The title says it all, with the current meta and codex's out there is just showing up with a 3+, hitting on 3's and T4 not cutting it anymore?

With the new codex's that have come out the amount of anti MEQ weapons is amazing, before these weapons were limited to "anti tank" weapons and plasma. Looking at eldar and tau, eldar have their quazi rending rule and tau...well are just tau.

In short my question is, is just being a marine enough now? Looking at the lists out there you dont see many power armor marines anymore, (dark angles have the cheapest maby besides chaos but im not sure on the chaos marine points) you only see bikes, terminators or a swarm of 4-5+ save models that are paying 5-4 points less for the same BS and WS and just missing out on the +1 toughness and armor save.

So thoughts?

Well, with the advent of bladestorm, Tau having an Ap3 str 8 blast and Monofilament rules that 3+ save isnt as good as it used to be

I think this is a great question. Honestly, I think GW is answering this very question with the DA release.

I'd be surprised if we see cost lowering across the board for bog-standard marines when the rest of the 6th ed codices come out.

In short: No, I don't think it's enough anymore -- but it's fun to see what kind of force multipliers we see added as a result. If the Dark Angels dakka banner is any indication, we could see some really fun new tweaks added when the new SM book comes out.

That 3+sv is still worth quite a bit, and T4 does still make quite a bit of difference vs T3. Most of those other units may also have BS4 and similar weapons, but they lack the resiliency, flexibility, range of targets they can engage, CC ability, Ld strength, etc that the Space Marines do.

That said nothing is "just" anymore, everything has special rules now, even putz basic guardsmen.

No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

The are putting out so many new units with awesome firepower that troops are just speed bumps, even the once venerated MEQ.

6th nullified transports (or so the meta says) but didn't exactly make bog standard troops more durable. It's the game of elites and HQs now.

ive been saying this for months now. marines are looking more and more gimped. power armour becomes more and more worthless.

little ninja stars craping on terminator armour is the dumbest thing ive heard of.

Yeah it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Players now are treating marines like guardsman. When I play SM players, and annhilate one of their squads, they just pull them off lazily and say 'oh they're just marines'. But I remember in earlier days and codexes, it explicately said 'a space marine force can't afford to lose many models, each one is precious'. So how did these superhuman soldiers, trained all their lives with enhanced genetics, become these expendable grunts? The rules basically adapted to where SM were the standard units, and every army adapted guns that could easily take them out, even if it's not very fluffy

I hate to be the one saying this, but could it be the fact that GW are trying to up sales away from space marines, in order to sell more stuff? 7th edition will have a marines rebirth

Reminds me of something a friend of mine does. He plays that one absurdly small elite grey knights army, then uses space marine tactical squad minis. He calls them "real space marines".

It's pretty obvious that being a marine is not "enough", but it's not that marines are bad, it's that they aren't worth their price, even at cheap CSM and DA prices because you can always spend your points on things that are better per point than marines.

I am going to wait for C:SM to come out before giving up hope on MEQ and running lame Scout armies.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Reminds me of something a friend of mine does. He plays that one absurdly small elite grey knights army, then uses space marine tactical squad minis. He calls them "real space marines".

. Draigowing? But yeah haha that's true

In terms of space marine fluff I agree with you 110%. For the galaxy's best warriors who have been fighting for hundreds or even thousands of years they die by the handfuls.

If you really want fluff marines look up the movie marine rules. Your basic trooper has an assault cannon for a bolter with T6 and a 3+ feel no pain they can always take. The rules are extremely outdated, but a few changes and you could start running a few games or even start a campain if you really want that space marine feel. The only problem it's not balanced at all (especially if the enemy has a lot of plasma) and if you try and make a movie marine captain you could end up with a 6-8W T6 model, but it'd cost 400 pts and could only move 6' a turn...

I agree, to a degree... ATKNF and Combat Tactics helps even more than it used to... SM players just need to be as wise as serpents... and use Rhinos and DPs. I am very careful with my marines, making sure they have cover (using those Rhinos and DPs as LoS blocking barriers) and giving their cover cover when needed (hello smoke launchers)... instead of treating them as invulnerable, I shepherd them around the battle field, and they pay me back by doing well.

That being said, they need something. Can't make them too much cheaper (and given the existing CSM and DA marines I don't think they'll drop by more than a point). Can't give them FNP or the like without crapping on CSM and DA... so here's the only routes I see for GW to keep PA worth it:

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad... or give them an upgrade that does the same (rumors of Apothecary Rhino are out there). Its survivability that Marines have lost, some sort of FNP seems to be the only way to bring it back... maybe via squad banners? Squad banners could add things like FNP, reroll armour saves, drop AP by 1, ignore cover etc... but I can't see it coming.

Another option might be to allow any model in a SM squad to pull a LOS! for any other model... (call it Brothers in Arms or the like) can keep special weapons and heavy weapons alive longer (some help).

There's not much else I can think of that seems plausible for them to do (slightly tougher rhinos, reroll armour saves, 3 points cheaper, better terminator armour saves... all possible, if it wasn't for the fact that DA and CSM codices tell us none of these things can happen).

There are rumors of dreads giving bonuses, but if they don't give increased lethality or durability to baseline marines, I don't think it will help enough.


...however, SM are still a ton of fun in club play and do well. Let's be honest, we all post like we play tourneys, but play almost all our games at the club/pick-up level... where marines still do just fine.

Eagleace115 wrote:
In terms of space marine fluff I agree with you 110%. For the galaxy's best warriors who have been fighting for hundreds or even thousands of years they die by the handfuls.

If you really want fluff marines look up the movie marine rules. Your basic trooper has an assault cannon for a bolter with T6 and a 3+ feel no pain they can always take.

No, the movie marines are not closer to "real" marines, their rules are just that, movie marines, complete with stunt doubles and the like, even GW said they're not supposed to be more "realistic" marines. This is just something that people have run with when they don't feel their Marines are awesome enough.

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

The annihilation barge is hardly a supreme MEQ killing weapon, it's a good general anti-infantry weapon, and a great light anti tank weapon, but methinks there's an exaggeration here, an annihilation barge on average is putting out 1.29 wounds on a MEQ unit, even if it gets its full complement of 12 Tesla shots, it's averaging 3.33 wounds. Hardly a stupendous Marine killing machine.



Really, I play a Marine army on a fairly routine basis and don't find anything particularly wrong with the marines themselves (the CSM book as a whole is a different story). Marines as is are still very hardy, especially relative to older editions. Most people don't remember 2E, where a heavy bolter forced a Marine to save on a 6 instead of a 3 and did D4 wounds if the model failed its save, or the original Rogue Trader where Marines were T3 and only saved on 5+ against Lasguns. Or 15pt Marines with no special rules but ATSKNF and no wargear but a bolter (no pistol, no CCW, no grenades, no combat tactics, no VotLW, etc).

Clearly the basic marine should easy mode every other army and having the best overall stat line in the game combined with the best army wide armor saves is clearly not good enough so to make it so the basic marine rolls because god forbid other races be able to hurt them without having to throw 2-3 times the points at a tactical squad.

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad... or give them an upgrade that does the same (rumors of Apothecary Rhino are out there). Its survivability that Marines have lost, some sort of FNP seems to be the only way to bring it back... maybe via squad banners? Squad banners could add things like FNP, reroll armour saves, drop AP by 1, ignore cover etc... but I can't see it coming.

Except that craps all over Noise Marines and Plague Marines, and craps all over CSM in general because we've got two horrid banners to begin with (Soulblaze and FEAR)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad... or give them an upgrade that does the same (rumors of Apothecary Rhino are out there). Its survivability that Marines have lost, some sort of FNP seems to be the only way to bring it back... maybe via squad banners? Squad banners could add things like FNP, reroll armour saves, drop AP by 1, ignore cover etc... but I can't see it coming.

Except that craps all over Noise Marines and Plague Marines, and craps all over CSM in general because we've got two horrid banners to begin with (Soulblaze and FEAR)

Sorry to say it, but in all likelihood, the c:sm book will crapp all over the face and even into the mouth of CSM. Even DA managed a fancier 6th ed setup than chaos, and that book is kinda crap

 Lobukia wrote:

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad...

You mean like BA?

If that happens, expect to see a lot of red angel Space Marines.

Lucarikx

Does no-one remember the last dark angel codex? It was released before the last space marine codex, and was awful by comparison.

History could repeat and see codex marines be massively better than anything else.

Dark angels have long been the pre marine test bed.

Boniface wrote:
Does no-one remember the last dark angel codex? It was released before the last space marine codex, and was awful by comparison.

History could repeat and see codex marines be massively better than anything else.

Dark angels have long been the pre marine test bed.

That's what they get for being the 1st Legion. 13 is such a better number.

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

The are putting out so many new units with awesome firepower that troops are just speed bumps, even the once venerated MEQ.

6th nullified transports (or so the meta says) but didn't exactly make bog standard troops more durable. It's the game of elites and HQs now.

I would love to know how he managed to to get AP2 on his AB's weapons. It's the only possible way I can think of for that to happen.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Or 15pt Marines with no special rules but ATSKNF and no wargear but a bolter (no pistol, no CCW, no grenades, no combat tactics, no VotLW, etc).

Luxury! 15 PPM is a steal!

 Lobukia wrote:
I agree, to a degree... ATKNF and Combat Tactics helps even more than it used to... SM players just need to be as wise as serpents... and use Rhinos and DPs. I am very careful with my marines, making sure they have cover (using those Rhinos and DPs as LoS blocking barriers) and giving their cover cover when needed (hello smoke launchers)... instead of treating them as invulnerable, I shepherd them around the battle field, and they pay me back by doing well.

Don't Drop Pods allow line of sight to pass through them?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I agree, to a degree... ATKNF and Combat Tactics helps even more than it used to... SM players just need to be as wise as serpents... and use Rhinos and DPs. I am very careful with my marines, making sure they have cover (using those Rhinos and DPs as LoS blocking barriers) and giving their cover cover when needed (hello smoke launchers)... instead of treating them as invulnerable, I shepherd them around the battle field, and they pay me back by doing well.

Don't Drop Pods allow line of sight to pass through them?

Depends on whether you model them with doors open or closed (and let's not argue the legality of that again, that thread has only been dead for around a month or so).

Its quite noticeable how marines in general have dropped in their overall 'oomph' factor. But lets face it 6th ed threw things all over the place anyway, in 5th it was far simpler and marines did rather well.

Take the regularly cursed chaos marines... ok so they have 'problems' but i have no trouble with them nor does the ace chaos player at my club. And cult troops are a rarity these days due to the simple fact that more bodies on the field backing up the heavy support/ Heldrakes works far more effectivley with a bit of care when playing. However i will stress that is what I have come across in my club environment.

I think we also must factor in the fact that now more different styles of list are viable, there is a greater scope for 'bad' matchups. As most armies in 5th were meched up the troops tended to be protected until transports started to get killed, now as people are taking footslogging troops they are opening themselves up to being more vulnerable even in cover and with marines this makes their lower numbers a problem.

Marines are still rather good, though they are being shifted to a position where they are similar to the other 40k amries, though they still will be newbies first port of call, they might be in for a shock

I think being a marine is still plenty, the basic marine is still one of the toughest basic troopers in the game with solid stats across the board, immunity to sweeping advances, access to special weapons to handle any target and a respectable basic weapon.

Multi-kill guns have tended to get shoehorned into AP4 or less to balance for marines but finally with the Eldar dex GW have finally dared to say "Here is a faction where marines are a bad matchup" they have dared to say that the prodigal sons may have a chink in their armour.

Every army has a bad matchup, Eldar firepower hurts you more the more elite your force and with middling teen model costs that includes marines.

Marine players and GW itself are the reason this direction is needed. In the fluff marines make up a fraction of a percent of the fighting forces of the galaxy, in the game there are half a dozen dexes and a push to sell them that means in a pick up game there are good odds your opponent will be playing one flavour or another of Imperial supermen.
As such the game now needs to be balanced around the sheer number of them so races need to have the tools to reliably kill massed 3+ saves. I personally hope the Tau and Eldar dexes are more of an indicator of things to come, a bit of Xeno's love and removal of the marine blinkers is exactly what the game needs.

Oh and cover ignoring AP3-2 ion blasts, heldrakes, the Eldar's enormous number of MEQ killing options, and cover ignoring AP3 Colossi are all things that have joined forces to make footslogging marines generally a one way ticket to an early grave, this wouldn't be a problem if cracking Rhinos wasn't easy as hell.

People know that the Dark Angels can get a TON of invulnerable saves right?

Marines are fine as is.

Sure, they have more things that ignore their fancy armour than before, but their 3+ armour still works just fine against the vast majority of the guns in the game. Their statline is the best basic trooper in the game, and their points cost matches this.

Try running Orks, DE or similar sometime, where every gun in the fething game ignores your armour, and where a Marine can beat any of your vehicles down with his codpiece, instead of needing a specialist anti-tank tool like a powerfist.

Marines had it uber-good for a long time (especially with the writers one-upping already good books all through fifth) to the point that it was considered 'normal' for Marines to get (for example) 2+, 3++ terminators, FNP bubbles, JOTWW style instagibs etc.

6th ed they seem to be reigning in this rampant Marineworship, and bringing things a bit closer to balanced (a few abberations aside), so another spate of Marine or go home releases is hopefully unlikely,

I for one am enjoying the idea that xeno armies can be something other than target practise God forbid that a race that has been around for the next best thing to eternity has guns that can cut through armour!

To quote one guy at my FLGS (as it sounds a lot like some of the posts post-6th)

'They are xenos....they shouldn't be able to beat Mahreeeenz! Mahreenz need a buff to 2+ armour, and be 10 pts each.'

Yeah right....


(sorry for the rant, but marines are still just fine, and the sky is still right where it always was.)

 Ascalam wrote:
Marines are fine as is.

Sure, they have more things that ignore their fancy armour than before, but their 3+ armour still works just fine against the vast majority of the guns in the game. Their statline is the best basic trooper in the game, and their points cost matches this.

Try running Orks, DE or similar sometime, where every gun in the fething game ignores your armour, and where a Marine can beat any of your vehicles down with his codpiece, instead of needing a specialist anti-tank tool like a powerfist.

Marines had it uber-good for a long time (especially with the writers one-upping already good books all through fifth) to the point that it was considered 'normal' for Marines to get (for example) 2+, 3++ terminators, FNP bubbles, JOTWW style instagibs etc.

6th ed they seem to be reigning in this rampant Marineworship, and bringing things a bit closer to balanced (a few abberations aside), so another spate of Marine or go home releases is hopefully unlikely,

I for one am enjoying the idea that xeno armies can be something other than target practise God forbid that a race that has been around for the next best thing to eternity has guns that can cut through armour!

To quote one guy at my FLGS (as it sounds a lot like some of the posts post-6th)

'They are xenos....they shouldn't be able to beat Mahreeeenz! Mahreenz need a buff to 2+ armour, and be 10 pts each.'

Yeah right....


(sorry for the rant, but marines are still just fine, and the sky is still right where it always was.)

I play orks for the longest time, and the difference here is that our av 14 costs about 100 points, and our disposable troops cost almost a third what marines do for the same toughness/WS and more attacks in close.

It's gonna take something interesting to make marines competatively viable again, vector strike always hitting side armor gimps marines ability to turtle against some of the meaner things.

True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Orks lose .5 Orks, the Marine loses .33 Marines. Orks benefit from cover against small-arms, the Marine doesn't. The Orks also have a higher maximum damage output, and aren't as likely to be gimped due to bad rolling. Counter-intuitively enough, Orks are the least likely race to be screwed over by chance.

davou wrote:

I play orks for the longest time, and the difference here is that our av 14 costs about 100 points, and our disposable troops cost almost a third what marines do for the same toughness/WS and more attacks in close.

Ork AV14 lacks the firepower of SM AV14, as well as only being AV14 to the front and having *very* easily hit sides. Ork troops are closer to half now than a third the cost of an SM with the CSM and DA books, while lacking the ability to engage the same array of targets or engage them at the same ranges. These things aren't anything new, it's been the case for multiple editions now...

 Ascalam wrote:
True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Marine shoots at 24" range... .333 chance to kill an ork. Orks move 6" and can shoot (really should have shootas on Boyz now), giving them a .333 to kill the marine... Um its a tie, but that's a ties that each lose one model, advantage orks, by a long shot

Marine shoots at 12" range... .667 chance to kill an ork (so we'll give it to him, though we shouldn't). 2 Orks move 6" and shoot, .333 change to kill the marine and a .583 chance to charge the marine (who, against a marine, will only lose an ork .25 of the time, but the marine has a .667 chance of dying). If change fails and an ork dies next turn, then its still a better chance the last ork shoot or assaults the marine then kills him)... slim but still ork advantage.

So if your point is that orks are better at shooting range if you play it out, then you're right.

 Vaktathi wrote:

davou wrote:

I play orks for the longest time, and the difference here is that our av 14 costs about 100 points, and our disposable troops cost almost a third what marines do for the same toughness/WS and more attacks in close.

Ork AV14 lacks the firepower of SM AV14, as well as only being AV14 to the front and having *very* easily hit sides. Ork troops are closer to half now than a third the cost of an SM with the CSM and DA books, while lacking the ability to engage the same array of targets or engage them at the same ranges. These things aren't anything new, it's been the case for multiple editions now...

The firepower on the SM AV14 isn't really the point when the main reason to take them is for the transportation of get close, let assault units come closer, because AV14 for marines is Horrendously expensive if you're thinking to use them as a gun platform.

Not to mention the 5++ on Ork vehicles from KFF helps a bit.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The firepower on the SM AV14 isn't really the point when the main reason to take them is for the transportation of get close

In and of itself, yes, the firepower isn't the main point of the tank. That said, Land Raiders still pack fearsome weaponry that Battlewagons cannot match save for a deffrolla ramming attacks.

Not to mention the 5++ on Ork vehicles from KFF helps a bit.

That requires an additional HQ choice that may or may not be present however. It's also hilariously easy to get to that AV12 side armor.

I play Tau and I lose sleep about how I'm going to try to kill marines since I don't have the money to buy more XV8s, so I think just being a marine is fine.

alot of the marine spec rules need reworking not the army itself

 Ascalam wrote:
True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Actually, the marines have lost more tactically, since a single marine casualty cuts out the killing power of the marine list far more than the three boyz.... Not to mention, there are 60 more behind the one and a half that died.

 davou wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Actually, the marines have lost more tactically, since a single marine casualty cuts out the killing power of the marine list far more than the three boyz.... Not to mention, there are 60 more behind the one and a half that died.

Again, it's closer to 2 orks to 1 marine now (Orks are 6ppm, new marines are 13/14pts), and losing 3 orks in most lists is pretty comparable to losing a single marine, most Ork lists aren't sporting 180 dudes

Quoting the marine codex on vanguard vets: "It is said that were a Vanguard Veteran armed only with his fists and his wits, he could storm an enemy bastion and emerge victorious, and that with the bolt pistol and chainsword of his bloody trade the same veteran would prove superior to thrice that figure of foes." That's an example of pure fluff marine, but for obvious reasons this will never happen in a game unless you roll stupidly well and the enemy doesn't do anything for an entire game.

As it is marines are fine for the game as is. They could shave a point off or two or perhaps given some banners, but as long as you play smart with them they can still do well. All armies have major weaknesses or armies they do well against and by no means are all the armies/ units currently balanced.Each new codex seems to have a new toy or two that cannot be passes up so knowing GWs love of marines the new ones will probably get a couple new things to help them out

I agree that they are decently powerful, but they could stand to have a few more tactical gimmics... The fact that most of the tanks have rhino-sides is what makes the heldrake a bane;

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

Where did you get this idea? Not even close. On average, even when remaining stationary, an A barge kills 2-3 Tacs at most.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

Where did you get this idea? Not even close. On average, even when remaining stationary, an A barge kills 2-3 Tacs at most.

Maybe with ridiculously lucky Tesla rolls and really poor armor saves?

It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

 Psienesis wrote:
It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

...and then, miraculously, two STCs were found: one with better/larger terminator armour and a Knight walker for marines, and another that gave improved Rhino chassis. Trust me, it's coming.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

In the grimdark darkness of 40k technology does not evolve over time... a tremmor of warp/science/THEDANGERSOFTHEOUTERREALM come in and suddenly armies get units that used to not exist but now have exited for centuries. That, or I just throw bloodletters and daemonettes at marines.

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

I think people are confusing Annihilation Barges (A storm bolter shy of 100 points, 2-6 TL Autocannons) with Doomsday Arks (a meltabomb shy of 180 points, S10AP1 large blast).

 Lobukia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

...and then, miraculously, two STCs were found: one with better/larger terminator armour and a Knight walker for marines, and another that gave improved Rhino chassis. Trust me, it's coming.

Oh, of course it is. 40K is a setting, not a story. Nothing is going to really, fundamentally change.

Eagleace115 wrote:
In terms of space marine fluff I agree with you 110%. For the galaxy's best warriors who have been fighting for hundreds or even thousands of years they die by the handfuls.
If you really want fluff marines look up the movie marine rules. Your basic trooper has an assault cannon for a bolter with T6 and a 3+ feel no pain they can always take. The rules are extremely outdated, but a few changes and you could start running a few games or even start a campain if you really want that space marine feel. The only problem it's not balanced at all (especially if the enemy has a lot of plasma) and if you try and make a movie marine captain you could end up with a 6-8W T6 model, but it'd cost 400 pts and could only move 6' a turn...

That "movie marine" list was fantastic, I tried it out. Basically one squad was your army. They were such killing machines it was like fielding Rambo with Terminator with Judge Dredd = Epic Win. Made as a joke, not so much a joke now.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think people are confusing Annihilation Barges (A storm bolter shy of 100 points, 2-6 TL Autocannons) with Doomsday Arks (a meltabomb shy of 180 points, S10AP1 large blast).

S9. There's only 1 S10 weapon in the whole codex, and that's 1 shot only.

I can definitely say being a marine is more than enough. Just got done with a 1v1 3k point match with my Salamanders VS Orks. SOOO many times I should have died from obnoxious loota fire, it was like oh 48 shots, 22 hits, 15 wounds.... aaaaaaaaaaaand ALL SAVED! It's not just this one game I'm basing it off of either. We all know no race is perfect. Space marines are the great vanilla ice cream of this game, the great litmus paper if you will. Not the best at anything or the worst either. Just a good army to try yours against.

I love hearing, "Oh you have marines?! Mind if I test out this new build I just finished?"

Like the one guy said above on pg1. Strategy isn't AS imperative with with the superhumans in sweet, sweet power armor, as with other more fragile races, but damn, if you play it strategically and plan your moves and set up well they serve you well.

Being a marine is certainly enough.

 BladeTX wrote:
I can definitely say being a marine is more than enough. Just got done with a 1v1 3k point match with my Salamanders VS Orks. SOOO many times I should have died from obnoxious loota fire, it was like oh 48 shots, 22 hits, 15 wounds.... aaaaaaaaaaaand ALL SAVED! It's not just this one game I'm basing it off of either. We all know no race is perfect. Space marines are the great vanilla ice cream of this game, the great litmus paper if you will. Not the best at anything or the worst either. Just a good army to try yours against.

I love hearing, "Oh you have marines?! Mind if I test out this new build I just finished?"

Like the one guy said above on pg1. Strategy isn't AS imperative with with the superhumans in sweet, sweet power armor, as with other more fragile races, but damn, if you play it strategically and plan your moves and set up well they serve you well.

Being a marine is certainly enough.

Wait, your evidence that the Space Marines can stand up to new codices is that you beat orks?! And making 15 saves means that they are still durable I dub thee Sir Anecdotal

Codex creep enough, eventually being a marine won't be enough. Maybe its time the marines got a stat boost

 CuddlySquig wrote:
Codex creep enough, eventually being a marine won't be enough. Maybe its time the marines got a stat boost

I'd agree if DA and CSM hadn't already dropped. Cheap boosts might be the best option for GW right now... or some sort of "return to the fight" rule for the whole dex.

There's already so much they can save against. Why boost them? Just because the other factions have a variety of ways to beat them now? Seems like a slippery slope.

 BladeTX wrote:
There's already so much they can save against. Why boost them? Just because the other factions have a variety of ways to beat them now? Seems like a slippery slope.

Imagine the outrage if someone said that about Xenos.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BladeTX wrote:
There's already so much they can save against. Why boost them? Just because the other factions have a variety of ways to beat them now? Seems like a slippery slope.

Imagine the outrage if someone said that about Xenos.

Yeah, I have a problem opening my E-mouth when it isn't asked for. lol

I think Space Marines should be able to pick up friendly Heavy and Special Weapons as long as they are in the same unit. I mean come on I was against my brother's Dark Angels the other day and his Plasma Cannon and Gun was easily picked off turn 1 so it was a waste of points. Marines are Devastators first before they are Tactical Marines, so that they are trained with Heavy and Special Weapons.

new marine codex.

HQS = named characters and the like, chapter master, captain etc

Elites = dreadnaughts, techmarines, scouts

Troops = 5-10 man squads, each marine may choose items from the armoury

armoury = all CC weapons, power weapons, hammers etc, Combat shield, SS, special weapons, heavy weapons, bike, jump pack, TDA

If more than 2 heavy weapons are chosen = heavy support

If more than 2 special weapons are chosen = elites

if bike/jump pack is chosen = fast attack

Fast attack = speeders, flyers

Heavy support = tanks

then squads would have more of a choice how you want to run them. The only problem is then the special rules or vets and the like, but then you could give chapter tactics to the standard master/captains that you could select

I think being a marine is 'enough'.

Your bog standard marine is still superhuman compared to a guardsmen, its just that most gamers commanding their marines don't have superhuman intelligence.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I think being a marine is 'enough'.

Your bog standard marine is still superhuman compared to a guardsmen, its just that most gamers commanding their marines don't have superhuman intelligence.

If you need superhuman intelligence to win with a faction it obviously isn't balanced.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

Said everybody before you..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

Said everybody before you..

I have initiative 2. Give me a break

This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

bahzakhain wrote:
This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

You're assuming that everyone who plays a variant Space Marine Codex would start playing a Guard variant all of a sudden, instead of just playing with whatever Marine books they could.

bahzakhain wrote:
This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

That's not how it works. At all.

I figure they will add some special rules for different groups.

Could have some kind of "shooting discipline" that is like the Tau ability to supporting overwatch fire.

They will do the usual: give some points breaks for a few things and increase the cost of anything good (dakka pred), and introduce a couple new models.

bahzakhain wrote:
This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

Yup.

I figure the recent advent of AP3 everywhere was going to come eventually. MEQ makes up, like, half the books, and I don't care how long you scream "MASS ARMOR SAVES KILLS ANYTHING" because I'd take disintegrators or an Annihilation Barge or anything like that instead of wasting tons of shooting hoping that they'll fail armor saves.

In terms of Marines themselves not being as attractive for their points cost, I'd like to direct you to the fact that most competitive Marines lists try to avoid taking standard Marines as hard as possible (Deathwing, BA assault armies, etc). It's not that Space Marines themselves are bad, it's just your bog-standard Space Marine is really sub-par compared to most other options in all the books.

I find the rules =/ fluff arguement to be really funny. If we actually reflected fluff in rules then SM would never win because IG would field 1 lrbt per every SM, orks would field 100 orks per SM, and eldar would have flyer vehicles for all their grav tanks.

The real problem with all the SM tac squads is one of firepower not durability. If you could take 2 special weapons per every 5 then they would be great as they could do real damage before biting the bullet. Saying they need to be more durable ignores what makes the good troops good; ie vets due to 3 melta/plasma slots, grey hunters due to upgrades/terminator attachment and banner, necrons due to NS, etc. Making them tougher would be of limited use as then you still will be back complaining that they just get stuck in tarpit squads all the time.

They actually are probably a little too good for their pts in terms of stats, etc. but they just don't have the weapons to really contribute and so everyone takes the squads that have the weapons or some overwhelming defensive ability.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I think being a marine is 'enough'.

Your bog standard marine is still superhuman compared to a guardsmen, its just that most gamers commanding their marines don't have superhuman intelligence.

If you need superhuman intelligence to win with a faction it obviously isn't balanced.

I jest, of course.

However, Space Marines have some supreme strategic advantages that can't really come up in a tactical game of 40k. They are a lightning assault force. They go where they want, when they want. They can end entire campaigns in one masterful raid on a Capital City or enemy HQ.

They should never really be just hanging out waiting for Collosus shells or basilisk shells to start raining down on them. They should be arriving via drop pod or thunderhawk, destroy everything, then getting out before the enemy has a chance to respond with anything really heavy.

With that in mind, I think marines stats are fine. Its just that by virtue of the Eternal War missions in the book they can be forced into a fight they would normally avoid (unless of course you have a drop pod list)

 Mr. Self Destruct wrote:
MEQ makes up, like, half the books, and I don't care how long you scream "MASS ARMOR SAVES KILLS ANYTHING" because I'd take disintegrators or an Annihilation Barge or anything like that instead of wasting tons of shooting hoping that they'll fail armor saves.

Um...that is pretty much exactly how Annihilation Barges kill infantry. Creating a ton of wounds with AP- and hoping that through sheer volume of fire that your target fail enough armor saves to do the job.

power armour should be 6+ invuln.

even better, bring back save modifiers, AP system is slowed. and move the game over to a D8 or a D10 system. D6s suck.

I actually don't think the 3+ armor is the problem at the moment. It's the insane amount of weaponry that makes toughness 4 obsolete. When you have mass shooting of strength 5 or above wounding you on a 3 or 2+ how many saves are you going to roll on 10 or more dice? The saturation of rending both in close combat and shooting really hasn't helped the situation either. I hate to say it but Marine armies need a boost to survive in the 6th edition.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

Said everybody before you..

I have initiative 2. Give me a break

Aww, I forgive you ;D

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
I actually don't think the 3+ armor is the problem at the moment. It's the insane amount of weaponry that makes toughness 4 obsolete. When you have mass shooting of strength 5 or above wounding you on a 3 or 2+ how many saves are you going to roll on 10 or more dice?

This really hasn't increased that much, I mean, it's not like IG armies couldn't put out 70+ S5 or higher shots in the last edition.

The saturation of rending both in close combat and shooting really hasn't helped the situation either. I hate to say it but Marine armies need a boost to survive in the 6th edition.

Only Eldar has really put more of this into the game, and that's largely because their troops were god-awful without it. That's one army.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This really hasn't increased that much, I mean, it's not like IG armies couldn't put out 70+ S5 or higher shots in the last edition.

Really? Last edition? Hull points, genius.

 RayND wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
This really hasn't increased that much, I mean, it's not like IG armies couldn't put out 70+ S5 or higher shots in the last edition.

Really? Last edition? Hull points, genius.

Do you do anything other than log on once a week to make a vaguely insulting response to one of my posts?

Either way, it's blindingly obvious you missed the point of my post. The post I was responding to was bemoaning all those weapons that wound marines on 2's and 3's, I simply pointed out that such has been the way of things for many years now, it's not something new or recent, and thus blaming current woes on that doesn't seem to really be appropriate.

With the addition of all the AP 3/2/1 in the new codex's (fought my first battle today against the new eldar and holy , the things that don't have ap 3/2/1 have that psuedo rending thing)

Some of what I faced was lower in strength though, so its still 4+ to wound with str 4 AP 2 flamer, and it cost them in points.

To even it out a bit marines will just get a bit cheaper. Dark angels are now 14 points each with chapter tactics and stubborn, So I expect Vanilla marines will be 13 each with chapter tactics. But this will just add to the "meh they are only marines" factor.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
With the addition of all the AP 3/2/1 in the new codex's (fought my first battle today against the new eldar and holy , the things that don't have ap 3/2/1 have that psuedo rending thing)

Some of what I faced was lower in strength though, so its still 4+ to wound with str 4 AP 2 flamer, and it cost them in points.

To even it out a bit marines will just get a bit cheaper. Dark angels are now 14 points each with chapter tactics and stubborn, So I expect Vanilla marines will be 13 each with chapter tactics. But this will just add to the "meh they are only marines" factor.

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

Why? CSM are reasonably priced now against the other 6th ED codexes. And they got their fair share of marine killing goodies with the hellturkey

DOOMONYOU wrote:

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

Why? CSM are reasonably priced now against the other 6th ED codexes. And they got their fair share of marine killing goodies with the hellturkey

I think his point is that compared to TAC marines, who get combat squad and ATSKNF, CSM arent that good. So pricing TAC marines the same as CSM would be irritating. Don't CSM get something special though to compensate for the lack of ATSKNF?

DOOMONYOU wrote:

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

Why? CSM are reasonably priced now against the other 6th ED codexes. And they got their fair share of marine killing goodies with the hellturkey

So standard C:SM MEQ should be 13 points, matched point for point with Combat tactics and ATSKNF against CSM with no special abilities at all, all because of one unit.



I have nothing more to say to this.

I think his point is that compared to TAC marines, who get combat squad and ATSKNF, CSM arent that good. So pricing TAC marines the same as CSM would be irritating. Don't CSM get something special though to compensate for the lack of ATSKNF.

Nope, 1 point less then DA and that's it. You can buy marks, and flags, but that's an actual cost that would take it above 13.

I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

3+ save on 2D6. "Retro" is already the name of the game, after all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

3+ save on 2D6. "Retro" is already the name of the game, after all.

Could just give them 1+, thus making it so only AP1 weapons can deny them a save.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

3+ save on 2D6. "Retro" is already the name of the game, after all.

Could just give them 1+, thus making it so only AP1 weapons can deny them a save.

Works too. Would certainly go some way to making Terminators better against Plasma weapons, although it'd probably require some melee weapons other than Warscythes to be AP1.

I played my first tourney this weekend with Vanilla Marines (Aurora) Armor hvy unit.. I was 1, 1, 1 at the end of the day. I think the basic stat line for the Vet and Tact marines are ok. I would certainly like a higher toughness but it would unbalance things very quickly.. 6ed is shooty... Tacts and Vets need to be cheaper and have more access to heavier guns.. Especially the tacts... I would also like to see the Auto Cannon improved to AP3 instead of the same AP as the Assault cannon. I would like to see small buff in the Whirlwinds strength or AP as well... Vets are way overpriced 10man squad with jump packs and only 1 free power sword is 325, throw in some more power swords (4) and some Plasma pistols (5) and you are up to 460 points.. That matches my L/R and Assault Termie squad team...! And I don't want a dam Marine MC.. I'm a Marine, I kill MC's, not field them....! Ed

So, firat everyone complains that GW made 40k into the space marine game, now you're complaining that it's not friendly to marines anymore?

So standard C:SM MEQ should be 13 points, matched point for point with Combat tactics and ATSKNF against CSM with no special abilities at all, all because of one unit.

They get the Chaos boon table for free and you can purchase upgrades for them that give bonuses.
Combat tactics is just split the squad into two, if you want it to be something different you have to pay 200+ for a unique character.

If your that worried about leadership pay 1ppm and get a LD 10 squad. IIRC thats more Ld than a tactical squad






Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm a Marine, I kill MC's, not field them....!

too true. Theres a reason space Wolves have beastslayer.

DOOMONYOU wrote:

They get the Chaos boon table for free

You say this like its a good thing...there's that whole mandatory "must always challenge" thing to go along with that as well that routinely kicks CSM players in the junk, and the chaos boon table affects only one model in the unit and doesn't necessarily do anything useful (oh boy, Eternal Warrior on my W1 Champion!) or at all in some cases.

and you can purchase upgrades for them that give bonuses.

Yes, purchase, at a points increase, usually a substantial one.

If your that worried about leadership pay 1ppm and get a LD 10 squad. IIRC thats more Ld than a tactical squad

It is indeed, however ATSKNF is still better.

DOOMONYOU wrote:

So standard C:SM MEQ should be 13 points, matched point for point with Combat tactics and ATSKNF against CSM with no special abilities at all, all because of one unit.

They get the Chaos boon table for free and you can purchase upgrades for them that give bonuses.
Combat tactics is just split the squad into two, if you want it to be something different you have to pay 200+ for a unique character.

If your that worried about leadership pay 1ppm and get a LD 10 squad. IIRC thats more Ld than a tactical squad

The chaos boon table isn't good, and against some armies it'll never see an upgrade because they lack a large amount of Sargent type units to even upgrade against, and yet still forces you to single out your champion and force him to challenge regardless of who he is. Not to mention the fact that Gift of mutation is 5-7 PPM overcosted.

Combat Squadding gives you double the scoring units, and you can have two squads leaving a drop pod, not to mention it's still a stronger ability

Chapter tactics gives all of your units a free ability based on which SC you have, and allows you to fail morale checks and run back if need be.

Also you pay 1ppm to get LD10...And that's still not better then ATSKNF, and now you've matched DA in price, who also have stubborn.

oh boy, Eternal Warrior on my W1 Champion!

And there are 22 that benifit them. Including turning them into a Deamon prince.

It is indeed, however ATSKNF is still better.

And you can get better than ATSKNF by getting fearless units as troops choices.

You can have a 19ppm unit with 4 strength 5 attacks on the charge

a 23 ppm with 4++ and AP 3 bolter

a 24 ppm with toughness 5, fnp with poisoned CC attacks

and a 17 ppm with Init 5 and the option for ignores cover weapons.

DOOMONYOU wrote:

oh boy, Eternal Warrior on my W1 Champion!

And there are 22 that benifit them. Including turning them into a Deamon prince.

It is indeed, however ATSKNF is still better.

And you can get better than ATSKNF by getting fearless units as troops choices.

You can have a 19ppm unit with 4 strength 5 attacks on the charge

a 23 ppm with 4++ and AP 3 bolter

a 24 ppm with toughness 5, fnp with poisoned CC attacks

and a 17 ppm with Init 5 and the option for ignores cover weapons.

Fearless is not better then ATSKNF, costs more (for non culttroops) and can be sniped (non cult troops)

Bezerkers are weak, and poor in this edition

Thousand Sons are Worse

Plague marines are awesome.

Noise marines are second best

And you can get better than ATSKNF by getting fearless units as troops choices.

You can have a 19ppm unit with 4 strength 5 attacks on the charge

a 23 ppm with 4++ and AP 3 bolter

a 24 ppm with toughness 5, fnp with poisoned CC attacks

and a 17 ppm with Init 5 and the option for ignores cover weapons.

ATSKNF is objectively better than Fearless.

DOOMONYOU wrote:

oh boy, Eternal Warrior on my W1 Champion!

And there are 22 that benifit them. Including turning them into a Deamon prince.

Yes, but again, lots of rolls are useless, some are detrimental, and they only affect 1 model in a unit and he *has* to challenge. It's not really a "benefit".

It is indeed, however ATSKNF is still better.

And you can get better than ATSKNF by getting fearless units as troops choices.

The marine statline isn't the problem. Nor is the armour value in my opinon. The amount of weapons that are AP 3 is probably at a good level.

I think the problem is the amount of weaponry that just totally negates the advantage of been toughness 4 instead of 3 these days. Mainly because of the reduction in small arms fire at the moment. The amount of times that my marines are not getting wounded on a 2+ these days is slim. Why is this? probably because the latest string of Codex's that have come out favour weaponry mounted on Vehicles, Battlesuits, large monsterous creature weapons platforms, where high Str weapons are abundant. We see few lists at the moment where there are troops on the board that marines (or xenos for that matter) can use their standard anti infantry weapons on to any sort of effect, so they feel like they have become, and somewhat have, a walking special weapon in the end.

I'm hoping as we see more codex releases that utilize their high troop count infantry more (Black Templars, Orks, Tryanids, possibly guard if their mech is toned down a bit.) the humble marine may find his place again.

I don't think the new Space Marine codex release will be what actually saves the marine at the moment. I think it will be brining the horde army codexs out quickly to push the meta into a place where certain armies will consider bringing more small arms fire to deal with the model count they are facing. Once we see more small arms fire the Marine toughness and armour saves comes into play more often.

 vossyvo wrote:

Spoiler:

The marine statline isn't the problem. Nor is the armour value in my opinon. The amount of weapons that are AP 3 is probably at a good level.

I think the problem is the amount of weaponry that just totally negates the advantage of been toughness 4 instead of 3 these days. Mainly because of the reduction in small arms fire at the moment. The amount of times that my marines are not getting wounded on a 2+ these days is slim. Why is this? probably because the latest string of Codex's that have come out favour weaponry mounted on Vehicles, Battlesuits, large monsterous creature weapons platforms, where high Str weapons are abundant. We see few lists at the moment where there are troops on the board that marines (or xenos for that matter) can use their standard anti infantry weapons on to any sort of effect, so they feel like they have become, and somewhat have, a walking special weapon in the end.

I'm hoping as we see more codex releases that utilize their high troop count infantry more (Black Templars, Orks, Tryanids, possibly guard if their mech is toned down a bit.) the humble marine may find his place again.

I don't think the new Space Marine codex release will be what actually saves the marine at the moment. I think it will be brining the horde army codexs out quickly to push the meta into a place where certain armies will consider bringing more small arms fire to deal with the model count they are facing. Once we see more small arms fire the Marine toughness and armour saves comes into play more often

.

Excellent points. Tau broke the flyer heavy meta, and Orks and BT will break low model count Tau... Does that mean DCA GK are back on top ?

dont worry, im sure theyll think of some half baked way to invalidate tau and eldar and make a shiney new marine codex top dog again.

all the tau players will flock to the new shiney marines $$

Which have no viable delivery method and no mentionable ranged weaponry

Rhino, Land raider. And they are beserkers, their not meant to want to shoot, they want to slice and dice.

And how often do you see this guys? Oh right, never.

We have a player who uses thousand sons at our local club. They are as tough as nails and mop the floor against any infantry army.

DOOMONYOU wrote:

Which have no viable delivery method and no mentionable ranged weaponry

Rhino, Land raider. And they are beserkers, their not meant to want to shoot, they want to slice and dice.

And how often do you see this guys? Oh right, never.

We have a player who uses thousand sons at our local club. They are as tough as nails and mop the floor against any infantry army.

Rhino's are not assault vehicles, land raiders aint worth it for just berzerkers.

Most infantry armies will make toast of Thousand Sons, as proven already in the Thousand Sons Tactics post.

You've never actually played Chaos have you?

 Kain wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

Where did you get this idea? Not even close. On average, even when remaining stationary, an A barge kills 2-3 Tacs at most.

Maybe with ridiculously lucky Tesla rolls and really poor armor saves?

Even with rolling all 6s from the main gun and secondary gun, you are still looking at roughly 5 dead marines.

DOOMONYOU wrote:


Rhino, Land raider. And they are beserkers, their not meant to want to shoot, they want to slice and dice.

Rhinos aren't a viable delivery method in 6E, they earliest they'll get stuck in is turn 3 thanks to the vehicle changes. Land Raiders are 250pt transports for a 200pt squad...

And yes, they want to slice and dice, but lacking any shooting ability means they don't have much of a way to engage many types of targets, in an edition heavily built around shooting.

We have a player who uses thousand sons at our local club. They are as tough as nails and mop the floor against any infantry army.

This does not tend to be popular experience with these, usually it's the TSons getting attritioned to death even by relatively non-horde armies, I haven't seen them on a table in years, and haven't seen one that did will in...well, lets say several editions. One will note they're basically non-existent in tournament scenes. Yes, they're very good at killing other marines in short range firefights.They die like normal marines to most fire, basic marines in cover will match (or not be far off) their survivability against AP3 or better weapons, aren't any better in CC, and they cost 77% more than basic marines.

You've never actually played Chaos have you?

No I haven't. But I have faced them.

All other armies don't have ATSKNF and they seem do do alright without it.

The new space marine codex will have them for 13-14 points, same statline with ATSKNF and chapter tactics, sergeant will have the choice of choosing from an armoury and they will keep the special weapon/heavy weapon choices they still have.

I guess thats why it is MEQ, i think a lot of counter units have been made to those stats over the years. I look at it as the bar to beat.

 Rotary wrote:
I guess thats why it is MEQ, i think a lot of counter units have been made to those stats over the years. I look at it as the bar to beat.

It's the same reason why a generic Space Marine Captain is not really that impressive. Every other assault HQ should be able to beat him or there's no point in using them.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I guess thats why it is MEQ, i think a lot of counter units have been made to those stats over the years. I look at it as the bar to beat.

It's the same reason why a generic Space Marine Captain is not really that impressive. Every other assault HQ should be able to beat him or there's no point in using them.

Well that and the Chapter Master tends to pack more goodies in a small points cost in terms of upgrade. Even the Honor Guard is a bump up over the Command Squad in terms of options available to it.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I guess thats why it is MEQ, i think a lot of counter units have been made to those stats over the years. I look at it as the bar to beat.

It's the same reason why a generic Space Marine Captain is not really that impressive. Every other assault HQ should be able to beat him or there's no point in using them.

They're the baseline by which everything else is measured, but that doesn't mean they're bad. Relative to the "fighty" HQ's of many other factions, they're rather impressive. It's generally only when you start getting stuff like Ork Warbosses and MC's, or stuff with specialized wargear like DE Archons with shadowfields or Necrons with Mindshackle scarabs that the baseline Captain is surpassed. I certainly wouldn't want to match an Autarch, Herald, Lord Commissar, Succubus, etc against one.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Rotary wrote:
I guess thats why it is MEQ, i think a lot of counter units have been made to those stats over the years. I look at it as the bar to beat.

It's the same reason why a generic Space Marine Captain is not really that impressive. Every other assault HQ should be able to beat him or there's no point in using them.

Considering most generic Space Marine Captains are woefully overcosted (BA, C:SM). It's no wonder.

Bezerkers 1ksons and noise marines aren't the best cult troops because they dont have the survivability of Plague marines in an edition with tons of shooting and heavy weapons, but really the other three exceed when there are more infantry models and small arms on the board. There isn't really any good delivery system for csm unless you take unites with deep strike and such.

Really when it comes to if marines are enough this edition, id say its situational, : for example, No when there are hell turkeys on the board spewing fire from their butt, but yes when there is more manageable units to deal with rather than flyers, like guardsmen. C:sm marines could do for a little buffing but not much considering their special characters can take artificer armor stormshields and the like.

Honestly I think if they return chapter traits it could tip the scales for C:SM to make a comeback. If the traits actually come back and are really useful, such as replacing chapter tactics with crusader/zealot and the likes then it'd really help out.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I agree, to a degree... ATKNF and Combat Tactics helps even more than it used to... SM players just need to be as wise as serpents... and use Rhinos and DPs. I am very careful with my marines, making sure they have cover (using those Rhinos and DPs as LoS blocking barriers) and giving their cover cover when needed (hello smoke launchers)... instead of treating them as invulnerable, I shepherd them around the battle field, and they pay me back by doing well.

Don't Drop Pods allow line of sight to pass through them?

Depends on whether you model them with doors open or closed (and let's not argue the legality of that again, that thread has only been dead for around a month or so).

Actually, if you put all the little fiddly bits inside the DP, it pretty much blocks most LoS with the doors open. I think a lot of people don't bother putting all those extra pieces in and so that opens up the LoS by a lot.

 Vaktathi wrote:
They're the baseline by which everything else is measured, but that doesn't mean they're bad. Relative to the "fighty" HQ's of many other factions, they're rather impressive. It's generally only when you start getting stuff like Ork Warbosses and MC's, or stuff with specialized wargear like DE Archons with shadowfields or Necrons with Mindshackle scarabs that the baseline Captain is surpassed. I certainly wouldn't want to match an Autarch, Herald, Lord Commissar, Succubus, etc against one.

A decently equipped Autarch or Herald of Khorne or Slaanesh should be able to beat a Space Marine Captain/Chapter Master on most occasions thanks to higher initiative and low AP, At-Initiative weapons. So the master of an entire Space Marine chapter can generally defeat, what, a basic human officer or a sub-commander level Dark Eldar....and nobody sees a problem with that?

I think Chapter Masters and Captains should come stock with artificer armour if the points remain the about same. It doesn't make sense that a high level officer is running around in armour that is inferior to his mechanic's.

The basic marine statline is one of the few statlines that hasn't changed at all since 2nd edition. I think all of the original 2nd edition armies besides IG have had some sort of statline tweak over the years. The basic bolter hasn't changed any either, but most of the older armies have had improvements on their basic firearms (again, except for IG...sensing a trend here). Now, we already know nothing is getting changed in 6th to those main components, and so I hardly think that C:SM will suddenly make the basic marine army top dog (have they ever been top dog???). However, there is no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and its possible to make C:SM a top tier army with what we have already established.

One way is more options. Tacticals would greatly benefit from the ability to take 2 special weapons or the standard 1&1. Its a small change, but one that would greatly increase the usefulness of the basic marine squads. The other option is to stick with the 1&1, but include an upgrade (for a small price) to allow the heavy weapon to be Assault. I think it was in Rogue Trader they had suspensor (or whatever they were called) that allowed heavy weapons to move and fire. Bring that back for tactical squads, even if its at a slightly reduced BS. Some new weapons would be really nice. I'm kind of sick of the stock Las/Plasma/Melta/Bolter weapon list. How about unique weapons for vehicles instead of just twin-linked versions of the same things.

Another step is to make the elites actually, you know, ELITE! Dreadnaughts die if you look at them wrong, and tactical terminators are overpriced and really can't dish out the punishment like their price would indicate. 2+/5++ is not special, certainly not 40 points per model special, especially considering the amount of AP2 armies can field now (and given that they generally only have to deal with 5 terminators, they don't need a lot). The ability to take 2 heavy terminator weapons per 5-man squad might make tactical termies enticing again since we know a steep points reduction isn't coming. Sternguard have the right level of capabilities, but should probably be reduced by 3-4 points. I'm sure the rumored new uber-terminators will come out of the Elites section, so I'm curious as to how badly they will invalidate tactical terminators.

My hopes are not that high for the new SM codex to be honest. I'm sure it will have some nice options, but ultimately, C:SM will remain a decent, but just slightly short of top-tier, army.

The basic bolter hasn't changed any either, but most of the older armies have had improvements on their basic firearms (again, except for IG...sensing a trend here).

Orks got worse, what with originally using Imperium weapons, losing that access, and going down to BS2 (they used to be 3 and 4!)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The basic bolter hasn't changed any either, but most of the older armies have had improvements on their basic firearms (again, except for IG...sensing a trend here).

Orks got worse, what with originally using Imperium weapons, losing that access, and going down to BS2 (they used to be 3 and 4!)

Orks were actually a BETTER shooting army than Guard and Marines in 4th because Shoota Boyz actually get 2 shots at 18" whereas Guard or Marines would have to stand still in order to fire a single shot at 24" or 2 shots at 12".

They're not nearly as good now thanks to change in the main rulebook of course.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The basic bolter hasn't changed any either, but most of the older armies have had improvements on their basic firearms (again, except for IG...sensing a trend here).

Orks got worse, what with originally using Imperium weapons, losing that access, and going down to BS2 (they used to be 3 and 4!)

But Orks got much better at being, well, being Orks. 2nd edition Orks couldn't assault their way out of a wet paper bag with a hole in it. 3rd turned them into a true dedicated assault army, with bumps in the statline where it counted.

4th edition made the shoota useful (prior to that codex, who took shoota boyz?). Assault 2 at 18" in the hands of a mob of orks is a bit more useful than a rapid fire bolter. Oddly enough, now slugga boyz are the odd troop unit out because the extra range and mobile firepower are better in 6th than an extra attack.

 vossyvo wrote:
I don't think the new Space Marine codex release will be what actually saves the marine at the moment. I think it will be brining the horde army codexs out quickly to push the meta into a place where certain armies will consider bringing more small arms fire to deal with the model count they are facing. Once we see more small arms fire the Marine toughness and armour saves comes into play more often.

This!!!

Drop in a few pods full of sternguard with BA libby's on any Xenos, 60 poison rounds with a re-roll on successful saves (divination) will take most of the oomph the Xenos codex's have gotten in 6ed right out of the equation. As for bladestorm and Tau defensive fire, heavy flamers clear the mind of the alien quite nicely.

Apart from being allowed to purchase chapter tactics without having to field a specific special character, I play Raven Guard and HATE Shrike. There are only a few things that I think the Marines need.

1. Give tac squads the option of one special or heavy at 5 models, at ten they unlock a special. So they can do either the SW build or the reg Tac build without allowing the 6 strong lascannon/plasmagun squads we saw in 3ed. This is so much better than the 10 or nothing squads we have now. Doesn't have to be free upgrades, just let them be task specific.
2. Bike mounted captains currently allow bike squads as troops. Expand this to jump packs and TDA. Would allow for a lot of the toys to come out without having to dump a fourth of your army into troop choices your play style may not want.

And most importantly.

3. GIVE FRIGGIN VANGUARD VETS JUMP PACKS AS PART OF THE BASE 25PT COST! I love these guys, and still sneak them into a list when I get the chance. But dropping 100 points into packs to get a squad of 10 on the table with just an AP3 power weapon on the sgt makes them an almost unacceptable point sink. I play mine out of spite, I like them. /shrug

Personally, I'd like to see Tactical squads be allowed to take either 2 heavy or 2 special weapons or 1 of each, instead of JUST 1 of each like now.

That, and either:
A) make bolters assault 2 (will never happen) (or just give them storm bolters like GK)
B) give them another CCW
C) give them counterattack (again, won't happen)

Then, transport is probably the biggest problem, rhinos are cheap but slow, easily popped, and aren't assault vehicles. GW doesn't need to address all three of those issues to make them good, but it'd be nice to see them do something there.

Land Raiders and Stormravens are just too expensive to be ferrying standard 3+ power armor marines into combat.

Allowing apothecaries to break off into squads would certainly help with survivability, but I somehow doubt that happens, since that's the BA thing, along with fast vehicles.


Or better than all of that, how about they just tweak Sternguard to 23pts/model (in line with Thousand Suns), and Vanguard base cost to 25pts/model WITH a jump pack (and maybe WS5, if they're feeling generous), make them troops, and then make the Rhino an assault vehicle (or new STC, the Hippo).

I don't think they'll do much though. If they do anything except drop the points by 2 per guy, I'll be surprised.

EDIT: Whoa, dracpanzer said a bunch of the same things 34 seconds before I did. Cool.

Lets look at it this way:

GKs managed the transition from 5th to 6th. They fielded super-elite space marines for 20(!!!) ppm base. Recognizing how profoundly inflexible that was, GW added Inquisitors, notably Cortez, who opened up much cheaper but generic customizable squads. With one codex they got a lot of test information on relative strengths, across the 5ed - 6ed chasm. As stated elsewhere, SMarines make up half of the books and a huge percentage of the consumer base.

Xenos armies, meant to be specialists, are "balanced" against GK and DA (and each other). CSM gets shoehorned in because they're going to be rebalanced in supplements.

Space Marines are the logical next step. They're meant to be less shooty and more sturdy. To do that effectively, you need people to play more shooty (Xenos) and more sturdy (Nurgle CSM, GK) and do their best to exploit powerful force multipliers in those armies. CSM are the ultimate test platform because they are so customizable, GW really gets to see what kind of combinations are good before applying those lessons to vanilla SM

Flying Monstrous Creatures and Fliers in general were a new addition to 6th, and needed a lot of play testing. I honestly expect that the Space Marine codex is going to do the following:

Close the value gap between FMCs/Fliers and an equivalent number of points of elites.
Utilize more rule-bubbles, special units that impart their rules on allied units within 12" (bubble 5++?)
Another assault transport (cheaper)
Shooty dreadknights
Servo-skulls
Some jetpack wearing nonsense that can assault fliers or, more crudely, missiles


Things I'd like to see are:
a more potent sniper platform
More valuable techmarines (increase attached units BS by 1 including shooting fliers [but not overwatch]) and apothecaries (combat stims)
Some ridiculously shooty unit


Things I don't want to see:
Jump-pack terminators
Super cheap marines
Banners


Expect horde armies to get rebalanced after this. Daemons was a huge wake-up. Even with 5++ against the Xenos Ap, hordes need support from MFCs except for super-fast assaulting units! (Thus why I think SM will get another assault transport)

Actually, something that might help SM would be a slight bump to overwatch BS. Considering you can't assault after firing rapid-fire, marines just sort of stand there awkwardly while whatever they fired at charges them. Giving them a slight boost (BS2) to overwatch shots with a bolter (maybe a Bolter Specialization rule), would help to even the odds a little.

^^ could just use bolt pistols.

I think the real problem is every new army release is compared to SM as the 'standard army'.
And so every army has a unit -combo that can be effective vs SM.

Rather than compare every new army to Bog standard infantry IG, Orks etc.
They take the superhuman elite of the universe , and find ways to beat it.

Making SM the most popular army , skews the balance of the game play.

So because every new army has a way to deal with SM, makes it seem like the SMs are just the bland every day joe average army.
Which runs counter to the fluff.

Not even a month old, so I hope this isn't Necroposting:

This was a really good discussion on what marines need to be viable again.

So my question now, with most of the details out there on the new 'dex (if you trust the 40k radio guys, and I do).... Is it enough? Have handing out twin-linked effects and lowering costs of the less intimidating marines made them worth taking again? I just played a game using the new rules against a wave serpent / duel wraith knight list, and marines were pretty substantial, especially the ultramarine tacticals... cheaper and deadly accurate shots, much much better.

 Lobukia wrote:
Not even a month old, so I hope this isn't Necroposting:

This was a really good discussion on what marines need to be viable again.

So my question now, with most of the details out there on the new 'dex (if you trust the 40k radio guys, and I do).... Is it enough? Have handing out twin-linked effects and lowering costs of the less intimidating marines made them worth taking again? I just played a game using the new rules against a wave serpent / duel wraith knight list, and marines were pretty substantial, especially the ultramarine tacticals... cheaper and deadly accurate shots, much much better.

If it does make it worthwhile, then only C:SM is gonna be that way.

IMO, the only thing that leans the viability back in any direction but no is cost reductions.

Special rules and survivability is nice and definately costed fairly, the issue however is that there's no demand for those things at the moment; Whats wanted in troops is mass and low cost.

Its like walking past a store and seeing a really nice winter coat at a really fair price, but not wanting to buy it cause it's june.

Thing is, Marines aren't supposed to be cheap troops en masse. They are supposed to be uber, yet expensive, elite troops.

If you want cheap troops en masse, they need to also be non-uber. Cheap, great statline, great armour and great rules is what is commonly referred to as broken-as-gak

If you want to field cheap, en masse troops you need to be playing a different army.

Pretty much. What Marines needed was rules to make them worth their points, not a points drop. The fact they got both is interesting. Obviously it's not enough to make them fieldable in a horde, but it'll be enough to add a new unit or two.

But then, every army is getting cheaper as GW feeds the 'bigger is better' theory of game size, so they're still not going to be as numerous as other armies.

 Ascalam wrote:
Thing is, Marines aren't supposed to be cheap troops en masse. They are supposed to be uber, yet expensive, elite troops.

If you want cheap troops en masse, they need to also be non-uber. Cheap, great statline, great armour and great rules is what is commonly referred to as broken-as-gak

If you want to field cheap, en masse troops you need to be playing a different army.

I never said they should get it... I said thats what 6th ed wantsfrom its troops.

Fair enough.

To be frank though, cheap and en masse isn't doing so hot right now either, unless it also has some serious survivability.

Orks, for example, have cheap, en masse troops. You can put 180+ of them on a table and still have room for more toys. They die in a stiff breeze, as they have no survivability unless they take a KFF, which is easily negated by some armies these days.

 Ascalam wrote:
Fair enough.

To be frank though, cheap and en masse isn't doing so hot right now either, unless it also has some serious survivability.

Orks, for example, have cheap, en masse troops. You can put 180+ of them on a table and still have room for more toys. They die in a stiff breeze, as they have no survivability unless they take a KFF, which is easily negated by some armies these days.

OTOH, if they add more ignore covering guns, marines get better, providing they are bolter equivalents.

The issue right now is if an marine or guardsman are hit by a plasma gun in cover, both die the same statistically.
Yet, the guardsmen will outnumber the marines 3:1, meaning a single plasma gun can not kill 15pts of guardsmen no matter what, but it can drop 15-30 pts worth of marines.

And therein lies the issue

Amen akiasura.

Another thing to keep in mind, that survivability need not be necessarily direct. Take cultists for example.

They have gak stats, gak weapons and terribly utility... but because of that, there are more important things to kill. Sure you can wipe the table of cultists in a turn, but then you have to bear the full brundt of the other persons army, even if you went first. Likewise, if you know you have cultists, that cant kill things, aren't a useful screen, and don't have to ablate for some special character, you lose absolutely nothing having them walk into the table from reserves in the later game.

Marines cost way too much to sit there doing nothing in the back, so you have to pay an additional tax to get them foward (drop pod or rhino/razor). Razorbacks are terribly over-costed, and despite being awesome, pods are a one trick pony unless you give them the missiles, in which case, they are super expensive, and cannot even start shooting until turn 3.

Likewise, if you want them to be doing 'something' from the back you need to buy them a heavy weapon in which case, they can do something, as long as that something isn't move. Furthermore, if you want them to be a bit more useful at moving ahead, then you also have to make sure that you buy a ten man squad, since special weapons are only unlocked at ten for vanilla.

So if points reduction doesn't help a marines cause because of the whole "should be super elite tough guy, not en masse blobs of throw away joes." Wouldn't increasing the PPM and adding a wound be more of a balance? They still get instagibbed by one of the more previlant new mechanics, MCs, but maintain the super elite tough guy status. And gives them a little umph to the comment that in cover a guardsman and a marine are 100% equal in life expectancy.

 Goat wrote:
So if points reduction doesn't help a marines cause because of the whole "should be super elite tough guy, not en masse blobs of throw away joes." Wouldn't increasing the PPM and adding a wound be more of a balance? They still get instagibbed by one of the more previlant new mechanics, MCs, but maintain the super elite tough guy status. And gives them a little umph to the comment that in cover a guardsman and a marine are 100% equal in life expectancy.

I really like this idea

My mistake, having elite armies means you don't need as many models, and not needing a lot of models means you won't buy lots of models...
...well played GW...

 Goat wrote:
So if points reduction doesn't help a marines cause because of the whole "should be super elite tough guy, not en masse blobs of throw away joes." Wouldn't increasing the PPM and adding a wound be more of a balance? They still get instagibbed by one of the more previlant new mechanics, MCs, but maintain the super elite tough guy status. And gives them a little umph to the comment that in cover a guardsman and a marine are 100% equal in life expectancy.

Honestly, they'd be broken if you made any changes to their survivability. The issue isn't that they don't function as intended, its that they don' function in the current meta. They did pretty good when the meta was mostly about surviving though to the end of the game and killing, because they do those two thingsat least passably. Currently the missions favor sitting patiently on top of a pog.

Looking at tournament missions and books missions... you have to go get and hold objectives in the meta (I have no clue about local meta). Eldar can move very quickly to objectives... marines not so much, so durability can at least be increased by the ability to kill off units within the 30' window.

Eldar and Tau suffer at ranges over 30' but I really don't see the marines being able to much more than alpha strike and hang on for dear life to compete with Eldar, Tau, and even Necrons. Devastator Centurions have great range, but they're taking away a ton of points from objective holding units.

It looks like building the better alpha is the way for marines to beat the top tier lists... I hope its enough (and if it is, doesn't embitter people as games will be decided one way or another at the end of turn 2).