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new marine codex.

HQS = named characters and the like, chapter master, captain etc

Elites = dreadnaughts, techmarines, scouts

Troops = 5-10 man squads, each marine may choose items from the armoury

armoury = all CC weapons, power weapons, hammers etc, Combat shield, SS, special weapons, heavy weapons, bike, jump pack, TDA

If more than 2 heavy weapons are chosen = heavy support

If more than 2 special weapons are chosen = elites

if bike/jump pack is chosen = fast attack

Fast attack = speeders, flyers

Heavy support = tanks

then squads would have more of a choice how you want to run them. The only problem is then the special rules or vets and the like, but then you could give chapter tactics to the standard master/captains that you could select

I think being a marine is 'enough'.

Your bog standard marine is still superhuman compared to a guardsmen, its just that most gamers commanding their marines don't have superhuman intelligence.

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I think being a marine is 'enough'.

Your bog standard marine is still superhuman compared to a guardsmen, its just that most gamers commanding their marines don't have superhuman intelligence.

If you need superhuman intelligence to win with a faction it obviously isn't balanced.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

Said everybody before you..

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

Said everybody before you..

I have initiative 2. Give me a break

This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

bahzakhain wrote:
This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

You're assuming that everyone who plays a variant Space Marine Codex would start playing a Guard variant all of a sudden, instead of just playing with whatever Marine books they could.

bahzakhain wrote:
This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

That's not how it works. At all.

I figure they will add some special rules for different groups.

Could have some kind of "shooting discipline" that is like the Tau ability to supporting overwatch fire.

They will do the usual: give some points breaks for a few things and increase the cost of anything good (dakka pred), and introduce a couple new models.

bahzakhain wrote:
This is all stat inflation. Space Marines have half of the books, that while they would be considered an elite army, they have so much codices that it's inevitable other armies get much AP3, because they will be up against marines A LOT. One way to fix this: scratch all the special marine codices and replace them with IG codices (catachan, DKoK, Cadians, Tallarns and Elysian Drop Troops for example). That way they will be more elite again, since the meta will have a HUGE shift towards hordes and tanks. And if you give them meltaguns and drop pod them. Angels of Death will be back again, the original role of the Space Marines

Yup.

I figure the recent advent of AP3 everywhere was going to come eventually. MEQ makes up, like, half the books, and I don't care how long you scream "MASS ARMOR SAVES KILLS ANYTHING" because I'd take disintegrators or an Annihilation Barge or anything like that instead of wasting tons of shooting hoping that they'll fail armor saves.

In terms of Marines themselves not being as attractive for their points cost, I'd like to direct you to the fact that most competitive Marines lists try to avoid taking standard Marines as hard as possible (Deathwing, BA assault armies, etc). It's not that Space Marines themselves are bad, it's just your bog-standard Space Marine is really sub-par compared to most other options in all the books.

I find the rules =/ fluff arguement to be really funny. If we actually reflected fluff in rules then SM would never win because IG would field 1 lrbt per every SM, orks would field 100 orks per SM, and eldar would have flyer vehicles for all their grav tanks.

The real problem with all the SM tac squads is one of firepower not durability. If you could take 2 special weapons per every 5 then they would be great as they could do real damage before biting the bullet. Saying they need to be more durable ignores what makes the good troops good; ie vets due to 3 melta/plasma slots, grey hunters due to upgrades/terminator attachment and banner, necrons due to NS, etc. Making them tougher would be of limited use as then you still will be back complaining that they just get stuck in tarpit squads all the time.

They actually are probably a little too good for their pts in terms of stats, etc. but they just don't have the weapons to really contribute and so everyone takes the squads that have the weapons or some overwhelming defensive ability.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:
I think being a marine is 'enough'.

Your bog standard marine is still superhuman compared to a guardsmen, its just that most gamers commanding their marines don't have superhuman intelligence.

If you need superhuman intelligence to win with a faction it obviously isn't balanced.

I jest, of course.

However, Space Marines have some supreme strategic advantages that can't really come up in a tactical game of 40k. They are a lightning assault force. They go where they want, when they want. They can end entire campaigns in one masterful raid on a Capital City or enemy HQ.

They should never really be just hanging out waiting for Collosus shells or basilisk shells to start raining down on them. They should be arriving via drop pod or thunderhawk, destroy everything, then getting out before the enemy has a chance to respond with anything really heavy.

With that in mind, I think marines stats are fine. Its just that by virtue of the Eternal War missions in the book they can be forced into a fight they would normally avoid (unless of course you have a drop pod list)

 Mr. Self Destruct wrote:
MEQ makes up, like, half the books, and I don't care how long you scream "MASS ARMOR SAVES KILLS ANYTHING" because I'd take disintegrators or an Annihilation Barge or anything like that instead of wasting tons of shooting hoping that they'll fail armor saves.

Um...that is pretty much exactly how Annihilation Barges kill infantry. Creating a ton of wounds with AP- and hoping that through sheer volume of fire that your target fail enough armor saves to do the job.

power armour should be 6+ invuln.

even better, bring back save modifiers, AP system is slowed. and move the game over to a D8 or a D10 system. D6s suck.

I actually don't think the 3+ armor is the problem at the moment. It's the insane amount of weaponry that makes toughness 4 obsolete. When you have mass shooting of strength 5 or above wounding you on a 3 or 2+ how many saves are you going to roll on 10 or more dice? The saturation of rending both in close combat and shooting really hasn't helped the situation either. I hate to say it but Marine armies need a boost to survive in the 6th edition.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
No, I don't think it's enough. 1 Annihilation Barge can wipe out nearly an entire 10man SM tac squad in one shooting phase.

No, it won't. Check your math.

Said everybody before you..

I have initiative 2. Give me a break

Aww, I forgive you ;D

 Kimchi Gamer wrote:
I actually don't think the 3+ armor is the problem at the moment. It's the insane amount of weaponry that makes toughness 4 obsolete. When you have mass shooting of strength 5 or above wounding you on a 3 or 2+ how many saves are you going to roll on 10 or more dice?

This really hasn't increased that much, I mean, it's not like IG armies couldn't put out 70+ S5 or higher shots in the last edition.

The saturation of rending both in close combat and shooting really hasn't helped the situation either. I hate to say it but Marine armies need a boost to survive in the 6th edition.

Only Eldar has really put more of this into the game, and that's largely because their troops were god-awful without it. That's one army.

 Vaktathi wrote:
This really hasn't increased that much, I mean, it's not like IG armies couldn't put out 70+ S5 or higher shots in the last edition.

Really? Last edition? Hull points, genius.

 RayND wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
This really hasn't increased that much, I mean, it's not like IG armies couldn't put out 70+ S5 or higher shots in the last edition.

Really? Last edition? Hull points, genius.

Do you do anything other than log on once a week to make a vaguely insulting response to one of my posts?

Either way, it's blindingly obvious you missed the point of my post. The post I was responding to was bemoaning all those weapons that wound marines on 2's and 3's, I simply pointed out that such has been the way of things for many years now, it's not something new or recent, and thus blaming current woes on that doesn't seem to really be appropriate.

With the addition of all the AP 3/2/1 in the new codex's (fought my first battle today against the new eldar and holy , the things that don't have ap 3/2/1 have that psuedo rending thing)

Some of what I faced was lower in strength though, so its still 4+ to wound with str 4 AP 2 flamer, and it cost them in points.

To even it out a bit marines will just get a bit cheaper. Dark angels are now 14 points each with chapter tactics and stubborn, So I expect Vanilla marines will be 13 each with chapter tactics. But this will just add to the "meh they are only marines" factor.

DOOMONYOU wrote:
With the addition of all the AP 3/2/1 in the new codex's (fought my first battle today against the new eldar and holy , the things that don't have ap 3/2/1 have that psuedo rending thing)

Some of what I faced was lower in strength though, so its still 4+ to wound with str 4 AP 2 flamer, and it cost them in points.

To even it out a bit marines will just get a bit cheaper. Dark angels are now 14 points each with chapter tactics and stubborn, So I expect Vanilla marines will be 13 each with chapter tactics. But this will just add to the "meh they are only marines" factor.

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

Why? CSM are reasonably priced now against the other 6th ED codexes. And they got their fair share of marine killing goodies with the hellturkey

DOOMONYOU wrote:

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

Why? CSM are reasonably priced now against the other 6th ED codexes. And they got their fair share of marine killing goodies with the hellturkey

I think his point is that compared to TAC marines, who get combat squad and ATSKNF, CSM arent that good. So pricing TAC marines the same as CSM would be irritating. Don't CSM get something special though to compensate for the lack of ATSKNF?

DOOMONYOU wrote:

If they are 13 points I'd give up my CSM book.

Why? CSM are reasonably priced now against the other 6th ED codexes. And they got their fair share of marine killing goodies with the hellturkey

So standard C:SM MEQ should be 13 points, matched point for point with Combat tactics and ATSKNF against CSM with no special abilities at all, all because of one unit.



I have nothing more to say to this.

I think his point is that compared to TAC marines, who get combat squad and ATSKNF, CSM arent that good. So pricing TAC marines the same as CSM would be irritating. Don't CSM get something special though to compensate for the lack of ATSKNF.

Nope, 1 point less then DA and that's it. You can buy marks, and flags, but that's an actual cost that would take it above 13.

I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

3+ save on 2D6. "Retro" is already the name of the game, after all.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

3+ save on 2D6. "Retro" is already the name of the game, after all.

Could just give them 1+, thus making it so only AP1 weapons can deny them a save.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

MJThurston wrote:
I've said this more than once.

GW needs American Power Gamers to balanced new Codex's out.

"See what I just did to this list"

"Yep you just broke it."

"You let me take 3 of these new unit's with AP3 weapons to make SM's look like punks."

"We never thought anyone would take 3 of them."

There you go GW's thinking again.

Space Marines will get a 2+ save. This will bring them back up to speed.

Then what will terminators get?

3+ save on 2D6. "Retro" is already the name of the game, after all.

Could just give them 1+, thus making it so only AP1 weapons can deny them a save.

Works too. Would certainly go some way to making Terminators better against Plasma weapons, although it'd probably require some melee weapons other than Warscythes to be AP1.

I played my first tourney this weekend with Vanilla Marines (Aurora) Armor hvy unit.. I was 1, 1, 1 at the end of the day. I think the basic stat line for the Vet and Tact marines are ok. I would certainly like a higher toughness but it would unbalance things very quickly.. 6ed is shooty... Tacts and Vets need to be cheaper and have more access to heavier guns.. Especially the tacts... I would also like to see the Auto Cannon improved to AP3 instead of the same AP as the Assault cannon. I would like to see small buff in the Whirlwinds strength or AP as well... Vets are way overpriced 10man squad with jump packs and only 1 free power sword is 325, throw in some more power swords (4) and some Plasma pistols (5) and you are up to 460 points.. That matches my L/R and Assault Termie squad team...! And I don't want a dam Marine MC.. I'm a Marine, I kill MC's, not field them....! Ed