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Blood Angels have a unique ability to bring 63 marines to the table at 1750. All of them have jump packs, 3 of them are jump priests and 1 is a librarian. The squads have melta guns, there are 12 in the list I've got.

Do you think this would stack up against some of the more competitive lists? Here's what it looks like at 1660... some upgrades will bring it up to snuff.

Librarian, level 2, Shield of Sanguinus, str 10 power (so he can go strength 10, would a MC and force weapon it)

3 Jump Sanguinary Priests

6x 10 Assault squad, 2 melta guns


The idea is 1st turn you are already 12" + D6" up the field. All fo your guys are within 6" of the librarian and at least 1 priest. That means everyone has a 3+ armor, 5+ cover and 5+ FNP automatically.

I figure wave serpent spam would be hard pressed to fight this. I played wave serpents in 5th and I know jump pack lists would run all over me. Granted, this was before TL everything str 6 rending and str 7 bull crap but I had a rough time against jumpers. You're mobile enough to multi-assault threats like flesh hounds and the priest is your go to for killing big MCs.

With the push to shooting-based lists, I see fast close combat armies taking a big step forward. I don't care who you are, nothing is more deadly in 40k than a sweeping advance. And all of the best shooting armies right now are Xenos.

It's spammy... I don't like spam. But I have the models. Do you think it's good on its own or is it more of a spoiler list at a tournament?

Seems a bit lacking when it comes to hitting power.

No power weapons, for the most part only boltpistols, and a (comparatively) low atack count.


Would like to hear how it acted on the table however.

No, this doesn't work. I can safely say this as someone who almost exclusively uses jump-pack Blood Angels for the hell of it and because I'm stubborn - though admittedly I do use some of the more expensive options like Death Company so at 1750 points I'd have closer to 40-45 models.

To be completely clear - I can still do well against a couple of the older Codexes in the right circumstances, like say Orks or Nids. Then there are older Codexes that were always a bad matchup - Space Wolves still muller us through the combination of Grey Hunter craziness and Long Fangs spamming, which are both so damn cheap that having extra bodies doesn't account for much. Imperial Guard were always going to blow us straight out of the water and deep-striking in to take advantage of getting the alpha strike was the only way to pull that off - we can no longer do that with a maximum 50% reserve limit.

The newer armies have a combination of increased firepower and cheaper units across the board - so that numbers advantage you mention becomes less true with every Codex that gets released. We only ever had it against elite-style armies like Deathwing or Wraithhosts anyway.

Short answer - our units aren't actually all that cheap. If you take jump packs on everything, even with the most basic Assault Marines, those new armies that don't still outnumber us anyway are going to be bringing enough tricks and firepower that we still get murdered anyway.

arent jumppack marines like 2x the cost or close to it? and have less options for toys?

thats the overall problem with jump units, theyre usually overpriced to be spammed.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

With the push to shooting-based lists, I see fast close combat armies taking a big step forward. I don't care who you are, nothing is more deadly in 40k than a sweeping advance. And all of the best shooting armies right now are Xenos.

Problem is that they are shooty armies with neat tricks against assaults. In an edition where assault has got the nerfhammer in the face anyways.

Your BA army would beat a shooty Ork, a non-Wolfpack IG and even a DE army. But against the Tau Master Race? Wiped Out BA at the start of Turn 3 or 4. At 1660 points I have 3 Riptides and 2 Sky Rays to deliver the S8 AP2/3 love alongside the 40 Fire Warriors, the Ethereal and 21 Pathfinders. There is no way in hell that 63 MEQ can survive the firepower of that army.

But again, if you avoid the Tau Master Race then the army could work, I can see the potential in it (though I'm not a BA player) .

Isn't it that the Heldrake is the sole reason why BA jump spam is not the best option?
Or does it really struggle against other things?

Back in the 5th ed I was thinking about starting such a force after getting all the things I wanted for my Eldar army but in 6th ed somehow I lost interest.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
arent jumppack marines like 2x the cost or close to it? and have less options for toys?

thats the overall problem with jump units, theyre usually overpriced to be spammed.

Try 2 points more. 18 points for a BA assault marine, 16 pts for a BA Tac.

wow thats insanely cheap compared to the normal thing.

Guess im just used to Stormboyz which are DOUBLE the cost of Boyz for the speed and dont even have any big guns or armor options

 AtoMaki wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

With the push to shooting-based lists, I see fast close combat armies taking a big step forward. I don't care who you are, nothing is more deadly in 40k than a sweeping advance. And all of the best shooting armies right now are Xenos.

Problem is that they are shooty armies with neat tricks against assaults. In an edition where assault has got the nerfhammer in the face anyways.

Your BA army would beat a shooty Ork, a non-Wolfpack IG and even a DE army. But against the Tau Master Race? Wiped Out BA at the start of Turn 3 or 4. At 1660 points I have 3 Riptides and 2 Sky Rays to deliver the S8 AP2/3 love alongside the 40 Fire Warriors, the Ethereal and 21 Pathfinders. There is no way in hell that 63 MEQ can survive the firepower of that army.

But again, if you avoid the Tau Master Race then the army could work, I can see the potential in it (though I'm not a BA player) .

40 firewarriors * 4 shots = 160 shots. I'll give you BS 5 which means 133 hit. Out of that 88.66666 wound which is 29.6 after saves. Then, 19.7 after FNP. After that, the BA are on you with 43 marines which is more than enough to kill all of that (minus the riptides). Over watch from all 160 (which wouldn't happen, I'd assault the outer units first that might only get overwatch from 1 other squad) kills 4 marines. So right about 40 marines crashing into Tau lines turn 2 is bad biz.

I played with my Tyranids against 3 Riptides and 3 Hammerheads last weekend and, to be honest, those 6 models did very little. You might get a few hits with the riptides but they really don't seem to do much.

I messed up the math btw... too lazy to retype it all out but I thought you had a fireblade in there. I faced one this weekend... It's like 15 wounds after FNP. Followed by 3 dead on overwatch.


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And if I can space myself out right, I can avoid the 15" rapid fire completely with my jump packs.

40 shots at range is 5 wounds.

Again, all math is calculated with BS 5.

Tough matchup, but winable. That is a rough list though, a good list to run test games against. Depending on the riptides, it could really shift the game.





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Heldrake, let's say it hits 5 marines with the flamer. With FNP that's only 2.7777 wounds.

The vector strike... with the average roll of 3 hits is 1.66666666 wounds with FNP.


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Venoms

12 shots
8 hit
4 wound
1.3333 get past armor
.88888 get past FNP


Guided

1.185 wounds.



Waveserpent

TL everything
3.55555 hits with scatter lasers
2.96 wounds
.65 actually get past saves

TL Shuriken Cannon
.49 wounds
Any rends = .44444 wounds (cover from Shield, FNP)

Force Shield (assume 4.5 shots)
.74 wounds

Yeah I think you missed the large ST 9 AP 2 blasts from the riptides in there. Tau massacre BA jumpers. Been there, done that. They also can back up and shoot, giving them another turn of shooting. Curtains.

Librarian, level 2, Shield of Sanguinus, str 10 power (so he can go strength 10, would a MC and force weapon it)

Why not Diviniation and an axe? It's so much better.
Your list counts 64 models, not 63

And it might work, just depends on where and what you play against.
Don't expect to win tournaments, but you will have fun I think.

A year ago? Sure. Post Helldrake/CSM FAQ? No chance.

If you opt for str 9, 1 out of 3 will take a wound each turn.

I really wasn't impressed with the template this weekend... I bet you'd get 3 per 'hit', less if you roll wide.

To put it into perspective, I puppet mastered a riptide every turn and he fire them at me every turn and their total kill count was 1 gant, 1 fire warrior and 1 spore pod. They killed a few gargoyles in assault and then died. Granted, he had no markerlights but blasts are not that great especially if you're BS 3


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Kangodo wrote:

Librarian, level 2, Shield of Sanguinus, str 10 power (so he can go strength 10, would a MC and force weapon it)

Why not Diviniation and an axe? It's so much better.
Your list counts 64 models, not 63

And it might work, just depends on where and what you play against.
Don't expect to win tournaments, but you will have fun I think.

Because I lose shield of sanguinius... lol. I NEED that power! Str 10 will help with the Wraithknights I'm bound to face.


Maybe if I take a whirlwind with the remaining points? That would give me a nice str 5 ap 4 template to blast tau away with from affar. If that's my hardest counter maybe I should do that.

Wraithknights can challenge out your libby anyway and are init 5. They must be shot.

I prefer a 33% chance on a 4+ inv over a 100% 5+ cover mostly because the other power will be so much better than what the codex can give.
And you have plenty of melta that should work, maybe even give some meltabombs to sergeants?
That S10 might not be needed.

I have 60 points left in that list when all Sergeants have meltabombs, so I would use those points to upgrade the weapons on the priests and Librarian.
Maybe a few melta/plasma-pistols and such.

Martel732 wrote:
Wraithknights can challenge out your libby anyway and are init 5. They must be shot.

Is that true? I may be wrong, but I thought they were I4 and non-characters.


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Kangodo wrote:
I prefer a 33% chance on a 4+ inv over a 100% 5+ cover mostly because the other power will be so much better than what the codex can give.
And you have plenty of melta that should work, maybe even give some meltabombs to sergeants?
That S10 might not be needed.

I have 60 points left in that list when all Sergeants have meltabombs, so I would use those points to upgrade the weapons on the priests and Librarian.
Maybe a few melta/plasma-pistols and such.

oh, well you are much more of a gambler than I am! haha

Of course, with adequate terrain 5+ wouldn't be too hard to get. I just like it because it is the whole unit rather than who is obscured.

I'll play around with it.

They are non-character and I5, so you are both right

It's not just about gambling.
But so many stuff ignore cover nowadays that 5++ is nothing special any more.
Rerolling to hits, ignoring cover, 3D6 for Reserves and 4++ < It all seems so perfect!

The divination-tree is the only thing that is actually keeping me in the BA instead of going Ravenguard right away.

I think Ravenguard will have the strengths of a new codex behind them and the added ability to reroll charge ranges (essentially fleet)... but no FNP will mean a lot more dead marines.

Besides, I don't think they'll have them as troops. I dunno, I really want them to keep jump pack armies for blood angels.

BA isnt the only list that can do this. A Legion list where Assault marines are troops can pull it off. Make them Sons of Horus for the extra attack at the end.

Throw in three Consuls either two primus medicaes with jump packs(think captain level apothecaries with all the normal upgrades) and a Moritat with twin plasma pistols and a Destroyer squad or all three jump pack apothecaries.

Add in a Praetor souped up for close combat and a jump pack.

Fill the rest of the points with 20 man Assault squads. You can spend 50 points extra and give the whole squad melta bombs.

Now you still have Hell drake issues, but that is still a ton of MEQs flying across the field at you.

BTW with Korvidae RG will be able to have assault squads as troops, I think its all, might just be one.

FNP is a 78% chance to save over a 66% chance without against a weapon that allows a power armor save. Not that many more against small arms.

But it's something.

It's a 33% chance to save against Heldrakes.

It's a rerollable coversave against plasma equivalents.

So... if you took 100 wounds, it will save 12 marines in the first instance, 33 marines in the second instance and 22 marines in the third. It comes with another detachable body, basically a second sergeant, that also grants FC. I'd take it. However, I could see the argument for dropping the third and going to a 1585 core. With 165 points you could buy something substantive.


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Maybe a VV squad, just to keep the theme and kill off those pesky markerlight squads!

Maybe C:SM might be able to get some good jump pack spam. RG CT, cheaper Vanguards, cheaper ASM, and the tactic helps with using the jump pack in the movement and assault phases. The remaining question is how hard they will hit. I think that if they can get some good options for weapons, we might see more people use C:SM ASM.

Martel732 wrote:
FNP is a 78% chance to save over a 66% chance without against a weapon that allows a power armor save. Not that many more against small arms.

It's almost a 2+, that is good enough for me.
FNP is so good because it almost turns them into terminators.

Col. Dash wrote:
BTW with Korvidae RG will be able to have assault squads as troops, I think its all, might just be one.

All ASM, but you need one group of scouts with it.
That's definitely worth it.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:40 firewarriors * 4 shots = 160 shots...

Uhh... do you know how much 40 firewarriors cost? I'll give you a hint, not 1700 points.

While those firewarriors are busy wiping out a third of your army in a single volley, you have to deal with the entire rest of the tau army. It's not just cover-ignoring suits and riptides. At the same time you could be seeing 12 Missile sides, which put out 48 TL Str 7, and 48 TL Str 5 per turn. That's another 20 marines killed, or 13 after FNP (assuming you even have it once the guard are picked off)

Put another way, that's two groups of units putting down 33-40 marines. In a single turn. In a single volley. Now your eviscerated jump troops charge into the kroot screen, or whatever, and they eat ultra-overwatch, and your maybe dozen marines stagger out of close combat having caused non-serious casualties. Your army is then tabled the next turn.

I wouldn't even give it that much against a wave serpent spam army. They get two turns to shoot at you (youre fast, but so are they), and then, if you blow up the vehicles with your krak grenades, you eat fire dragons and rending bladestorm. And that's after your opponpents' support units have had their way with you as well.

I mean, it wouldn't even do that good against mechvets as you eat a couple of turns of double tap plasma in addition to whatever the guard player has to offer just so that you can kill a few 55 point transports.

No, mech gunlines are the counter to fast armies, not the other way around.

The 40 firewarriors, rapid firing with fireblades get 4 shots each. There is an ethereal involved also. rapid firing firewarriors will get charged by jump infantry in the next turn.

He posted up an equivalent (in this instance, 1660 points) tau list and I disected it. I don't know how much 12 broadsides cost, but can you take them with 21 pathfinders?

The math I did was at BS 5 for everybody.

If you drop to BS 3 and 3 shots for everyone (the posted list has just one ethereal) it drops down to just 9 wounds within rapid fire range.

Maybe a fragioso or something would be worthwhile, for disruption early on. I need something to throw in my opponent's face to distract him on one of the few turns of shooting he'll get.


Trust me, the hardest games I've played with my Tau and my mech eldar were against Jumpers. The only reason I won with my Tau was because I brought Nob Bikerz as allies.

The new tau codex has only been out for a couple of months. Just how many games have you played against jumpers in that time?

Just because fast armies were good against old tau doesn't mean they're good against new tau. If new tau can table a ravenwing player before the DA player got to his turn 3 (which I've seen happen), then new tau can certainly handle some guys with jump packs.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

He posted up an equivalent (in this instance, 1660 points) tau list and I disected it.

"Disected it"? Where? You just said that a section of it (the 40 FWs and 1 Ethereal, a mere 25% of the army) can kill 14 MEQ. Don't worry, they are just there for the clean-up. The Riptides and the Sky Rays will do the brunt of the job (and the Pathfinders of course). I would just focus down the Libby (the Sky Rays alone can do that) and let the Rapetide loose on your assault marines. I can tie up 3 squads, destroy 2 Turn 1 so it leaves 1 unit of Assault Marines to charge and eat the megaoverwatch of the Tau Master Race.

And I don't even start with the scenario where the Tau Master Race has the first turn...

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

I don't know how much 12 broadsides cost, but can you take them with 21 pathfinders?

With 12 Missilesides, you bring 30 Pathfinders and not "just" 21. Though they tend to come instead of the Riptides that is good news for your army.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Maybe a fragioso or something would be worthwhile, for disruption early on. I need something to throw in my opponent's face to distract him on one of the few turns of shooting he'll get.

That's a very good idea. But make it two. The Tau Master Race has EWO, and Dreads don't like EWO.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

Trust me, the hardest games I've played with my Tau and my mech eldar were against Jumpers. The only reason I won with my Tau was because I brought Nob Bikerz as allies.

I dunno. I play a lot with my Tau against all sorts of armies and the closest to your composition (a Hound-heavy CD list) was an easy ride. i can't see massed jump infantry as a scary opponent, unless I have some sort of messed-up army (like Kroot-only Troops or something similarly crazy).

A couple of assumptions I think your forgetting.

A your Priests can be sniped out.
B No fliers. Necron flier lists will walk all over you
C your math argues an equally unbiased mathhammer vs mathhammer fight. I good general doesn't care about mathhammer.
D Strength 8 negates your FNP. one unit of dragons can devastate a unit of Marines

Jope that helps make a decision =)

Good generals certainly should are about mathhammer as each decision you make on the battlefield is ultimately mathematical.

Mali wrote:
A couple of assumptions I think your forgetting.

A your Priests can be sniped out.
B No fliers. Necron flier lists will walk all over you
C your math argues an equally unbiased mathhammer vs mathhammer fight. I good general doesn't care about mathhammer.
D Strength 8 negates your FNP. one unit of dragons can devastate a unit of Marines

Jope that helps make a decision =)

A) Look out, Sir!
B) The flyers aren't that dangerous, you just need to kill the troops, their Wraiths (shouldn't be that hard) and win by Victory Points.
C) Huh?
D) That's why you have 64 models.