Blood Angels have a unique ability to bring 63 marines to the table at 1750. All of them have jump packs, 3 of them are jump priests and 1 is a librarian. The squads have melta guns, there are 12 in the list I've got.

Do you think this would stack up against some of the more competitive lists? Here's what it looks like at 1660... some upgrades will bring it up to snuff.

Librarian, level 2, Shield of Sanguinus, str 10 power (so he can go strength 10, would a MC and force weapon it)

3 Jump Sanguinary Priests

6x 10 Assault squad, 2 melta guns


The idea is 1st turn you are already 12" + D6" up the field. All fo your guys are within 6" of the librarian and at least 1 priest. That means everyone has a 3+ armor, 5+ cover and 5+ FNP automatically.

I figure wave serpent spam would be hard pressed to fight this. I played wave serpents in 5th and I know jump pack lists would run all over me. Granted, this was before TL everything str 6 rending and str 7 bull crap but I had a rough time against jumpers. You're mobile enough to multi-assault threats like flesh hounds and the priest is your go to for killing big MCs.

With the push to shooting-based lists, I see fast close combat armies taking a big step forward. I don't care who you are, nothing is more deadly in 40k than a sweeping advance. And all of the best shooting armies right now are Xenos.

It's spammy... I don't like spam. But I have the models. Do you think it's good on its own or is it more of a spoiler list at a tournament?

Seems a bit lacking when it comes to hitting power.

No power weapons, for the most part only boltpistols, and a (comparatively) low atack count.


Would like to hear how it acted on the table however.

No, this doesn't work. I can safely say this as someone who almost exclusively uses jump-pack Blood Angels for the hell of it and because I'm stubborn - though admittedly I do use some of the more expensive options like Death Company so at 1750 points I'd have closer to 40-45 models.

To be completely clear - I can still do well against a couple of the older Codexes in the right circumstances, like say Orks or Nids. Then there are older Codexes that were always a bad matchup - Space Wolves still muller us through the combination of Grey Hunter craziness and Long Fangs spamming, which are both so damn cheap that having extra bodies doesn't account for much. Imperial Guard were always going to blow us straight out of the water and deep-striking in to take advantage of getting the alpha strike was the only way to pull that off - we can no longer do that with a maximum 50% reserve limit.

The newer armies have a combination of increased firepower and cheaper units across the board - so that numbers advantage you mention becomes less true with every Codex that gets released. We only ever had it against elite-style armies like Deathwing or Wraithhosts anyway.

Short answer - our units aren't actually all that cheap. If you take jump packs on everything, even with the most basic Assault Marines, those new armies that don't still outnumber us anyway are going to be bringing enough tricks and firepower that we still get murdered anyway.

arent jumppack marines like 2x the cost or close to it? and have less options for toys?

thats the overall problem with jump units, theyre usually overpriced to be spammed.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

With the push to shooting-based lists, I see fast close combat armies taking a big step forward. I don't care who you are, nothing is more deadly in 40k than a sweeping advance. And all of the best shooting armies right now are Xenos.

Problem is that they are shooty armies with neat tricks against assaults. In an edition where assault has got the nerfhammer in the face anyways.

Your BA army would beat a shooty Ork, a non-Wolfpack IG and even a DE army. But against the Tau Master Race? Wiped Out BA at the start of Turn 3 or 4. At 1660 points I have 3 Riptides and 2 Sky Rays to deliver the S8 AP2/3 love alongside the 40 Fire Warriors, the Ethereal and 21 Pathfinders. There is no way in hell that 63 MEQ can survive the firepower of that army.

But again, if you avoid the Tau Master Race then the army could work, I can see the potential in it (though I'm not a BA player) .

Isn't it that the Heldrake is the sole reason why BA jump spam is not the best option?
Or does it really struggle against other things?

Back in the 5th ed I was thinking about starting such a force after getting all the things I wanted for my Eldar army but in 6th ed somehow I lost interest.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
arent jumppack marines like 2x the cost or close to it? and have less options for toys?

thats the overall problem with jump units, theyre usually overpriced to be spammed.

Try 2 points more. 18 points for a BA assault marine, 16 pts for a BA Tac.

wow thats insanely cheap compared to the normal thing.

Guess im just used to Stormboyz which are DOUBLE the cost of Boyz for the speed and dont even have any big guns or armor options

 AtoMaki wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

With the push to shooting-based lists, I see fast close combat armies taking a big step forward. I don't care who you are, nothing is more deadly in 40k than a sweeping advance. And all of the best shooting armies right now are Xenos.

Problem is that they are shooty armies with neat tricks against assaults. In an edition where assault has got the nerfhammer in the face anyways.

Your BA army would beat a shooty Ork, a non-Wolfpack IG and even a DE army. But against the Tau Master Race? Wiped Out BA at the start of Turn 3 or 4. At 1660 points I have 3 Riptides and 2 Sky Rays to deliver the S8 AP2/3 love alongside the 40 Fire Warriors, the Ethereal and 21 Pathfinders. There is no way in hell that 63 MEQ can survive the firepower of that army.

But again, if you avoid the Tau Master Race then the army could work, I can see the potential in it (though I'm not a BA player) .

40 firewarriors * 4 shots = 160 shots. I'll give you BS 5 which means 133 hit. Out of that 88.66666 wound which is 29.6 after saves. Then, 19.7 after FNP. After that, the BA are on you with 43 marines which is more than enough to kill all of that (minus the riptides). Over watch from all 160 (which wouldn't happen, I'd assault the outer units first that might only get overwatch from 1 other squad) kills 4 marines. So right about 40 marines crashing into Tau lines turn 2 is bad biz.

I played with my Tyranids against 3 Riptides and 3 Hammerheads last weekend and, to be honest, those 6 models did very little. You might get a few hits with the riptides but they really don't seem to do much.

I messed up the math btw... too lazy to retype it all out but I thought you had a fireblade in there. I faced one this weekend... It's like 15 wounds after FNP. Followed by 3 dead on overwatch.


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And if I can space myself out right, I can avoid the 15" rapid fire completely with my jump packs.

40 shots at range is 5 wounds.

Again, all math is calculated with BS 5.

Tough matchup, but winable. That is a rough list though, a good list to run test games against. Depending on the riptides, it could really shift the game.





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Heldrake, let's say it hits 5 marines with the flamer. With FNP that's only 2.7777 wounds.

The vector strike... with the average roll of 3 hits is 1.66666666 wounds with FNP.


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Venoms

12 shots
8 hit
4 wound
1.3333 get past armor
.88888 get past FNP


Guided

1.185 wounds.



Waveserpent

TL everything
3.55555 hits with scatter lasers
2.96 wounds
.65 actually get past saves

TL Shuriken Cannon
.49 wounds
Any rends = .44444 wounds (cover from Shield, FNP)

Force Shield (assume 4.5 shots)
.74 wounds

Yeah I think you missed the large ST 9 AP 2 blasts from the riptides in there. Tau massacre BA jumpers. Been there, done that. They also can back up and shoot, giving them another turn of shooting. Curtains.

Librarian, level 2, Shield of Sanguinus, str 10 power (so he can go strength 10, would a MC and force weapon it)

Why not Diviniation and an axe? It's so much better.
Your list counts 64 models, not 63

And it might work, just depends on where and what you play against.
Don't expect to win tournaments, but you will have fun I think.

A year ago? Sure. Post Helldrake/CSM FAQ? No chance.

If you opt for str 9, 1 out of 3 will take a wound each turn.

I really wasn't impressed with the template this weekend... I bet you'd get 3 per 'hit', less if you roll wide.

To put it into perspective, I puppet mastered a riptide every turn and he fire them at me every turn and their total kill count was 1 gant, 1 fire warrior and 1 spore pod. They killed a few gargoyles in assault and then died. Granted, he had no markerlights but blasts are not that great especially if you're BS 3


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Kangodo wrote:

Librarian, level 2, Shield of Sanguinus, str 10 power (so he can go strength 10, would a MC and force weapon it)

Why not Diviniation and an axe? It's so much better.
Your list counts 64 models, not 63

And it might work, just depends on where and what you play against.
Don't expect to win tournaments, but you will have fun I think.

Because I lose shield of sanguinius... lol. I NEED that power! Str 10 will help with the Wraithknights I'm bound to face.


Maybe if I take a whirlwind with the remaining points? That would give me a nice str 5 ap 4 template to blast tau away with from affar. If that's my hardest counter maybe I should do that.

Wraithknights can challenge out your libby anyway and are init 5. They must be shot.

I prefer a 33% chance on a 4+ inv over a 100% 5+ cover mostly because the other power will be so much better than what the codex can give.
And you have plenty of melta that should work, maybe even give some meltabombs to sergeants?
That S10 might not be needed.

I have 60 points left in that list when all Sergeants have meltabombs, so I would use those points to upgrade the weapons on the priests and Librarian.
Maybe a few melta/plasma-pistols and such.

Martel732 wrote:
Wraithknights can challenge out your libby anyway and are init 5. They must be shot.

Is that true? I may be wrong, but I thought they were I4 and non-characters.


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Kangodo wrote:
I prefer a 33% chance on a 4+ inv over a 100% 5+ cover mostly because the other power will be so much better than what the codex can give.
And you have plenty of melta that should work, maybe even give some meltabombs to sergeants?
That S10 might not be needed.

I have 60 points left in that list when all Sergeants have meltabombs, so I would use those points to upgrade the weapons on the priests and Librarian.
Maybe a few melta/plasma-pistols and such.

oh, well you are much more of a gambler than I am! haha

Of course, with adequate terrain 5+ wouldn't be too hard to get. I just like it because it is the whole unit rather than who is obscured.

I'll play around with it.

They are non-character and I5, so you are both right

It's not just about gambling.
But so many stuff ignore cover nowadays that 5++ is nothing special any more.
Rerolling to hits, ignoring cover, 3D6 for Reserves and 4++ < It all seems so perfect!

The divination-tree is the only thing that is actually keeping me in the BA instead of going Ravenguard right away.

I think Ravenguard will have the strengths of a new codex behind them and the added ability to reroll charge ranges (essentially fleet)... but no FNP will mean a lot more dead marines.

Besides, I don't think they'll have them as troops. I dunno, I really want them to keep jump pack armies for blood angels.

BA isnt the only list that can do this. A Legion list where Assault marines are troops can pull it off. Make them Sons of Horus for the extra attack at the end.

Throw in three Consuls either two primus medicaes with jump packs(think captain level apothecaries with all the normal upgrades) and a Moritat with twin plasma pistols and a Destroyer squad or all three jump pack apothecaries.

Add in a Praetor souped up for close combat and a jump pack.

Fill the rest of the points with 20 man Assault squads. You can spend 50 points extra and give the whole squad melta bombs.

Now you still have Hell drake issues, but that is still a ton of MEQs flying across the field at you.

BTW with Korvidae RG will be able to have assault squads as troops, I think its all, might just be one.

FNP is a 78% chance to save over a 66% chance without against a weapon that allows a power armor save. Not that many more against small arms.

But it's something.

It's a 33% chance to save against Heldrakes.

It's a rerollable coversave against plasma equivalents.

So... if you took 100 wounds, it will save 12 marines in the first instance, 33 marines in the second instance and 22 marines in the third. It comes with another detachable body, basically a second sergeant, that also grants FC. I'd take it. However, I could see the argument for dropping the third and going to a 1585 core. With 165 points you could buy something substantive.


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Maybe a VV squad, just to keep the theme and kill off those pesky markerlight squads!

Maybe C:SM might be able to get some good jump pack spam. RG CT, cheaper Vanguards, cheaper ASM, and the tactic helps with using the jump pack in the movement and assault phases. The remaining question is how hard they will hit. I think that if they can get some good options for weapons, we might see more people use C:SM ASM.

Martel732 wrote:
FNP is a 78% chance to save over a 66% chance without against a weapon that allows a power armor save. Not that many more against small arms.

It's almost a 2+, that is good enough for me.
FNP is so good because it almost turns them into terminators.

Col. Dash wrote:
BTW with Korvidae RG will be able to have assault squads as troops, I think its all, might just be one.

All ASM, but you need one group of scouts with it.
That's definitely worth it.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:40 firewarriors * 4 shots = 160 shots...

Uhh... do you know how much 40 firewarriors cost? I'll give you a hint, not 1700 points.

While those firewarriors are busy wiping out a third of your army in a single volley, you have to deal with the entire rest of the tau army. It's not just cover-ignoring suits and riptides. At the same time you could be seeing 12 Missile sides, which put out 48 TL Str 7, and 48 TL Str 5 per turn. That's another 20 marines killed, or 13 after FNP (assuming you even have it once the guard are picked off)

Put another way, that's two groups of units putting down 33-40 marines. In a single turn. In a single volley. Now your eviscerated jump troops charge into the kroot screen, or whatever, and they eat ultra-overwatch, and your maybe dozen marines stagger out of close combat having caused non-serious casualties. Your army is then tabled the next turn.

I wouldn't even give it that much against a wave serpent spam army. They get two turns to shoot at you (youre fast, but so are they), and then, if you blow up the vehicles with your krak grenades, you eat fire dragons and rending bladestorm. And that's after your opponpents' support units have had their way with you as well.

I mean, it wouldn't even do that good against mechvets as you eat a couple of turns of double tap plasma in addition to whatever the guard player has to offer just so that you can kill a few 55 point transports.

No, mech gunlines are the counter to fast armies, not the other way around.

The 40 firewarriors, rapid firing with fireblades get 4 shots each. There is an ethereal involved also. rapid firing firewarriors will get charged by jump infantry in the next turn.

He posted up an equivalent (in this instance, 1660 points) tau list and I disected it. I don't know how much 12 broadsides cost, but can you take them with 21 pathfinders?

The math I did was at BS 5 for everybody.

If you drop to BS 3 and 3 shots for everyone (the posted list has just one ethereal) it drops down to just 9 wounds within rapid fire range.

Maybe a fragioso or something would be worthwhile, for disruption early on. I need something to throw in my opponent's face to distract him on one of the few turns of shooting he'll get.


Trust me, the hardest games I've played with my Tau and my mech eldar were against Jumpers. The only reason I won with my Tau was because I brought Nob Bikerz as allies.

The new tau codex has only been out for a couple of months. Just how many games have you played against jumpers in that time?

Just because fast armies were good against old tau doesn't mean they're good against new tau. If new tau can table a ravenwing player before the DA player got to his turn 3 (which I've seen happen), then new tau can certainly handle some guys with jump packs.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

He posted up an equivalent (in this instance, 1660 points) tau list and I disected it.

"Disected it"? Where? You just said that a section of it (the 40 FWs and 1 Ethereal, a mere 25% of the army) can kill 14 MEQ. Don't worry, they are just there for the clean-up. The Riptides and the Sky Rays will do the brunt of the job (and the Pathfinders of course). I would just focus down the Libby (the Sky Rays alone can do that) and let the Rapetide loose on your assault marines. I can tie up 3 squads, destroy 2 Turn 1 so it leaves 1 unit of Assault Marines to charge and eat the megaoverwatch of the Tau Master Race.

And I don't even start with the scenario where the Tau Master Race has the first turn...

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

I don't know how much 12 broadsides cost, but can you take them with 21 pathfinders?

With 12 Missilesides, you bring 30 Pathfinders and not "just" 21. Though they tend to come instead of the Riptides that is good news for your army.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Maybe a fragioso or something would be worthwhile, for disruption early on. I need something to throw in my opponent's face to distract him on one of the few turns of shooting he'll get.

That's a very good idea. But make it two. The Tau Master Race has EWO, and Dreads don't like EWO.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

Trust me, the hardest games I've played with my Tau and my mech eldar were against Jumpers. The only reason I won with my Tau was because I brought Nob Bikerz as allies.

I dunno. I play a lot with my Tau against all sorts of armies and the closest to your composition (a Hound-heavy CD list) was an easy ride. i can't see massed jump infantry as a scary opponent, unless I have some sort of messed-up army (like Kroot-only Troops or something similarly crazy).

A couple of assumptions I think your forgetting.

A your Priests can be sniped out.
B No fliers. Necron flier lists will walk all over you
C your math argues an equally unbiased mathhammer vs mathhammer fight. I good general doesn't care about mathhammer.
D Strength 8 negates your FNP. one unit of dragons can devastate a unit of Marines

Jope that helps make a decision =)

Good generals certainly should are about mathhammer as each decision you make on the battlefield is ultimately mathematical.

Mali wrote:
A couple of assumptions I think your forgetting.

A your Priests can be sniped out.
B No fliers. Necron flier lists will walk all over you
C your math argues an equally unbiased mathhammer vs mathhammer fight. I good general doesn't care about mathhammer.
D Strength 8 negates your FNP. one unit of dragons can devastate a unit of Marines

Jope that helps make a decision =)

A) Look out, Sir!
B) The flyers aren't that dangerous, you just need to kill the troops, their Wraiths (shouldn't be that hard) and win by Victory Points.
C) Huh?
D) That's why you have 64 models.

When the rest of the squad that the priest was attached to gets killed, you don't get to make look out sir rolls.

Meanwhile, 64 models isn't THAT much. I've faced down fliers with 65 models before, but 10 of them were shooty terminators, and three of them were obliterators which shot down a helldrake on the turn they arrived. No such luck for you, being ONLY power armor, and not having really much of anything to even begin to attack fliers with.

Your strategy relies on reducing the amount of time that your opponent gets to shoot at you, but you're not reducing the time that fliers are shooting at you. They're not a ground target that you can charge into and shut down with krak grenades.

So you need to kill 10 marines before my Priest has enough time to join a new squad.
Good luck with that (Y)

64 models isn't that much; 64 models with an "almost 2+" is much.

And you always have melta-guns if they come too close.
Or you could use the spare points to get a quadgun, anything is possible.
But hey: Blood Angels lack AA-weapons, what else is new?

Killing 10 marines? Easy. In the last 6 games I've played with CSM, I've lost 20 marines or more on a single turn in three of them (helldrakes, bolter banner DA, and losing CCs). I've also killed 10 marines in a single turn in 2 of them. It's really not that hard to clear power armor off the table.

And that "almost 2+" isn't almost a 2+. It relies on characters that can be killed, and it doesn't work against S8+ weapons. Which is going to be a serious problem when you come up against S8 large blast weapons if you're huddling everyone around that librarian/priests. Even with displacement, conditional FNP isn't the same as Sv2+. But that's not all. Against weapons which are Ap1, 2, or, most importantly, 3, you have a "like 5++", not "like 2+". Once again, when you get it at all.

In any case, it seems you're not going to believe us no matter what we say. My only suggestion is to go find yourself some players who actually know what dakka means and watch just how quickly your army dissolves.

I always wonder how well BA jump list preform against 6th army but retaining 5th rules.

What if.
-BA can do 100% reserve
-Furious Charge have +1Str and +1int
- FNP is back to 4+, but can't save against >AP weapon

would the old rules give BA a fighting chance in 6th?

64 is not enough. Tried that. You can't forgo participating in the shooting phase in 6th edition.

 Ailaros wrote:
Killing 10 marines? Easy. In the last 6 games I've played with CSM, I've lost 20 marines or more on a single turn in three of them (helldrakes, bolter banner DA, and losing CCs). I've also killed 10 marines in a single turn in 2 of them. It's really not that hard to clear power armor off the table.

And that "almost 2+" isn't almost a 2+. It relies on characters that can be killed, and it doesn't work against S8+ weapons. Which is going to be a serious problem when you come up against S8 large blast weapons if you're huddling everyone around that librarian/priests. Even with displacement, conditional FNP isn't the same as Sv2+. But that's not all. Against weapons which are Ap1, 2, or, most importantly, 3, you have a "like 5++", not "like 2+". Once again, when you get it at all.

In any case, it seems you're not going to believe us no matter what we say. My only suggestion is to go find yourself some players who actually know what dakka means and watch just how quickly your army dissolves.

Do you have any idea how much bolters you need to kill 20 marines?
You also don't need to huddle everyone around the priest, it's enough when a couple of models are within range.
One priest can easily cover two units of ASM.

And how many AP2-shooting do you see? It's still a 5++, so that makes them function almost like Terminators in durability.

Sure, this tactic won't win you a tournament. But most people couldn't care less about tournaments.

wufai wrote:
I always wonder how well BA jump list preform against 6th army but retaining 5th rules.
What if.
-BA can do 100% reserve
-Furious Charge have +1Str and +1int
- FNP is back to 4+, but can't save against >AP weapon
would the old rules give BA a fighting chance in 6th?

Bolded for emphasis - this would be the big one. It would allow us to perform alpha strikes on particularly vicious units - for instance, flaming out pathfinders or melting hammerheads - before those units get a chance to attack anything. As I mentioned before this was the only thing that gave us a chance against Imperial Guard, even with old FNP and FC.

To the thread in general - I'm seeing a lot of mathhammer and theory crafting, which is all well and good, and at times has its place. But I have consistently proven against different armies - and I'm sure martel732 will agree with me - that a pure jump list just simply doesn't have the tools it needs to get safely across the board in 6th. Against a proper 6th Codex we're also overpriced and hence badly outnumbered to boot.

Can anyone say that they've actually *SUCCESSFULLY* used a jump list in 6th...?

100% reserves were garbage in 5th and would remain so in 6th. If you roll a "1" or "2" for your run speed after the deepstrike, you set yourself up to lose a squad to a suncannon right there. I don't understand why people think reserves are the answer, when it allows your opponent to take you on piecemeal. And you scatter. And you can mishap. And jump troops have crappy firepower and can't assault after they arrive. Why is this a good idea exactly?

BA are too badly outnumbered to swarm anything, even CSM or other "elite" armies. BA pay elite prices and get nothing that's elite in exchange.

Most the Eldar players I know understand how to move their serpents and assault blockers like Wraithknights. I can't tell you how much of a problem MCs and Wraithknights are for a jumper list. No ranged firepower sucks.

Additionally, the lack of ranged power means your opponent has plenty of 'throw away" units to feed you and then keep shooting after you beat them in HTH. Also, casualties from the front hurts mass jumpers the same way it hurts Orks. If it causes a one turn delay, your BA just lost right there.


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Addendum: I have a jumper/drop list that wins about 45-50% of the time. That's probably not clearing the 'success' threshold.


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Kangodo wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Killing 10 marines? Easy. In the last 6 games I've played with CSM, I've lost 20 marines or more on a single turn in three of them (helldrakes, bolter banner DA, and losing CCs). I've also killed 10 marines in a single turn in 2 of them. It's really not that hard to clear power armor off the table.

And that "almost 2+" isn't almost a 2+. It relies on characters that can be killed, and it doesn't work against S8+ weapons. Which is going to be a serious problem when you come up against S8 large blast weapons if you're huddling everyone around that librarian/priests. Even with displacement, conditional FNP isn't the same as Sv2+. But that's not all. Against weapons which are Ap1, 2, or, most importantly, 3, you have a "like 5++", not "like 2+". Once again, when you get it at all.

In any case, it seems you're not going to believe us no matter what we say. My only suggestion is to go find yourself some players who actually know what dakka means and watch just how quickly your army dissolves.

Do you have any idea how much bolters you need to kill 20 marines?
You also don't need to huddle everyone around the priest, it's enough when a couple of models are within range.
One priest can easily cover two units of ASM.

And how many AP2-shooting do you see? It's still a 5++, so that makes them function almost like Terminators in durability.

Sure, this tactic won't win you a tournament. But most people couldn't care less about tournaments.

78% is not 83%, and as it has been pointed out, the FNP is conditional. I really stopped this using this trope of BA list after I played an IG guy with a squad of naked Leman Russ tanks. What a mess that was. If you are using one priest every other squad, they would Leman Russ the priest squad to death, which makes the other squad lose FnP. There's just so many points of failure.

When people are bringing tourney net lists to your FLGS, people start caring.

Martel732 wrote:
100% reserves were garbage in 5th and would remain so in 6th. If you roll a "1" or "2" for your run speed after the deepstrike, you set yourself up to lose a squad to a suncannon right there. I don't understand why people think reserves are the answer, when it allows your opponent to take you on piecemeal. And you scatter. And you can mishap. And jump troops have crappy firepower and can't assault after they arrive. Why is this a good idea exactly?

Barring poor rolling, this worked really well in 5th for Blood Angels alone in my experience. Descent of Angels meant you got 75% of your units on turn 2, and a maximum scatter of D6" (or on average, 3/4") means you can be much more aggressive with where you drop them. Use your lesser numbers to drop around a particular area rather than all across the board, and use special weapons to take out nearby choice targets on arrival, to limit the damage you take in return.

This had trouble against certain armies (turtling IG players that don't have to fear the large blast markers you don't have, and fast armies like Eldar that can swing round to greet you in one turn anyway). But by and large I won games in 5th this way.

Everything else you've put, I agree with.

Maybe it's coming from a fellow BA player, but when BA players tried to do this to me, I cut them to pieces mercilessly. When I tried to employ this, 75% of the list never seemed like enough to get the job done and opened you up to spoiling assaults to negate your +1 S/I/A. The special weapons never seemed to cause enough damage to justify the hassle of deep striking.

Yeah, we already know for a fact that when you want to play competitive, you should try to stay away from BA.
So all we can do is to try and have as much fun as possible with the things we have.

I tended to destroy jump packed BA with my DE last edition before I sold the army. I looked forward to the shooting gallery. A shame it would be an even better shooting gallery in the current edition even if I only get to fire two missiles per bird.

I don't consider massing jumpers to be having as much fun as possible with BA. I think abusing AV 13 or Corbulo shenanigans are better.

I have a list with jumpers, but they are the mobile arm of a drop pod list, really.

I'm not sure I can have fun with Corbulo until they allow him to have a Jump Pack.
Great, he can take 200 or so Bolter-shots before he dies.. But I want him with my ASM >.>

Put corbulo with 10 tactical terminators with 2 cyclone missile launchers. Its a combination that never disappoints me.

What if everyone posted up the current list they play? Perhaps a breakdown of how their list tables the jumper army in 3 turns or how they'd take it down in a game?

They table it by generating *hitloads of wounds. The same way Tau and Eldar table everything now.

The downfall of the marines is that T4 means very little to both Tau and Eldar now.

Well, that and helldrakes.

And being overcosted.

And the proliferation of AP 2.

Well, you get the idea.

What if everyone posted up the current list they play? Perhaps a breakdown of how their list tables the jumper army in 3 turns or how they'd take it down in a game?

Bikeseer
5x5 Serpents (Scatter/Cannon) with 5 DA
4 Jetbikes
8 Spiders
2 Shadow Weavers
2 Wraithknights

It is very hard to "play" a game in a vacuum, but I do not fear 64 jumpers. Each Wave Serpent hits close to 4 times with a TL Scatter Laser, 3 with a Cannon, and 3.5 or so with the Shield. Killing 2-3 MEQ per isn't out of the question, which means functionally a squad a turn for pretty average Serpent rolling alone. Of course, this ignores Weavers, Spiders, and Knights--particularly when combined with the ability to buff with psychic powers (Doom, Misfortune, ect.) In addition, I can unload the Dire Avengers when they get close and put out even more hurt. Finally, I can pretty comfortably charge a Knight into a squad and let that combat happen. It may take a few player turns to chew a full 10 MEQ unit, but the important part is that they aren't doing anything of value for the BA player during this time.

I'm not saying that I would 100% table BA jumper spam by turn three every game. I will say that I don't really fear it.

Really, if we are talking competitive 40k, what does fear it? Tau will do the same thing Eldar do (probably faster). Daemons are, and have always been terrible for MEQ (and close combat MEQ in particular). Crons are still spamming 18 Wraiths, 2 Dlords, and far superior shooting to you. In addition, even if you do kill the Wraiths/Anni Barges, the flyers still drop troops on objectives end game. If you can't beat these 4 armies, then you aren't really all that competitive.

Warp Spiders, Guided (because who else will you guide?)
2.5 wounds
6's to wound yield .666 wounds

Wave Serpents are like 1.88 wounds (done earlier in the thread)

Each hit by the shadow weavers is .18 wounds

Each Wraithknight yields .8888888 wounds.

So, in summary, 13 wounds a turn.

This is before jetbikes and shadow weavers.

Warp Spiders, Guided (because who else will you guide?)
2.5 wounds
6's to wound yield .666 wounds

Wave Serpents are like 1.88 wounds (done earlier in the thread)

Each hit by the shadow weavers is .18 wounds

Each Wraithknight yields .8888888 wounds.

So, in summary, 13 wounds a turn.

This is before jetbikes and shadow weavers.

16 Warp Spider shots (guided) average about 14 hits, which equates to two rends and another 10 wounds. I don't know where that math is coming from.

It is very hard to do blast template math as well. Suffice it to say, 64 MEQ will be clumping up at some point.

It isn't out of the question that I can remove between 1.5 and 2 squads a turn. If I go first, I deploy centrally, shift to a side (to make the journey longer for some units), and fire away at the closest 2 units. If I go second, I should be able to refuse flank some of the BA list. It will take jumpers a minimum of two turns to reach firing distance, and 2-3 for CC. Once they actually reach me, I throw a Knight into each threatening squad.

This is all hypothetical, and as I mentioned before, it is really hard to "play" games without actually playing them. However, one of the posters asked for how actual lists would deal with 64 jumpers. I responded. I still maintain that my list does not fear them in the slightest. Nor does Tau, Daemons, Crons, or Drake heavy lists.

I like that shift tactic, I'll have to use it sometime.

Note: moving 12" will affect your damage output as you are BS 1 for your 3rd weapon.

Also note, firing the serpent shield leaves only a 4+ cover save against melta guns.

I agree that it's hard to play games on a forum. My problem is that I can play precisely 1 game a week. I really like playing my Tyranids and I'm trying to get as much time with them as I can before the new codex drops. I have many neat list ideas but I 1) play in a non-competitive area for the most part so I don't want to just slay baby seals every weekend with my waveserpent spam list and 2) I want each game to be enjoyable for all parties involved.

I was just making the argument for the idea that BA might not be as fragile as people say. You have a fine tuned list and it would be a close game, in my mind at least. If someone doesn't come prepared to handle a CC army, I think this would roll over them.

I like that shift tactic, I'll have to use it sometime.

Note: moving 12" will affect your damage output as you are BS 1 for your 3rd weapon.

Also note, firing the serpent shield leaves only a 4+ cover save against melta guns.

Sure, but it is still twin-linked. Keeping distance is worth not firing as well.

Finally, the melta guns only matter if they can actually reach the Serpents. Some will, but even at 12", they aren't particularly scary.

I agree that it's hard to play games on a forum. My problem is that I can play precisely 1 game a week. I really like playing my Tyranids and I'm trying to get as much time with them as I can before the new codex drops. I have many neat list ideas but I 1) play in a non-competitive area for the most part so I don't want to just slay baby seals every weekend with my waveserpent spam list and 2) I want each game to be enjoyable for all parties involved.

I was just making the argument for the idea that BA might not be as fragile as people say. You have a fine tuned list and it would be a close game, in my mind at least. If someone doesn't come prepared to handle a CC army, I think this would roll over them.

In a non-competitive environment--sure, they can win. I just don't think they have the tools to beat the top 4 dexes. 2-3 Drakes will also make you cry. However, if you have fun playing them, who really cares? It is a cool idea at the very least.

Yes, I actually own the models and they're all painted like Night Lords... just using BA rules because I like them better.

When 6th came out I thought that jump pack/bike armies were going to be the best. With Flesh hound lists, I thought that would be enough to overcome shooting. However, the balance is just tipped too far in Tau/Eldar shooting's way.

I usually play my BA in the 5th edition style. Mephiston, corbulo w/sternguard, a landraider with death company and whatever else I can fit in. I like a 'one of everything' approach more than the 'spam one thing' approach. 64 marines with jump packs looks awesome on the table but would probably be boring to play across a 3-5 game tournament.

So I think people are selling this idea short on how effective it can be. At 2k points I could run

Librarian (no reason for level 2) Jump pack
3 Jump Priests
6 x 10 Assault Marines w/ 2 Melta

Dark Angels Libby, Jump pack power field generator

2 x 10 Tacticals with lascannons.

So 85 MEQ bodies.

Now I'm not saying you will win games through sheer beat down, but simply by having tons of scoring, and durability.

Combat squad everything, and use mobility to stay out of range of many lots of shooting, then move up turn 4 and 5 to take objectives.

People keep quoting 40 fire warriors for killing things. What you really have is 4 x 10. 10 Firewarriors (assuming BS5) beyond Rapid fire kill 1.2 Marines. SO all 4 shooting will kill 1 combat squad per turn. I have 16.... even within rapid fire each squad kills 3.7 marines meaning I sitll have 1-2 left in that squad that you need to kill. IF you don't they run and hide to take objectives later.

Heck I'm not eve sure I want the priests, I may be better off with more 3+ save bodies.

THis list is a nightmare for wave serpent spam, it just won't kill enough.

I agree though it is not that fun to play, you will mostly move, try to get out of LOS/range, use mobility etc to dictate engagements...

Breng77 wrote:
This list is a nightmare for wave serpent spam, it just won't kill enough.

The units of D-Scythe Wraithguard, Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers (commonly with rerolls) usually found within the Wave Serpents disagree with you.

Again, I see a lot of theory and numbers but it's clear that you haven't actually tried to run this list. I do think dropping some jump packs to take some Tacticals is a good idea, though. It's possible that you could win games simply by objectives, but that's considering you've tried squeezing the absolute most you can out of the Codex against a not-terribly-competitive list from almost any other.

I've not seen fire dragons in a wave serpent since the new codex dropped. But even then..they fire and kill 5 marines max, then get tarpitted or killed...Same with the 200 point dscythe squad, though maybe they kill 2 units, prior to being tarpitted.

As for dire avengers (only 4 squads max have re-rolls, and if all the squads are getting out, that is great for me.)

10 Dire Avengers with re-rolls = ginving them 2 rends, they kill 4 ish marines without FNP and 3.5 without. Which means it takes 2 units shooting to kill 1 unit. Which also means you have moved up to within 18". (most frequently though those DA units are only 5 guys, which means it is closer to 3 or 4 units shooting...)

I'm not saying it is a great TAC list, but I do think it gives eldar some problems, and using durability and mobility can win boring games on objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck if you want to go really boring with less jumpers you could field a DA/BA list with 122 MEQ bodies.

I see what he's saying. But Helldrakes and demonic flying circus just laugh at you mercilessly.

Sorry Just don't see that as the case. Lets assume 3 Heldrakes, all coming in turn 2. At most they are killing 4 combat squads per turn. Which means they can kill all the marines (assuming no FNP or 4++ save) in 3 Turns, assuming you don't manuver out of their attack arc, and they all come in. That also assumes the you see 3 heldrakes, which is no longer popular because Tau, and Eldar mop the floor with that build.

Well there's more than just helldrakes. But maybe there are even worse things than helldrakes now that I think about it.

Correct there are other things than heldrakes, but that means you can try to run forward into the assault with many of those things to avoid heldrakes.

Like I said, it is not a great list, or great fun, but if you run and hide, and essentially don't play the game, and try to win on objectives, you have a chance. It is just boring so most won't do it.

Breng77 wrote:
So I think people are selling this idea short on how effective it can be. At 2k points I could run

Librarian (no reason for level 2) Jump pack
3 Jump Priests
6 x 10 Assault Marines w/ 2 Melta

Dark Angels Libby, Jump pack power field generator

2 x 10 Tacticals with lascannons.

Alright I'll post some random TAC 2k lists, you tell me how you'll beat them, we'll discuss.
Número Uno:
Nids-
HQ
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers

Troops
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. 2 extra psychic powers
10 termagants
10 termagants
10 termagants
10 termagants

Elites
Doom in spod

SO I am working off single FOC for this 2k list (as that is how most people I play with tend to play and most large tournaments.). Otherwise I don't need allies to make the list I posted.

So if you want to go single FOC at 2k,or at 1850 drop the 3 Sanguinary Priests. and go up to DA libby at ML 2.

But regardless agaist that list. Avoid doom he is slow. Play the mission (kill gaunts, melta/lascannon Troop tervigons, contest objectives, probably Tie.) I don't really see how that list kills me that well either.

Again it would be a boring game. I would stay away mostly kill some Gaunts for first blood, try to tie out the rest and win on that.

Right. There's a guy on Warseer who used this scheme for a quite a while but I think even he gave up on it in terms of fun to effectiveness ratio.

Plus, it's not fluffy at all for BA to run and hide. I don't want a codex as crazy as the Eldar for BA, but GW needs to give them some assault love when they get their book.

I don't disagree on I lacking in fun...it is terribly boring. Unfortunately so are a lot of effective lists. I wouldn't run out and buy the models for it. Nor do I even think it is the best BA have to offer. But if someone wanted to use it they could I just would not expect to run across the field and smash face it would be more akin to 3-4 turns of hiding the objective grab.

I don't like Stormraven spam either, but that works as well.

Breng77 wrote:
SO I am working off single FOC for this 2k list (as that is how most people I play with tend to play and most large tournaments.). Otherwise I don't need allies to make the list I posted.

So if you want to go single FOC at 2k,or at 1850 drop the 3 Sanguinary Priests. and go up to DA libby at ML 2.

But regardless agaist that list. Avoid doom he is slow. Play the mission (kill gaunts, melta/lascannon Troop tervigons, contest objectives, probably Tie.) I don't really see how that list kills me that well either.

Again it would be a boring game. I would stay away mostly kill some Gaunts for first blood, try to tie out the rest and win on that.

All of your non-DA models have only range 12", so if you are shooting me, you are within easy assault range. The doom is not easy to avoid in his spod. I dictate where he comes down, and you have no interceptor fire, so he is taking out at least 10 models a turn by himself.

You have vastly underestimated tervigon survivability. You have 2 lascannons and 12 meltaguns. Ignoring for a second the fact that you will be in charge range of my whole army, you will cause very few casualties on tervigons.
Assuming FnP is active (rather than iron arm, so this analogy is favouring you)
Chance for meltagun to cause a wound is (2/3)*(5/6)*(2/3) so the modal average of 12 meltaguns is 13*(10/27) = 4 wounds
Lascannon chance to wound is the same so I'll add those in: 15*(10/27) = 5 wounds.
If I add in the 80ish bolt shots
81*(2/3)*(1/6)*(1/3)*(2/3) = 1 or 2 wounds have equal probability. Which means the combined shooting of your entire army could drop one tervigon a turn, but you'd have one turn of shooting, and I'd have 7 more tervigons and 200+ gants assaulting you immediately afterwards.

Short answer = you would lose almost instantly if you allowed yourself within 12"

How do you figure on the Doom causing 10+ casualties per turn? He gets one turn of effect the turn he drops, then everything is 12+" away and never close again...... Furthermore he does on average 1-2 Casualties to each unit in his range, not including any cover saves or FNP....

Again re-work the list on a single FOC where you max out at 5 Tervigons, and each one I kill takes out a bunch of gants.

Also here is my short answer to your list....
If we don't play round 1...I never face you when you lose to Tau/Eldar.

Essentially I am building to fight the 3 most popular armies in the meta Daemons/Tau/Eldar.

Also, again I'm not saying the army is a world beater, just that in the current tournament meta (which your list does not make b/c of double FOC, and losing horribly to the top armies.) it has a chance to win games.

It is not about coming up with a list to beat a specific list (your list BTW loses horribly to 8 Rune Priests with Jaws....when all the Tervigons Die in turn 1 or 2.)

Breng77 - you have three people in this thread telling you that they've tried repeatedly using a jump list and it just plain doesn't work. You can come out with all the theory in the world, but the real-life circumstances of actual games have proven the opposite of what you propose. Actually try it, THEN if it succeeds come back and tell us we're wrong.

If I owned the models in question I would try it, alas I do not. Perhaps I will try it on Vassal, but that is hardly akin to playing a 'real' game. I know for certain I could win games with it at my LGS(I can games ringing seemingly with anything I bring.), but the only time I really play games there is when I ring at tournaments I am running, so...again not really a good sample.

I'll see if I cannot get a good player I know on vassal to bring their tournament army against it and see what happens. Just not so sure I want 3+ hours of pure boredom that would be entailed with playing the list the way I would play it to win.

I see what Breng is talking about, and I think it would do exactly what he claims it would. But very few want to play that list.

The swarmiest swarm of jump swarmers in 6th ed would be 180 gargoyles in double force org. Only comes to 1080 to 1440 depending on upgrades. It would be a hit or miss list, but it should would be a swarm.

Breng77 wrote:
How do you figure on the Doom causing 10+ casualties per turn? He gets one turn of effect the turn he drops, then everything is 12+" away and never close again...... Furthermore he does on average 1-2 Casualties to each unit in his range, not including any cover saves or FNP....

Again re-work the list on a single FOC where you max out at 5 Tervigons, and each one I kill takes out a bunch of gants.

Also here is my short answer to your list....
If we don't play round 1...I never face you when you lose to Tau/Eldar.

Essentially I am building to fight the 3 most popular armies in the meta Daemons/Tau/Eldar.

Also, again I'm not saying the army is a world beater, just that in the current tournament meta (which your list does not make b/c of double FOC, and losing horribly to the top armies.) it has a chance to win games.

It is not about coming up with a list to beat a specific list (your list BTW loses horribly to 8 Rune Priests with Jaws....when all the Tervigons Die in turn 1 or 2.)

1) The doom would kill 1-2 per squad, from about 5 different combat squads, then use his blast power to kill another 3-5.
2) I shouldn't have to use single FOC, many tournaments use double quite happily.
3) This was just an example, I'll come up with a list from one of those armies later.
4) Fair enough, not the best decision in the world though.
5) Every army has a chance to win games. And again, not all tournaments are restricted to single FOC.
6) I know it's not, this is just a TAC list that has exactly one really bad match up, and even that is very uncommon, and can be mitigated, given that I deny the witch on a 5+, then pass the test on a 1-4. So only 2/9 times am I losing a tervigon, then next turn a rune priest is dead.

Tervigon spam isn't that uncommon on the competitive scene, and if your list can't deal with just a random list I pluck out of the air, it's probably not a competitive choice.
I'll make a tau, eldar or Daemons list for you later.

How do you get passing on a 1-4 Tervigon is I1, so YOu fail on a 3+ so 4/9 times you lose a tervigon. If I hit multiples (pretty easy when there are 8. Chances are one will die realistically if I can say hit 2 With each Priest, turn 1 3-4 should die, each one taking gants with it....

Also, no large tournament since the beginning of 6th ed (at least here in the states) has used Double FOC, they have either been 1999+1 or fewer points. As I said if you prefer 1850 remove the 3 priests.

So if I deploy in such a way that you can land Doom within 6" of 5 squads none of which are in cover, he likely kills 10 models one time, before I am out of range of his power.

Acutally building toward the current Meta (NOVA was 40+% Daemons/Tau and Eldar) is a good idea, if I have about a 50-50 chance to face one of those armies, seems like building to beat them is a good choice.

As for Tervigon spam since the beginning of 6th I have not seen an army with more than 3 Tervigons at any event.

Again I never said the list was amazing, or had no tough match-ups just that it could win games (not claiming best general at the NOVA open or adepticon or anything of the like.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So put some thought into this at 2k with Double FOC and here is what I would run (for fair comparison to the Nid list)

2k

HQ
Librarian
Librarian

Troops
6x10 Tactical (missile, Plasma gun)
4 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Melta, melta bomb sarge)
2 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Flamer)

120 Scoring 3+ save bodies
48 Bolters
48 Bolt Pistols
6 Missiles
6 Plasma
8 melta
4 Flamers

Breng77 wrote:
How do you get passing on a 1-4 Tervigon is I1, so YOu fail on a 3+ so 4/9 times you lose a tervigon. If I hit multiples (pretty easy when there are 8. Chances are one will die realistically if I can say hit 2 With each Priest, turn 1 3-4 should die, each one taking gants with it....

Also, no large tournament since the beginning of 6th ed (at least here in the states) has used Double FOC, they have either been 1999+1 or fewer points. As I said if you prefer 1850 remove the 3 priests.

So if I deploy in such a way that you can land Doom within 6" of 5 squads none of which are in cover, he likely kills 10 models one time, before I am out of range of his power.

Acutally building toward the current Meta (NOVA was 40+% Daemons/Tau and Eldar) is a good idea, if I have about a 50-50 chance to face one of those armies, seems like building to beat them is a good choice.

As for Tervigon spam since the beginning of 6th I have not seen an army with more than 3 Tervigons at any event.

Again I never said the list was amazing, or had no tough match-ups just that it could win games (not claiming best general at the NOVA open or adepticon or anything of the like.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So put some thought into this at 2k with Double FOC and here is what I would run (for fair comparison to the Nid list)

2k

HQ
Librarian
Librarian

Troops
6x10 Tactical (missile, Plasma gun)
4 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Melta, melta bomb sarge)
2 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Flamer)

120 Scoring 3+ save bodies
48 Bolters
48 Bolt Pistols
6 Missiles
6 Plasma
8 melta
4 Flamers

1) Yeah sorry I read off attacks rather than initiative for some reason
2)Fair enough, I don't know anything about the scene stateside.
3)That list would do better but it still doesn't have the tools to deal with 200+ gants and 8 MC.

Daemons list coming shortly.

I actually think it stands a pretty good chance against the Nid list, chances are good I will get first blood (you have no ranged shooting to speack of). Neither of us will eliminate the other entirely so I would work to score the secondary objectives, and tie on objectives (kill points I think I take it as the Nid list is terrible in kill points)

Hardly an auto win, and it would be tough, but I don't need to kill 200+ gants and 8 MCs, just kill enough and play the mission.

Just for kicks the Tacticals alone average killing ~ 44 Gants per turn at 24" range.

The nid list posted also does not have enough to kill 122 MEQ.

IT would really come down to who played a better game and whose dice were better.

Breng77 wrote:
I actually think it stands a pretty good chance against the Nid list, chances are good I will get first blood (you have no ranged shooting to speack of). Neither of us will eliminate the other entirely so I would work to score the secondary objectives, and tie on objectives (kill points I think I take it as the Nid list is terrible in kill points)

Hardly an auto win, and it would be tough, but I don't need to kill 200+ gants and 8 MCs, just kill enough and play the mission.

Just for kicks the Tacticals alone average killing ~ 44 Gants per turn at 24" range.

The nid list posted also does not have enough to kill 122 MEQ.

IT would really come down to who played a better game and whose dice were better.

Playing the mission is quite hard though, given that I have 4 scoring T6 W6 MCs. Sure, it's not an auto-lose for you, but given the fact that (by your own admission) tervi-spam isn't even that competitive, and your list will struggle to win against it, it shows that your list might not be the best idea on the competitive scene.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the maths on the tacticals is wrong. Assuming every single missile launcher gets two hits with the blast (quite generous), you are only killing 32 gants/turn with the tacticals, and that's being generous and assuming I have absolutely no cover.

32 with bolters + 3 with Plasma, and assuming I hit 2 Gants with each missile when you have 200+ is not being that generous. It is assuming no cover though at which point it is closer to 30. What I messed up was range at 24" is is more like 29. I accidently crossed my 24" plasma and 12" bolter math.

Also having a list that cannot compete well against a non-meta list does not make it a bad list. FMC daemons would struggle against tervigon spam as well (not that much damage output) but does ok in most tournaments.

Like I said before it is a list that through boring play, can compete. Competing is not winning large GTs. Essentially I would need to play very cagey and mistake free.

Ok here is a single FOC 2k Daemons list:
Fateweaver

Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch, exalted reward
Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch, exalted reward
Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch


3 nurglings

3 nurglings

3 nurglings

3 nurglings

3 nurglings


9 screamers


Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w. daemonic flight, 2 greater rewards

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w. daemonic flight, greater reward

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w. daemonic flight, greater reward

ok so that one is easy. Combat squad surround 1 objective with all my 120 Marines maybe 2..win because you have no scoring units. Oh kill portaglyph

OR spread out and swarm objective either way...no scoring units for you = easy win for me. That daemon list (which is close to what I actually play) cannot kill 120 MEQ bodies in 5-7 turns.

Look at it this way you can effectively engage 5 units per turn (assumng I don't allow many multi charges from the screamers) I have 24 combat squads. So you essentially need every unit in your army to kill one in mine every turn to have a good chance at winning.

Even against the single FOC list, it will probably won't win because you cannot score. Use bolters to ground FMCs (especially fate weaver.)

Breng77 wrote:
ok so that one is easy. Combat squad surround 1 objective with all my 120 Marines maybe 2..win because you have no scoring units. Oh kill portaglyph

OR spread out and swarm objective either way...no scoring units for you = easy win for me. That daemon list (which is close to what I actually play) cannot kill 120 MEQ bodies in 5-7 turns.

Look at it this way you can effectively engage 5 units per turn (assumng I don't allow many multi charges from the screamers) I have 24 combat squads. So you essentially need every unit in your army to kill one in mine every turn to have a good chance at winning.

Even against the single FOC list, it will probably won't win because you cannot score. Use bolters to ground FMCs (especially fate weaver.)

Why can't I score?

Nurglings are swarms and as such cannot score, so unless you get great use out of the portaglyph (unlikely), or luck on the warpstorm (rolling a bunch of 12s). You have no scoring unless we play big guns, which will be tight, but honestly princes with no 3+ save and no psychic powers will be easy kills anyway.

Essentially other than the screamer star the rest of that build is pretty bad.

What will happen is either I will ground the princes, and kill them, or you will charge 5 marines, wipe them and I'll kill you with shooting the next turn.

Breng77 wrote:
Nurglings are swarms and as such cannot score

Where are you getting this?
I checked the rulebook, the codex, and both FAQs. Nowhere does it say swarms can't score.

Rulebook page 123, second column, second bullet point

"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:

-It is a vehicle...
-If it has the swarms special rule."

Further more following down the same column swarms also don't deny.

Oh yeah good call for some reason I didn't think to read the scoring section in that case replace those with equivalent points of plaguebearers.

How are you playing that blood angels swarm at 2000 Points? The 6 tactical squads alone are 1080 points and the 6 assault marine squads are 1260 points. The librarians add another 200 points for a grand total of 2540 points.

You also have no FnP. You'd be massively outclassed in the firepower department. At 2500 Points Tau/Eldar will eat you alive.

Tau
Buffmander - 180ish points
Ethereal
Riptide - 190
Riptide - 190
Riptide - 190
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
8 Pathfinders
8 Pathfinders
8 Pathfinders
3 MIssilesides
3 Missilesides
3 Missilesides

That still is a couple hundred points short of 2500 - and uses on FOC.

Yeah, so apparently today is when I am bad at math (I left a 0 out on the points for my assault squads (so 10 instead of 100.) The best I can do is still around 92 MEQ bodies.

Again though Of course I am outclassed in fire power, but that Tau list still won't kill all those marines.

People still seem to be missing the whole point....I'm not trying to fight you , I am trying to maybe get first blood, and maybe warlord, then I am trying to tie or squeak out an objective win. Mostly while running and hiding, and trying not to die.

Against that Tau list I likely will, wait for FW to try to move up onto middle objectives, engage those that do, and otherwise sit back, and take my lumps.

Everything considered though the general concept works better with Dark Angels (and soon with Vanilla Marines.)

At 2k points Dark Angels can take 120 Tactical Marines, and 2 Libbies + some special weapons.

Blood Angels Can take about 100 + upgrades and 2 Libbies. so I take say 10 lascannons. Against the Tau list shoot those at Broadsides early for first blood (or a riptide). Then stay at long range, using what LOS blockers I can, then move onto objectives Turns 4 and 5.

Okay, I see what you're trying. It might work - but at best I would say 50/50. Warlord/First blood would largely be determined by who went first. Objective placement would matter a great deal as well. Of course, we're no longer talking about a jump pack swarm either.

Correct, though I think you can do the Jump pack swarm a tactical swarm is stronger due to ranged shooting, for BA adding a few units of jumpers is pretty decent for late game mobility.

You are right though it is 50-50, which means it can compete, but it is horribly boring, not very marine like, and if you are playing a battle point tournament unlikely to place all that high.

In theory you could bring 2 libbies, 90 jump pack guys with upgrades (100 with no upgrades). And just try to out last people. The short gun range really means that such a list would be very much needing to win objectives.

How do you know when a codex is stupidly bad? When you get discussions about doing this kind of stuff to have a *chance* of winning. I haven't seen any BT threads this desperate even.

That's because they'll have a new book in a week...and have been an old book for a while.

In reality given the lack of heldrakes I've seen recently I think some other more standard BA list would be ok. The issue will be in about a week most will be done better by another dex.

It's not just helldrakes anymore. BA overcostedness makes us extremely vulnerable to Tau and Eldar raw firepower. Especially with Eldar, because they are not as helpless in HTH as Tau.

Even with FNP and shield of sanguinius, I can't make enough saves to avoid having my squads crippled.

DS & flamers my friends. Wipe out those T3 gunlines with fire.

Even for BA, it's trivial to DS out side the optimal range of a flamer. I don't fear any army using DS, and I can't imagine why the Tau or Eldar would care either.

I wanna see how the mass infantry list does vs the CSM/BL shenanigans everyone has been whining about...


Otherwise, it mass infantry seems interesting. If you go vs top armies like Taudar, Crons+GK, Flying Circus... Etc. you'll get torn apart though.

Lucarikx

Wow that is a broken list. I would refuse to play that person ever again. The only way I can see beating it is having a prepared list, Drop podding sternguard and trying for a first turn wipe.

The only way I can see an Assault marine army beat it is deep striking behind the drakes and hoping for good hits(asuming the drakes are AV10 rear) and having DP'd Sternguard to try and wipe what started on the board.

Against 7 drakes, try to get first turn....run across the board as quickly as possible into the assault (if you can get most of your stuff stuck in turn 2 when a majority of the drakes come on you can reduce the damage they do, Really only the heldrakes are scarey. After you wipe out all the troops (by turn 3 or 4) jump around and try to keep something alive that can score.

As for facing top armies....again if you don't generally try to fight them you won't get torn apart, yo'll just be trying to stay alive with your ton of scoring bodies.....

As for that Broken CSM list....meh the Daemon list above would have a good chance to beat it (once you put in some scoring units). Get 2++ save on screamers...multi charge cultists, wipe them out. Fly FMCs around away from drakes.

As someone who uses many of the lists BA struggles with and has a wife who uses some more armies that BA struggles with, I have to say that a mass jump list if going against my Wife's standard Eldar list would soak up fire from Suncannons and Wave Serpents all game long while being left to do little but stare angrily at the Nighthunters that shot down the stormraven.

And if they do crack open a wave serpent, they'll find a D-scythe carrying surprise to template them off the table. Any open objectives will then be taken by Wraithblades with axes and shields once the campers are wiped out by the Wraithguard.

Me? My honestly most competetive army, a Dark Harvest list, would have little but royal courts, Tomb Stalkers, and wraiths waiting for you on the ground while fliers buzz around killing everything.

How large are these armies? So a sun cannon Wraithknight is what 280+ points, so for multiples you are looking at a good chunk of points, then you have d-scythe Wraithguard in serpents (minimum 315 point) and Wraith blades. (160). I'm not even talkign FW stuff (as again many events don't allow it, and I don't know the points, but there is no storm raven in the list).

So I would be looking at for your wife what at 2k points (guessing)

Spirit seer
2 x 5 Dcythe Wraithguard in serpents
2 x 5 Wraith Blades in Serpents
2 Wraithknights with suncannons
Nighthunters (whatever they are/do)

Simply would not be able to kill 90+ 3+ save bodies. If I hide in terrain and out of LOS, you just don't do enough damage. Some lascannons etc shoot at wraithknights or serpents.

As for Necrons again not enough damage output. You are again like most assuming I would take the fight to you. Run across the table and fight. If I don't necron flyers don't kill marines very quickly.

You are right, I won't do much, but that is kind of the point, I'm doing just that, not much except not dying.

Breng77 wrote:
How large are these armies? So a sun cannon Wraithknight is what 280+ points, so for multiples you are looking at a good chunk of points, then you have d-scythe Wraithguard in serpents (minimum 315 point) and Wraith blades. (160). I'm not even talkign FW stuff (as again many events don't allow it, and I don't know the points, but there is no storm raven in the list).

So I would be looking at for your wife what at 2k points (guessing)

Spirit seer
2 x 5 Dcythe Wraithguard in serpents
2 x 5 Wraith Blades in Serpents
2 Wraithknights with suncannons
Nighthunters (whatever they are/do)

Simply would not be able to kill 90+ 3+ save bodies. If I hide in terrain and out of LOS, you just don't do enough damage. Some lascannons etc shoot at wraithknights or serpents.

As for Necrons again not enough damage output. You are again like most assuming I would take the fight to you. Run across the table and fight. If I don't necron flyers don't kill marines very quickly.

You are right, I won't do much, but that is kind of the point, I'm doing just that, not much except not dying.

Primarily 2-3k games, with the occasional 4-5k non-apocalypse game.

And I kinda derped on the name, they're called Nightwings, and they're perhaps the single best air superiority fighter in the game. Though sometimes she takes warp spiders or hornets instead.

Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

No need for that, while it helps I really don't want to be fighting him anyway. I prefer to go with Divination.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

How is this even remotely an answer to a wraithknight? The wraithknight swings first, is S10 BASE, and a libby has no invulnerable of any kind. The Wraithknight will only need to inflict a single wound to kill you, with 4 attacks the odds of the libby surviving are fairly remote. The eldar player can throw prescience on the wraithknight if he want's to ensure the kill.

Divination is very strong, but shield of sanguinius has a mechanic no longer available in the psyker rules. Of course, Tau can just take that save away. So I don't know.

 Thaylen wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

How is this even remotely an answer to a wraithknight? The wraithknight swings first, is S10 BASE, and a libby has no invulnerable of any kind. The Wraithknight will only need to inflict a single wound to kill you, with 4 attacks the odds of the libby surviving are fairly remote. The eldar player can throw prescience on the wraithknight if he want's to ensure the kill.

Right, the Librarian is in a squad of marines and since the wraithknight isn't a character he can't pick him out. Literally, this is the ONLY way a Jumper list can handle multiple MCs. I would consider giving the librarian an Axe just so that he can sneak past the 2+ save of a Riptide.

Good players are not going to let that libby kill their MCs. The squad with the librarian is going to get melted or fed a different target.

Also, can't greater demons issue challenges?

Martel732 wrote:
Divination is very strong, but shield of sanguinius has a mechanic no longer available in the psyker rules. Of course, Tau can just take that save away. So I don't know.

What mechanic is that?

I look at it as expending your opponent's resources. You essentially take away 2 ML tokens per Ap 3 or lower weapon just to take the cover save away. That's -2 BS to another unit.

4 ML tokens
-2 to take away cover
-2 to make a Riptide BS5 for the blast

as oppose to

4 ML tokens
-2 to make a Riptide BS5 for the blast
-2 to make a Riptide BS5 for the blast

The ability to spend warp charges to cast spells on your opponent's turn. This allows your level 1 libby to cast alternating spells. Of course, he costs as much as a level 2 DA libby, so it just makes the BA suck a bit less.

And the Tau don't care about Shield of Sanguinius. Been there, done that. Lost those games.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 Thaylen wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

How is this even remotely an answer to a wraithknight? The wraithknight swings first, is S10 BASE, and a libby has no invulnerable of any kind. The Wraithknight will only need to inflict a single wound to kill you, with 4 attacks the odds of the libby surviving are fairly remote. The eldar player can throw prescience on the wraithknight if he want's to ensure the kill.

Right, the Librarian is in a squad of marines and since the wraithknight isn't a character he can't pick him out. Literally, this is the ONLY way a Jumper list can handle multiple MCs. I would consider giving the librarian an Axe just so that he can sneak past the 2+ save of a Riptide.

Reread the Eldar Codex, Wraithknights are indeed characters, they will challenge you right out.

That's what I thought Thaylen, but I wasn't sure. I always shoot them to death but then get mopped up by all the wave serpents.

So basically, jumper lists can't handle MCs, and this is my in-game experience. They munch you like pac-man.

Reread the Eldar Codex, Wraithknights are indeed characters, they will challenge you right out.

No....no they aren't.

Under the entry for Wraithknight, the codex specifically states that they are jump monstrous creatures. The summary sheet does not have the (ch) next to it. They are not characters.

There are just so many incorrect rules being thrown around in this thread that I wonder if people here even play the game.

Well as I said, I always shoot them and avoid HTH, so I wouldn't know. I know that I don't want to be fighting them in HTH. Seriously, what else am I going to shoot? The wave serpents?

It doesn't really matter. If the Eldar player is concerned, they can just make the libby's squad a smoking crater before they become an issue. This proposal is a non-solution.

Basically, the fundamental problem is that a shooting list chooses which squads you lose and for an assault list, your opponent chooses which squads they lose. Not a recipe for success in 6th.

Flying MC's (*correction, anything flying) is the Bane of jump-pack based BA. The only 'soft' counters you have to them are not jump. Best bets are

- Sternguard if they are able to get a round and a half of shooting.
- TH/SS terminators
- Stormraven unloading its whole payload.

Thats it, and they are all costly and/or slow.

With the arrival of the C:SM codex and assuming the rumors are true I am making a Iron hands captian /w eternal sheild, pf, artifice armor and a JP to be my jump based MC cc counter. Pricey as hell but better then any of the JP based characters in our book.

Too bad I have many BA specific models and I'm likely not able to even field a "counts as army" even if I felt like it. I'll check out C:SM when it drops, but I have a feeling that to update my list to that will cost too much $$.

Given that this will be yet another list I basically have little to no chance against, I feel that GW is pushing me out until they finally drop a BA codex.

MY FLGS owner explained that GW really banks on players owning multiple armies. They expect that someone in my position would have run out and bought Necrons, not keep losing with BA over and over.

Save my sanguinary guard and named characters, my models are the same as the C:SM so I am going to give it a shot.

Using C:SM as the main body /w Ironhands (for the weaker fnp I am used to) and BA as allies for the JP troops and divination librarian (which the C:Sm codex dosent have on regular librarian). It may be a bastardized union and not a in-book BA fix, but I am looking forward to using jump troops without viewing it as lost cause.

I'm not sold on shield of sanguinius. I would rather have prescience. Sure I can maybe make you spend 2 marker lights, or you can shoot me with shots that don't ignore my armor. I can also just use terrain for cover or other units. As for the Libby fighting the dreadknight that means spending what 165 points for the libby to make him effective? I'd rather keep mine cheap and opt for more bodies.

My current variation (that I am playing against a pretty strong Tau list on a saved Vassal Game is)

Libby
40 Assault marines (melta bombs 2 Melta guns each)
20 Tactical Marines (missile plas each)
5 Missile Devastators

DA Libby
20 Tacticals (lascannons)
5 Lascannon Devs.

Currently bottom of 2 in the game. Mission hammer and anvil and relic. I lost first blood but currently have the relic. I've killed 4 Broad sides and 8 missile drones, and ~30 kroot. Lost about 15 Assault Marines.

My rolling has been pretty awful so far (I think I am averaging making about 1/3rd of my 3+ saves)

I am hoping you have priests sprinkled throughout that army.

I find that I can't often count on terrain. Plus, shield of sanguinius can mimic smoke launchers for mech lists. It's far from amazing, but it's a thing. Like with all BA things, it's too little for too many points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hazal wrote:
Save my sanguinary guard and named characters, my models are the same as the C:SM so I am going to give it a shot.

Using C:SM as the main body /w Ironhands (for the weaker fnp I am used to) and BA as allies for the JP troops and divination librarian (which the C:Sm codex dosent have on regular librarian). It may be a bastardized union and not a in-book BA fix, but I am looking forward to using jump troops without viewing it as lost cause.

Let's see I have jump marines with weapons C:SM can't have, Baal preds, sanguinary priests, several foot assault troops, las/plas razors I'd never use if they weren't fast. Oh and a Stormraven I'd never use if I were C:SM. Oh, and fragnoughts and sanguinary guard. Yeah...

 JGrand wrote:

Reread the Eldar Codex, Wraithknights are indeed characters, they will challenge you right out.

No....no they aren't.

Under the entry for Wraithknight, the codex specifically states that they are jump monstrous creatures. The summary sheet does not have the (ch) next to it. They are not characters.

There are just so many incorrect rules being thrown around in this thread that I wonder if people here even play the game.

I misread the unit summary. You have the right of this. I'll have to let the eldar players at my FLGS know about this.

 hazal wrote:
I am hoping you have priests sprinkled throughout that army.

NO no priests, I looked at fitting them in but there are a few issues with them

1.) They are expensive 50 points + pack which is 3-4 more marine bodies on the table. Which is not too bad but when you want 3+ priests to really get a sufficient ammount of FNP you are talking about whole squads worth of models. The FNP would need to save 15-20 models to make it worth paying those points in this type of list.

2.) They cause you to clump up, with only a 6" bubble it means all your units need to be close to benefit, I would rather be able to spread out and not worry.

3.) The list functions best when you combat squad everything (it makes people overkill units to finish them off.), which means the priest is in a 5 man squad, and easy to eliminate for his points.

My hybrid mech list only has a single priest for this reason.

I wont disagree, you really need to have 15+ bodies in range of a priest for the math to work out. I often do drop lists etc with Corbulo and crew so spacing isnt the biggest issue if I can bring proper weight of fire to bear.

I really hope they discount JP's for all the solo characters in our next edition.

My last game with Corbs in a pod, they ate Riptide interception STR 8 AP 2 We played like 15 more minutes then went to Five Guys, as it was a better use of time.

It's gonna take more than cheap jump packs for BA.

How about a giant sanguinary guard with t7 w7 s7 super jumppacks and shoots baal predators out of its wrist mounted super bolters... and a DC version of it... yea... I can see GW doing that.

Or a way for JP to avoid interceptor...

or a million things...

but really riptide interception at str 8 ap2 would ruin any MEQ's day.

don't see the jump pack discount coming it is still 15 points for Chaos SM, and Dark Angels. Raptors are still 17 points each, and DA assault marines are as well.

So if we assume similar the discout will be on the characters themselves not the jump pack (65 point libby with 15 point pack, so 80 points, or 115 with Level 2).

Also assault squads will be 170 for 10 marines, instead of 190.

No, I'd rather specifically avoid an overpowered codex myself.

I'm not sure there's really a way to address the current meta with the way GW has designed this game and the way the Eldar and Tau codices read.

Marines are paying (rightly) for close combat prowess that basically means nothing in this edition.

Well, it does have a little meaning, but marines themselves suffer from the same thing as a lot of units in marine books. Lots of bells and whistles.

You have 4s accross the board for stats and a good save. But if all you want to do is shoot, you don't really need high initiative or Strength. 3+ saves are decent, but when you pay twice as much as other models it really lowers your damage output.

What I would like to see is Blood Angels assault marines be able to take bolters. They would be an excelent unit if they had a 24" gun with rapid fire.

Assault Marines with bolters would make me smile. Just a flat point reduction across the board and maybe some special tactics to work around interception and overwatch.

Somehow, I don't think that's ever going to happen.

Although I must ask why would bolters be so great? The boltgun is not that great of a weapon to begin with.

The bolter in 6th ed is a good weapon, so giving a squad essentially a 36" range bolter shot, or 24" range rapid fire is pretty good. Essentially what I feel makes Assault marines bad right now is that they can do nothing (unless they take plasma guns) from beyond 12" which means they are always getting rapid fired if they want to do damage.

I'm not saying they would be OMG totally OP, but they would be a moble troop with decent shooting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree though that it won't happen. I would run Death Company like that if they were not over 30 points per model.

Increased threat range over the bolt pistol by 12", double the firepower at the same range... because sometimes punching stuff is just going to get us killed faster.

Oh and double the chance at over-watch, its a small change but the option for it allows for some greater versatility.

That and you would see more double plas-bolt gun assault troops, rapid fire things to death and run away to do it again. Not very BA's lore style of combat but a fun tactic.



* I am a fan of DC with boltguns if I ever run them. Relentless with rapid fire is a nice small advantage in 6th.

I think the issue in seeing their use lies with seeing them as Assault Marines without combat weapons. When really, their use would be best viewed as Tactical Marines with extra speed. This I could get behind, BUT I fear the unit would end up costing too much to be useful. It also just doesn't seem right for the fluff.

hazal wrote:How about a giant sanguinary guard with t7 w7 s7 super jumppacks and shoots deep-striking Land Raiders out of its wrist mounted super bolters...

Mecha-Sanguiknightnor! You saw it here first. Also, a slight adjustment.

While the DA have some nice fluffy stuff for their Assault Marines, they are largely useless when compared to the versatility of the standard Tactical Marine Squad. The basic problem is that ASM are too lackluster in five-man squads to be effective, and taking ten-man squads is too costly. The cost does need to be reduced, but that's minor compared to the more pressing issue of their basic damage output. If it were up to me (which it most certainly isn't) I would try to find a way of merging the basic troop choices with the Fast Attack & Elite counterparts. Given the wargear versatility of other models in other armies, there is no reason that Sterngaurd Veterans should be a seperate unit from Tactical Marines. Likewise there is no reason why Vanguard Veterans should be different than Assault Marines.

The variance in point cost on the wargear should be sufficient to stem any gross abuse. This is especially true for the DA, whose idea of a wargear upgrade is a +2S sword with unweildy. Really? Why in the hell would you not just buy a damned power fist if you going to strike at I1? But I digress.

For now, the best way to play a list with lots of Marines is to take six squads of ten marines, broken into Combat Squads. Six of the Squads should be given a Razorback with wither a Heavy Bolter or an Assault Cannon (whichever your codex allows). Since each squad of 10 men gets an assault weapon and a heavy weapon, make sure to put the six squads with assault weaopons in the razordbacks, leaving the sqauds with heavy weapons (should be Heavy Bolters / Plasma / ML) take care of the rear (or man a Aegis). In this list you have the maximum mobility with your scoring units, and they can focus or split their fire as needed.

Alternatively, if split fire is less ordinate, you could just take all six squads at full strength without splitting into Combat Squads, and give each squad a Drop Pod with a ML.

With the way GW has worked 6e and assaults, the normal assault unit is just worthless. Would be absolutely PHENOMENAL if they decided to make Drop Pods into assault vehicles so that ASM could assault out of them on arrival (then you could just take them without jump packs).

They would need to revise other rules not make the assaut vehciles, they are already open topped so they would be able to assault out if they had not just arrived from reserves.

I.e. a land raider is an assaut vehicle if a BA player deepstrikes one they guys inside still cannot assault.

Nice I like the idea of facing just 63 Assault Marines...would be a fun and interesting fight ..for the Green tide ..might even be fun and interesting for the Marine Player..that being said the poor Marines will be out numbered 3 to 1..I see one method of the Assault Marines possibly winning but it means never being in assault range of the Orks ..ever ..

1750
HQ
Big Mek/SAG,ammo runt,BP
Big Mek/SAG,ammo runt,BP
Elite
10 Lootas
10 Lootas
Troops
30 Shoota Boyz,Nob,BS,BP
30 Shoota Boyz,Nob,BS,BP
30 Shoota Boyz,Nob,BS,BP
30 Shoota Boyz,Nob,BS,BP
10 Gretchin + RH (on ADL)
15 Gretchin + RH
Heavy
3 Kannon,6 extra Grotz, 3 Ammo runt (Sag)
3 Kannon,6 extra Grotz, 3 Ammo runt (Sag)
3 Kannon,5 extra Grotz
Fort
ADl + Quad
at 2000 I would Drop the 15 Grots for another unit of 30 boyz and Change the Lootas to 3 Groups of 9 ..still going to give the Beakies a hard go ..

Oooh I got it 2 wound sanguinor models with centurion weapon options... BOOOM codex fixed.


And mehpiston can fly.

 hazal wrote:
And mehpiston can fly.

Make him a FMC, that way he also hits at AP2 and we have all his problems fixed!

But to keep this on topic: How about combat squads?
Do we want to keep groups of 10, or do we want to split the "non-IC"-groups into smaller parts.

Pro's:
-Easier to manoeuvre
-Easier to keep alive against VoF.
-Better to attack multiple units.
-Seems better to 'fill in gaps' in your advance.
-Works better if you want to ignore a challenge.
-Automatic "split fire"-option, whereas with 10 ASM you have to pick between shooting a vehicle or assaulting a unit.

What are the downside to this?
It would work like this:
10 ASM + priest + librarian
10 ASM + priest
10 ASM + priest
6x 5 ASM with the melta's in the same groups.

And would you put the Sergeant in the assault groups or in the melta-groups?