I'm just curious since their point costs are the same for just about everything in the vanilla SM book and can make use of broken tactics that normal SM can't like loading up on BP CCW neophytes and initiates in drop pods and stay inside them for a turn then assault out of them since they are open topped

They are not awful, just overpriced.

C:SM has the same issue. Break out the DA book and compare costs from that codex.

Those are the same people who think bugs are awful, pay them no mind.

The Drop Pod / Dreadnaught Trick is hilarious. I came up against it recently.

"What do you mean he's still inside?"

BT is probably the worst list in the game with perhaps the exception of the BA. It's the one of the worst because of what the models cost for what they are capable of on the battlefield. Having a codex full of overcosted units is one of the definitions of a bad codex. Another interpretation of bad codices are ones with poor internal balance, like Tyranids.

Martel732 wrote:
BT is probably the worst list in the game with perhaps the exception of the BA. It's the one of the worst because of what the models cost for what they are capable of on the battlefield. Having a codex full of overcosted units is one of the definitions of a bad codex. Another interpretation of bad codices are ones with poor internal balance, like Tyranids.

Except Tyranids are a top tier codex. 6th Edition made life harder for some codecies (BA being the one people point at the most...rightfully so) while greatly enhancing other codecies. Tyrands, with the addition of Biomancy and Flying MCs, may have gotten the best facelift from 6th edition, but if people haven't seen them since 6th dropped, they wouldn't know how brutal they can now be. Psst...they're pretty amazing now.

As for Templars, I don't have much experience with them, but people tend to use the word "suck" and "crap" to define units that can totally function and win games. The older the codex, the easier it is to dismiss it. BT are super old and have wonky rules that may not jive the best with 6th edition, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun playing, painting, and potentially winning with them. Just know that you're going to be running an uphill battle when facing off against the newest, super amazing shooty codecies (Tau and Eldar) that have started to define the new meta.

Tyranids might have top tier builds, but the lack of internal balance still fits one of the definitions of a bad codex. It's a bad codex, but not in the same way that BA or BT are bad. Although I'd argue that the BA codex has horrible internal balance as well. That makes it doubly terrible.

Very few books have good internal balance though tbh, Necrons are top tier and half their book is trash, a big chunk of the Nid book is bad and they a couple of competitive builds etc etc. Its actually pretty difficult to name armies which have more than one competitive choice in every slot even in the most recent books - Tau fit (just, Marker Drones being the second Fast option is pretty thin), Eldar almost fit (Elites are marginal, depends on how you define Wraithguard) and Dark Angels definitely don't fit

Just out of curiosity, what's the "assault out of the pod" trick OP is talking about?
I wasn't aware of that.

Yes, by the "internal balance" standard, most GW codices are poorly written. And I'd say that most are very poorly written. GW cynically puts in trap units that are mathematically garbage and hopes some poor sucker likes the models. It's not that hard to make each choice within a slot about the same power level. It just requires a little thinking and math.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what's the "assault out of the pod" trick OP is talking about?
I wasn't aware of that.

The trick I'm talking about is with the newest faq for BT their Drop Pods no longer require you to disembark after landing so you can bunker down a nice assault unit in their for a turn after landing and the disembark and assault the next turn since they are open topped.

While I agree that BT have some overpriced units (sword bretheren) they still have some very good choices that are priced the same as normal SM units.

They by far have the best generic captains since they have access to EW and grant awsome double cyclone terminator squads that can buy special rules like tank hunters. They can get tank hunter dreads which makes the hellfire loadout very useful.

The DFtS book also gave them access to stormravens and stormtalons.

I have found that DP lists to be the best kind for BT since they can pull sone nasty cheese moves with it and they save a few points on their pods.

EDIT: Oh and also being able to grant army wide 5+ DtW is also very useful

Is that all drop pods or just black templar? My blood angel friend would love that as he is still running an assault based army. Also i understand players being unhappy with codecs but at the same time i think it really depends on how competitive you are. I went from dark eldar to nids and absolutely love my the change. People say this and that about the codex and i would welcome some more cheese, but that hasn't stopped me from having a great time using them.

 Rotary wrote:
Is that all drop pods or just black templar? My blood angel friend would love that as he is still running an assault based army. Also i understand players being unhappy with codecs but at the same time i think it really depends on how competitive you are. I went from dark eldar to nids and absolutely love my the change. People say this and that about the codex and i would welcome some more cheese, but that hasn't stopped me from having a great time using them.

Just BT otherwise you would see much more assaukt based DP armies

Black Templars have always been harder to play, but riddled with "Easter eggs". This is still true.

Tyranids are terrifying, currently, with a proper build.

Blood Angels may have suffered in 6th, but its karma ( flying librarian dreads and land raiders falling from the sky, what?). You can still do incredible things with them.

IMO - as long as you are having fun, game on.

No, there's not much "incredible" coming out the BA codex. I'm sick of people claiming this. BA have more than "suffered". I think every competitive build got broken from 5th and nothing replaced them.

BA do have one really nasty Rock build left. People laugh when they hear it, but I know a guy running it to great effect. He beat me at the final table of Fight Club Atlanta, he lost to 11th Company Neil at the final table of a RTT in Charlotte. It's probably not GT worthy because it has a few terrible hard counters, but it shines in Regionals, where it can win 4 games.

3 Storm Ravens with Mephiston
Allied Vanilla or BT (he usually uses BT, just to further brag when he wins) with another Raven.

It's an anti meta build for sure. He hides Mephy out of LOS and runs him across the board to slam into something weak, or uses him to screen for his Troops (as Mephy is really good at killing most MCs)

Yes, I've seen such builds on the internets. Given that the units inside the Stormravens DO count against your deployment options, those few units you have at the start of the game are very lonely indeed.

Given that this list will almost certainly be automatically tabled if it goes second against a SW drop pod list, I'm hesistant to call it a rock build. It also doesn't help that the Stormraven sucks for its price.

The Stormraven is the Daemon killer though. There is one reliable way in the entire codex to kill a Raven...Lash Prince with Iron Arm. There are a lot more Daemon Armies at tournaments than SW Drop Pod Armies.

He also doesn't run anything in the Ravens (so with proper dispersion it's pretty safe from tabling via Drop Pod). They're gun ships. I mean I'm not pretending the list doesn't have "auto losses," but it's still a nasty little piece of work, and I've seen it (and lost to it) at the final table of a pretty decent Regional. Again, not GT worthy, but worth mentioning (especially since he's running two "dead" codexes and doing really well).

Oh, it's a horde of empty Stormravens. I must confess that I have considered proxying this to see how it goes. The idea of not having any heavy support until turn 2/3 still does not really appeal to me. This list does punish helldrakes pretty amusingly, though. Although lately, I've been having bigger problems with Eldar "Endless STR 6 shots" lists LOL WTF owning my BA.

The results may speak for themselves, but I find this excessively gimmicky compared to Necron/Tau/Eldar lists.

Templars are not awful. People consider them as such because they are not viable or competitve or whatever idiotic trite term is used for a one-click army. They require a lot of finesse in the list building, otherwise, it can become very easy to over build the army and make expensive units too expensive. As it is an old codex, there are a lot of nickel-and-dime charges things like spotlights and grenades.

There are also some really cool features, too. 20 man squads, Land Raider Crusaders as troop transports, Litanies of Hate, and two heavy weapons for terminators to name a few. It requires more than a little imagination to make Templars work.

To get a bit back on track, the new C:SM book will tell the tale on meqs for this whole edition. If GW puts out a book that just gets erased by Eldar and Tau like they do now, I might just sit out till 7th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Templars are not awful. People consider them as such because they are not viable or competitve or whatever idiotic trite term is used for a one-click army. They require a lot of finesse in the list building, otherwise, it can become very easy to over build the army and make expensive units too expensive. As it is an old codex, there are a lot of nickel-and-dime charges things like spotlights and grenades.

There are also some really cool features, too. 20 man squads, Land Raider Crusaders as troop transports, Litanies of Hate, and two heavy weapons for terminators to name a few. It requires more than a little imagination to make Templars work.

Imagination only gets you so far before reality comes back into the mix. Competitive lists are not one-click, or my BA would have *zero* wins. People make mistakes. But a person with a competitive list versus a person with say BT or BA can afford to make far more mistakes than the guy with BT or BA. If both players make the same amount of mistakes, the superior codex will win most (nearly all, barring dice) of the time. BA also have "cool features", but none of these features actually help the BA win in 6th.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BT is probably the worst list in the game with perhaps the exception of the BA. It's the one of the worst because of what the models cost for what they are capable of on the battlefield. Having a codex full of overcosted units is one of the definitions of a bad codex. Another interpretation of bad codices are ones with poor internal balance, like Tyranids.

Except Tyranids are a top tier codex. 6th Edition made life harder for some codecies (BA being the one people point at the most...rightfully so) while greatly enhancing other codecies. Tyrands, with the addition of Biomancy and Flying MCs, may have gotten the best facelift from 6th edition, but if people haven't seen them since 6th dropped, they wouldn't know how brutal they can now be. Psst...they're pretty amazing now.

As for Templars, I don't have much experience with them, but people tend to use the word "suck" and "crap" to define units that can totally function and win games. The older the codex, the easier it is to dismiss it. BT are super old and have wonky rules that may not jive the best with 6th edition, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun playing, painting, and potentially winning with them. Just know that you're going to be running an uphill battle when facing off against the newest, super amazing shooty codecies (Tau and Eldar) that have started to define the new meta.

Yea tyranids are good only if you run 2 flyrants and triple tervigon spam and build aroound that. Otherwise the army is terrible. Your relying on the fact thatt you get lucky with biomancy to get the right powers. With armies coming out now getting decent AA the flyrant can be easiy put down, as its save is only 3+ it gets grounded and its pretty much done for. As my friend plays nids he literly relies on those biomancy powers and if he doesnt get them then there goes the game. Granted my friend only has one tervigon at the moment and doesnt have great of luck with nids.

Martel732 wrote:
It also doesn't help that the Stormraven sucks for its price.

Couldn't disagree with you more. Those things are an abomination. Two are bad enough. Four? I think I'd just smile kindly at my opponent, tell him "OK, you win. Now please get that off my table so I can play a game with someone."

How exactly is a 200 pt vehicle with only AV 12 HP 3 and no ability to ignore cover an abomination? I'd much rather see Stormravens than Helldrakes (harder to kill, ignore cover) or Vendetta (Far more HP and fire power per army point spent)

Personally I just converted all my space marines over to BT (I knew the rumors about the new codex). They fit my preferred play style. Do they have things that make them over priced and bad. Yes most codices do but, they have cheaper lascannons, plasma guns, and drop pods. There LRC spam that they can do and the assault squad able to take all melta bombs. The special skills also make them a lot better. Now on the flip side the rest of there heavy weapons are over price and I have noticed with my lists that most of my points are sitting in the HQ slot (if I take a command squad). In the lower point games it is hard to compensate the over pricing but when you get into higher games its a lower deviation. Usually I run a horde of marines and neophytes backed up by a couple 5 man squads with lascannon/plasma. And vindicators can be really annoying for the other guy. Take 3 give them power of the machine spirit and your dropping templates on there front lines immediately. I saw the mention of the dual cyclone launcher and tank hunters. I haven't tried this yet but I think it could work better is 2 assault cannons with tank hunters. lower strength but more shots and rending could push you over the top. Also the "space marine death star (assault terminators in land raider)" can be improved with the ability to give assault terminators furious charge. Rhinos and razorbacks are worthless thought.

And also where is the mentioning of the ability to stay in drop pods in the FAQ's I don't see a thing about that.

The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Would anybody do one of the old 3rd edition style 5 man lascannon/plasma gun squads as troops? Not necessarily the only troops, just one possibility.

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

The_Slight_Brigade wrote:
Would anybody do one of the old 3rd edition style 5 man lascannon/plasma gun squads as troops? Not necessarily the only troops, just one possibility.

I used this in my last two games with black templar. those were also my first two games with BT. these 5man squads got annihilated. That being said I went up against a Daemon flying circus and an av13 necron spam list. sooo, i went up against some super cheesy lists while testing black templar for the first time.

But, I still see the value in these backfield fire support squads and still plan to field at least two, probably 3 of these units in my next game. I'm changing my tactic from footslogging to drop pods though.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
BT is probably the worst list in the game with perhaps the exception of the BA. It's the one of the worst because of what the models cost for what they are capable of on the battlefield. Having a codex full of overcosted units is one of the definitions of a bad codex. Another interpretation of bad codices are ones with poor internal balance, like Tyranids.

Except Tyranids are a top tier codex. 6th Edition made life harder for some codecies (BA being the one people point at the most...rightfully so) while greatly enhancing other codecies. Tyrands, with the addition of Biomancy and Flying MCs, may have gotten the best facelift from 6th edition, but if people haven't seen them since 6th dropped, they wouldn't know how brutal they can now be. Psst...they're pretty amazing now.

As for Templars, I don't have much experience with them, but people tend to use the word "suck" and "crap" to define units that can totally function and win games. The older the codex, the easier it is to dismiss it. BT are super old and have wonky rules that may not jive the best with 6th edition, but that doesn't mean you can't have fun playing, painting, and potentially winning with them. Just know that you're going to be running an uphill battle when facing off against the newest, super amazing shooty codecies (Tau and Eldar) that have started to define the new meta.

Mid tier, Tyranids aren't as TAC as Daemons, Crons, Tau, Imperial Guard, and Eldar are now.

Tyranids are also only saved by spamming Gons, Flyrants, Zoans and Biovores.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

 Icculus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

Pretty much this. If the FAQ isn't to be trusted, can I have my Drop Pod Terminators back?

 Icculus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

But remember, when the Black Templars book was written, logic and fun were still part of the game, not petty whinging about how GW never took into account every single situation imaginable...

It's not petty whining because I can go play a game called Starcraft where they do bother to think about different situations. It's called competition. There's no excuse for GWs lack of tight and balanced rules. They choose to publish slop.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 Icculus wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
The drop pods don't say that you must disembark unlike normal drop pod rules where you have to

Yep, try insisting this in a game...

I always insist my army plays by it's codex. Its not like there is a universal drop pod in the BRB. each codex is separate from the other and each has their own rules. If vanilla space marines have to disembark, then that's what their drop pod does. Otherwise it is a vehicle coming in on reserves, much like a stormraven. Do you have to disembark the stormraven on first turn?

But remember, when the Black Templars book was written, logic and fun were still part of the game, not petty whinging about how GW never took into account every single situation imaginable...

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

so what is your point? are you going to keep your marines huddled in a drop pod?

There might be times this could be useful, but I'm not too sure when that would be.

how about never. the only time it would be useful would be to lose an opponent.

It's useful because black templars are an assault army. why would i want to unload next to a firing squad just to shoot my pistols at them when I could wait and assault them next turn.

Well it's very possible that someone has thought of a use for it that we haven't.

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

Except that the Black Templar FAQ came out after the 6th edition BRB. The FAQ, for all purposes for RAW, is the correct way of playing the BT Drop Pod.

Saythings wrote:

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

Except that the Black Templar FAQ came out after the 6th edition BRB. The FAQ, for all purposes for RAW, is the correct way of playing the BT Drop Pod.

All they have to do is write what they mean and mean what they write. But they can't even do that.

It's definitely useful for a dread (how I've seen it used). Now he has an extra three hp the turn he comes in, and can assault out of his vehicle the next turn. Also an exploding drop pod can't hurt him. Also it's open topped, so he shoots from anywhere on the drop pod hull

It's also useful because a DP is open topped, sop you still get your turn 1 shooting. Heck, you could fire a dreadnought out.

Saythings wrote:

What's in the book doesn't matter at all; GW replaced the Drop Pod Assault entry through the FAQ in 6th edition. They removed the rule that explicitly said you have to disembark.

Except that the Black Templar FAQ came out after the 6th edition BRB. The FAQ, for all purposes for RAW, is the correct way of playing the BT Drop Pod.

Exactly. Who are we to discuss the how/why of the rules we are given. They are written as such. and if you think about it, it does make sense. It keeps the close combat guys protected before they assault everything.

Oh, yeah I forgot they were open-topped. I wish they made this change for all drop pods! That would be quite useful actually. It would repel a lot of S6 Eldar fire, since they can't pen it.

So for more discussion about this go the POLL in the "You make da call" forum.

I personally would argue against staying in a drop pod even though I'm a BT player. I wouldn't let you do it without a roll off for it. And in the codex after FAQ's all it says is units can not rembark after there disembark so I can see his point.

I'm NOT a templar player, and I call bulls on your wish to dice-off raven.

If RAW leaves a loophole, then it is fully allowed to take advantage of.

It might not be a nice thing to do, and puts you slightly into the TFG realm, but its legal.

can we bring the discussion back on topic? there is already another thread dealing with the beardiness of the drop pod issue.

The biggest problem I see with the Black Templars, is the righteous zeal rule. It can force your troops to walk off an objective or into assault range of something. Daemons lack grenades. No problem. Shoot some of the Templars and they'll happily walk out of terrain for you.

I want to play Templars, but until their codex is fixed, I can't see a way around this flaw.

Going to ground prevents Righteous Zeal, but of course comes with disadvantages of its own.

Martel732 wrote:
How exactly is a 200 pt vehicle with only AV 12 HP 3 and no ability to ignore cover an abomination? I'd much rather see Stormravens than Helldrakes (harder to kill, ignore cover) or Vendetta (Far more HP and fire power per army point spent)

Hmmm, let's see... It eats other most other fliers - because they are not AV 12, and typically mounts 12 twinlinked str 5 bolters with psiammo. It also has a multimelta. It has an assualt cannon that can fire 360. It can fire at two different targets via PotMS, killing your tank and a flier, or two fliers if it get's lucky. It's AV 12 all around, so there's no "maneuvering for a weak point"; oh, and it craps paladins or dreadnoughts or some other crazy gak without pausing for breath.

That's not even all of the crap it can pull. Now, deal with two. And a dreadknight. Ugh.

I don't have psyammo chief. I'm BA.

My success rate against GK goes *up* the more stormravens they bring. What does that tell you about them? The look on their face when the thing crashes with all those paladins on board is priceless.

Let me repeat this again: HP 3 AV 12 for 200+ points is NOT GOOD. It dies. Constantly. People aren't stupid and they shoot the damn thing down and everything inside instagibs.

And if you play against Vendettas, you basically autolose because they trump you that hard.

Necron fliers are good because there are ton of them, and if they die, the troops just come back unscathed. Vendettas are good because they are priced the same as *dreadnoughts* and have comparable firepower to Stormravens. Helldrakes ignore cover with two different attacks that are both AP3, have a 5++ invuln, and regenerate HPs.

Stormravens have none of those advantages. The GK one is a little slicker with the psy ammo, but its still a HP 3 AV 12 deathtrap. The Stormraven is an expensive point sink that starts in reserves and really only serves as a hedge against helldrakes or as the cornerstone of a gimmick list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and your Stormraven has to hover for the contents to assault. Hovering Stormraven = owned. Otherwise, the occupants have to deepstrike, which means no assault, and usually results in getting many pulse rifles or catapults to the face.

I most often seem them fielded by GKs - and they wreck my day. Contents are dumped early, if any, to avoid getting them shot down and insta-dying.

Game after game of them decimating my armies trumps your "they are not good because I said so".

True, my dice hate me, and I'm not the best player - but those things are a problem.

More usefully, what do you see drop them most often? Dark Reaper exarch on an Icarus has worked for me, but it's boring, and I hate camping and spending all those points just to deal with the ravens and drakes.

The problem with a loaded Stormraven is that its worth shooting an entire army at if necessary. All one needs is three glances. Not exactly epic. If they have multiple loaded Stormravens, now their turn 1 table presence is very low and you basically get to engage their list completely piecemealed. The loaded models can not possibly assault before turn 3. Under the best circumstances.

It gets epically bad when you can do something like drop a fragnought on their aegis line and frag everything manning the commlink. Then they get their Stormravens piecemeal and their list completely falls apart.

When they dump their contents early, they must enter by deep strike. That allows for mishaps and prevents them from assaulting that turn. Shoot them.

Granted, the GK are a more formidable list by far than the BA. And they get Stormravens in the FA slot, not the Heavy slot. But compared to Vendettas and Helldrakes, the Stormraven is really mediocre.

The lowly quad gun with a BS 4 model puts a solid 1-2 glances on a Stormraven. Note that again, each glance is basically killing 70+ of model. You can't get that efficiency anywhere else. Prescience some lascannons or MLs or something to get the rest of the glances. It happens all the time. Stormravens don't have saves like Helldrakes, which is why this approach does not work well against the helldrake. If you don't explode it, you run the risk of it regenerating the damage you did to it. But it sure works awesome against the more expensive Stormraven.

If you have this kind of issue with Stormravens, what do helldrakes do to your list?

The helldrake is a meta changer. You must have solutions. The Stormraven is not, due to its expensive nature and inability to ignore cover. Look at the math of a Stormraven trying to shoot down a Wave Serpent vs the cheaper helldrake vector striking. It's down right depressing.

I've only squared off against the helldrake twice, and, as I don't play a-holes, there's never more than one in a low points game.

The first time, yeah - it ate my army.

The second time, I brought a Dark Reaper Exarch with an Icarus cannon, and it was like that scene from The Crow: "Caw! Caw! Bang! Feth, I'm dead!"

People aren't jerks for using the helldrake. It's one of the primary features of the CSM codex. If anything, GW are the jerks for making the thing. I don't blame people for using it.

Try going against triple helldrake lists at 1850 before decrying the Stormraven.

I think that if you bring something to your play group that you know people have no answer for, that's kinda jerky.

If you bring 3 - yeah, you're super jerky.

Anyway, I'm going to see if Wave Serpents and Warp Spiders can clip the thing's wings.

It's a standard competitive CSM loadout. It loses horribly to IG air cav and most Tau builds. How is it jerky? It's just kinda what they do.

Warwalkers with scatterlaser/bright lance are probably pretty unpleasant in combination with icarcus/quad gun. Plus other fire from Wave Serpents. Prescienced pulse lasers are really mean.

If you really want to be brutal, get the Eldar flier with the two lances and pulse laser and then try to get the divination power that allows three dice for reserves, so you can try to always come in right after he does.

The Crimson Hunter is crap. I've tried to make it work...but it just dies. I might as well bring a -160pt list.

Yeah, most of it is the thing arriving at exactly the wrong time.

On top of unkillable Plague Marines...it's pretty bad. I really don't mind one. Three...? OK, you win - get your stuff off the table so I can play a game.

Plague marines are trivial for Eldar. You have S6 weapons and pseudo-rending on all catapults. Try killing them with imperial weapons.

Triple helldrake can be beaten. Happens all the time in tournaments.

Maybe weight of fire will carry the day, but my stuff doesn't remove their armor or FNP saves. Wounding easily helps. We'll see how much.

 VoidAngel wrote:
The Crimson Hunter is crap. I've tried to make it work...but it just dies. I might as well bring a -160pt list.

Yeah, most of it is the thing arriving at exactly the wrong time.

On top of unkillable Plague Marines...it's pretty bad. I really don't mind one. Three...? OK, you win - get your stuff off the table so I can play a game.

Have you tried the nightwing? It is one of the best eldar fliers currently. Ya I know its FW and that may not be your cup of tea but give it a shot proxying in your crimson hunter for one if you like, it can be found in IA:Aero so pirate away

Weight of fire is what 40k is about now. Quality is just icing on the cake. It's why terminators are garbage. So many lists can generated an unsavable amount of wounds against T4.

Martel732 wrote:
Weight of fire is what 40k is about now. Quality is just icing on the cake. It's why terminators are garbage. So many lists can generated an unsavable amount of wounds against T4.

Wel there's that and plasma is thrown around to any perky guardsmen that wants one

Yes, plasma spam is even worse for teqs, but weight of wounds does the trick as well.

Personally, I love FW stuff (well, except for the cost, utter crap quality, and shipping - but hey, why expect much for your $$$?).

It's not currently allowed in the escalation league, so...no joy. I find the Voidraven more survivable, and sometimes field that.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Going to ground prevents Righteous Zeal, but of course comes with disadvantages of its own.

Going to ground doesn't affect RZ. If you went to down, fail or pass, you'll either fall back or run towards the enemy respectively. If you read RZ, it's only effected by Pinning and Falling Back. GTG is not the same as pinning. Also they share a lot of similar effects they are two different rules.

That being said you are forced to run away from objectives either way. If you pass, you run towards the enemy; if you fail, you run towards your board edge.

A "good" loop hole around this, if you GTG to keep your Turn1 Drop-pod-Marines alive (from AP3 or better weapons) and you take a single would, you get the +1 to Cover Save AND you can assault normally the following turn. However, if you GTG and save all your wounds, you're looking at a Turn3-assault.

EDIT:
This is all lies. They FAQ'd it so RZ doesn't effect GTG and falling back units (instead of Pinned and failing back units). Do not believe my lies!

Saythings wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Going to ground prevents Righteous Zeal, but of course comes with disadvantages of its own.

Going to ground doesn't affect RZ.

Except it does, as per the FAQ. GW got tired of people trying to circumvent being Gone to Ground by Zealing away, so they FAQ'd it up. Can't be having any advantages from a Black Templars army-wide rule now, can we?

I hate it when I miss things in FAQs!! Haha.

Well, at least I can stay in my pods... LMAO! Jk. I can't decide if I'd ever even try to argue that tactic in a pick-up game or in a tournament setting. It's just too funny.

I swear I had a big post on this thread...

You did. I saw it. And I picked up most of my anti-meq rhetoric from 11th company. I originally thought the problem was BA, but they educated me.

Martel732 wrote:
You did. I saw it. And I picked up most of my anti-meq rhetoric from 11th company. I originally thought the problem was BA, but they educated me.

Couldn't have been the mods...they'd have told me.

I was largely poking fun at how dakkadakka seems to largely be arguments on the same few subjects that go nowhere now.

Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Saw that too. Probably modded for being off-topic or something. They're very...zealous. Er, I mean 'dedicated'.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Nurgle bikers (or Icon'd Slaanesh bikers) would be amazeballs autotakes were Emperor Deathsaurus with spikes not in the same slot.

Yes, I have much respect for nurgle bikers. However, they don't single-handedly change an entire game's meta.

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes, I have much respect for nurgle bikers. However, they don't single-handedly change an entire game's meta.

Honestly Bad times (tm) were on the Horizon for MeQs since the Colossus showed up in the IG book. The Heldrake continued a trend that culminated in the Newdar, the ultimate middle finger to MeQs and anyone who tries 5e style lists in general.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

It makes no sense on both a financial level and a hobbyist level not to have each slot in each army book be equally fieldable.

Did matt ward write the codex?don't forget they disagreed with rowboat girlyman which may have made our spiritual leige punish them for being awesome.

Da krimson barun wrote:
Did matt ward write the codex?don't forget they disagreed with rowboat girlyman which may have made our spiritual leige punish them for being awesome.

Ward was still mainly a LotR author back when the BT book was made.

It is just that old.

Martel732 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

It makes no sense on both a financial level and a hobbyist level not to have each slot in each army book be equally fieldable.

Why? Some armies good Elites and some don't, some good Heavies, etc. I almost can't figure out why Dark Eldar have anything more than Ravagers as heavies, they are supposed to run as a lightning fast raider army. If every book had the same availability for the same stuff, might as well go back to Rogue Trader when there were three armies and Orks were using bolters.

Well, internal balance is nice - because you don't then get total chaos when one ill-conceived kit hits the shelves.

The Terrordactyl is like nothing previously mentioned. It looked ridiculous when it first came out (still does, IMO). We expected a fighter plane, or maybe a possessed fighter plane...not something that it looks like it escaped from WHFB. But the rules were so compelling for an army sort of (arguably) in need of a boost that now they are practically compulsory. That's not "internal balance."

When one unit forces every other army to adapt - that's a hint that something is not quite right.

I still think that the predacon from hell needs a tail.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yeah. 40K is somewhat operationally limited because GW won't publish internally balanced codices in general. CSM don't have a fast attack slot, they have a helldrake slot.

Why does every book have to be "internally balanced"? They vary in power for certain units, its what makes one different from the other. Old Dark Angels assault marines were expensive because its not really a prime unit for DA. Did DA players complain? nope, they just didn't use them.

It makes no sense on both a financial level and a hobbyist level not to have each slot in each army book be equally fieldable.

Why? Some armies good Elites and some don't, some good Heavies, etc. I almost can't figure out why Dark Eldar have anything more than Ravagers as heavies, they are supposed to run as a lightning fast raider army. If every book had the same availability for the same stuff, might as well go back to Rogue Trader when there were three armies and Orks were using bolters.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm talking about internal balance.

Look at it this way. If two chaos armies fought each other, and one had Helldrakes and the other didn't, and one with them always won...something is wrong.

In my view, each slot in each army should have compelling, effective choices. This does not mean that all choice in all slots in all armies should be generic and interchangeable. It just means that some should not be SO much better than others that there is essentially no chance of seeing those other units show up in most lists.

 Kain wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
Did matt ward write the codex?don't forget they disagreed with rowboat girlyman which may have made our spiritual leige punish them for being awesome.

Ward was still mainly a LotR author back when the BT book was made.

It is just that old.

you mean when he was a decent author?He might have given the BT a nudge in the "right" direction.

 VoidAngel wrote:
Look at it this way. If two chaos armies fought each other, and one had Helldrakes and the other didn't, and one with them always won...something is wrong.

In my view, each slot in each army should have compelling, effective choices. This does not mean that all choice in all slots in all armies should be generic and interchangeable. It just means that some should not be SO much better than others that there is essentially no chance of seeing those other units show up in most lists.

That is not necessarily true. If one chaos player isn't even able to kill one flyer than it will always lose to a flyer. If the chaos player brought an Aegis for example then they can be decently ready. However the chaos drake is not as big and scary as everyone makes it (except when its spammed). Vendetta's laugh at all the flyers. Vendetta's used to be game changers (when they were skimmers)but, they eventually become killable and now no one complains about them. Same with necron flyers. Everything has a counter but no one knows them yet. In my meta I have never seen one even used but I have seen the tactics against them. If you have counter for AV12 flyers then you will be fine.

This was less a comment on Helldrakes than a comment on internal balance.

So, have we abandoned any discussion on Black Templars?

Don't worry, BT's will get a dedicated "Dreadknight" variant and down goes the Heldrake!

Or at least a model that looks cooler. BT players aren't picky.

I've got a buddy who has been playing BT for a decade plus, and his comments "I've been suffering for so long, I want to be the broken flavor of the month" So we've been having fun coming up with new rules the BT will get. These ranged from realistic, to insane, to parody.

I think my favorite was "Templar Shield. Black Templar Rhinos possess an energy shield that can be used to aid in movement. While in use all Rhinos are to be treated as Fliers. The Templar shield can also be used as a weapon, firing 1D6 STR 8 AP 1 shots."

The quad gun is statistically garbage against the helldrake. Glances it puts on vendettas and stormravens stick, but the helldrake has a 5++ to save and a 5++ to regenerate the damage. Flak missiles have the same problem.

Only volume of fire like Broadsides or quality of fire like MM on a STormraven or the lascannons of a Vendetta are reliable against the Helldrake. That's perhaps the primary reason its so feared.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for BT, they'll have to wait and see what the C:SM codex portends for the rest of the imperials.