So, I've seen a lot of lists that incorporate an ADL so that got me wondering why the defense line is so popular, but I haven't seen anything incorporating the imperial bastion...

On paper, the bastion gives you an ADL (including quad gun) + a batch of heavy bolters for +25 points... admittedly unless you're modeling for advantage, you're probably only going to get 1 or two HB shots per turn, but that strikes me that it might be worth it...

Ok, so you can't put vehicles _inside_ the bastion, but you can block LOS (in theory, I dunno if the new rhinos can be seen from behind it) or at least get a similar cover save, no?

Now, I certainly understand fluffy objections... I don't think I'd take a bastion because it seems like too big an investment in fortifying for forces that are quick-hitting/moving, whereas the ADL feels like something that a mobile force could set up quickly... but is there a gameplay reason that the bastion doesn't work that I'm not seeing?

Cheers,

I think the biggest problem is just size. Unlike the ADL which can fit just about everywhere, the bastion is actually big and bulky. If you are going to a store to play you may not want to lug that thing around. Also from what I have seen it has no way to easily break down. I think if it was easier to transport it would be more popular.

I want to like the Bastion but I'm turned off by all the extra rules involved with buildings compared to an ADL.

That said, it has a lot of potential hiding expensive elite armies that can get saves against the various collapsing results.

Making a unit "embark" and suddenly become fearless in a AV 14 box is a turn off?

I've used it and it's a death trap big time look at some of those damage results.
Also you can score from in there

Most in my meta don't use it (nor landing platform) because it's poorly written rules-wise one way or the other... like most of 6th ed.
Great ideas... poorly executed...

I'm going to be fielding a Bastion for my GK+Tau Allies to sit my Broadsides inside since they always get shot up first, so I don't need to get shield drones for them. It's great for putting an otherwise vulnerable firing station way up front, and allows for you to do so without the risk of them getting shot to hell and back or getting charged.

The meta now is shifting away from AV14, so having an all-around AV14 with firing points is good. It's essentially a Land Raider with firing points for 75 points. The size of carrying one around, though...

I love the model, always have, but I feel like a chump rocking up to a game and plonking down my little pillow fort! I save it for home games because it just doesn't feel like something that an army might just randomly have on them in an encounter. I get the idea but it just feels weird.

Given the number of armies that can now ignore cover, the advantage of the ADL is starting to fade. The bastion, however, still provides the full amount of protection even with cover-avoiding weapons.

The trick is that the bastion cannot be used to screen half your army, like the ADL. The bastion instead is good for 3 different units.

 lambsandlions wrote:
I think the biggest problem is just size. Unlike the ADL which can fit just about everywhere, the bastion is actually big and bulky. If you are going to a store to play you may not want to lug that thing around. Also from what I have seen it has no way to easily break down. I think if it was easier to transport it would be more popular.

That was my concern in writing one into my Tourney list, but it turns out that it breaks down nicely. Two wall sections, then the battlement wall and the 5 bits that make up the floor. With careful arrangement, the whole thing fits neatly into half of a standard KR multicase box. (Upend the lower half, nestle the top section inside it, then the battlement wall sits in front of it at an angle. The wall sections then go wherever you want them to.) The locating lugs that help you to assemble the various sections also hold the model together quite nicely as well.

But I didn't see many of them at my last Tourney (and even less Skyshield landing pads, there was a grand total of 1) so I don't think many people have figured out my way of breaking it down.

I love mine. 5 Grey Knights with 2 Psycannons on the upper level, poke the Psycannons and 2 Storm Bolters out of the firing slits, and let the other guy man the Heavy Bolter. Cast Warpquake to stop those annoying Melta Marines Podding in to slag your building and Bob's your Uncle. (The Vidicare manning the ICarus on the roof is just a happy bonus)

Just watch out for MCs. :(

I prefer to actually deploy my models on the table, instead of having them sit on the side while we all pretend they are in a building.

Bunch of reasons:
1: Most units you want to hide in a bastion are units that arent normally survivable. However, any pen causes those units to start taking some pretty serious hits.
2: Expensive. 50 points for ADL. 75 points for bastion
3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.

 zephoid wrote:
Bunch of reasons:

3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.

Bastions have windows that allow firing points. IIRC, there are two on each facing.
As for hiding a squad, the biggest argument is about all of the ignoring cover weapons emerging. Bastions and vehicles are the only thing that counter this.
I concede point 5. An ADL packs up much easier.

The bastion has its merits. I would not simply write it off. It may not fit your list or playstyle, but it is definitely a viable choice.

As for damage results decimating people inside and/or on the roof, that is definitely a possibility.

 zephoid wrote:
Bunch of reasons:
1: Most units you want to hide in a bastion are units that arent normally survivable. However, any pen causes those units to start taking some pretty serious hits.
2: Expensive. 50 points for ADL. 75 points for bastion
3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.

1. Any pen result only causes Strength 6 hits. This is a lot better than taking a Strength 8 or Strength 9 weapon to the face that can instant-death you, e.g. Lascannon to a Broadside suit. Using the same example, my 2+ save shrugs it off with no problem. Very few weapons out there can reliably pen AV14 either, without getting up close.

2. 25 points more isn't that much, considering the huge upgrade in survivability. There are too many Ignore Cover weapons around, like Tau markerlights, so the ADL isn't that good a choice anymore. ADLs also risk you getting charged and are directional, thus a DS unit landing behind will shoot your squad with impunity. I've Deepstriked Tarantula sentry guns with TLHBs behind ADLs with great effect.

3. Firing points are listed "As per model". There are approximately 2 on each side, of which each allows 2 models to fire from. This allows a full HW squad to fire from one side.

4. Reserving a squad isn't a great idea if it's a shooty squad...

5. I agree with the ease of portability use, but only that. Bastions have a Transport Capacity of 20 models plus battlements - it's enough for most of my starting on-board army (GK+Tau).

Conclusion: Bastions are worth the 25 points upgrade from an ADL.

Would be interesting to drop a trio of Oblits into one. Now they are Fearless with a 2+ for the damage results. Hide some Blood Letters on the quad gun on the roof.

I want to like it, would be perfect for my IW, but transport and extra rule hassles are an issue, as is cost over ADL.

I love seeing my opponents field Bastions rather than ADLs. I can kill bastions since I still bring lascannons and multimeltas. In addition, the combination of height and battlements mean that there is a sizable dead zone that the gun emplacement can't fire on.

I consider an ADL in every list. Bastion is like taking pyrovores or banshees. There is always something better to do with those points. A skyshield is pretty much always a better investment and is much easier to transport if you magnetize the legs. 4+ inv and 5+ cover (if you can improve it via G2G or stealth) that cant be destroyed and functions in melee and works on tanks. Versus an AV14 (well, maybe not even 14 after a turn or two since you can degrade armor) bunker that hurts you when destroyed.

1: Who cares about ID. Are you seriously running paladin squads in a bastion? Where lascannons and missiles are single shots, you take a serious number of S6 hits for partial and total collapse. S6 is deadly to guard and guard have one of the few multi-wound infantry in the game (HWT) so the difference between S6 and S8 is all of nothing.

2: Survivability is very relative. You can hide one squad in a bastion and maybe one on top. My whole army gets cover from an ADL. If you seriously are taking a bastion over an ADL for the one army in the game that can negate cover you have a very single-minded priority or are tailoring a list to anti-tau. Eldar have the wave serpent shield and thats it to ignore cover. At S7 and AP- its probably doing less damage than building collapses.

3: I had forgotten that it does have firing points, though it alternates 2-1-2-1 on facings. Still worse than the "open topped" skyshield.

4: Reserve is an amazing idea for shooty squads without HW. Why the hell would i reserve a melee squad? Reserving some guardians or jetbikes for some solutions to deepstrike, outflank, or air-drop is always a good idea. Keeps troops safe, gives you firepower where you need it, and makes the enemy account for your even greater mobility or risk losing squads. I do it with the odd hellhound or plasma grenadeer squads with DKOK too.

5: 20 models that must be in one squad. Its a transport, you cant fit more than 1 squad inside. Sticking things on the roof is even worse for that combo. Jump down at -2 (its 6" tall) on the check or die after the building collapses. So half your squad dies on average.

I use it to get my lootas on high ground. You can easilly fit twelve or thirteen of them on the roof.

I don't play tourneys though.

 zephoid wrote:
I consider an ADL in every list. Bastion is like taking pyrovores or banshees. There is always something better to do with those points. A skyshield is pretty much always a better investment and is much easier to transport if you magnetize the legs. 4+ inv and 5+ cover (if you can improve it via G2G or stealth) that cant be destroyed and functions in melee and works on tanks. Versus an AV14 (well, maybe not even 14 after a turn or two since you can degrade armor) bunker that hurts you when destroyed.

1: Who cares about ID. Are you seriously running paladin squads in a bastion? Where lascannons and missiles are single shots, you take a serious number of S6 hits for partial and total collapse. S6 is deadly to guard and guard have one of the few multi-wound infantry in the game (HWT) so the difference between S6 and S8 is all of nothing.

2: Survivability is very relative. You can hide one squad in a bastion and maybe one on top. My whole army gets cover from an ADL. If you seriously are taking a bastion over an ADL for the one army in the game that can negate cover you have a very single-minded priority or are tailoring a list to anti-tau. Eldar have the wave serpent shield and thats it to ignore cover. At S7 and AP- its probably doing less damage than building collapses.

3: I had forgotten that it does have firing points, though it alternates 2-1-2-1 on facings. Still worse than the "open topped" skyshield.

4: Reserve is an amazing idea for shooty squads without HW. Why the hell would i reserve a melee squad? Reserving some guardians or jetbikes for some solutions to deepstrike, outflank, or air-drop is always a good idea. Keeps troops safe, gives you firepower where you need it, and makes the enemy account for your even greater mobility or risk losing squads. I do it with the odd hellhound or plasma grenadeer squads with DKOK too.

5: 20 models that must be in one squad. Its a transport, you cant fit more than 1 squad inside. Sticking things on the roof is even worse for that combo. Jump down at -2 (its 6" tall) on the check or die after the building collapses. So half your squad dies on average.

1. No, I'm running Missilesides in a Bastion as they always get focus-fired by everything Strength 5, 6, 7, and 8. My army doesn't need cover save a few units that do.
2.Serpent Shield spams are going to become a lot more prevalent in the coming months. Good luck for ADL campers. I bet you that we're going to see a lot more Ignore Cover weapons coming in the next releases too - it's been the trend that the last two 'dexes have set.
3. See above. I don't have 20 men inside that need to shoot, only 3.
4. Sure. I do walk-on Fire Warrior squads, so I don't put them in my Bastion. But I'm not going to walk-on a Broadside or Pathfinder squad that can have an effect from T1 and only snap-shot the turn they come on. I wasn't saying that Reserves was a bad idea.
5. Units inside don't need to jump down (unless catastrophic collapse happens), they can move through the building without needing to take an Impact test and disembark as they would normally from a vehicle. Also, your math is off. Impact Tests are merely DTs with a modifier, so you can still take Armor Saves. Less than half your squad will die on average.

I thought the rules disallowed armor saves for jumping down.

Impact tests do not allow armor saves, and they are not negated by Move Through Cover. In addition, you can't move down from the roof through the building if the building is occupied. Being on the roof of a building is an awful place to be.

I stand corrected regarding Impact tests. However, you CAN move directly from the roof to exit and vice versa if the building is occupied by a friendly unit. Page 95, BRB.

Bastions are a mixed bag. Really, it entirely depends on your army list and what you expect to be facing if its an appropriate choice. Much like anything else in this game.

I've been taking a Bastion over an ADL for a few games now. For my current list, there are several advantages offered:

1. AV 14. Not a lot can deal with AV 14 reliably so its relatively safe. Most of the things that can realistically deal with it have other targets they generally want to shoot at.

2. I can put a Long Fang Pack on the roof of the building while another one is embarked in the building.

3. Against Heldrakes, one of my Long Fang Packs only has to worry about D6 hits. The unit is too small to spread out enough to prevent a Torrent weapon from being able to nab them all, so its nice having a chance that the whole unit won't get wiped out.

4. My Long Fang Pack Leader can fire a Heavy Bolter while the rest of his squad fires from the Fire Points.

5. It is important to note, you have Access Points and Fire Points "as per model", so potentially you could have as many as you want on any given facing. My Bastion is currently part of a 12-pack of Coke since I'm not sold on it yet.


It's only been a few games, but I have one problem with it:

1. The unit on the roof is not Fearless, and when they break they have to jump down if you already have a unit inside. Given the height of a Bastion, its a 50% chance each surviving model will die. Also, if you placed your Quad Gun on the roof, now no one is manning it without sacrificing firepower by moving.


Since my current list is rocking x3 Long Fang Packs (soon to change I think) it would probably have been better to take a Skyshield Landing Pad (4++ against the Torrent from a Heldrake following RAW is tasty), except then I don't get a gun emplacement. But then the only massive weakness I've had to deal with locally is things Ignoring Cover Saves.

actually there's a lot of misinformation going on in general in this thread and I think it's really the lack of use of this model so I'll clarify some of them through here as I use the bastion extensively and have actually won local RTTs with it and have seen it win or at least place high in other RTT's where I was spectating as well.

P95 - you can actually have a ladder or the like on the side of the building. It will allow access to the roof without going through the inside (fist column 5th paragraph down)

P 116 - there's actually 3 firing points possible on 2 of the sides and 1 to 0 based on where you place the door. It's 2 on the mid level and one on the bottom level that may or may not be covered by the door. There are no exact standards on which facing the door must be on. You can have one side with 3 firing points anyway even if you put the door exactly as pictured on page 116.

Each firing point allows 2 models to shoot through -p 93. You can have a squad of 4 devestators all shooting their weapons through even sides with just 2 firing points and can have the sergeant shooting the emplaced heavy bolter.

P96 - you can even fire automatically at other targets with automated fire rules

p18 - most places tend to agree that a vehicle that is 25% obscured will get 3+ cover from this purpose built fortified building. This will stack with things like camo cover, holofields and disruption pods and you will get a 2+ cover with tanks that are partially obscured here. Can generally fit one on each side. While you can't cover a whole gunline, you often don't need to. It's played very differently. You can also guarantee that your squishy models with barrage are nice and protected from LOS so that they can't even target you with things like necron 120' gauss pylons

Given the amount of cover save stripping powers, having completely blocked LOS is often more important and just a good cover save. I've used this to be as far forward as possible in my deployment zone as FMC daemons before just so I can guarantee that I can start on the board and have nothing being able to target me as I'll be deploying them quite far forward as possible. Hiding the portaglyph is also very useful in this scenario. It's like taking fateweaver. It takes some of the random out of chaos daemons and that makes them more consistently good.

P93 last paragraph- you can just leave the building as a nice LOS blocker that's essentially invulnerable as it cannot be attacked so it can't be targeted at all (though you can still scatter into it)

---------------------------------------

The bastion isn't for hiding a gunline so it doesn't do the same thing as an Aegis. It does block 1-3 units extremely well. provides an elevated position for long range weapon systems to get a LOS (conversion beamers come to mind). It can hold down a corner extremely well and can be a very nice fire base. It is not as nearly as hard to bring around as say a skyshield. That thing is way too massive. It is also hollow on the inside. I actually slide my bits bin and glue inside to make space when traveling. Also tau tetras/speeders fit well inside.

Favorite tactic at present with a bastion - coteaz with 2 PC servitors + 2 jokaeros with some bolter henchemen and an Icarus lascannon on top. The inside will have some battle sister allies with heavy bolters that may get rending. 5 woman squad with 4 heavy bolters purchased and the sister superior shooting the emplaced heavy bolter is quite effective as anti-horde and other things if I get enough rends. 3+ armor is good enough for the odd glancing hit. GK warpquake and coteaz's IBEY (often with divination and lots of AP2) is enough to deter anything trying to deep strike melta the thing.

No, I can't hide an entire IG platoon behind it but then again, not every army can field or even have a large enough horde to take advantage of such a thing.

Don't forget that for any S6 hits inflicted by building damage, the unit in the battlements takes the same number of S3 hits.

But I guess if your opponent lets you use an optimally sized cardboard box with all the fire ports on the same side, you're going to think it's better than it actually is.

And I have to ask. With no tanks in your army, what better is there to shoot lascannons or bright and dark lances, or multimeltas, or demolisher cannons at than a building full of Long Fangs?

zephoid wrote:Bastion is like taking pyrovores or banshees. There is always something better to do with those points.
1: Most units you want to hide in a bastion are units that arent normally survivable. However, any pen causes those units to start taking some pretty serious hits.
2: Expensive. 50 points for ADL. 75 points for bastion
3: No fire points beyond HB. Therefore heavy weps squads wont hide in it and face init tests if the building is destroyed and they are on top.
4: "hiding" a squad is not very useful. If i wanted to hide a squad, i would reserve it. sitting a squad inside a bastion is hiding it.
5: Too large to easily tote around, too small to have much of an impact on the table. ADL provide cover for most of your army. Bastion for only a few things.

Your spreading mis-information. The bastion is not askin to pyrovores or banshees.

1) It is much harder to penetrate AV 14 than it is to cause a wound on a single T4 model.

2) The bastion is 25 points more than the ADL. That's only a 1.25% of a 2000 point game. The cost difference is marginal between the two.

3) Your incorrect on the fire points. As mentioned, you can have 4 heavy weapons fire out easily from elevated fire points.

4) Hiding a squad is extremely useful in today's meta. More armies now have tools that ignore cover. This means that the ADL is not as useful for protecting non-MEQ armies.

5) You must have the bastion confused with the fortress of redemption. The bastion fits into my tablewar case easily, next to my soulgrinder. If you play with flyers, MCs, etc, your probably used to taking large models.

I suspect your strongly biased to the ADL as its treated you well in your games. The bastion is a different kind of fortification, and one that still has value.
For example, if your playing a list with 6 flyers, a bastion can help you to keep from getting tabled before your flyers can come onto the board, where an ADL will not be able to complete this.
Another good use of the bastion is to hide a FMC so you can start with it on the board, giving you one more turn of effect.

One of the guys at my local store uses a Bastion from time to time. In one game, his opponent threw grenades into it to kill the squad inside and then melee'ed his way to the roof - fully overtaking it. The fact that your opponent can sneak into the lower level while you're on the roof makes it a liability and a requirement to keep 2 units in it. If you can get it close to an objective, it can be useful, else it is arguably harder to defend than a ADL.

Never used one, but I like the sound of Bastions. Hiding a squad inside sounds great, and I think its worth it putting a squad on top. The Bastion isnt exactly getting closer to the enemy, he shouldn't have much pointing at it, and the kind of firepower needed is a lot considering its low points cost. Consider that 4 Havocs in a Bastion are less than 200 points for the firepower, and toughness, that it includes.

I think folks haven't actually seen them used very much. I run the bastion a lot and it has only ever been blown up twice. Either people don't prioritize it because it isn't worth VP and isn't a threat in itself, or they come back to it and can't take out av14 at range.

Once: Weirdboy melta power.
Twice: Scarab charge

Other than that it contains retributors for the 2 extra rending heavy bolters and some squad on top to run the quad/icarus. I've jumped off, moved through, etc. No one has ever taken over the whole thing through assault or otherwise.

I generally put the back door next to an objective and face it so that two facings are pointed at the enemy deployment. This allows maximum use of the emplaced weapons (you can really only ever fire 2 at one target). I also make sure to use auto-fire whenever possible against other targets. I also usually hide an exorcist or manticore behind it for the 3+ save.

For Sisters, that thing is a steal.

 sudojoe wrote:
P95 - you can actually have a ladder or the like on the side of the building. It will allow access to the roof without going through the inside (fist column 5th paragraph down)

The Imperial Bastion model does not come with an external Ladder. Adding one would be modeling for advantage and is against the rules. So no, you aren't "saved" by anything on Page 95.

 sudojoe wrote:
P 116 - there's actually 3 firing points possible on 2 of the sides and 1 to 0 based on where you place the door. It's 2 on the mid level and one on the bottom level that may or may not be covered by the door. There are no exact standards on which facing the door must be on. You can have one side with 3 firing points anyway even if you put the door exactly as pictured on page 116.

RAW, an Access Point is not a Fire Point. So you cannot "shoot through the door". You are misunderstanding the rules.

Heck, from a fluff perspective it wouldn't make sense to do so since the door of a bunker/bastion is supposed to be secured during combat. Can't do that if you left it open to fire out of.

 sudojoe wrote:
p18 - most places tend to agree that a vehicle that is 25% obscured will get 3+ cover from this purpose built fortified building.

Just a clarification here. An Imperial Bastion is a Medium Building according to its data sheet (meaning it can "transport" 20 models). There is no such thing as a "fortified building". Most people I know agree that it counts as a "Fortification" for Cover purposes even though the ADL itself does not. Since its supposed to be a purpose built bunker, like the Fortress of Redemption. Not everyone agrees with this however, so do not just assume your opponent things the same as you!

 cowmonaut wrote:
RAW, an Access Point is not a Fire Point. So you cannot "shoot through the door". You are misunderstanding the rules.

Heck, from a fluff perspective it wouldn't make sense to do so since the door of a bunker/bastion is supposed to be secured during combat. Can't do that if you left it open to fire out of.

He's not talking about the door. he's talking about the bottom sections that have an extra FP. There isn't an extra fire point on the door side, which is what he's saying.

I've played against plenty of bastions. Several folks that I game with seem to love them for reasons that no one can explain. I shoot them with Medusas, or multimeltas, or lascannons, or pummel them with meltabombs and meltaguns, or assault them with dreadnoughts.

Why? Because they're in the way. They're sheltering units that are impeding my path to victory, so to get at the gooey inside, I crack open the building. AV14's strength isn't the AV being high, it's the meta shifting away from the things that crack it open.

Bastions are counter-meta, but when you're planning for the counter-meta because you enjoy playing counter-meta armies and see how well they work

I'd be more than happy to let you crack my bastion while the rest of my units are eating your face.

Essentially you are then spending 75 points to turn a squad into an immobile AV14 vehicle at the cost of your emplacement slot.

So your ~220 point broadside team is now ~300 points. Then you throw a quad gun on it and stick a squad on top and its 450+ points. AV14 may be pretty tough, but not when its 450 points. This is the trap of the bastion. Sticking a lot of points into one and thinking its going to protect your units.

For a 6 flier list, sure, a bastion may be useful, but who plays a 6 flier list anymore? You arent playing for fun, because no one has fun vs 6 flier lists and most would refuse to play that. In tourney play 6 flier lists are a joke. IG flier spam sans FW lacks anti-horde. Cron saucer spam is entirely ineffective vs most MCs and still have problems vs tau. With FW thrown in both armies become significantly less threatening as skyfire becomes more common.

With the new eldar codex, you have even another problem. Try and see what happens when 5 D-scythe wraithguard flamer your 3 broadside bastion. 5d6 S4 AP2 Distort hits on them and 5 distort hits looking for 6s to pen the bastion. With the popular eldar list being 4+WS with 4+ squads of 5 man wraithguard with d-scythes, have fun castling up.

Then blast templates. Artillery love bastions. Not only do you hit the roof, but also the bastion. Since its not ruins, its 1 level so i dont have to worry about scattering off and not hurting anything. Now i can just shoot manticores at those people manning the quad gun and laugh as my Ord S10 pens and does a silly number of hits on the guys inside the bastion. One direct manticore hit and most of that 450 point bastion is gone.

 zephoid wrote:
Essentially you are then spending 75 points to turn a squad into an immobile AV14 vehicle at the cost of your emplacement slot.

So your ~220 point broadside team is now ~300 points. Then you throw a quad gun on it and stick a squad on top and its 450+ points. AV14 may be pretty tough, but not when its 450 points. This is the trap of the bastion. Sticking a lot of points into one and thinking its going to protect your units.

Wow. This is just hinky thinking. You're paying 125 for a Bastion and Quad-gun. Your broadsides aren't required to stay in it or even to deploy in it. The Bastion is just an immobile AV14 building. Your broadsides are largely immune to shooting until the bastion is gone (largely). You can also JSJ a crisis commander from the bottom to the top each turn to mess with folks. It is not the worst thing in the world.

Then blast templates. Artillery love bastions. Not only do you hit the roof, but also the bastion. Since its not ruins, its 1 level so i dont have to worry about scattering off and not hurting anything. Now i can just shoot manticores at those people manning the quad gun and laugh as my Ord S10 pens and does a silly number of hits on the guys inside the bastion. One direct manticore hit and most of that 450 point bastion is gone.

You can still scatter off a bastion.

75 points plus whatever weapon i throw on it for 10-25 is another small unit of___________fill in the blank.

Plus i just really havent needed it. When 6th just came out i used the skyshield pad with my daemons because it was a guaranteed not scatter death. getting rid of the icons actually paid for the pad so it was perfect.

Otherwise i dont much use any of em anymore. and the fortress has pretty much been banned from every tourney ive been to.

Fortress gets banned because of perceived size. Most TOs that ban it do so because they think it is just too annoying to deal with from a terrain setup standpoint.

 pretre wrote:

Wow. This is just hinky thinking. You're paying 125 for a Bastion and Quad-gun. Your broadsides aren't required to stay in it or even to deploy in it. The Bastion is just an immobile AV14 building. Your broadsides are largely immune to shooting until the bastion is gone (largely). You can also JSJ a crisis commander from the bottom to the top each turn to mess with folks. It is not the worst thing in the world.


You can still scatter off a bastion.

A previous poster was saying that was his main use for it. To protect it from the fire you say they are immune to. While they arent required to stay in it, what is the point of taking the bastion if you arent using it to protect anything? For the cost of the bastion you can take 2 more missile broadsides.

A commander plus escort would probably need 8-9" to jump up and down every turn since the bastion is 6" high and they need to clear their bases from the bastion.

 pretre wrote:
I'd be more than happy to let you crack my bastion while the rest of my units are eating your face.

My issue with that kind of thinking is that it assumes that what's in the bastion is also not worth attacking. If you've got a bastion with a squad inside and one on top that's 400+ points of goodies. And while AV14 is about as good as it gets, if someone does get a shot at it, the damage table is basically a fancy way of converting anti-tank weapons into anti-infantry. (Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

I guess, you're not seeing that sort of thing happening in real game situations, but the idea alone is enough to scare me off of using bastions.

Amerikon wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I'd be more than happy to let you crack my bastion while the rest of my units are eating your face.

My issue with that kind of thinking is that it assumes that what's in the bastion is also not worth attacking. If you've got a bastion with a squad inside and one on top that's 400+ points of goodies. And while AV14 is about as good as it gets, if someone does get a shot at it, the damage table is basically a fancy way of converting anti-tank weapons into anti-infantry. (Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Sure, sure, it's 400 points. Most of that is a sisters squad on top babysitting a icarus that exits for the objective. They are about the least scary unit in my army. The retributors probably get shut down for a turn or permanently. Neither of those squads are my big hitters though and you may have a point advantage, but definitely not a strategic one.

I guess, you're not seeing that sort of thing happening in real game situations, but the idea alone is enough to scare me off of using bastions.

A lot of things CAN happen that don't most of the time. The bastion just gives me a nice piece of cover, some elevation and 2 extra heavy bolters. It is certainly not the lynchpin of my list. If someone treats it as such, I would be delighted.

 zephoid wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Wow. This is just hinky thinking. You're paying 125 for a Bastion and Quad-gun. Your broadsides aren't required to stay in it or even to deploy in it. The Bastion is just an immobile AV14 building. Your broadsides are largely immune to shooting until the bastion is gone (largely). You can also JSJ a crisis commander from the bottom to the top each turn to mess with folks. It is not the worst thing in the world.


You can still scatter off a bastion.

A previous poster was saying that was his main use for it. To protect it from the fire you say they are immune to. While they arent required to stay in it, what is the point of taking the bastion if you arent using it to protect anything? For the cost of the bastion you can take 2 more missile broadsides.

A commander plus escort would probably need 8-9" to jump up and down every turn since the bastion is 6" high and they need to clear their bases from the bastion.

I can't bring more than 1 squad of Missilesides with Tau allies, and I already have a 3-man squad. Shrug. Most Str 6/7/8 fire always goes to Broadsides while the typical Str 8/9/10 anti-tank goes to my three MCs bearing down on you. This creates a switch in targeting priorities if they want to take out my Broadsides now. Jetpacks also ignore the height requirement. For 75 points the Bastion is a steal for my purposes. I don't take any guns on it because I have 8 Pathfinders sitting on the top. I don't need an ADL because I have a Techmarine that turns another piece of Ruins into 3+ cover save, which is already better than your ADL.

Good luck getting your Wraithguards close enough to do that. It'll take you on average 2 to 3 turns to get in range (Assuming Wave Serpent transport) to be able to do that if I know you have WG with D-scythes in your army. Then again, how many armies can claim to reliably beat the MechDar Wave Serpent + Wraithguard spam list? And how many people actually play artillery in their IG force anymore?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

I guess, you're not seeing that sort of thing happening in real game situations, but the idea alone is enough to scare me off of using bastions.

A lot of things CAN happen that don't most of the time. The bastion just gives me a nice piece of cover, some elevation and 2 extra heavy bolters. It is certainly not the lynchpin of my list. If someone treats it as such, I would be delighted.

This too applies to my list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

Biggest risk to inside units is probably grenade spam.
Basic Tac Squads get what, 10D6 S4 hits? Ouch...

One benefit of the bastion is that it allows you to skimp on your troops to bring more guns elsewhere. Stick cultists or min sized squad inside and then hoof it to an objective on your side of the board toward the end of the game. For 75 points you just bought immunity from heldrakes and weapons that people bring to kill infantry. Not a bad deal.

Also, it can be a good foundation for a firebase. You can put artillery behind it to pummel your opponent out of line of sight. Units that have an assault move can also use it as a reliable piece of terrain to hide behind after unloading in the shooting phase.

Plus shooting at the bastion from long range is not a guaranteed to net you results. A manticore will only get a pen 1/3 of the time. Lascannons need a 6 to pen it. Plus, if you're unloading manticore shots and lascannons at the bastion, the actual heavy hitters in a list remain unscathed.

 minigun762 wrote:
Biggest risk to inside units is probably grenade spam.
Basic Tac Squads get what, 10D6 S4 hits? Ouch...

If there's a tac squad assaulting your bastion, you probably have bigger problems...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bogalubov wrote:
For 75 points you just bought immunity from heldrakes and weapons that people bring to kill infantry. Not a bad deal.

No. Heldrakes still flame the bastion and get D6 hits on the unit inside if it touches a fire point.

Also, it can be a good foundation for a firebase. You can put artillery behind it to pummel your opponent out of line of sight. Units that have an assault move can also use it as a reliable piece of terrain to hide behind after unloading in the shooting phase.

Plus shooting at the bastion from long range is not a guaranteed to net you results. A manticore will only get a pen 1/3 of the time. Lascannons need a 6 to pen it. Plus, if you're unloading manticore shots and lascannons at the bastion, the actual heavy hitters in a list remain unscathed.

This is all correct though.

Personally, one day, I want at least one of each Fortification.
And of course, the I'd want to use them!

I can see how the Bastion is useful (improves line of sight for units in / on it, blocks line of sight for things in / behind it, AV14 is pretty hardy), and of course its drawbacks (immobile, potential for high damage if destroyed), but I think the pros outweigh the cons.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

I actually didn't realize that Broadside's lost their S10. But that wasn't the point at all. The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

Also, your math is a little off. Because of AP1, 2 of the possible damage results will end up causing 2D6 hits, and 2 other possible damage results will end up causing 4D6 hits. So a single Rail shot will have an 11% chance (1/9) of causing at least 2D6 hits. But again, that's completely not the point.

Amerikon wrote:
The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

In exchange, a lot of things that could hurt the broadsides can't anymore. And all that high S, low AP fire going into the Bastion is not going into your vehicles.

Another issue with a bastion is the increase in MCs. S10 smash attacks will do a number on a bastion fairly quickly.

Amerikon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

I actually didn't realize that Broadside's lost their S10. But that wasn't the point at all. The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

Also, your math is a little off. Because of AP1, 2 of the possible damage results will end up causing 2D6 hits, and 2 other possible damage results will end up causing 4D6 hits. So a single Rail shot will have an 11% chance (1/9) of causing at least 2D6 hits. But again, that's completely not the point.

It's only off marginally, partly because I forgot about the AP bonus and I was only calculating the statistical chances of 2d6 hits. Only result 4, 6, and 7 are relevant to us. Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW). You're looking more at 8%. Prior to this I was only looking at the 2d6 hits. In any case, 8% is tiny. You have a statistically higher chance of one-shotting a Riptide with a Wraithknight's Heavy D-Cannon. It's tiny. If anyone brings a Hammerhead, they won't bring more than one because Missilesides are typically too good to pass up on. If MCs are in your face with Str 10 smash attacks, you're not deploying right.

Mathhammering the wounds onto a Broadside squad inside:
2d6: 7 wounds average dealth
Str 6 vs T4: 5.83 wounds suffered
2+ Save: 0.97 wounds taken

No broadsides are killed (2 wounds apiece). If you do roll 4d6, it's only one broadside dead.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW).

I know that may be RAW, but seems a silly argument since no one would ever play it that way.

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

Amerikon wrote:
(Oh look, that railgun just did 2d6 hits each on two different units!)

Let's mathhammer this. I'll assume you're talking about a Tau Hammerhead with Railgun, since Broadsides can't pen it, and you can't glance a building to death either.

BS3: 0.50 hits
Str 10 vs. AV14: 0.167 chance to pen
Chance for 2d6 hits: 0.0238

That's a 2.38% chance of your Tau Hammerhead pen'ing that Bastion to deal 2d6 Str 6 hits to the guys inside. It goes up only marginally with Longstrike. If you're going to Markerlight my Bastion, I'll laugh at the waste of Markerlights.

I actually didn't realize that Broadside's lost their S10. But that wasn't the point at all. The point was that a weapon that can normally only damage one thing now has the capability to damage a lot of things. That might not be a very good argument, but it makes me nervous.

Also, your math is a little off. Because of AP1, 2 of the possible damage results will end up causing 2D6 hits, and 2 other possible damage results will end up causing 4D6 hits. So a single Rail shot will have an 11% chance (1/9) of causing at least 2D6 hits. But again, that's completely not the point.

It's only off marginally, partly because I forgot about the AP bonus and I was only calculating the statistical chances of 2d6 hits. Only result 4, 6, and 7 are relevant to us. Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW). You're looking more at 8%. Prior to this I was only looking at the 2d6 hits. In any case, 8% is tiny. You have a statistically higher chance of one-shotting a Riptide with a Wraithknight's Heavy D-Cannon. It's tiny. If anyone brings a Hammerhead, they won't bring more than one because Missilesides are typically too good to pass up on. If MCs are in your face with Str 10 smash attacks, you're not deploying right.

Mathhammering the wounds onto a Broadside squad inside:
2d6: 7 wounds average dealth
Str 6 vs T4: 5.83 wounds suffered
2+ Save: 0.97 wounds taken

No broadsides are killed (2 wounds apiece). If you do roll 4d6, it's only one broadside dead.

The standard Vehicle Damage chart doesn't state 6+ either, so are you really trying to say that if you roll a 6 with AP2 (making it 7), or 5/6 with AP1 (making it 7/8) nothing happens?
It's quite obvious that if it rolls equal to, or higher, than the highest result, equate to the highest result happening.

Regardless of that one point or not, you're looking in the figure of 11% chance from a Hammerhead gunship, which probably has better things to shoot at than a Bastion.

Those complaining about the cost of the Imperial Bastion are not thinking clearly. If you are considering a Bastion, you are wanting a fortification. The real choice is between an ADl and Bastion. The Bastion is 25 points more than the ADL, but what are the other trade offs? That is what you need to be asking yourself.

Hint: The answer is different depending on the Army you play and the List you bring.

I agree that there isn't value in blasting the bastion at range with standard AT weapons. Being immune to glances also removes any real fear of S8. This means you're primarily concern is close range assault forces who either bring down the building with Melta or Chainfists or kill off the occupants with massed templates and grenades.

Many who condemn that bastion are looking at the Bastion by itself.. why?
Treat it like a vehicle and ask: Who brings only one ground vehicle?
Few, because it draws all the anti-tank weapons and gets popped after a turn or two.

The same applies to the bastion. Using the bastion as one member in a plethora of armour makes sense, using one without any other armour or MCs on the board of higher or comparable priority makes little sense except for those specific uses earlier mentioned (as LOS blocking).

As for its value, if its filled with valuable or powerful units, its an attractive target and that makes it very similar to a transport being used as a gun wagons. If you think transports as protection from small arms is worthwhile, the Bastion fills a similar role.

I think the ADL and the skyshield for protection are better, but there are increasing ways to ignore cover and I am seeing little in the way of anti-multiple AV14 so I feel the Bastion can work in mid/high AV lists.

I play mechanized Orks, and I use a bastion at 1500.
If I switch to horde foot, I will never use one.
I might even dump it at 2k, but at that point I would do so because I want more armour moving forward.


In the end, like many other units in 40k, the usefulness and value of the Bastion is dependant on the rest of your army.

I got around to playing my Bastion-included GK+Tau list today. I saw 3 Broadsides in it with Pathfinders on the roof while Coteaz took another squad and sat in Techmarine-buffed ruins with a Servitor/Jokaero squad.

Needless to say, I had neigh-on-unkillable shooting platforms. My Bastion was only destroyed after two Melta shots on Turn 4 when his Stormraven finally got in range. By that point in time my Bastion, which allowed me to better position my Broadsides and Pathfinders, had wiped out my opponent's GKSS, GKT, Dreadknight, and Purgation squads. The Broadsides took 1 wound despite suffering 2d6 and then 4d6 Str 6 hits, and after disembarking, promptly shot down the offending Stormraven.

All this firepower going into the Bastion basically left Coteaz's squad free to drop multiple Servoskull-buffed, Prescience'd Plasma Cannons and Lascannon shots on the rest of his army. I also had 2 Dreadknights and 1 Riptide advancing up his front. The devastating alpha-strike by my Broadsides made them such a credible threat that he just tried to focus them down while ignoring my other units.

Needlesstosay, target saturation ALWAYS works.

Stepping back, I'm happy that the Bastion is finally being discussed and not outright dismissed.

I see value in it for the right army, but unlike the ADL, I don't think its something that can just be tossed into a list.

 minigun762 wrote:
Stepping back, I'm happy that the Bastion is finally being discussed and not outright dismissed.

I see value in it for the right army, but unlike the ADL, I don't think its something that can just be tossed into a list.

I do agree with you. Not every army needs or should have a Bastion, but it's definitely fitting in some armies that would benefit well from it. I'm currently thinking single-squads of high-value, heavy damage-outputting squads that would normally attract a fethstorm of fire, i.e. the one Broadside squad in a Tau allies list.

Bastion? Bah, pansies, go the manly route and use the fortress of Redemption/Tomb Citadel.

I'm going to give it a try in a 1500 pt list with ig/gk this weekend. Gonna put the css on top to man the quad gun and stick a infantry squad inside to man the guns/shoot their autocannon

Kain wrote:Bastion? Bah, pansies, go the manly route and use the fortress of Redemption/Tomb Citadel.

Fortress sure, I want one at some point for Tau / Sisters / Adeptus Orthodontus / GK Monkey Army / things with GK Monkey Allies.

The Tomb Citadel, while nice (and super crazy wtfery for crons), is a 2x2 table sections, and will cost you around £150 to set up 'properly'....

At the end of the day though, every Fortification has its pros and cons, and apply to different situations - even the new Wall of Martyrs stuff will too.

Aegis Defence Line:
Pros:
Cheap (50pts base)
It's good for gunlines, giving lots of garunteed cover at deployment, where you want it and bringing some nice toys (Lascannon or Quadgun) or a Comms Relay,
Cons:
Cover can be negated (and moreso than ever these days), only works from one direction, or a significant portion of the line must be used to provide defence from the rear.

Skyshield:
Pros:
Good for Deepstrikers (no scatter when landing on) and makes a decent firepoint, (provides 4+*)
Cons:
Models on it are still vunerable to shooting and assaults. Can't use the no-scatter and invun save effects at the same time ( must choose each turn)

Bastion:
Pros:
AV14 bunker, good firepoint for 1-3 infantry units, blocks LoS to models inside, and behind (good for deployment shenanigans)
Cons:
Immobile vehicle. Vunerable to anti-tank weapons, which can in turn hurt models inside (though nullifies AP).

Fortress of Redemption:
Pros:
Massive quad AV14 bunker + tower, includes some nasty weapons, and makes a good firepoint, and large los blocking for deployment. can contain up to 6+ units
Cons:
It is a LARGE model, taking up a good portion of your deployment zone, with a high points cost (220pts base - almost 300pts kitted out) plus the same negatives as Bastion.

Tomb Citadel: (Based on what I've been told by a cron player)
Pros:
HUGE fortification (2x2 board), consisting of:
AV14 Ziggurat that can 'dock' 1 Monolith or Pylon, which gain +1Str to all weapons. Has a Scarab Hive and Eternity Gate.
AV14 Power Crucible provides every necron model on the 2x2 section with a 3+* against shooting, and reroll 1's on failed Ressurection Protocol rolls.
May take 0-2 weapon turrets (Gauss Exterminators or Tesla Destructors, both with Interceptor + Skyfire), and can take a Comm Relay.
Enemies Deepstriking onto it mishap on any rolls of a double when scattering.
Cons:
Ridiculously sized piece (2 foot by 2 foot - what were forgeworld thinking!)
Massive points cost (300base, 500-600+ kitted out, potentially up to 1000pts with a docked unit.).
Special rules can be negated by damage rolls of a 5+ against the relevant building.
Moving onto and off of is Difficult Terrain.

The pros and cons of the Wall of Martyrs subsections remain to be seen.

I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

My friend is building one. -_-

 Ovion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

My friend is building one. -_-

Building one, sure, is he intending to field one?

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Ovion wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

My friend is building one. -_-

Building one, sure, is he intending to field one?

He wouldn't take the time to scratchbuild it if he didn't intend to field it.
Possibly mostly for his home table, but I can see him being crazy enough to take it somewhere.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Stepping back, I'm happy that the Bastion is finally being discussed and not outright dismissed.

I see value in it for the right army, but unlike the ADL, I don't think its something that can just be tossed into a list.

I do agree with you. Not every army needs or should have a Bastion, but it's definitely fitting in some armies that would benefit well from it. I'm currently thinking single-squads of high-value, heavy damage-outputting squads that would normally attract a fethstorm of fire, i.e. the one Broadside squad in a Tau allies list.

Agreed here as well, I would never dream of taking the Bastion in my Eldar army (least of all because I would have to build an Eldar one, it wouldn't sit right in my mind to use the Imperial one with anything but the Imperium) it's just not as good an option. In my GK army, however, it fills my playstyle quite nicely.

 sudojoe wrote:
Given the amount of cover save stripping powers, having completely blocked LOS is often more important and just a good cover save. I've used this to be as far forward as possible in my deployment zone as FMC daemons before just so I can guarantee that I can start on the board and have nothing being able to target me as I'll be deploying them quite far forward as possible. Hiding the portaglyph is also very useful in this scenario. It's like taking fateweaver. It takes some of the random out of chaos daemons and that makes them more consistently good.

P93 last paragraph- you can just leave the building as a nice LOS blocker that's essentially invulnerable as it cannot be attacked so it can't be targeted at all (though you can still scatter into it)

I'm a big fan of the Bastion as well. The local tournaments I sometimes play at are inconsistent with terrain. Some tables are packed, others might have a couple of trees. I primarily play a Tzeentch Flying Circus Daemon list, and having the LOS blocking terrain to start behind is a huge help. Also, I usually put the Grimoire of True Names on a Herald and stick him in the Bastion with a big squad of pink horrors. He died to0 fast behind an ADL, or was just too vulnerable to Ignore Cover. And even if the bastion is destroyed, I've never had the Herald die to the wounds caused by the collapse / explosion, and the bastion stays on the board as impassable terrain, so it's still of use after they blow it up.

 sudojoe wrote:
Each firing point allows 2 models to shoot through -p 93. You can have a squad of 4 devestators all shooting their weapons through even sides with just 2 firing points and can have the sergeant shooting the emplaced heavy bolter.

The horrors only need one model to manifest the psychic power to get all shots possible. So for me, I only need one fire point to enable the herald and the Horror squad to make full use of their shooting. I also generally put an Icarus Lascannon on the roof and man it with BS5 Bloodletters, although I'm considering putting Shrouded Plaugebearers up there, as I can hit them with Prescience from the Herald during turn 1 when nothing is in range of Tzeentch shooting powers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW).

So you're saying that if you shoot an AP1 weapon at an open-topped vehicle, roll a penetrating hit and then on the damage chart roll a 6, which would be +3 (from AP and OT) totaling 9, that would be a voided result?

 ashikenshin wrote:
I'm going to give it a try in a 1500 pt list with ig/gk this weekend. Gonna put the css on top to man the quad gun and stick a infantry squad inside to man the guns/shoot their autocannon

I'm looking forward to hearing how it performs.

My first instinct is that a Guardsmen are too fragile to survive many of the D6 collapse results without taking significant losses.

 minigun762 wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
I'm going to give it a try in a 1500 pt list with ig/gk this weekend. Gonna put the css on top to man the quad gun and stick a infantry squad inside to man the guns/shoot their autocannon

I'm looking forward to hearing how it performs.

My first instinct is that a Guardsmen are too fragile to survive many of the D6 collapse results without taking significant losses.

Ditto here. I think Broadsides are the most perfect for sticking in a Bastion. T4, 2 wounds each (and being inside a building, you can do wound-allocation shenanigans with them) with 2+ armor save and either range 36" or 60" primary weapons. Makes them virtually impossible to dislodge unless you shoot enough at it.

 undertow wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Since result 7 is not "7+", rolling a 6 will void that roll (6+2=8, there is no 8 on the table RAW).

So you're saying that if you shoot an AP1 weapon at an open-topped vehicle, roll a penetrating hit and then on the damage chart roll a 6, which would be +3 (from AP and OT) totaling 9, that would be a voided result?

If he is, he's wrong.

You can't wreak an aegis defence line .

Ok, I played 4 games with the bastion and here is my experience with it.

I won 3 out of the 4 games and in only one game one guy attempted to assault it. The rest they ignored the bastion to their own peril. The bastion made the quad gun on top had a clear view of most of the battlefield and we had a densely packed terrain table.

The first game was against orks, I was using 1500 points of tau and ig allies to bring a vendetta. My list wasn't that great but the bastion made sure my ccs and a squad of veterans inside lasted the whole game. A squad of koptas tried to assault it but the veteran squad inside obliterated them before they could.

Second game I was using chaos space marines vs necrons, I almost tabled the guy but I got cocky and didn't score an objective, he was standing in one with his only troop and the game ended on turn 4, he won by one point :( the bastion alone killed most of his troops and a unit of necron bikes.

Third game same chaos list against tau, totally destroyed him without him having a chance to shoot once at the bastion. The quad gun managed to destroy his flyer the turn it came in.

Fourth game same chaos list against tyranid, bastion killed a unit of gaunts and put 3 wounds on his guard, my daemon prince and helldrake killed the rest.

Overall I'm really happy with the bastion with the lists I made for it. In 1000 points it just gave me a huge advantage, in 1500 the advantage wasn't that great but still it kept my units inside safe for the whole game. I think it behaved like a better version of a predator with av14, really cool.

Good report!
Do you think you're opponents will be more prepared for it next time?

i see 3 issues with it:

1) Base size. Often it might be hard to place it without making it hug a board edge.
2) Top level size. I play either hordy orks or big based tau. Neither can fit up there lol. Crisis suits should never be up there, kroot are suppose to be infiltrating to clog up the midzone, and riptide/broadsides are too big. Yea firewarriors can go up there...but then theres #3 issue..
3) IT GO BOOM! Face it, AV14 is pretty damn easy to take out when its one HP and pretty much anything you do to it is catastrophic to those on top...aside from chipping off the paint of course because you failed the pen roll.

The ADL may not have the benefit of elevation or the benefit of being impossible to charge unless using jump/jet packs, but it doesnt go boom. A single high strength shot can lay waste to not only your ~130 or whatever it is building, but the 100-300pts of dudes on top since they basically just go away...be surprised if any of them survived let alone enough to be a threat.

I wanted to use it, because its elevated sight removes my loota line of sight issues on most terrains and without a S9-10 table-long shot, its not that likely to explode or crumble the first couple of turns. However, i cant fit a group of 8-10 lootas up there unless i dont have the gun.....and even if i DO put them up there suddenly "A Wild Pi Plate Has Appeared! It Ignores Cover!" even without the ignores cover, it is devastating.

With the sky shield meaning no scatter for deep striking units, is that both sides? i.e. could my enemy deep strike his termies or drop pod on it without a scatter?

Sticking things like 2 Broadsides with an Ignore Cover naked Commander in a Bastion is great fun and a good way to make a solid firebase. If anything, it sucks up a disgusting amount of incoming fire.

Also, putting Telion with the Icarus Lascannon in top is usually hysterical. Admittedly, you can do this with an ADL as well.

 minigun762 wrote:
Good report!
Do you think you're opponents will be more prepared for it next time?

Yeah, they are going to include something else to deal with av14. In our group there is only one guy with a land raider and two guys with a monolith. The monoliths have seen a lot more games than the land raider so everyone just ignores them. Anti tank here is just meant for transports and av 12-. I will try to bring it to more games to see if it's performance wasn't just luck. It will be harder now that they know how to deal with it.

You can't put a commander in a bastion he's jet pack

 ashikenshin wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
Good report!
Do you think you're opponents will be more prepared for it next time?

Yeah, they are going to include something else to deal with av14. In our group there is only one guy with a land raider and two guys with a monolith. The monoliths have seen a lot more games than the land raider so everyone just ignores them. Anti tank here is just meant for transports and av 12-. I will try to bring it to more games to see if it's performance wasn't just luck. It will be harder now that they know how to deal with it.

Glad to hear you're preparing for their changing game plans.

Keep reporting back if you can, letting us know how the meta is changing for you.

3) IT GO BOOM! Face it, AV14 is pretty damn easy to take out when its one HP and pretty much anything you do to it is catastrophic to those on top...aside from chipping off the paint of course because you failed the pen roll.

Actually a bastion has no hullpoints and it's actually somewhat rare to get it to go boom from many games I've played with it as long as your list is actually built to make use of it. (I.e. sure, waste your shots shooting the thing but those shots are then not going into my more expensive vehicles like my artillery that is parked behind it. To get into melta range, I'll be able to retialiate with quite a lot of fire power.

Unlike a land raider, you can't glance this thing to death. Heck, even if it's too damaged to be occupied, I can still use it to block LOS which is worth quite a lot of the points I paid for it.

Yeah, that's kinda what happened in my games. They wasted a unit going after it while my daemon prince, predator, helldrake and juggylord destroyed everything else, the following games not a shot was fired to my bastion.

I've had good results so far with my Bastion. It usually isn't destroyed, and even when it is, I've never had the unit inside (or on top) get wiped out as a result. I deploy it with the door facing away from my enemy, so when the Pink Horrors I place inside have to disembark, they're still out of LOS.

I can't imagine using a bastion. In the rare event there is a building of any sort on the table people avoid it like the plague, because they are all deathtraps against anyone with grenades (most people) or flamer template attacks (many people). Much of the time you're better off standing in the open.

From the posts here it sounds like you guys take the bastion and have the opponent spend a lot of time shooting at it... I would be surprised to see many people make that mistake in a competitive event.

Daeghrefn wrote:
I can't imagine using a bastion. In the rare event there is a building of any sort on the table people avoid it like the plague, because they are all deathtraps against anyone with grenades (most people) or flamer template attacks (many people). Much of the time you're better off standing in the open.

From the posts here it sounds like you guys take the bastion and have the opponent spend a lot of time shooting at it... I would be surprised to see many people make that mistake in a competitive event.

If you place it in your deployment zone, why are you letting folks with grenades and flamers get to it?

Daeghrefn wrote:
I can't imagine using a bastion. In the rare event there is a building of any sort on the table people avoid it like the plague, because they are all deathtraps against anyone with grenades (most people) or flamer template attacks (many people). Much of the time you're better off standing in the open.

From the posts here it sounds like you guys take the bastion and have the opponent spend a lot of time shooting at it... I would be surprised to see many people make that mistake in a competitive event.

In my case (I run a Tzeentch Daemon Flying Circus), I have a Herald with a Grimoire sitting in the bastion, along with a large squad of Pink Horrors. Anything that gets close to it gets sprayed with a ton of S6, twin-linked (prescience) shooting.

If they're not shooting the Bastion, I'm ok with that since it means my Grimoire is safe.

If they're shooting the Bastion that's also ok, since it means they're not shooting at my FMCs.

Either way, it's been a solid addition to my lists. When I put the Grimoire bearing unit behind an ADL or in terrain they tend to get wiped out in assault or by Ignore Cover weapons. If I put the Grimoire on a Daemon Prince I wind up having to play that one more conservatively than I like so he doesn't die and I can't project as much force into my opponent's deployment zone.

I think in a list with high threat saturation as it is, the Bastion makes another excellent addition for cheap points cost with the capability to make glass cannon units very durable.

In the given examples we've seen so far, anti-tank weapons are forced to either shoot the Bastion or tough (F)MCs, or used as a distraction/LOS blocker for artillery. With a glass cannon unit inside, it forces your opponent to either deal with it and be distracted from the rest of your army, or ignore it and take deadly amounts of firepower each turn.

Again, with me putting Broadsides inside, I laugh at attempts to flame or grenade them out.

 cowmonaut wrote:

 sudojoe wrote:
P95 - you can actually have a ladder or the like on the side of the building. It will allow access to the roof without going through the inside (fist column 5th paragraph down)

The Imperial Bastion model does not come with an external Ladder. Adding one would be modeling for advantage and is against the rules. So no, you aren't "saved" by anything on Page 95.

 sudojoe wrote:
P 116 - there's actually 3 firing points possible on 2 of the sides and 1 to 0 based on where you place the door. It's 2 on the mid level and one on the bottom level that may or may not be covered by the door. There are no exact standards on which facing the door must be on. You can have one side with 3 firing points anyway even if you put the door exactly as pictured on page 116.

RAW, an Access Point is not a Fire Point. So you cannot "shoot through the door". You are misunderstanding the rules.

Heck, from a fluff perspective it wouldn't make sense to do so since the door of a bunker/bastion is supposed to be secured during combat. Can't do that if you left it open to fire out of.

 sudojoe wrote:
p18 - most places tend to agree that a vehicle that is 25% obscured will get 3+ cover from this purpose built fortified building.

Just a clarification here. An Imperial Bastion is a Medium Building according to its data sheet (meaning it can "transport" 20 models). There is no such thing as a "fortified building". Most people I know agree that it counts as a "Fortification" for Cover purposes even though the ADL itself does not. Since its supposed to be a purpose built bunker, like the Fortress of Redemption. Not everyone agrees with this however, so do not just assume your opponent things the same as you!

Modelling for advantage is against the rules? In what way, can you give me a page number in the BRB? I can see when that is a problem in the case of base sizes, for example, but I can't find any rules stopping you from adding a ladder to a bastion. In the case of bastions, the access points and firepoints are "as model", and the kit actually comes with 2 available access points to attach to the model (main door and the escape hatch, which you could feasibly attach instead of or as well as the main door). The escape hatch would leave you with an extra firepoint if you used that instead of the other door, and is included in the kit. Is that modelling for advantage? It seems to me that the wording of bastions allows you to modify them a bit, otherwise they would have stated "1 access point, and 1 fire point on each facing" for example.

The ADL doesn't cause d6 S10 (per model) hits when it "Detonantes" It's like wrapping your squishy models in a bomb with a target on it.
DrG

 Enigwolf wrote:
I can't imagine anyone actually fielding the Tomb Citadel and being serious outside of Apocalypse.

It is a tile for the realms of battle board.

 doktor_g wrote:
The ADL doesn't cause d6 S10 (per model) hits when it "Detonantes"

Neither does the Bastion.

 pretre wrote:

 doktor_g wrote:
The ADL doesn't cause d6 S10 (per model) hits when it "Detonantes"

Neither does the Bastion.

This. You might want to check your rule entry for that pen result again. Also, do the math-hammer on it, or look back a few pages, at how hard it is for a dedicated anti-tank unit to kill it.

How many models can you fit onto the roof of various base sizes?

Personally i dont think too highly of the possibility to "bring your own cover" in form of the fortifications, its a lovely idea but it could have done better and more interesting if the gametypes werent so damn monotone.

But personally as a Tau with a love for hammerheads, i am more drawn to the skyshield for a 4+ Invul for my hammerhead on top and then have another squad up there with him depending on the map, and you can hide under it to block LOS from pesky fliers.

The bastion is just a very high bunker, if you have a unit that you dont want to die for only 75 points, hell its worth it if you ask me, not everyone have the ability to bring AV14 to the table.

If I was looking to use the Relay, I think it might be safer on the top of the Bastion instead of behind the ADL.
That said, do you have to place the purchased gun or equipment on the roof?