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The title says it all, with the current meta and codex's out there is just showing up with a 3+, hitting on 3's and T4 not cutting it anymore?

With the new codex's that have come out the amount of anti MEQ weapons is amazing, before these weapons were limited to "anti tank" weapons and plasma. Looking at eldar and tau, eldar have their quazi rending rule and tau...well are just tau.

In short my question is, is just being a marine enough now? Looking at the lists out there you dont see many power armor marines anymore, (dark angles have the cheapest maby besides chaos but im not sure on the chaos marine points) you only see bikes, terminators or a swarm of 4-5+ save models that are paying 5-4 points less for the same BS and WS and just missing out on the +1 toughness and armor save.

So thoughts?

Well, with the advent of bladestorm, Tau having an Ap3 str 8 blast and Monofilament rules that 3+ save isnt as good as it used to be

I think this is a great question. Honestly, I think GW is answering this very question with the DA release.

I'd be surprised if we see cost lowering across the board for bog-standard marines when the rest of the 6th ed codices come out.

In short: No, I don't think it's enough anymore -- but it's fun to see what kind of force multipliers we see added as a result. If the Dark Angels dakka banner is any indication, we could see some really fun new tweaks added when the new SM book comes out.

That 3+sv is still worth quite a bit, and T4 does still make quite a bit of difference vs T3. Most of those other units may also have BS4 and similar weapons, but they lack the resiliency, flexibility, range of targets they can engage, CC ability, Ld strength, etc that the Space Marines do.

That said nothing is "just" anymore, everything has special rules now, even putz basic guardsmen.

No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

The are putting out so many new units with awesome firepower that troops are just speed bumps, even the once venerated MEQ.

6th nullified transports (or so the meta says) but didn't exactly make bog standard troops more durable. It's the game of elites and HQs now.

ive been saying this for months now. marines are looking more and more gimped. power armour becomes more and more worthless.

little ninja stars craping on terminator armour is the dumbest thing ive heard of.

Yeah it really doesn't make a lot of sense. Players now are treating marines like guardsman. When I play SM players, and annhilate one of their squads, they just pull them off lazily and say 'oh they're just marines'. But I remember in earlier days and codexes, it explicately said 'a space marine force can't afford to lose many models, each one is precious'. So how did these superhuman soldiers, trained all their lives with enhanced genetics, become these expendable grunts? The rules basically adapted to where SM were the standard units, and every army adapted guns that could easily take them out, even if it's not very fluffy

I hate to be the one saying this, but could it be the fact that GW are trying to up sales away from space marines, in order to sell more stuff? 7th edition will have a marines rebirth

Reminds me of something a friend of mine does. He plays that one absurdly small elite grey knights army, then uses space marine tactical squad minis. He calls them "real space marines".

It's pretty obvious that being a marine is not "enough", but it's not that marines are bad, it's that they aren't worth their price, even at cheap CSM and DA prices because you can always spend your points on things that are better per point than marines.

I am going to wait for C:SM to come out before giving up hope on MEQ and running lame Scout armies.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Reminds me of something a friend of mine does. He plays that one absurdly small elite grey knights army, then uses space marine tactical squad minis. He calls them "real space marines".

. Draigowing? But yeah haha that's true

In terms of space marine fluff I agree with you 110%. For the galaxy's best warriors who have been fighting for hundreds or even thousands of years they die by the handfuls.

If you really want fluff marines look up the movie marine rules. Your basic trooper has an assault cannon for a bolter with T6 and a 3+ feel no pain they can always take. The rules are extremely outdated, but a few changes and you could start running a few games or even start a campain if you really want that space marine feel. The only problem it's not balanced at all (especially if the enemy has a lot of plasma) and if you try and make a movie marine captain you could end up with a 6-8W T6 model, but it'd cost 400 pts and could only move 6' a turn...

I agree, to a degree... ATKNF and Combat Tactics helps even more than it used to... SM players just need to be as wise as serpents... and use Rhinos and DPs. I am very careful with my marines, making sure they have cover (using those Rhinos and DPs as LoS blocking barriers) and giving their cover cover when needed (hello smoke launchers)... instead of treating them as invulnerable, I shepherd them around the battle field, and they pay me back by doing well.

That being said, they need something. Can't make them too much cheaper (and given the existing CSM and DA marines I don't think they'll drop by more than a point). Can't give them FNP or the like without crapping on CSM and DA... so here's the only routes I see for GW to keep PA worth it:

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad... or give them an upgrade that does the same (rumors of Apothecary Rhino are out there). Its survivability that Marines have lost, some sort of FNP seems to be the only way to bring it back... maybe via squad banners? Squad banners could add things like FNP, reroll armour saves, drop AP by 1, ignore cover etc... but I can't see it coming.

Another option might be to allow any model in a SM squad to pull a LOS! for any other model... (call it Brothers in Arms or the like) can keep special weapons and heavy weapons alive longer (some help).

There's not much else I can think of that seems plausible for them to do (slightly tougher rhinos, reroll armour saves, 3 points cheaper, better terminator armour saves... all possible, if it wasn't for the fact that DA and CSM codices tell us none of these things can happen).

There are rumors of dreads giving bonuses, but if they don't give increased lethality or durability to baseline marines, I don't think it will help enough.


...however, SM are still a ton of fun in club play and do well. Let's be honest, we all post like we play tourneys, but play almost all our games at the club/pick-up level... where marines still do just fine.

Eagleace115 wrote:
In terms of space marine fluff I agree with you 110%. For the galaxy's best warriors who have been fighting for hundreds or even thousands of years they die by the handfuls.

If you really want fluff marines look up the movie marine rules. Your basic trooper has an assault cannon for a bolter with T6 and a 3+ feel no pain they can always take.

No, the movie marines are not closer to "real" marines, their rules are just that, movie marines, complete with stunt doubles and the like, even GW said they're not supposed to be more "realistic" marines. This is just something that people have run with when they don't feel their Marines are awesome enough.

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

The annihilation barge is hardly a supreme MEQ killing weapon, it's a good general anti-infantry weapon, and a great light anti tank weapon, but methinks there's an exaggeration here, an annihilation barge on average is putting out 1.29 wounds on a MEQ unit, even if it gets its full complement of 12 Tesla shots, it's averaging 3.33 wounds. Hardly a stupendous Marine killing machine.



Really, I play a Marine army on a fairly routine basis and don't find anything particularly wrong with the marines themselves (the CSM book as a whole is a different story). Marines as is are still very hardy, especially relative to older editions. Most people don't remember 2E, where a heavy bolter forced a Marine to save on a 6 instead of a 3 and did D4 wounds if the model failed its save, or the original Rogue Trader where Marines were T3 and only saved on 5+ against Lasguns. Or 15pt Marines with no special rules but ATSKNF and no wargear but a bolter (no pistol, no CCW, no grenades, no combat tactics, no VotLW, etc).

Clearly the basic marine should easy mode every other army and having the best overall stat line in the game combined with the best army wide armor saves is clearly not good enough so to make it so the basic marine rolls because god forbid other races be able to hurt them without having to throw 2-3 times the points at a tactical squad.

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad... or give them an upgrade that does the same (rumors of Apothecary Rhino are out there). Its survivability that Marines have lost, some sort of FNP seems to be the only way to bring it back... maybe via squad banners? Squad banners could add things like FNP, reroll armour saves, drop AP by 1, ignore cover etc... but I can't see it coming.

Except that craps all over Noise Marines and Plague Marines, and craps all over CSM in general because we've got two horrid banners to begin with (Soulblaze and FEAR)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad... or give them an upgrade that does the same (rumors of Apothecary Rhino are out there). Its survivability that Marines have lost, some sort of FNP seems to be the only way to bring it back... maybe via squad banners? Squad banners could add things like FNP, reroll armour saves, drop AP by 1, ignore cover etc... but I can't see it coming.

Except that craps all over Noise Marines and Plague Marines, and craps all over CSM in general because we've got two horrid banners to begin with (Soulblaze and FEAR)

Sorry to say it, but in all likelihood, the c:sm book will crapp all over the face and even into the mouth of CSM. Even DA managed a fancier 6th ed setup than chaos, and that book is kinda crap

 Lobukia wrote:

Allow SM to by a squad of apothecaries that can be broken up like WolfGuard and given to each squad...

You mean like BA?

If that happens, expect to see a lot of red angel Space Marines.

Lucarikx

Does no-one remember the last dark angel codex? It was released before the last space marine codex, and was awful by comparison.

History could repeat and see codex marines be massively better than anything else.

Dark angels have long been the pre marine test bed.

Boniface wrote:
Does no-one remember the last dark angel codex? It was released before the last space marine codex, and was awful by comparison.

History could repeat and see codex marines be massively better than anything else.

Dark angels have long been the pre marine test bed.

That's what they get for being the 1st Legion. 13 is such a better number.

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

The are putting out so many new units with awesome firepower that troops are just speed bumps, even the once venerated MEQ.

6th nullified transports (or so the meta says) but didn't exactly make bog standard troops more durable. It's the game of elites and HQs now.

I would love to know how he managed to to get AP2 on his AB's weapons. It's the only possible way I can think of for that to happen.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Or 15pt Marines with no special rules but ATSKNF and no wargear but a bolter (no pistol, no CCW, no grenades, no combat tactics, no VotLW, etc).

Luxury! 15 PPM is a steal!

 Lobukia wrote:
I agree, to a degree... ATKNF and Combat Tactics helps even more than it used to... SM players just need to be as wise as serpents... and use Rhinos and DPs. I am very careful with my marines, making sure they have cover (using those Rhinos and DPs as LoS blocking barriers) and giving their cover cover when needed (hello smoke launchers)... instead of treating them as invulnerable, I shepherd them around the battle field, and they pay me back by doing well.

Don't Drop Pods allow line of sight to pass through them?

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
I agree, to a degree... ATKNF and Combat Tactics helps even more than it used to... SM players just need to be as wise as serpents... and use Rhinos and DPs. I am very careful with my marines, making sure they have cover (using those Rhinos and DPs as LoS blocking barriers) and giving their cover cover when needed (hello smoke launchers)... instead of treating them as invulnerable, I shepherd them around the battle field, and they pay me back by doing well.

Don't Drop Pods allow line of sight to pass through them?

Depends on whether you model them with doors open or closed (and let's not argue the legality of that again, that thread has only been dead for around a month or so).

Its quite noticeable how marines in general have dropped in their overall 'oomph' factor. But lets face it 6th ed threw things all over the place anyway, in 5th it was far simpler and marines did rather well.

Take the regularly cursed chaos marines... ok so they have 'problems' but i have no trouble with them nor does the ace chaos player at my club. And cult troops are a rarity these days due to the simple fact that more bodies on the field backing up the heavy support/ Heldrakes works far more effectivley with a bit of care when playing. However i will stress that is what I have come across in my club environment.

I think we also must factor in the fact that now more different styles of list are viable, there is a greater scope for 'bad' matchups. As most armies in 5th were meched up the troops tended to be protected until transports started to get killed, now as people are taking footslogging troops they are opening themselves up to being more vulnerable even in cover and with marines this makes their lower numbers a problem.

Marines are still rather good, though they are being shifted to a position where they are similar to the other 40k amries, though they still will be newbies first port of call, they might be in for a shock

I think being a marine is still plenty, the basic marine is still one of the toughest basic troopers in the game with solid stats across the board, immunity to sweeping advances, access to special weapons to handle any target and a respectable basic weapon.

Multi-kill guns have tended to get shoehorned into AP4 or less to balance for marines but finally with the Eldar dex GW have finally dared to say "Here is a faction where marines are a bad matchup" they have dared to say that the prodigal sons may have a chink in their armour.

Every army has a bad matchup, Eldar firepower hurts you more the more elite your force and with middling teen model costs that includes marines.

Marine players and GW itself are the reason this direction is needed. In the fluff marines make up a fraction of a percent of the fighting forces of the galaxy, in the game there are half a dozen dexes and a push to sell them that means in a pick up game there are good odds your opponent will be playing one flavour or another of Imperial supermen.
As such the game now needs to be balanced around the sheer number of them so races need to have the tools to reliably kill massed 3+ saves. I personally hope the Tau and Eldar dexes are more of an indicator of things to come, a bit of Xeno's love and removal of the marine blinkers is exactly what the game needs.

Oh and cover ignoring AP3-2 ion blasts, heldrakes, the Eldar's enormous number of MEQ killing options, and cover ignoring AP3 Colossi are all things that have joined forces to make footslogging marines generally a one way ticket to an early grave, this wouldn't be a problem if cracking Rhinos wasn't easy as hell.

People know that the Dark Angels can get a TON of invulnerable saves right?

Marines are fine as is.

Sure, they have more things that ignore their fancy armour than before, but their 3+ armour still works just fine against the vast majority of the guns in the game. Their statline is the best basic trooper in the game, and their points cost matches this.

Try running Orks, DE or similar sometime, where every gun in the fething game ignores your armour, and where a Marine can beat any of your vehicles down with his codpiece, instead of needing a specialist anti-tank tool like a powerfist.

Marines had it uber-good for a long time (especially with the writers one-upping already good books all through fifth) to the point that it was considered 'normal' for Marines to get (for example) 2+, 3++ terminators, FNP bubbles, JOTWW style instagibs etc.

6th ed they seem to be reigning in this rampant Marineworship, and bringing things a bit closer to balanced (a few abberations aside), so another spate of Marine or go home releases is hopefully unlikely,

I for one am enjoying the idea that xeno armies can be something other than target practise God forbid that a race that has been around for the next best thing to eternity has guns that can cut through armour!

To quote one guy at my FLGS (as it sounds a lot like some of the posts post-6th)

'They are xenos....they shouldn't be able to beat Mahreeeenz! Mahreenz need a buff to 2+ armour, and be 10 pts each.'

Yeah right....


(sorry for the rant, but marines are still just fine, and the sky is still right where it always was.)

 Ascalam wrote:
Marines are fine as is.

Sure, they have more things that ignore their fancy armour than before, but their 3+ armour still works just fine against the vast majority of the guns in the game. Their statline is the best basic trooper in the game, and their points cost matches this.

Try running Orks, DE or similar sometime, where every gun in the fething game ignores your armour, and where a Marine can beat any of your vehicles down with his codpiece, instead of needing a specialist anti-tank tool like a powerfist.

Marines had it uber-good for a long time (especially with the writers one-upping already good books all through fifth) to the point that it was considered 'normal' for Marines to get (for example) 2+, 3++ terminators, FNP bubbles, JOTWW style instagibs etc.

6th ed they seem to be reigning in this rampant Marineworship, and bringing things a bit closer to balanced (a few abberations aside), so another spate of Marine or go home releases is hopefully unlikely,

I for one am enjoying the idea that xeno armies can be something other than target practise God forbid that a race that has been around for the next best thing to eternity has guns that can cut through armour!

To quote one guy at my FLGS (as it sounds a lot like some of the posts post-6th)

'They are xenos....they shouldn't be able to beat Mahreeeenz! Mahreenz need a buff to 2+ armour, and be 10 pts each.'

Yeah right....


(sorry for the rant, but marines are still just fine, and the sky is still right where it always was.)

I play orks for the longest time, and the difference here is that our av 14 costs about 100 points, and our disposable troops cost almost a third what marines do for the same toughness/WS and more attacks in close.

It's gonna take something interesting to make marines competatively viable again, vector strike always hitting side armor gimps marines ability to turtle against some of the meaner things.