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True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Orks lose .5 Orks, the Marine loses .33 Marines. Orks benefit from cover against small-arms, the Marine doesn't. The Orks also have a higher maximum damage output, and aren't as likely to be gimped due to bad rolling. Counter-intuitively enough, Orks are the least likely race to be screwed over by chance.

davou wrote:

I play orks for the longest time, and the difference here is that our av 14 costs about 100 points, and our disposable troops cost almost a third what marines do for the same toughness/WS and more attacks in close.

Ork AV14 lacks the firepower of SM AV14, as well as only being AV14 to the front and having *very* easily hit sides. Ork troops are closer to half now than a third the cost of an SM with the CSM and DA books, while lacking the ability to engage the same array of targets or engage them at the same ranges. These things aren't anything new, it's been the case for multiple editions now...

 Ascalam wrote:
True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Marine shoots at 24" range... .333 chance to kill an ork. Orks move 6" and can shoot (really should have shootas on Boyz now), giving them a .333 to kill the marine... Um its a tie, but that's a ties that each lose one model, advantage orks, by a long shot

Marine shoots at 12" range... .667 chance to kill an ork (so we'll give it to him, though we shouldn't). 2 Orks move 6" and shoot, .333 change to kill the marine and a .583 chance to charge the marine (who, against a marine, will only lose an ork .25 of the time, but the marine has a .667 chance of dying). If change fails and an ork dies next turn, then its still a better chance the last ork shoot or assaults the marine then kills him)... slim but still ork advantage.

So if your point is that orks are better at shooting range if you play it out, then you're right.

 Vaktathi wrote:

davou wrote:

I play orks for the longest time, and the difference here is that our av 14 costs about 100 points, and our disposable troops cost almost a third what marines do for the same toughness/WS and more attacks in close.

Ork AV14 lacks the firepower of SM AV14, as well as only being AV14 to the front and having *very* easily hit sides. Ork troops are closer to half now than a third the cost of an SM with the CSM and DA books, while lacking the ability to engage the same array of targets or engage them at the same ranges. These things aren't anything new, it's been the case for multiple editions now...

The firepower on the SM AV14 isn't really the point when the main reason to take them is for the transportation of get close, let assault units come closer, because AV14 for marines is Horrendously expensive if you're thinking to use them as a gun platform.

Not to mention the 5++ on Ork vehicles from KFF helps a bit.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

The firepower on the SM AV14 isn't really the point when the main reason to take them is for the transportation of get close

In and of itself, yes, the firepower isn't the main point of the tank. That said, Land Raiders still pack fearsome weaponry that Battlewagons cannot match save for a deffrolla ramming attacks.

Not to mention the 5++ on Ork vehicles from KFF helps a bit.

That requires an additional HQ choice that may or may not be present however. It's also hilariously easy to get to that AV12 side armor.

I play Tau and I lose sleep about how I'm going to try to kill marines since I don't have the money to buy more XV8s, so I think just being a marine is fine.

alot of the marine spec rules need reworking not the army itself

 Ascalam wrote:
True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Actually, the marines have lost more tactically, since a single marine casualty cuts out the killing power of the marine list far more than the three boyz.... Not to mention, there are 60 more behind the one and a half that died.

 davou wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
True nuff, but our AV 14 dies 2-3 times easier and is only AV 14 on the front

3 orks to a marine is about right on cost, but shoot 3 orks at a marine and then shoot 1 marine at 3 orks - who loses more?

Actually, the marines have lost more tactically, since a single marine casualty cuts out the killing power of the marine list far more than the three boyz.... Not to mention, there are 60 more behind the one and a half that died.

Again, it's closer to 2 orks to 1 marine now (Orks are 6ppm, new marines are 13/14pts), and losing 3 orks in most lists is pretty comparable to losing a single marine, most Ork lists aren't sporting 180 dudes

Quoting the marine codex on vanguard vets: "It is said that were a Vanguard Veteran armed only with his fists and his wits, he could storm an enemy bastion and emerge victorious, and that with the bolt pistol and chainsword of his bloody trade the same veteran would prove superior to thrice that figure of foes." That's an example of pure fluff marine, but for obvious reasons this will never happen in a game unless you roll stupidly well and the enemy doesn't do anything for an entire game.

As it is marines are fine for the game as is. They could shave a point off or two or perhaps given some banners, but as long as you play smart with them they can still do well. All armies have major weaknesses or armies they do well against and by no means are all the armies/ units currently balanced.Each new codex seems to have a new toy or two that cannot be passes up so knowing GWs love of marines the new ones will probably get a couple new things to help them out

I agree that they are decently powerful, but they could stand to have a few more tactical gimmics... The fact that most of the tanks have rhino-sides is what makes the heldrake a bane;

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

Where did you get this idea? Not even close. On average, even when remaining stationary, an A barge kills 2-3 Tacs at most.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

Where did you get this idea? Not even close. On average, even when remaining stationary, an A barge kills 2-3 Tacs at most.

Maybe with ridiculously lucky Tesla rolls and really poor armor saves?

It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

 Psienesis wrote:
It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

...and then, miraculously, two STCs were found: one with better/larger terminator armour and a Knight walker for marines, and another that gave improved Rhino chassis. Trust me, it's coming.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

In the grimdark darkness of 40k technology does not evolve over time... a tremmor of warp/science/THEDANGERSOFTHEOUTERREALM come in and suddenly armies get units that used to not exist but now have exited for centuries. That, or I just throw bloodletters and daemonettes at marines.

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

I think people are confusing Annihilation Barges (A storm bolter shy of 100 points, 2-6 TL Autocannons) with Doomsday Arks (a meltabomb shy of 180 points, S10AP1 large blast).

 Lobukia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
It's almost as if all of Mankind's enemies are adopting new technologies, tactics and strategies to overcome their poster-boy saviors. Who'da thunk it?

...and then, miraculously, two STCs were found: one with better/larger terminator armour and a Knight walker for marines, and another that gave improved Rhino chassis. Trust me, it's coming.

Oh, of course it is. 40K is a setting, not a story. Nothing is going to really, fundamentally change.

Eagleace115 wrote:
In terms of space marine fluff I agree with you 110%. For the galaxy's best warriors who have been fighting for hundreds or even thousands of years they die by the handfuls.
If you really want fluff marines look up the movie marine rules. Your basic trooper has an assault cannon for a bolter with T6 and a 3+ feel no pain they can always take. The rules are extremely outdated, but a few changes and you could start running a few games or even start a campain if you really want that space marine feel. The only problem it's not balanced at all (especially if the enemy has a lot of plasma) and if you try and make a movie marine captain you could end up with a 6-8W T6 model, but it'd cost 400 pts and could only move 6' a turn...

That "movie marine" list was fantastic, I tried it out. Basically one squad was your army. They were such killing machines it was like fielding Rambo with Terminator with Judge Dredd = Epic Win. Made as a joke, not so much a joke now.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I think people are confusing Annihilation Barges (A storm bolter shy of 100 points, 2-6 TL Autocannons) with Doomsday Arks (a meltabomb shy of 180 points, S10AP1 large blast).

S9. There's only 1 S10 weapon in the whole codex, and that's 1 shot only.

I can definitely say being a marine is more than enough. Just got done with a 1v1 3k point match with my Salamanders VS Orks. SOOO many times I should have died from obnoxious loota fire, it was like oh 48 shots, 22 hits, 15 wounds.... aaaaaaaaaaaand ALL SAVED! It's not just this one game I'm basing it off of either. We all know no race is perfect. Space marines are the great vanilla ice cream of this game, the great litmus paper if you will. Not the best at anything or the worst either. Just a good army to try yours against.

I love hearing, "Oh you have marines?! Mind if I test out this new build I just finished?"

Like the one guy said above on pg1. Strategy isn't AS imperative with with the superhumans in sweet, sweet power armor, as with other more fragile races, but damn, if you play it strategically and plan your moves and set up well they serve you well.

Being a marine is certainly enough.

 BladeTX wrote:
I can definitely say being a marine is more than enough. Just got done with a 1v1 3k point match with my Salamanders VS Orks. SOOO many times I should have died from obnoxious loota fire, it was like oh 48 shots, 22 hits, 15 wounds.... aaaaaaaaaaaand ALL SAVED! It's not just this one game I'm basing it off of either. We all know no race is perfect. Space marines are the great vanilla ice cream of this game, the great litmus paper if you will. Not the best at anything or the worst either. Just a good army to try yours against.

I love hearing, "Oh you have marines?! Mind if I test out this new build I just finished?"

Like the one guy said above on pg1. Strategy isn't AS imperative with with the superhumans in sweet, sweet power armor, as with other more fragile races, but damn, if you play it strategically and plan your moves and set up well they serve you well.

Being a marine is certainly enough.

Wait, your evidence that the Space Marines can stand up to new codices is that you beat orks?! And making 15 saves means that they are still durable I dub thee Sir Anecdotal

Codex creep enough, eventually being a marine won't be enough. Maybe its time the marines got a stat boost

 CuddlySquig wrote:
Codex creep enough, eventually being a marine won't be enough. Maybe its time the marines got a stat boost

I'd agree if DA and CSM hadn't already dropped. Cheap boosts might be the best option for GW right now... or some sort of "return to the fight" rule for the whole dex.

There's already so much they can save against. Why boost them? Just because the other factions have a variety of ways to beat them now? Seems like a slippery slope.

 BladeTX wrote:
There's already so much they can save against. Why boost them? Just because the other factions have a variety of ways to beat them now? Seems like a slippery slope.

Imagine the outrage if someone said that about Xenos.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BladeTX wrote:
There's already so much they can save against. Why boost them? Just because the other factions have a variety of ways to beat them now? Seems like a slippery slope.

Imagine the outrage if someone said that about Xenos.

Yeah, I have a problem opening my E-mouth when it isn't asked for. lol

I think Space Marines should be able to pick up friendly Heavy and Special Weapons as long as they are in the same unit. I mean come on I was against my brother's Dark Angels the other day and his Plasma Cannon and Gun was easily picked off turn 1 so it was a waste of points. Marines are Devastators first before they are Tactical Marines, so that they are trained with Heavy and Special Weapons.