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It's not just helldrakes anymore. BA overcostedness makes us extremely vulnerable to Tau and Eldar raw firepower. Especially with Eldar, because they are not as helpless in HTH as Tau.

Even with FNP and shield of sanguinius, I can't make enough saves to avoid having my squads crippled.

DS & flamers my friends. Wipe out those T3 gunlines with fire.

Even for BA, it's trivial to DS out side the optimal range of a flamer. I don't fear any army using DS, and I can't imagine why the Tau or Eldar would care either.

I wanna see how the mass infantry list does vs the CSM/BL shenanigans everyone has been whining about...


Otherwise, it mass infantry seems interesting. If you go vs top armies like Taudar, Crons+GK, Flying Circus... Etc. you'll get torn apart though.

Lucarikx

Wow that is a broken list. I would refuse to play that person ever again. The only way I can see beating it is having a prepared list, Drop podding sternguard and trying for a first turn wipe.

The only way I can see an Assault marine army beat it is deep striking behind the drakes and hoping for good hits(asuming the drakes are AV10 rear) and having DP'd Sternguard to try and wipe what started on the board.

Against 7 drakes, try to get first turn....run across the board as quickly as possible into the assault (if you can get most of your stuff stuck in turn 2 when a majority of the drakes come on you can reduce the damage they do, Really only the heldrakes are scarey. After you wipe out all the troops (by turn 3 or 4) jump around and try to keep something alive that can score.

As for facing top armies....again if you don't generally try to fight them you won't get torn apart, yo'll just be trying to stay alive with your ton of scoring bodies.....

As for that Broken CSM list....meh the Daemon list above would have a good chance to beat it (once you put in some scoring units). Get 2++ save on screamers...multi charge cultists, wipe them out. Fly FMCs around away from drakes.

As someone who uses many of the lists BA struggles with and has a wife who uses some more armies that BA struggles with, I have to say that a mass jump list if going against my Wife's standard Eldar list would soak up fire from Suncannons and Wave Serpents all game long while being left to do little but stare angrily at the Nighthunters that shot down the stormraven.

And if they do crack open a wave serpent, they'll find a D-scythe carrying surprise to template them off the table. Any open objectives will then be taken by Wraithblades with axes and shields once the campers are wiped out by the Wraithguard.

Me? My honestly most competetive army, a Dark Harvest list, would have little but royal courts, Tomb Stalkers, and wraiths waiting for you on the ground while fliers buzz around killing everything.

How large are these armies? So a sun cannon Wraithknight is what 280+ points, so for multiples you are looking at a good chunk of points, then you have d-scythe Wraithguard in serpents (minimum 315 point) and Wraith blades. (160). I'm not even talkign FW stuff (as again many events don't allow it, and I don't know the points, but there is no storm raven in the list).

So I would be looking at for your wife what at 2k points (guessing)

Spirit seer
2 x 5 Dcythe Wraithguard in serpents
2 x 5 Wraith Blades in Serpents
2 Wraithknights with suncannons
Nighthunters (whatever they are/do)

Simply would not be able to kill 90+ 3+ save bodies. If I hide in terrain and out of LOS, you just don't do enough damage. Some lascannons etc shoot at wraithknights or serpents.

As for Necrons again not enough damage output. You are again like most assuming I would take the fight to you. Run across the table and fight. If I don't necron flyers don't kill marines very quickly.

You are right, I won't do much, but that is kind of the point, I'm doing just that, not much except not dying.

Breng77 wrote:
How large are these armies? So a sun cannon Wraithknight is what 280+ points, so for multiples you are looking at a good chunk of points, then you have d-scythe Wraithguard in serpents (minimum 315 point) and Wraith blades. (160). I'm not even talkign FW stuff (as again many events don't allow it, and I don't know the points, but there is no storm raven in the list).

So I would be looking at for your wife what at 2k points (guessing)

Spirit seer
2 x 5 Dcythe Wraithguard in serpents
2 x 5 Wraith Blades in Serpents
2 Wraithknights with suncannons
Nighthunters (whatever they are/do)

Simply would not be able to kill 90+ 3+ save bodies. If I hide in terrain and out of LOS, you just don't do enough damage. Some lascannons etc shoot at wraithknights or serpents.

As for Necrons again not enough damage output. You are again like most assuming I would take the fight to you. Run across the table and fight. If I don't necron flyers don't kill marines very quickly.

You are right, I won't do much, but that is kind of the point, I'm doing just that, not much except not dying.

Primarily 2-3k games, with the occasional 4-5k non-apocalypse game.

And I kinda derped on the name, they're called Nightwings, and they're perhaps the single best air superiority fighter in the game. Though sometimes she takes warp spiders or hornets instead.

Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

No need for that, while it helps I really don't want to be fighting him anyway. I prefer to go with Divination.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

How is this even remotely an answer to a wraithknight? The wraithknight swings first, is S10 BASE, and a libby has no invulnerable of any kind. The Wraithknight will only need to inflict a single wound to kill you, with 4 attacks the odds of the libby surviving are fairly remote. The eldar player can throw prescience on the wraithknight if he want's to ensure the kill.

Divination is very strong, but shield of sanguinius has a mechanic no longer available in the psyker rules. Of course, Tau can just take that save away. So I don't know.

 Thaylen wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

How is this even remotely an answer to a wraithknight? The wraithknight swings first, is S10 BASE, and a libby has no invulnerable of any kind. The Wraithknight will only need to inflict a single wound to kill you, with 4 attacks the odds of the libby surviving are fairly remote. The eldar player can throw prescience on the wraithknight if he want's to ensure the kill.

Right, the Librarian is in a squad of marines and since the wraithknight isn't a character he can't pick him out. Literally, this is the ONLY way a Jumper list can handle multiple MCs. I would consider giving the librarian an Axe just so that he can sneak past the 2+ save of a Riptide.

Good players are not going to let that libby kill their MCs. The squad with the librarian is going to get melted or fed a different target.

Also, can't greater demons issue challenges?

Martel732 wrote:
Divination is very strong, but shield of sanguinius has a mechanic no longer available in the psyker rules. Of course, Tau can just take that save away. So I don't know.

What mechanic is that?

I look at it as expending your opponent's resources. You essentially take away 2 ML tokens per Ap 3 or lower weapon just to take the cover save away. That's -2 BS to another unit.

4 ML tokens
-2 to take away cover
-2 to make a Riptide BS5 for the blast

as oppose to

4 ML tokens
-2 to make a Riptide BS5 for the blast
-2 to make a Riptide BS5 for the blast

The ability to spend warp charges to cast spells on your opponent's turn. This allows your level 1 libby to cast alternating spells. Of course, he costs as much as a level 2 DA libby, so it just makes the BA suck a bit less.

And the Tau don't care about Shield of Sanguinius. Been there, done that. Lost those games.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

 Thaylen wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
Wraithknights are why you go ML 2 on your BA librarian.

You want to go Str 10 and then still be able to Force Weapon the thing.

How is this even remotely an answer to a wraithknight? The wraithknight swings first, is S10 BASE, and a libby has no invulnerable of any kind. The Wraithknight will only need to inflict a single wound to kill you, with 4 attacks the odds of the libby surviving are fairly remote. The eldar player can throw prescience on the wraithknight if he want's to ensure the kill.

Right, the Librarian is in a squad of marines and since the wraithknight isn't a character he can't pick him out. Literally, this is the ONLY way a Jumper list can handle multiple MCs. I would consider giving the librarian an Axe just so that he can sneak past the 2+ save of a Riptide.

Reread the Eldar Codex, Wraithknights are indeed characters, they will challenge you right out.

That's what I thought Thaylen, but I wasn't sure. I always shoot them to death but then get mopped up by all the wave serpents.

So basically, jumper lists can't handle MCs, and this is my in-game experience. They munch you like pac-man.

Reread the Eldar Codex, Wraithknights are indeed characters, they will challenge you right out.

No....no they aren't.

Under the entry for Wraithknight, the codex specifically states that they are jump monstrous creatures. The summary sheet does not have the (ch) next to it. They are not characters.

There are just so many incorrect rules being thrown around in this thread that I wonder if people here even play the game.

Well as I said, I always shoot them and avoid HTH, so I wouldn't know. I know that I don't want to be fighting them in HTH. Seriously, what else am I going to shoot? The wave serpents?

It doesn't really matter. If the Eldar player is concerned, they can just make the libby's squad a smoking crater before they become an issue. This proposal is a non-solution.

Basically, the fundamental problem is that a shooting list chooses which squads you lose and for an assault list, your opponent chooses which squads they lose. Not a recipe for success in 6th.

Flying MC's (*correction, anything flying) is the Bane of jump-pack based BA. The only 'soft' counters you have to them are not jump. Best bets are

- Sternguard if they are able to get a round and a half of shooting.
- TH/SS terminators
- Stormraven unloading its whole payload.

Thats it, and they are all costly and/or slow.

With the arrival of the C:SM codex and assuming the rumors are true I am making a Iron hands captian /w eternal sheild, pf, artifice armor and a JP to be my jump based MC cc counter. Pricey as hell but better then any of the JP based characters in our book.

Too bad I have many BA specific models and I'm likely not able to even field a "counts as army" even if I felt like it. I'll check out C:SM when it drops, but I have a feeling that to update my list to that will cost too much $$.

Given that this will be yet another list I basically have little to no chance against, I feel that GW is pushing me out until they finally drop a BA codex.

MY FLGS owner explained that GW really banks on players owning multiple armies. They expect that someone in my position would have run out and bought Necrons, not keep losing with BA over and over.

Save my sanguinary guard and named characters, my models are the same as the C:SM so I am going to give it a shot.

Using C:SM as the main body /w Ironhands (for the weaker fnp I am used to) and BA as allies for the JP troops and divination librarian (which the C:Sm codex dosent have on regular librarian). It may be a bastardized union and not a in-book BA fix, but I am looking forward to using jump troops without viewing it as lost cause.

I'm not sold on shield of sanguinius. I would rather have prescience. Sure I can maybe make you spend 2 marker lights, or you can shoot me with shots that don't ignore my armor. I can also just use terrain for cover or other units. As for the Libby fighting the dreadknight that means spending what 165 points for the libby to make him effective? I'd rather keep mine cheap and opt for more bodies.

My current variation (that I am playing against a pretty strong Tau list on a saved Vassal Game is)

Libby
40 Assault marines (melta bombs 2 Melta guns each)
20 Tactical Marines (missile plas each)
5 Missile Devastators

DA Libby
20 Tacticals (lascannons)
5 Lascannon Devs.

Currently bottom of 2 in the game. Mission hammer and anvil and relic. I lost first blood but currently have the relic. I've killed 4 Broad sides and 8 missile drones, and ~30 kroot. Lost about 15 Assault Marines.

My rolling has been pretty awful so far (I think I am averaging making about 1/3rd of my 3+ saves)

I am hoping you have priests sprinkled throughout that army.

I find that I can't often count on terrain. Plus, shield of sanguinius can mimic smoke launchers for mech lists. It's far from amazing, but it's a thing. Like with all BA things, it's too little for too many points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hazal wrote:
Save my sanguinary guard and named characters, my models are the same as the C:SM so I am going to give it a shot.

Using C:SM as the main body /w Ironhands (for the weaker fnp I am used to) and BA as allies for the JP troops and divination librarian (which the C:Sm codex dosent have on regular librarian). It may be a bastardized union and not a in-book BA fix, but I am looking forward to using jump troops without viewing it as lost cause.

Let's see I have jump marines with weapons C:SM can't have, Baal preds, sanguinary priests, several foot assault troops, las/plas razors I'd never use if they weren't fast. Oh and a Stormraven I'd never use if I were C:SM. Oh, and fragnoughts and sanguinary guard. Yeah...

 JGrand wrote:

Reread the Eldar Codex, Wraithknights are indeed characters, they will challenge you right out.

No....no they aren't.

Under the entry for Wraithknight, the codex specifically states that they are jump monstrous creatures. The summary sheet does not have the (ch) next to it. They are not characters.

There are just so many incorrect rules being thrown around in this thread that I wonder if people here even play the game.

I misread the unit summary. You have the right of this. I'll have to let the eldar players at my FLGS know about this.

 hazal wrote:
I am hoping you have priests sprinkled throughout that army.

NO no priests, I looked at fitting them in but there are a few issues with them

1.) They are expensive 50 points + pack which is 3-4 more marine bodies on the table. Which is not too bad but when you want 3+ priests to really get a sufficient ammount of FNP you are talking about whole squads worth of models. The FNP would need to save 15-20 models to make it worth paying those points in this type of list.

2.) They cause you to clump up, with only a 6" bubble it means all your units need to be close to benefit, I would rather be able to spread out and not worry.

3.) The list functions best when you combat squad everything (it makes people overkill units to finish them off.), which means the priest is in a 5 man squad, and easy to eliminate for his points.

My hybrid mech list only has a single priest for this reason.