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When the rest of the squad that the priest was attached to gets killed, you don't get to make look out sir rolls.

Meanwhile, 64 models isn't THAT much. I've faced down fliers with 65 models before, but 10 of them were shooty terminators, and three of them were obliterators which shot down a helldrake on the turn they arrived. No such luck for you, being ONLY power armor, and not having really much of anything to even begin to attack fliers with.

Your strategy relies on reducing the amount of time that your opponent gets to shoot at you, but you're not reducing the time that fliers are shooting at you. They're not a ground target that you can charge into and shut down with krak grenades.

So you need to kill 10 marines before my Priest has enough time to join a new squad.
Good luck with that (Y)

64 models isn't that much; 64 models with an "almost 2+" is much.

And you always have melta-guns if they come too close.
Or you could use the spare points to get a quadgun, anything is possible.
But hey: Blood Angels lack AA-weapons, what else is new?

Killing 10 marines? Easy. In the last 6 games I've played with CSM, I've lost 20 marines or more on a single turn in three of them (helldrakes, bolter banner DA, and losing CCs). I've also killed 10 marines in a single turn in 2 of them. It's really not that hard to clear power armor off the table.

And that "almost 2+" isn't almost a 2+. It relies on characters that can be killed, and it doesn't work against S8+ weapons. Which is going to be a serious problem when you come up against S8 large blast weapons if you're huddling everyone around that librarian/priests. Even with displacement, conditional FNP isn't the same as Sv2+. But that's not all. Against weapons which are Ap1, 2, or, most importantly, 3, you have a "like 5++", not "like 2+". Once again, when you get it at all.

In any case, it seems you're not going to believe us no matter what we say. My only suggestion is to go find yourself some players who actually know what dakka means and watch just how quickly your army dissolves.

I always wonder how well BA jump list preform against 6th army but retaining 5th rules.

What if.
-BA can do 100% reserve
-Furious Charge have +1Str and +1int
- FNP is back to 4+, but can't save against >AP weapon

would the old rules give BA a fighting chance in 6th?

64 is not enough. Tried that. You can't forgo participating in the shooting phase in 6th edition.

 Ailaros wrote:
Killing 10 marines? Easy. In the last 6 games I've played with CSM, I've lost 20 marines or more on a single turn in three of them (helldrakes, bolter banner DA, and losing CCs). I've also killed 10 marines in a single turn in 2 of them. It's really not that hard to clear power armor off the table.

And that "almost 2+" isn't almost a 2+. It relies on characters that can be killed, and it doesn't work against S8+ weapons. Which is going to be a serious problem when you come up against S8 large blast weapons if you're huddling everyone around that librarian/priests. Even with displacement, conditional FNP isn't the same as Sv2+. But that's not all. Against weapons which are Ap1, 2, or, most importantly, 3, you have a "like 5++", not "like 2+". Once again, when you get it at all.

In any case, it seems you're not going to believe us no matter what we say. My only suggestion is to go find yourself some players who actually know what dakka means and watch just how quickly your army dissolves.

Do you have any idea how much bolters you need to kill 20 marines?
You also don't need to huddle everyone around the priest, it's enough when a couple of models are within range.
One priest can easily cover two units of ASM.

And how many AP2-shooting do you see? It's still a 5++, so that makes them function almost like Terminators in durability.

Sure, this tactic won't win you a tournament. But most people couldn't care less about tournaments.

wufai wrote:
I always wonder how well BA jump list preform against 6th army but retaining 5th rules.
What if.
-BA can do 100% reserve
-Furious Charge have +1Str and +1int
- FNP is back to 4+, but can't save against >AP weapon
would the old rules give BA a fighting chance in 6th?

Bolded for emphasis - this would be the big one. It would allow us to perform alpha strikes on particularly vicious units - for instance, flaming out pathfinders or melting hammerheads - before those units get a chance to attack anything. As I mentioned before this was the only thing that gave us a chance against Imperial Guard, even with old FNP and FC.

To the thread in general - I'm seeing a lot of mathhammer and theory crafting, which is all well and good, and at times has its place. But I have consistently proven against different armies - and I'm sure martel732 will agree with me - that a pure jump list just simply doesn't have the tools it needs to get safely across the board in 6th. Against a proper 6th Codex we're also overpriced and hence badly outnumbered to boot.

Can anyone say that they've actually *SUCCESSFULLY* used a jump list in 6th...?

100% reserves were garbage in 5th and would remain so in 6th. If you roll a "1" or "2" for your run speed after the deepstrike, you set yourself up to lose a squad to a suncannon right there. I don't understand why people think reserves are the answer, when it allows your opponent to take you on piecemeal. And you scatter. And you can mishap. And jump troops have crappy firepower and can't assault after they arrive. Why is this a good idea exactly?

BA are too badly outnumbered to swarm anything, even CSM or other "elite" armies. BA pay elite prices and get nothing that's elite in exchange.

Most the Eldar players I know understand how to move their serpents and assault blockers like Wraithknights. I can't tell you how much of a problem MCs and Wraithknights are for a jumper list. No ranged firepower sucks.

Additionally, the lack of ranged power means your opponent has plenty of 'throw away" units to feed you and then keep shooting after you beat them in HTH. Also, casualties from the front hurts mass jumpers the same way it hurts Orks. If it causes a one turn delay, your BA just lost right there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum: I have a jumper/drop list that wins about 45-50% of the time. That's probably not clearing the 'success' threshold.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Killing 10 marines? Easy. In the last 6 games I've played with CSM, I've lost 20 marines or more on a single turn in three of them (helldrakes, bolter banner DA, and losing CCs). I've also killed 10 marines in a single turn in 2 of them. It's really not that hard to clear power armor off the table.

And that "almost 2+" isn't almost a 2+. It relies on characters that can be killed, and it doesn't work against S8+ weapons. Which is going to be a serious problem when you come up against S8 large blast weapons if you're huddling everyone around that librarian/priests. Even with displacement, conditional FNP isn't the same as Sv2+. But that's not all. Against weapons which are Ap1, 2, or, most importantly, 3, you have a "like 5++", not "like 2+". Once again, when you get it at all.

In any case, it seems you're not going to believe us no matter what we say. My only suggestion is to go find yourself some players who actually know what dakka means and watch just how quickly your army dissolves.

Do you have any idea how much bolters you need to kill 20 marines?
You also don't need to huddle everyone around the priest, it's enough when a couple of models are within range.
One priest can easily cover two units of ASM.

And how many AP2-shooting do you see? It's still a 5++, so that makes them function almost like Terminators in durability.

Sure, this tactic won't win you a tournament. But most people couldn't care less about tournaments.

78% is not 83%, and as it has been pointed out, the FNP is conditional. I really stopped this using this trope of BA list after I played an IG guy with a squad of naked Leman Russ tanks. What a mess that was. If you are using one priest every other squad, they would Leman Russ the priest squad to death, which makes the other squad lose FnP. There's just so many points of failure.

When people are bringing tourney net lists to your FLGS, people start caring.

Martel732 wrote:
100% reserves were garbage in 5th and would remain so in 6th. If you roll a "1" or "2" for your run speed after the deepstrike, you set yourself up to lose a squad to a suncannon right there. I don't understand why people think reserves are the answer, when it allows your opponent to take you on piecemeal. And you scatter. And you can mishap. And jump troops have crappy firepower and can't assault after they arrive. Why is this a good idea exactly?

Barring poor rolling, this worked really well in 5th for Blood Angels alone in my experience. Descent of Angels meant you got 75% of your units on turn 2, and a maximum scatter of D6" (or on average, 3/4") means you can be much more aggressive with where you drop them. Use your lesser numbers to drop around a particular area rather than all across the board, and use special weapons to take out nearby choice targets on arrival, to limit the damage you take in return.

This had trouble against certain armies (turtling IG players that don't have to fear the large blast markers you don't have, and fast armies like Eldar that can swing round to greet you in one turn anyway). But by and large I won games in 5th this way.

Everything else you've put, I agree with.

Maybe it's coming from a fellow BA player, but when BA players tried to do this to me, I cut them to pieces mercilessly. When I tried to employ this, 75% of the list never seemed like enough to get the job done and opened you up to spoiling assaults to negate your +1 S/I/A. The special weapons never seemed to cause enough damage to justify the hassle of deep striking.

Yeah, we already know for a fact that when you want to play competitive, you should try to stay away from BA.
So all we can do is to try and have as much fun as possible with the things we have.

I tended to destroy jump packed BA with my DE last edition before I sold the army. I looked forward to the shooting gallery. A shame it would be an even better shooting gallery in the current edition even if I only get to fire two missiles per bird.

I don't consider massing jumpers to be having as much fun as possible with BA. I think abusing AV 13 or Corbulo shenanigans are better.

I have a list with jumpers, but they are the mobile arm of a drop pod list, really.

I'm not sure I can have fun with Corbulo until they allow him to have a Jump Pack.
Great, he can take 200 or so Bolter-shots before he dies.. But I want him with my ASM >.>

Put corbulo with 10 tactical terminators with 2 cyclone missile launchers. Its a combination that never disappoints me.

What if everyone posted up the current list they play? Perhaps a breakdown of how their list tables the jumper army in 3 turns or how they'd take it down in a game?

They table it by generating *hitloads of wounds. The same way Tau and Eldar table everything now.

The downfall of the marines is that T4 means very little to both Tau and Eldar now.

Well, that and helldrakes.

And being overcosted.

And the proliferation of AP 2.

Well, you get the idea.

What if everyone posted up the current list they play? Perhaps a breakdown of how their list tables the jumper army in 3 turns or how they'd take it down in a game?

Bikeseer
5x5 Serpents (Scatter/Cannon) with 5 DA
4 Jetbikes
8 Spiders
2 Shadow Weavers
2 Wraithknights

It is very hard to "play" a game in a vacuum, but I do not fear 64 jumpers. Each Wave Serpent hits close to 4 times with a TL Scatter Laser, 3 with a Cannon, and 3.5 or so with the Shield. Killing 2-3 MEQ per isn't out of the question, which means functionally a squad a turn for pretty average Serpent rolling alone. Of course, this ignores Weavers, Spiders, and Knights--particularly when combined with the ability to buff with psychic powers (Doom, Misfortune, ect.) In addition, I can unload the Dire Avengers when they get close and put out even more hurt. Finally, I can pretty comfortably charge a Knight into a squad and let that combat happen. It may take a few player turns to chew a full 10 MEQ unit, but the important part is that they aren't doing anything of value for the BA player during this time.

I'm not saying that I would 100% table BA jumper spam by turn three every game. I will say that I don't really fear it.

Really, if we are talking competitive 40k, what does fear it? Tau will do the same thing Eldar do (probably faster). Daemons are, and have always been terrible for MEQ (and close combat MEQ in particular). Crons are still spamming 18 Wraiths, 2 Dlords, and far superior shooting to you. In addition, even if you do kill the Wraiths/Anni Barges, the flyers still drop troops on objectives end game. If you can't beat these 4 armies, then you aren't really all that competitive.

Warp Spiders, Guided (because who else will you guide?)
2.5 wounds
6's to wound yield .666 wounds

Wave Serpents are like 1.88 wounds (done earlier in the thread)

Each hit by the shadow weavers is .18 wounds

Each Wraithknight yields .8888888 wounds.

So, in summary, 13 wounds a turn.

This is before jetbikes and shadow weavers.

Warp Spiders, Guided (because who else will you guide?)
2.5 wounds
6's to wound yield .666 wounds

Wave Serpents are like 1.88 wounds (done earlier in the thread)

Each hit by the shadow weavers is .18 wounds

Each Wraithknight yields .8888888 wounds.

So, in summary, 13 wounds a turn.

This is before jetbikes and shadow weavers.

16 Warp Spider shots (guided) average about 14 hits, which equates to two rends and another 10 wounds. I don't know where that math is coming from.

It is very hard to do blast template math as well. Suffice it to say, 64 MEQ will be clumping up at some point.

It isn't out of the question that I can remove between 1.5 and 2 squads a turn. If I go first, I deploy centrally, shift to a side (to make the journey longer for some units), and fire away at the closest 2 units. If I go second, I should be able to refuse flank some of the BA list. It will take jumpers a minimum of two turns to reach firing distance, and 2-3 for CC. Once they actually reach me, I throw a Knight into each threatening squad.

This is all hypothetical, and as I mentioned before, it is really hard to "play" games without actually playing them. However, one of the posters asked for how actual lists would deal with 64 jumpers. I responded. I still maintain that my list does not fear them in the slightest. Nor does Tau, Daemons, Crons, or Drake heavy lists.

I like that shift tactic, I'll have to use it sometime.

Note: moving 12" will affect your damage output as you are BS 1 for your 3rd weapon.

Also note, firing the serpent shield leaves only a 4+ cover save against melta guns.

I agree that it's hard to play games on a forum. My problem is that I can play precisely 1 game a week. I really like playing my Tyranids and I'm trying to get as much time with them as I can before the new codex drops. I have many neat list ideas but I 1) play in a non-competitive area for the most part so I don't want to just slay baby seals every weekend with my waveserpent spam list and 2) I want each game to be enjoyable for all parties involved.

I was just making the argument for the idea that BA might not be as fragile as people say. You have a fine tuned list and it would be a close game, in my mind at least. If someone doesn't come prepared to handle a CC army, I think this would roll over them.

I like that shift tactic, I'll have to use it sometime.

Note: moving 12" will affect your damage output as you are BS 1 for your 3rd weapon.

Also note, firing the serpent shield leaves only a 4+ cover save against melta guns.

Sure, but it is still twin-linked. Keeping distance is worth not firing as well.

Finally, the melta guns only matter if they can actually reach the Serpents. Some will, but even at 12", they aren't particularly scary.

I agree that it's hard to play games on a forum. My problem is that I can play precisely 1 game a week. I really like playing my Tyranids and I'm trying to get as much time with them as I can before the new codex drops. I have many neat list ideas but I 1) play in a non-competitive area for the most part so I don't want to just slay baby seals every weekend with my waveserpent spam list and 2) I want each game to be enjoyable for all parties involved.

I was just making the argument for the idea that BA might not be as fragile as people say. You have a fine tuned list and it would be a close game, in my mind at least. If someone doesn't come prepared to handle a CC army, I think this would roll over them.

In a non-competitive environment--sure, they can win. I just don't think they have the tools to beat the top 4 dexes. 2-3 Drakes will also make you cry. However, if you have fun playing them, who really cares? It is a cool idea at the very least.

Yes, I actually own the models and they're all painted like Night Lords... just using BA rules because I like them better.

When 6th came out I thought that jump pack/bike armies were going to be the best. With Flesh hound lists, I thought that would be enough to overcome shooting. However, the balance is just tipped too far in Tau/Eldar shooting's way.

I usually play my BA in the 5th edition style. Mephiston, corbulo w/sternguard, a landraider with death company and whatever else I can fit in. I like a 'one of everything' approach more than the 'spam one thing' approach. 64 marines with jump packs looks awesome on the table but would probably be boring to play across a 3-5 game tournament.

So I think people are selling this idea short on how effective it can be. At 2k points I could run

Librarian (no reason for level 2) Jump pack
3 Jump Priests
6 x 10 Assault Marines w/ 2 Melta

Dark Angels Libby, Jump pack power field generator

2 x 10 Tacticals with lascannons.

So 85 MEQ bodies.

Now I'm not saying you will win games through sheer beat down, but simply by having tons of scoring, and durability.

Combat squad everything, and use mobility to stay out of range of many lots of shooting, then move up turn 4 and 5 to take objectives.

People keep quoting 40 fire warriors for killing things. What you really have is 4 x 10. 10 Firewarriors (assuming BS5) beyond Rapid fire kill 1.2 Marines. SO all 4 shooting will kill 1 combat squad per turn. I have 16.... even within rapid fire each squad kills 3.7 marines meaning I sitll have 1-2 left in that squad that you need to kill. IF you don't they run and hide to take objectives later.

Heck I'm not eve sure I want the priests, I may be better off with more 3+ save bodies.

THis list is a nightmare for wave serpent spam, it just won't kill enough.

I agree though it is not that fun to play, you will mostly move, try to get out of LOS/range, use mobility etc to dictate engagements...

Breng77 wrote:
This list is a nightmare for wave serpent spam, it just won't kill enough.

The units of D-Scythe Wraithguard, Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers (commonly with rerolls) usually found within the Wave Serpents disagree with you.

Again, I see a lot of theory and numbers but it's clear that you haven't actually tried to run this list. I do think dropping some jump packs to take some Tacticals is a good idea, though. It's possible that you could win games simply by objectives, but that's considering you've tried squeezing the absolute most you can out of the Codex against a not-terribly-competitive list from almost any other.

I've not seen fire dragons in a wave serpent since the new codex dropped. But even then..they fire and kill 5 marines max, then get tarpitted or killed...Same with the 200 point dscythe squad, though maybe they kill 2 units, prior to being tarpitted.

As for dire avengers (only 4 squads max have re-rolls, and if all the squads are getting out, that is great for me.)

10 Dire Avengers with re-rolls = ginving them 2 rends, they kill 4 ish marines without FNP and 3.5 without. Which means it takes 2 units shooting to kill 1 unit. Which also means you have moved up to within 18". (most frequently though those DA units are only 5 guys, which means it is closer to 3 or 4 units shooting...)

I'm not saying it is a great TAC list, but I do think it gives eldar some problems, and using durability and mobility can win boring games on objectives.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck if you want to go really boring with less jumpers you could field a DA/BA list with 122 MEQ bodies.

I see what he's saying. But Helldrakes and demonic flying circus just laugh at you mercilessly.

Sorry Just don't see that as the case. Lets assume 3 Heldrakes, all coming in turn 2. At most they are killing 4 combat squads per turn. Which means they can kill all the marines (assuming no FNP or 4++ save) in 3 Turns, assuming you don't manuver out of their attack arc, and they all come in. That also assumes the you see 3 heldrakes, which is no longer popular because Tau, and Eldar mop the floor with that build.

Well there's more than just helldrakes. But maybe there are even worse things than helldrakes now that I think about it.

Correct there are other things than heldrakes, but that means you can try to run forward into the assault with many of those things to avoid heldrakes.

Like I said, it is not a great list, or great fun, but if you run and hide, and essentially don't play the game, and try to win on objectives, you have a chance. It is just boring so most won't do it.