I've never understood this.
Terminator armor is made to withstand being in rooms where open fusion is occurring. It's a bit over 1000 pounds in weight so you're literally wearing a car. It has a very strong power field that is augmented to even greater heights by Rosarius or Iron Halos or both.
Genestealers are bigger than any normal man should be, and about twice as dense. I could understand their claws tearing through steel with relative ease, but terminator armor, powerfield and all in a single swing? That's pushing it so far that it falls off the edge of the earth.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
It's a bit over 1000 pounds in weight so you're literally wearing a car.

I'm going to go ahead and say that most cars weigh more than that...

But Stealers are far larger and stronger than a mortal man. They are commonly described as stronger than a marine in power armor, and their claws are described as diamond hard. I think that its reasonable that they can penetrate Terminator armor, but its never a simple matter of just punching through it first time. Its usually a Stealer ambushing a Termi from behind and punching a claw through a joint.

Terminator armor doesn't have a power field. Its invulnerable save was an extension of the fact that they used to role their save on 2D6 and a 2+ on a D6 just wasn't as tough as the armor actually is supposed to be.

I'm going to go ahead and say that most cars weigh more than that...

You got a lot of cars that weigh that much. Most big trucks only weigh 1750 pounds.

But Stealers are far larger and stronger than a mortal man. They are commonly described as stronger than a marine in power armor, and their claws are described as diamond hard. I think that its reasonable that they can penetrate Terminator armor, but its never a simple matter of just punching through it first time. Its usually a Stealer ambushing a Termi from behind and punching a claw through a joint.

Diamond isn't very strong compared to things we already have like Graphene, fullerite, Carbon Nanotubes & similar things. Compared to what terminator armor must be made of it's nothing.

Well, plot armor isn't all its cracked up to be I guess

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I'm going to go ahead and say that most cars weigh more than that...

You got a lot of cars that weigh that much. Most big trucks only weigh 1750 pounds.

Would those be trucks made out of cardboard? The 5-person sedan I drive weighs about 2800 pounds and it's not considered a large car. That assumes you're talking about US pounds where I convert 1300 kilograms by a quick and dirty 2,2 multiplication.

What the hell is that sedan made out of? Depleted uranium?
Also a 5 person car? You crazy brits.
A model 2500 extended cab truck is 3/4 of a full ton, and most "car" style cars are 1000-1500 pounds.
I now realize I was using short tons. Large trucks are normally considered about 2250- 2500 pounds.

Target joints, or areas weakened by previous attacks.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Target joints, or areas weakened by previous attacks.

I'd be fine with that, but the official description is going through the armor dozens of times harder and hundreds of times stronger than diamond in a swipe. Taking off an armored arm or leg.

Don't genestealers have rending as the source of their terminator-murdering abilities? That only really takes things out through weight of many attacks. It's not that the genestealers are ignoring armor or anything, it's that they're just peeling it apart layer by layer to reach the juicy center.

Also, heat resistant materials aren't necessarily impervious to being shredded, crushed and sliced. Terminator suits are repurposed engineer and construction frames, which doesn't really make them invulnerable to anything.

It is ironic that something designed for withstanding the heart of a plasma reactor has a big weakness on the tabletop...to plasma guns.

Gosh, hate to be a pedant here, but a BMW 760li (sedan) weighs 5,013 lbs...

1,000 lbs is a 2 cylinder car like a Ford Geo or something. Even my tiny little Prius is 1,335 lbs.

It really doesn't matter, though.

Back to the topic - I think it's more a giant, ultra-strong alien armed with diamond hard teeth and talons tackling, smothering, tearing and twisting with all of its abominable might that is what kills the marine inside the terminator armor. I don't think it's slash slash you're dead... I think it's a long, brutal, horrible grappling match.

And, you know, it's fiction, too

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Gosh, hate to be a pedant here, but a BMW 760li (sedan) weighs 5,013 lbs...

1,000 lbs is a 2 cylinder car like a Ford Geo or something. Even my tiny little Prius is 1,335 lbs.

It really doesn't matter, though.

Back to the topic - I think it's more a giant, ultra-strong alien armed with diamond hard teeth and talons tackling, smothering, tearing and twisting with all of its abominable might that is what kills the marine inside the terminator armor. I don't think it's slash slash you're dead... I think it's a long, brutal, horrible grappling match.

And, you know, it's fiction, too

So according to Dictionary of Numbers (greatest chrome app ever), the weight of your tiny little prius is equivalent to a dairy cow...

 Happyjew wrote:

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Gosh, hate to be a pedant here, but a BMW 760li (sedan) weighs 5,013 lbs...

1,000 lbs is a 2 cylinder car like a Ford Geo or something. Even my tiny little Prius is 1,335 lbs.

It really doesn't matter, though.

Back to the topic - I think it's more a giant, ultra-strong alien armed with diamond hard teeth and talons tackling, smothering, tearing and twisting with all of its abominable might that is what kills the marine inside the terminator armor. I don't think it's slash slash you're dead... I think it's a long, brutal, horrible grappling match.

And, you know, it's fiction, too

So according to Dictionary of Numbers (greatest chrome app ever), the weight of your tiny little prius is equivalent to a dairy cow...

That sounds reasonable. I mean, you could ride a cow easily enough.

Ultimately, any sort of armour is still just armour, and eventually something will show up that is powerful enough to penetrate it. Even though Tactical Dreadnought Armour is supposedly strong enough to withstand even the impact of micro meteorites, the materials used in the manufacture of Terminator armour plating are the same ones used for standard power armour, so it's really just quite a bit thicker than the 1 inch of standard Astartes PA.

"The armour is massively bulky and contains a full exoskeleton arrangement of fibre bundles and adamantium rods to support the heavy gauge plasteel and ceramite plates which form the outer carapace."
- 2E C:AoD

"Genestealers, like virtually all Tyranid organisms, are characterised by their six limbs and resilient carapace. They are bipedal, able to move with lightning speed on their reverse-jointed, clawed lower limbs. The upper sets of limbs are distinctly different, the foremost pair ending in razor-sharp claws capable of slicing through even Tactical Dreadnought armour (ref. MGP.Macragge. 1stComp.qv). [...] Once the Genestealer is in close combat, it utilises its clawed forelimbs to rip apart its opponents. The three claws on each forelimb are incredibly sharp and diamond-hard, able to slice through bulkheads and cut through the thickest armour. Combined with the awesome strength afforded by the efficiency of the Genestealer's musculature, it is quite feasible for a Genestealer to rip its way through the side of a Chimera to get to the troops inside."
- WD #266

It is perhaps of note that diamond is also the material used in the tips of bolt weapon ammunition as a means to have it punch through power armour.

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Gosh, hate to be a pedant here, but a BMW 760li (sedan) weighs 5,013 lbs...

1,000 lbs is a 2 cylinder car like a Ford Geo or something. Even my tiny little Prius is 1,335 lbs.

It really doesn't matter, though.

Back to the topic - I think it's more a giant, ultra-strong alien armed with diamond hard teeth and talons tackling, smothering, tearing and twisting with all of its abominable might that is what kills the marine inside the terminator armor. I don't think it's slash slash you're dead... I think it's a long, brutal, horrible grappling match.

And, you know, it's fiction, too

I don't know where these weights are coming from but I can bench 220 currently and I've lifted the rear of a prius very briefly. I don't think that's right.....
In Space Hulk it is "slash slash you're dead" when you have ,quite literally, a wearable tank.
Terminator armor is in lore stronger than the other 2+ save units other armies have (besides MC's)

I always imagined genestealers "digging" through the armour. They just rip stuff off until they find a squishy marine inside.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie terminator?

 ThePrimordial wrote:
I don't know where these weights are coming from but I can bench 220 currently and I've lifted the rear of a prius very briefly. I don't think that's right.....

The weights come from actually looking them up. Try google. One of those american truck monsters you mentioned should weigh twice what my car does. A large modern motorcycle can clock in at 750 lbs easily.

But in order to not go further off-topic... the genestealers are so much faster and more agile than a marine in TDA that they can almost always choose where to attack from and when. Having the best armor in the world is pretty nice, having the manueverability of a sloth when attacked is not. The genestealer doesn't necessarily get through the armor with the first swing but it gets several more while the poor terminator is trying to turn around and face it.

Spetulhu wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
I don't know where these weights are coming from but I can bench 220 currently and I've lifted the rear of a prius very briefly. I don't think that's right.....

The weights come from actually looking them up. Try google. One of those american truck monsters you mentioned should weigh twice what my car does. A large modern motorcycle can clock in at 750 lbs easily.

But in order to not go further off-topic... the genestealers are so much faster and more agile than a marine in TDA that they can almost always choose where to attack from and when. Having the best armor in the world is pretty nice, having the manueverability of a sloth when attacked is not. The genestealer doesn't necessarily get through the armor with the first swing but it gets several more while the poor terminator is trying to turn around and face it.

Edited by insaniak. The language filter is there for a reason
I just looked this up and my car weighs 9300 pounds. I was wrong. I apologize.
I don't know where you're getting them being that much faster but marines and genestealers are about even in physical capabilities. Genestealers just have claws and glands. That's it.
If you look up fight scenes in the new space hulk game the marine will outpace the 'stealer in combat with equal reflexes and speed but more skill. It's when there are multiples your dudes start to die.

One of TDA's chief disadvantages is the lack of mobility. I already kind of doubt a Marine out of armour would be as fast and flexible as a Genestealer, but confined to that walking tank it should be a safe bet that the xeno can indeed dance circles around him. It is for this very reason that Terminator armour works best in narrow environments such as the tunnels in some Hive hab complex or .. well, the narrow corridors of a space ship. In essence, anywhere they cannot be flanked or attacked from behind.

"Unlike Space Marines in power armour Terminators are bulky and slow moving. [...] As the Horus Heresy sucked the resources from the Imperium, Terminator suits became increasingly rare, for they were exceptionally difficult to create and maintain. In addition, during most battles their bulk became a disadvantage against the lighter power-armoured warriors who easily outmanoeuvred them. [...] Terminator armour contains a full exo-skeleton and a complex arrangement of fibre-bundle muscles that allow a warrior to fight with deadly skill in close quarters, where agility is not of paramount importance."
- WD #266

If the new Space Hulk game does not reflect this loss in manoeuvrability, then I'd say that is simply one of the inconsistencies that are bound to happen in licensed products.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
Gosh, hate to be a pedant here, but a BMW 760li (sedan) weighs 5,013 lbs...

1,000 lbs is a 2 cylinder car like a Ford Geo or something. Even my tiny little Prius is 1,335 lbs.

It really doesn't matter, though.

Back to the topic - I think it's more a giant, ultra-strong alien armed with diamond hard teeth and talons tackling, smothering, tearing and twisting with all of its abominable might that is what kills the marine inside the terminator armor. I don't think it's slash slash you're dead... I think it's a long, brutal, horrible grappling match.

And, you know, it's fiction, too

I don't know where these weights are coming from but I can bench 220 currently and I've lifted the rear of a prius very briefly. I don't think that's right.....
In Space Hulk it is "slash slash you're dead" when you have ,quite literally, a wearable tank.
Terminator armor is in lore stronger than the other 2+ save units other armies have (besides MC's)

LOLOLOLOL were you waiting all thread to tell us all how much you could bench? 220 isn't really something to brag about

Yeah buddy, try google for the car weights... it's not that hard.

Terminators can do back flips.Ask the multilaser lord who lets eldar keep their helmets.

Its for balance, does anyone realy belive a normal gun could ever penetrate a few inches of space marine super metal? Let alone 1/6 of the time.

It would take highly specialised tools hours to get through that kind of material, so it would essentialy be impervious to assault even from these super strong aliens. Its all just balance.

In the galaxy where tyranids come from, tearing through 2+ armour is a common thing

A Prius (or any hybrid) has a quite a few batteries. Batteries are extremely heavy for their size, I'm not so sure that's a great example. Why not look up these cars actual weights? (Prius Curb weight (lb.) 3042, from the Toyota website) Also how do we know terminator armor weighs 1000 pounds? Is this a guesstimate or did this get pulled from some novel?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Terminator armor doesn't have a power field. Its invulnerable save was an extension of the fact that they used to role their save on 2D6 and a 2+ on a D6 just wasn't as tough as the armor actually is supposed to be.

The fluff I read (in the codex) states a power field generator in the Crux Terminatus.



As to the original topic, both are true. TDA is really that hardy and Genestealers can punch through. It just goes to show how strong they really are. Just because on the TT tbhey arn't all they cracked up to be doesn't meanthey suck in fluff. In the fluff they are the most feared CC troops in the galaxy or close to it. Literally having Death Companys gakking the bed.

Toughness, strength and hardness are different things. Carbon nanotubes are strong, but only in tensile resistance. Diamond is hard. Diamond cutting across CNTs will shred them.

It's because the shoulder pads on Terminators are not big enough to stop a genestealer from cutting through it with their fingernails.

My take: the armour-shielding is achieved partly through an electric field - much like the current electrically charged armour that the Brits are experimenting with. It's designed for high impact projectiles, made of metal.

But a chitin claw, from a creature that's just sneaked up out of your line of sight, scraping through relatively slowly, looking for gaps between plates, is very different...

Chitin wouldn't do a sausage of damage...

 ThePrimordial wrote:
What the hell is that sedan made out of? Depleted uranium?
Also a 5 person car? You crazy brits.
A model 2500 extended cab truck is 3/4 of a full ton, and most "car" style cars are 1000-1500 pounds.
I now realize I was using short tons. Large trucks are normally considered about 2250- 2500 pounds.

No you've just gotten mixed up. All those numbers are correct, but they are kilos, not pounds.

I blame the terminators for not wearing helmets half the time to look cool. Forget going through the armor, go for the FACE!

One, I love how there is two completely different conversations going on right now. You car people made my day

ANYWAYS...I feel that it would be more of genestealers hitting again and again. Weak points could be a possibility, but not likely. I feel that it would have to be repeated blows that eventually broke through the armor, not one swipe. Just wave after wave of chitin cutting chinks into the armor, much like a ax into a tree.

Thank you for clarifying the car weights. I was pretty flustered reading all that half ton nonsense.

If you want to compare terminators and genestealers, you need to pick an aspect to compare. You can't use a licensed video game + fluff + one aspect of tabletop. All three will have vastly different explanations. Examples: licensed video game where you win in the end; codex in which both parties profess how wonderful their unit is; table top rules and stat lines. etc

It is only odd if you think each dice = 1 attack. Now if you think each dice = 6 or so attacks with the roll being the one attack out of the hits likely to do damage. It get easier to accept.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

I'm going to go ahead and say that most cars weigh more than that...

You got a lot of cars that weigh that much. Most big trucks only weigh 1750 pounds.

Um, wtf are you talking about? A lot of big trucks like the Ford F-350, etc. are pushing 7000 lbs. My M3 coupe is over 3000lbs, and it's far from a large car.

Anyway, in the Space Hulk video game, a genestealer basically insta-kills any Terminator it comes into contact with.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
What the hell is that sedan made out of? Depleted uranium?
Also a 5 person car? You crazy brits.
A model 2500 extended cab truck is 3/4 of a full ton, and most "car" style cars are 1000-1500 pounds.
I now realize I was using short tons. Large trucks are normally considered about 2250- 2500 pounds.

See here sir you are missing some zeros https://www.google.com/search?q=average+weight+of+a+car&oq=average+weight+of+a+car&aqs=chrome..69i57j5j0l2.5833j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.google.com/search?q=average+weight+of+a+car&oq=average+weight+of+a+car&aqs=chrome..69i57j5j0l2.5833j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Da_Boss wrote:
One, I love how there is two completely different conversations going on right now. You car people made my day

ANYWAYS...I feel that it would be more of genestealers hitting again and again. Weak points could be a possibility, but not likely. I feel that it would have to be repeated blows that eventually broke through the armor, not one swipe. Just wave after wave of chitin cutting chinks into the armor, much like a ax into a tree.

And add that to how fast the genestealers are supposed to be, yeah I can see them throwing an overwhelming number of attacks, until one manages to go through.

It's possible that it isn't so much that Genestealer claws can go through Terminator armor like a hot knife through butter but it's moreover just a bad match up for the terminators. A genestealer can easily dodge his powerfist attacks and go for the weak spots in a flurry of blows.

It's like calling a Land Raider weak because a monstrous creature can kill it. Makes you think that it would be a better idea to send in guardsmen with flamers into space hulks. They'll die as easy anyway but at least they aren't wearing nigh irreplaceable armor.

 Flinty wrote:
Toughness, strength and hardness are different things. Carbon nanotubes are strong, but only in tensile resistance. Diamond is hard. Diamond cutting across CNTs will shred them.

This is the truth of the matter. It doesn't matter if you are wearing armour that can let you walk through a sun and do a back flip afterwards. If the hardness of the material is less than the hardness of the blade cutting it then it will be cut. This is fact. Diamond is famous for it's hardness but I have been in a lab where a diamond was dropped and broken on a concrete floor (expensive day as that was a 2,000 usd lab grade diamond). Nylon is a perfect example of toughness as it is extremely difficult to tear but pretty easy to cut. Obviously plasma guns and melta weapons exceed TDA limits in ionization and heat resistance, respectively.

Genestealers are able to rip through Terminator armor through a combination of hitting vulnerable joints, their specially designed claws, and their insane strength.

Without all of those components, a genestealer wouldn't be able to do it. If he was simply trying to get through several inches of Ceramite and Adamantium it would take him forever, but there are weak spots.

And even with those weak spots, the armor still has a chance of defeating the rending claws. This is represented by the Invuln save.


TDA has a 5+ invuln to represent just how tough it is. Its not that it has an energy field, its just that its that good at protecting you.

The TT game makes concessions because it cannot accurately represent everything. Go play a 40k RPG to get a better idea of how much TDA actually protects you, and how good Genestealers are at eating face.

I seem to remember in the Inquisitor RPG/Skirmish game, they released stats for a genestealer in some gw source, and we tried it out originally with 2 of them, but found out quickly 1 was enough..genestealers are the Xenomorphs of 40k...and are scary nasty.

Before I read the whole diamond hard talon blurbs, I always imagined that Tyranids were bio-weapons all the way down to the core, with bacteria that consumed a specific amount of chitin from their talons to keep them at a almost mono-molecular level, so they tore through stuff with ease, and when dead their bodies became bio bombs of disease and flesh eating microbes....ahh the days of rampant youthful imagination.

Grey Templar wrote:The TT game makes concessions because it cannot accurately represent everything. Go play a 40k RPG to get a better idea of how much TDA actually protects you, and how good Genestealers are at eating face.

Although it should be pointed out that the different RPGs also offer wildly varying experiences in representation.

Naked Marines in FFG's RPGs are commonly as resilient as the armour they'd wear simply due to the way how the Toughness stat works in their ruleset, and immune to a whole lot of things because those two layers of protection stack. Conversely, in GW's Inquisitor RPG, where Toughness does not neutralise attacks entirely but "only" softens the injury they leave, you can still take on an Astartes just with a lasgun. You have a rather low chance of punching through the armour (11 or 12 on 2d6), and you need to injure him multiple times, but you can do it.
This is also why FFG needed two different sorts of Genestealers - their Marines are too tough for the ones they added as enemies for Dark Heresy characters.

[edit] Does anyone know if TDA actually ever received stats in Inquisitor, by the way? I'm kinda curious now!

Was Tyrus (spelling error probably) in TDA or just PA?

Just fancy powerarmor, I don't remember any Inq Terminator stats , but who knows the fan base for the game expanded it a bit after GW abandoned it.

I remember a picture in the 3rd edition rulebook where a lictor had its flesh hooks burred in the chest plate of a terminator. The terminator didn't seem particularly bothered about it though.

I figure it just has to do with the nids being so quick that they'll eventually erode the armor.

The Tyranids assimilated the "aliens" long ago, so their bleeding nails go through anything!

Marine Hudson "this can't be happening man!"

In the Word Bearers novels, genestealers tore through Terminator and Power Armor like tissue paper and could pop a marine's skull with an almost instantaneous squeeze or swat off your hands. Pretty much anything the Rending Claws met, they'd go through with about the same ease as a power weapon. When a possessed Chaos Space marine and Genestealer fought, while the Possessed marine came off the victor, his breastplate was hanging off of him in flaps. The claws of the genestealer also managed to puncture and nearly tear off TDA pauldrons and scraped furrows as deep as their claws were into blast doors.

Effectively, armor of any sort was useless against rending claws, it's just that Terminators had more metal between them and a horrific death than Power Armor.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Terminator armor doesn't have a power field. Its invulnerable save was an extension of the fact that they used to role their save on 2D6 and a 2+ on a D6 just wasn't as tough as the armor actually is supposed to be.

Its not so much an extension as a rollback to 1st edition. In 1st edition the rule was a 2+ armour save which could be modified no worse that 6 - this being attributed to the armour itself. All Terminators then had the option to take a force field which gave them a 5+ Invulnerable. 2nd editions 2d6 roll was a simplified replacement to this, whilst the modern rules are a roll back to the original rules.


Regarding Genestealers, the original Space Hulk had several pieces of art of Genestealers literally grabbing Terminators heads. Terminator armour is designed to survive atmospheric pressure, intense heat and high power cannon shells, but the neck joints aren't designed to prevent them being rotated 180 degrees..

The old Space Hulk computer game had a great intro graphic of a 'stealer attacking a terminator - the terminator swung his power fist ineffectually and the Genestealer landed a flurry of blows, eventually ripping his helmet off and mauling his face. I always assume as a rule of thumb that when things like melee attacks or lasgun rounds go through something like terminator armor, they aren't punching through so much as finding weak points. Even for genestealers, the fluff on their claws going through power armor like butter makes no sense. It's much easier to imagine their speed, strength, and deadly claws combining to let them find and tear open the flexible joints and such, shredding the marine inside piece by piece.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Terminator armor doesn't have a power field. Its invulnerable save was an extension of the fact that they used to role their save on 2D6 and a 2+ on a D6 just wasn't as tough as the armor actually is supposed to be.

From Lexicanum


Cataphractii Pattern [8] : this pattern of Tactical Dreadnought Armour was among the first issued to the Space Marine Legions.[11] The Cataphractii pattern was used towards the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, both by the Space Marine Legions and the Adeptus Custodes. Although it bears similarities to the Indomitus pattern used in M41, it is set apart by a number of features such as the large, layered pauldrons, the pteruges protecting the elbow and thigh joints[9], and a helmet resembling that of Mark II power armour. Although it was rare before the Horus Heresy, some Legions, such as the Iron Hands, possessed a large number of suits.[9] It was functionally distinct from other patterns, bearing additional plating and shield generators, which resulted in severe straining of the suit's exoskeleton and reduced the wearer's movement speed, resulting in its decline among some Space Marine Legions during the early battles of the Heresy.[11]

Emphasis mine. Not the word additional, which means that other suits do have shield generators.

I think the way that sentence is constructed puts "additional" as only modifying "plating". That's how I read it anyway.

Maybe slightyl different grammar. To me it reads as applying to both. In any case, there we have at least 1 pattern with shielding.

Also, 10 teeth say that this is not from a GW core studio source.

You lose your teeth. Lexicanum puts the source as being Horus Heresy Book 1: Betrayal

I count Forge World as being a primary source on par with GW.

Then I get to keep my teeth. Different people writing different fluff. /shrug

No you don't. Forge World is a Core Studio Source.

Q1. IS FORGE WORLD PART OF GAMES WORKSHOP.
A1. Yes, but we operate as a small (but perfectly formed) separate division from the company that makes and sells the main Games Workshop range of products.
- http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Home/Frequently_Asked_Questions.html

It's a bunch of different people with their own website and their own trademark operating under the GW umbrella. "Core GW" is games-workshop.co.uk and the designers currently writing the Codex books.

Which also helps to explain fluff contradictions such as FW's blue Sororitas or las rounds "ricocheting" off power armour. It's different writers, and as Gav Thorpe once pointed out, this means different interpretations of the 'verse. The same goes for all the Black Library novels, given that BL too is part of the greater Games Workshop company. Arguably doesn't change anything about the fluff it churns out.

Which brings us back to Terminator armour, which still has never been mentioned to have a shield generator in a Codex or WD article.

The answer was yes, you lose the teeth.

core =/= separate
core =/= division

Your continent is part of the Earth, that does not make it Earth's Core.

Didn't GW state that all "canon" is canon as long as it comes from an official source? Ie, GW, FW, BL or a RPG like FFG? Essentially saying anything not fanfiction is canon? Which totally debunks the whole "core" arguement?

40k canon is literally anything you make of it. Because ultimately GW perceives setting down a single unified vision of the setting as a waste of time after seeing the clusterfeth the Star Wars EU devolved into.

Deadshot wrote:Didn't GW state that all "canon" is canon as long as it comes from an official source? Ie, GW, FW, BL or a RPG like FFG? Essentially saying anything not fanfiction is canon? Which totally debunks the whole "core" arguement?

No. Actually, Gav Thorpe said the exact opposite. There is no consistent canon, and your fanfiction is just as valid as the studio fluff.

Note that this also means that, of course, Forge World books, Black Library novels and FFG's RPG are just as valid as whatever it says in a Codex or a White Dwarf. The thing is that this validity doesn't mean much. At best you have greater consistency when you limit your perception to specific origins of fluff. For example, the Codex material is fairly consistent compare to what the many Black Library freelancers are publishing, not in the least because you have way fewer people (and thus fewer opinions), and because the studio writers are actively trying to work together rather than everyone for himself.

I've collected a few quotes and sources here. It even features a little thread discussion with Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who (very irregularly) posts here.

GW learned from a mistake?


*Checks newspaper*

Nope. No snowstorms reported in hell. No rumours of flying pigs. Boats stil required to travel by water, no one taking long walks off short peers to the next continent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Didn't GW state that all "canon" is canon as long as it comes from an official source? Ie, GW, FW, BL or a RPG like FFG? Essentially saying anything not fanfiction is canon? Which totally debunks the whole "core" arguement?

No. Actually, Gav Thorpe said the exact opposite. There is no consistent canon, and your fanfiction is just as valid as the studio fluff.

Note that this also means that, of course, Forge World books, Black Library novels and FFG's RPG are just as valid as whatever it says in a Codex or a White Dwarf. The thing is that this validity doesn't mean much. At best you have greater consistency when you limit your perception to specific origins of fluff. For example, the Codex material is fairly consistent compare to what the many Black Library freelancers are publishing, not in the least because you have way fewer people (and thus fewer opinions), and because the studio writers are actively trying to work together rather than everyone for himself.

I've collected a few quotes and sources here. It even features a little thread discussion with Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who (very irregularly) posts here.

So basically what they are saying is that all fluff is canon. And FW saying that Terminstors with shields is real is still true.

Deadshot wrote:So basically what they are saying is that all fluff is canon. And FW saying that Terminstors with shields is real is still true.

Did you actually read the link I posted?

There is no canon. There is no truth.

Exactly. So there is no truth behind Terminators not having it either. There is no truth about Terminators even existing. There are no Terninators. They are a lie. Genestealers don't exist either. Its a conspiracy. The High Lords are actually the secret league of Assassins from Assassins Creed who are really Templar double agents who are really Ork kommandos. Because Doctor Who is the evil mastermind behind it all.

Is this any less true? Not according to GW.

Umm a Chevy 2300 3/4 ton is the Frame they are talking about that weights 3/4 of a ton...
according to Chevy a average Cavalier weights 2300-2565 pounds depending on the model

Deadshot wrote:Didn't GW state that all "canon" is canon as long as it comes from an official source? Ie, GW, FW, BL or a RPG like FFG? Essentially saying anything not fanfiction is canon? Which totally debunks the whole "core" arguement?

There is no such thing as canon. You can pick and choose what you want. Some people limit it on studio source (whether that be BL, GW, or FW), others limit it to books they like. For example, in my Horus Heresy timeline, the books Horus Rising, Outcast Dead and Deliverance Lost do not exist.

 Deadshot wrote:
Exactly. So there is no truth behind Terminators not having it either. There is no truth about Terminators even existing. There are no Terninators. They are a lie. Genestealers don't exist either. Its a conspiracy. The High Lords are actually the secret league of Assassins from Assassins Creed who are really Templar double agents who are really Ork kommandos. Because Doctor Who is the evil mastermind behind it all.

Is this any less true? Not according to GW.

Actually, it can be. If you and your local play group decide that there are no Terminators and there are no Genestealers, and thus remove all of your Termies from your SM armies, and all your Genestealers from your Tyranid armies... you're golden.

Of course, don't expect anyone else to agree with your interpretation of the setting, but that's on them. There's very, very little "canon" to the setting. The Imperium is humano-centric, the God-Emperor sits a lot, and there's a lot of badassery going on. That's pretty much it.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Exactly. So there is no truth behind Terminators not having it either. There is no truth about Terminators even existing. There are no Terninators. They are a lie. Genestealers don't exist either. Its a conspiracy. The High Lords are actually the secret league of Assassins from Assassins Creed who are really Templar double agents who are really Ork kommandos. Because Doctor Who is the evil mastermind behind it all.

Is this any less true? Not according to GW.

Actually, it can be. If you and your local play group decide that there are no Terminators and there are no Genestealers, and thus remove all of your Termies from your SM armies, and all your Genestealers from your Tyranid armies... you're golden.

Of course, don't expect anyone else to agree with your interpretation of the setting, but that's on them. There's very, very little "canon" to the setting. The Imperium is humano-centric, the God-Emperor sits a lot, and there's a lot of badassery going on. That's pretty much it.

Exactly. My point was that as far as GW were concerned this thing is true. So why can Terminator shielding not be real? Especially when the "official"sources like FW say so?

Does it matter? Whether a Termie has a shield generator or not, a Genestealer tears through it like butter. Diamond-Hard Rending Claws > plasma-forged ceramite plating and deflector shields.

I was just making a point.

Personally I prefer the "Insane strength one punch feth you" idea over "going for the weak points."

I like to think my 20 genestealers still have some respect in the universe

Play some Space Hulk. You'll feel better

I remember a piece of fluff that said that the genestealers covered the tip of their claws with psych energy.

 Tyran wrote:
I remember a piece of fluff that said that the genestealers covered the tip of their claws with psych energy.

Never heard that one. Maybe Broodlords, Genestealers no.

Of course, we've neglected the fact that (in game, skip the fluff for a minute) 'removed as a casualty' does not mean 'dead'. The Stealer could just snip the power conduits to the limbs and leave Mr TDA sat there, still alive, but not doing much of anything until the recovery wagon comes along.

I'm kind of tempted to model a whole Brood of 'Stealers with oxyacetylene torches just for the lulz now.

(as a 'Nid player, I prefer the 'Hulk smash' version of events as well, Stealers need to be respected and/or feared)

 Deadshot wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
I remember a piece of fluff that said that the genestealers covered the tip of their claws with psych energy.

Never heard that one. Maybe Broodlords, Genestealers no.

It is a biomorph from the 2nd edition codex, but Genstealeres could not take it nor the Broodlord.

BunnyCommando wrote:
Of course, we've neglected the fact that (in game, skip the fluff for a minute) 'removed as a casualty' does not mean 'dead'. The Stealer could just snip the power conduits to the limbs and leave Mr TDA sat there, still alive, but not doing much of anything until the recovery wagon comes along.

I'm kind of tempted to model a whole Brood of 'Stealers with oxyacetylene torches just for the lulz now.

(as a 'Nid player, I prefer the 'Hulk smash' version of events as well, Stealers need to be respected and/or feared)

Except in the case of Nids, Genestealers in particular, it does. Genestealers are highly intelligent and leaving him alive isn't as effective as killing him. Killing him permanently removes him from the fight rather than disabling, which can be temporary if the wagon arrives early. In a full scale nid invasion, killing means faster consumption time.

 ThePrimordial wrote:
What the hell is that sedan made out of? Depleted uranium?
Also a 5 person car? You crazy brits.
A model 2500 extended cab truck is 3/4 of a full ton, and most "car" style cars are 1000-1500 pounds.
I now realize I was using short tons. Large trucks are normally considered about 2250- 2500 pounds.

A truck advertised as a 3/4 ton truck doesn't weight 3/4 of a ton. An F150 (a 3/4 ton truck) weighs close to between 2.5 and 3 ton (5000 to 6000 lbs) depending on loadout and age. He is wearing about 1/6 of a truck. If a bullet can get through with luck, a well placed strike can too.

i CAN'T BELIEVE that car discussion is still going on. Guess most cars are bolted together by ork meks and just shoved into peoples hand without telling them anything.

We'll see if GW makes genestealers attacks AP2 when the next codex comes out. Would be interesting.

http://youtu.be/gOrdOl6xoRc?t=4m45s

They don't need it. They have Rending. Thats what gives them the ability to punch through Terminator armor.

I could see them getting AP4 melee attacks. I think many tyranid melee biomorphs will gain AP values.

Diamond isn't very strong compared to things we already have like Graphene, fullerite, Carbon Nanotubes & similar things. Compared to what terminator armor must be made of it's nothing.

Can't let that go, the three structures you think are harder than diamond are all the same basic structure where each carbon is bonded to 3 other carbons. In diamond, each carbon is bonded to 4 other carbons.

Anyway, you should be thankful terminators, back in the old space hulk days, one genestealer could kill half a dozen marines without breaking sweat!

Many Tyranid organisms and Genestealers in particular are noted for having claws that are stronger than diamond and have a monomolecular edge.

Also we can question how humans can make a one-man suit of armour that can withstand being a room with fusion going on? Can hairless apes with tools really be that creative, the uber-sharpness provided by Tyranid evolution is far more plausible. There is little explanation of how the energy does not get through the eyes of the armour? Tyranids also use evolutionary methods beyond human comprehension.

In other words Terminators can keep their super tough armour which nobody can explain the precise workings of IF Genestealers can rip it apart.

Tyranids are from a different galaxy and have adapted to a completely different set of rules when it comes to combat and warfare...who knows what organisms they adapted to fight thousands or millions of years ago. It's entirely possible that a biological organism from another galaxy would be capable of some crazy stuff not seen in our Milky Way.

At a very basic level its pressure per square inch I think (or in the case of monomolecular Stealer claws - pressure per square millimeter).
If you have a small enough point and apply enough pressure you can pierce pretty much anything.
We have no idea how much pressure a Stealer can exert via its muscular structure.
Saw one of those Discovery shows lately "animal X Vs animal Y" in a fight thingys.
I recall them saying something like Crocodiles (and sharks I think) have a form of muscle in their jaws that isnt found in any other species and has uttelry immense pressure/bite ability.
Stealers have possible adapted a hyper version of this. Couple that with their monomolecular claws and Termi armor is in trouble.

In short: physics.

Sorry... pedantic hat is on today.

Molecules are measured in angstroms, or 10^-10m.

Pressure by definition is a force per unit area.

Otherwise I concur with your post entirely

No worries Flinty!
Physics was never my strong point in school

 jifel wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
It's a bit over 1000 pounds in weight so you're literally wearing a car.

I'm going to go ahead and say that most cars weigh more than that...

the average car (american, because foreign cars typically weigh less) is 4,000 pounds.

so you'd only be wearing the engine and the front chasis.

still a considerable sum

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Terminator armor doesn't have a power field. Its invulnerable save was an extension of the fact that they used to role their save on 2D6 and a 2+ on a D6 just wasn't as tough as the armor actually is supposed to be.

I think it does. The symbol built into the left or right (I forget) maintains a weak force field around them.


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 Leech wrote:
Many Tyranid organisms and Genestealers in particular are noted for having claws that are stronger than diamond and have a monomolecular edge.

Also we can question how humans can make a one-man suit of armour that can withstand being a room with fusion going on? Can hairless apes with tools really be that creative, the uber-sharpness provided by Tyranid evolution is far more plausible. There is little explanation of how the energy does not get through the eyes of the armour? Tyranids also use evolutionary methods beyond human comprehension.

In other words Terminators can keep their super tough armour which nobody can explain the precise workings of IF Genestealers can rip it apart.

Really really pedantic here but humans aren't hairless...

BaconUprising wrote:I think it does. The symbol built into the left or right (I forget) maintains a weak force field around them.

The Crux Terminatus? I think you may be confusing this with another piece of equipment.
Though I won't dispute the possibility that perhaps this is just a case of licensed fluff once again contradicting the studio material.

Counter pedantry power go!

Dictionary definition of Hairless appears to include "little or no hair". Compared to pretty much all other apes we are hairless. My understanding is also that "hairless ape" is a pretty standard euphemism for humans.

And rest

Counter counter pedantry
our bodies are covered extensively in hair, the fact that it is shorter than most hominadae does not mean we can be defined as having "little" a more sparse covering admittedly but hardly little. It also covers our head in usually substantial length. I would hardly say the length or lack of would constitute the term "hairless".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow we've gone off track

Humans are known as hairless apes due to our lack of it compared with other primates. It is a common term for humans.

Hairless in reference to humans is also a reference to the fact that human hair serves no actual purpose. It is not dense enough to be used as insulation effectively in a cold climate. It has no camo uses. It also impairs movement when swimming. Swimming is an ability that humans have evolved with.

The term hairless when applied to humans is a way of pointing out flaws in the human form without going into exaustive detail.

We are not hairless in the sense tha you describe it. More "furless" for want of a better word.

How did we get from armour plating to human hair?

Carbon! Both contain Carbon!

 Grey Templar wrote:
Carbon! Both contain Carbon!

Pretty much everything does.....