then again, Horus can split his attacks between both
