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Breng77 wrote:
So I think people are selling this idea short on how effective it can be. At 2k points I could run

Librarian (no reason for level 2) Jump pack
3 Jump Priests
6 x 10 Assault Marines w/ 2 Melta

Dark Angels Libby, Jump pack power field generator

2 x 10 Tacticals with lascannons.

Alright I'll post some random TAC 2k lists, you tell me how you'll beat them, we'll discuss.
Número Uno:
Nids-
HQ
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers

Troops
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. Toxin sacs, adrenal glands, 2 extra psychic powers
Tervigon w. 2 extra psychic powers
10 termagants
10 termagants
10 termagants
10 termagants

Elites
Doom in spod

SO I am working off single FOC for this 2k list (as that is how most people I play with tend to play and most large tournaments.). Otherwise I don't need allies to make the list I posted.

So if you want to go single FOC at 2k,or at 1850 drop the 3 Sanguinary Priests. and go up to DA libby at ML 2.

But regardless agaist that list. Avoid doom he is slow. Play the mission (kill gaunts, melta/lascannon Troop tervigons, contest objectives, probably Tie.) I don't really see how that list kills me that well either.

Again it would be a boring game. I would stay away mostly kill some Gaunts for first blood, try to tie out the rest and win on that.

Right. There's a guy on Warseer who used this scheme for a quite a while but I think even he gave up on it in terms of fun to effectiveness ratio.

Plus, it's not fluffy at all for BA to run and hide. I don't want a codex as crazy as the Eldar for BA, but GW needs to give them some assault love when they get their book.

I don't disagree on I lacking in fun...it is terribly boring. Unfortunately so are a lot of effective lists. I wouldn't run out and buy the models for it. Nor do I even think it is the best BA have to offer. But if someone wanted to use it they could I just would not expect to run across the field and smash face it would be more akin to 3-4 turns of hiding the objective grab.

I don't like Stormraven spam either, but that works as well.

Breng77 wrote:
SO I am working off single FOC for this 2k list (as that is how most people I play with tend to play and most large tournaments.). Otherwise I don't need allies to make the list I posted.

So if you want to go single FOC at 2k,or at 1850 drop the 3 Sanguinary Priests. and go up to DA libby at ML 2.

But regardless agaist that list. Avoid doom he is slow. Play the mission (kill gaunts, melta/lascannon Troop tervigons, contest objectives, probably Tie.) I don't really see how that list kills me that well either.

Again it would be a boring game. I would stay away mostly kill some Gaunts for first blood, try to tie out the rest and win on that.

All of your non-DA models have only range 12", so if you are shooting me, you are within easy assault range. The doom is not easy to avoid in his spod. I dictate where he comes down, and you have no interceptor fire, so he is taking out at least 10 models a turn by himself.

You have vastly underestimated tervigon survivability. You have 2 lascannons and 12 meltaguns. Ignoring for a second the fact that you will be in charge range of my whole army, you will cause very few casualties on tervigons.
Assuming FnP is active (rather than iron arm, so this analogy is favouring you)
Chance for meltagun to cause a wound is (2/3)*(5/6)*(2/3) so the modal average of 12 meltaguns is 13*(10/27) = 4 wounds
Lascannon chance to wound is the same so I'll add those in: 15*(10/27) = 5 wounds.
If I add in the 80ish bolt shots
81*(2/3)*(1/6)*(1/3)*(2/3) = 1 or 2 wounds have equal probability. Which means the combined shooting of your entire army could drop one tervigon a turn, but you'd have one turn of shooting, and I'd have 7 more tervigons and 200+ gants assaulting you immediately afterwards.

Short answer = you would lose almost instantly if you allowed yourself within 12"

How do you figure on the Doom causing 10+ casualties per turn? He gets one turn of effect the turn he drops, then everything is 12+" away and never close again...... Furthermore he does on average 1-2 Casualties to each unit in his range, not including any cover saves or FNP....

Again re-work the list on a single FOC where you max out at 5 Tervigons, and each one I kill takes out a bunch of gants.

Also here is my short answer to your list....
If we don't play round 1...I never face you when you lose to Tau/Eldar.

Essentially I am building to fight the 3 most popular armies in the meta Daemons/Tau/Eldar.

Also, again I'm not saying the army is a world beater, just that in the current tournament meta (which your list does not make b/c of double FOC, and losing horribly to the top armies.) it has a chance to win games.

It is not about coming up with a list to beat a specific list (your list BTW loses horribly to 8 Rune Priests with Jaws....when all the Tervigons Die in turn 1 or 2.)

Breng77 - you have three people in this thread telling you that they've tried repeatedly using a jump list and it just plain doesn't work. You can come out with all the theory in the world, but the real-life circumstances of actual games have proven the opposite of what you propose. Actually try it, THEN if it succeeds come back and tell us we're wrong.

If I owned the models in question I would try it, alas I do not. Perhaps I will try it on Vassal, but that is hardly akin to playing a 'real' game. I know for certain I could win games with it at my LGS(I can games ringing seemingly with anything I bring.), but the only time I really play games there is when I ring at tournaments I am running, so...again not really a good sample.

I'll see if I cannot get a good player I know on vassal to bring their tournament army against it and see what happens. Just not so sure I want 3+ hours of pure boredom that would be entailed with playing the list the way I would play it to win.

I see what Breng is talking about, and I think it would do exactly what he claims it would. But very few want to play that list.

The swarmiest swarm of jump swarmers in 6th ed would be 180 gargoyles in double force org. Only comes to 1080 to 1440 depending on upgrades. It would be a hit or miss list, but it should would be a swarm.

Breng77 wrote:
How do you figure on the Doom causing 10+ casualties per turn? He gets one turn of effect the turn he drops, then everything is 12+" away and never close again...... Furthermore he does on average 1-2 Casualties to each unit in his range, not including any cover saves or FNP....

Again re-work the list on a single FOC where you max out at 5 Tervigons, and each one I kill takes out a bunch of gants.

Also here is my short answer to your list....
If we don't play round 1...I never face you when you lose to Tau/Eldar.

Essentially I am building to fight the 3 most popular armies in the meta Daemons/Tau/Eldar.

Also, again I'm not saying the army is a world beater, just that in the current tournament meta (which your list does not make b/c of double FOC, and losing horribly to the top armies.) it has a chance to win games.

It is not about coming up with a list to beat a specific list (your list BTW loses horribly to 8 Rune Priests with Jaws....when all the Tervigons Die in turn 1 or 2.)

1) The doom would kill 1-2 per squad, from about 5 different combat squads, then use his blast power to kill another 3-5.
2) I shouldn't have to use single FOC, many tournaments use double quite happily.
3) This was just an example, I'll come up with a list from one of those armies later.
4) Fair enough, not the best decision in the world though.
5) Every army has a chance to win games. And again, not all tournaments are restricted to single FOC.
6) I know it's not, this is just a TAC list that has exactly one really bad match up, and even that is very uncommon, and can be mitigated, given that I deny the witch on a 5+, then pass the test on a 1-4. So only 2/9 times am I losing a tervigon, then next turn a rune priest is dead.

Tervigon spam isn't that uncommon on the competitive scene, and if your list can't deal with just a random list I pluck out of the air, it's probably not a competitive choice.
I'll make a tau, eldar or Daemons list for you later.

How do you get passing on a 1-4 Tervigon is I1, so YOu fail on a 3+ so 4/9 times you lose a tervigon. If I hit multiples (pretty easy when there are 8. Chances are one will die realistically if I can say hit 2 With each Priest, turn 1 3-4 should die, each one taking gants with it....

Also, no large tournament since the beginning of 6th ed (at least here in the states) has used Double FOC, they have either been 1999+1 or fewer points. As I said if you prefer 1850 remove the 3 priests.

So if I deploy in such a way that you can land Doom within 6" of 5 squads none of which are in cover, he likely kills 10 models one time, before I am out of range of his power.

Acutally building toward the current Meta (NOVA was 40+% Daemons/Tau and Eldar) is a good idea, if I have about a 50-50 chance to face one of those armies, seems like building to beat them is a good choice.

As for Tervigon spam since the beginning of 6th I have not seen an army with more than 3 Tervigons at any event.

Again I never said the list was amazing, or had no tough match-ups just that it could win games (not claiming best general at the NOVA open or adepticon or anything of the like.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So put some thought into this at 2k with Double FOC and here is what I would run (for fair comparison to the Nid list)

2k

HQ
Librarian
Librarian

Troops
6x10 Tactical (missile, Plasma gun)
4 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Melta, melta bomb sarge)
2 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Flamer)

120 Scoring 3+ save bodies
48 Bolters
48 Bolt Pistols
6 Missiles
6 Plasma
8 melta
4 Flamers

Breng77 wrote:
How do you get passing on a 1-4 Tervigon is I1, so YOu fail on a 3+ so 4/9 times you lose a tervigon. If I hit multiples (pretty easy when there are 8. Chances are one will die realistically if I can say hit 2 With each Priest, turn 1 3-4 should die, each one taking gants with it....

Also, no large tournament since the beginning of 6th ed (at least here in the states) has used Double FOC, they have either been 1999+1 or fewer points. As I said if you prefer 1850 remove the 3 priests.

So if I deploy in such a way that you can land Doom within 6" of 5 squads none of which are in cover, he likely kills 10 models one time, before I am out of range of his power.

Acutally building toward the current Meta (NOVA was 40+% Daemons/Tau and Eldar) is a good idea, if I have about a 50-50 chance to face one of those armies, seems like building to beat them is a good choice.

As for Tervigon spam since the beginning of 6th I have not seen an army with more than 3 Tervigons at any event.

Again I never said the list was amazing, or had no tough match-ups just that it could win games (not claiming best general at the NOVA open or adepticon or anything of the like.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So put some thought into this at 2k with Double FOC and here is what I would run (for fair comparison to the Nid list)

2k

HQ
Librarian
Librarian

Troops
6x10 Tactical (missile, Plasma gun)
4 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Melta, melta bomb sarge)
2 x 10 Assault Marines (2 Flamer)

120 Scoring 3+ save bodies
48 Bolters
48 Bolt Pistols
6 Missiles
6 Plasma
8 melta
4 Flamers

1) Yeah sorry I read off attacks rather than initiative for some reason
2)Fair enough, I don't know anything about the scene stateside.
3)That list would do better but it still doesn't have the tools to deal with 200+ gants and 8 MC.

Daemons list coming shortly.

I actually think it stands a pretty good chance against the Nid list, chances are good I will get first blood (you have no ranged shooting to speack of). Neither of us will eliminate the other entirely so I would work to score the secondary objectives, and tie on objectives (kill points I think I take it as the Nid list is terrible in kill points)

Hardly an auto win, and it would be tough, but I don't need to kill 200+ gants and 8 MCs, just kill enough and play the mission.

Just for kicks the Tacticals alone average killing ~ 44 Gants per turn at 24" range.

The nid list posted also does not have enough to kill 122 MEQ.

IT would really come down to who played a better game and whose dice were better.

Breng77 wrote:
I actually think it stands a pretty good chance against the Nid list, chances are good I will get first blood (you have no ranged shooting to speack of). Neither of us will eliminate the other entirely so I would work to score the secondary objectives, and tie on objectives (kill points I think I take it as the Nid list is terrible in kill points)

Hardly an auto win, and it would be tough, but I don't need to kill 200+ gants and 8 MCs, just kill enough and play the mission.

Just for kicks the Tacticals alone average killing ~ 44 Gants per turn at 24" range.

The nid list posted also does not have enough to kill 122 MEQ.

IT would really come down to who played a better game and whose dice were better.

Playing the mission is quite hard though, given that I have 4 scoring T6 W6 MCs. Sure, it's not an auto-lose for you, but given the fact that (by your own admission) tervi-spam isn't even that competitive, and your list will struggle to win against it, it shows that your list might not be the best idea on the competitive scene.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the maths on the tacticals is wrong. Assuming every single missile launcher gets two hits with the blast (quite generous), you are only killing 32 gants/turn with the tacticals, and that's being generous and assuming I have absolutely no cover.

32 with bolters + 3 with Plasma, and assuming I hit 2 Gants with each missile when you have 200+ is not being that generous. It is assuming no cover though at which point it is closer to 30. What I messed up was range at 24" is is more like 29. I accidently crossed my 24" plasma and 12" bolter math.

Also having a list that cannot compete well against a non-meta list does not make it a bad list. FMC daemons would struggle against tervigon spam as well (not that much damage output) but does ok in most tournaments.

Like I said before it is a list that through boring play, can compete. Competing is not winning large GTs. Essentially I would need to play very cagey and mistake free.

Ok here is a single FOC 2k Daemons list:
Fateweaver

Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch, exalted reward
Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch, exalted reward
Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch w. ML3, disc of tzeentch


3 nurglings

3 nurglings

3 nurglings

3 nurglings

3 nurglings


9 screamers


Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w. daemonic flight, 2 greater rewards

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w. daemonic flight, greater reward

Daemon Prince of Tzeentch w. daemonic flight, greater reward

ok so that one is easy. Combat squad surround 1 objective with all my 120 Marines maybe 2..win because you have no scoring units. Oh kill portaglyph

OR spread out and swarm objective either way...no scoring units for you = easy win for me. That daemon list (which is close to what I actually play) cannot kill 120 MEQ bodies in 5-7 turns.

Look at it this way you can effectively engage 5 units per turn (assumng I don't allow many multi charges from the screamers) I have 24 combat squads. So you essentially need every unit in your army to kill one in mine every turn to have a good chance at winning.

Even against the single FOC list, it will probably won't win because you cannot score. Use bolters to ground FMCs (especially fate weaver.)

Breng77 wrote:
ok so that one is easy. Combat squad surround 1 objective with all my 120 Marines maybe 2..win because you have no scoring units. Oh kill portaglyph

OR spread out and swarm objective either way...no scoring units for you = easy win for me. That daemon list (which is close to what I actually play) cannot kill 120 MEQ bodies in 5-7 turns.

Look at it this way you can effectively engage 5 units per turn (assumng I don't allow many multi charges from the screamers) I have 24 combat squads. So you essentially need every unit in your army to kill one in mine every turn to have a good chance at winning.

Even against the single FOC list, it will probably won't win because you cannot score. Use bolters to ground FMCs (especially fate weaver.)

Why can't I score?

Nurglings are swarms and as such cannot score, so unless you get great use out of the portaglyph (unlikely), or luck on the warpstorm (rolling a bunch of 12s). You have no scoring unless we play big guns, which will be tight, but honestly princes with no 3+ save and no psychic powers will be easy kills anyway.

Essentially other than the screamer star the rest of that build is pretty bad.

What will happen is either I will ground the princes, and kill them, or you will charge 5 marines, wipe them and I'll kill you with shooting the next turn.

Breng77 wrote:
Nurglings are swarms and as such cannot score

Where are you getting this?
I checked the rulebook, the codex, and both FAQs. Nowhere does it say swarms can't score.

Rulebook page 123, second column, second bullet point

"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does not count as a scoring unit:

-It is a vehicle...
-If it has the swarms special rule."

Further more following down the same column swarms also don't deny.

Oh yeah good call for some reason I didn't think to read the scoring section in that case replace those with equivalent points of plaguebearers.

How are you playing that blood angels swarm at 2000 Points? The 6 tactical squads alone are 1080 points and the 6 assault marine squads are 1260 points. The librarians add another 200 points for a grand total of 2540 points.

You also have no FnP. You'd be massively outclassed in the firepower department. At 2500 Points Tau/Eldar will eat you alive.

Tau
Buffmander - 180ish points
Ethereal
Riptide - 190
Riptide - 190
Riptide - 190
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
12 Firewarrariors
8 Pathfinders
8 Pathfinders
8 Pathfinders
3 MIssilesides
3 Missilesides
3 Missilesides

That still is a couple hundred points short of 2500 - and uses on FOC.

Yeah, so apparently today is when I am bad at math (I left a 0 out on the points for my assault squads (so 10 instead of 100.) The best I can do is still around 92 MEQ bodies.

Again though Of course I am outclassed in fire power, but that Tau list still won't kill all those marines.

People still seem to be missing the whole point....I'm not trying to fight you , I am trying to maybe get first blood, and maybe warlord, then I am trying to tie or squeak out an objective win. Mostly while running and hiding, and trying not to die.

Against that Tau list I likely will, wait for FW to try to move up onto middle objectives, engage those that do, and otherwise sit back, and take my lumps.

Everything considered though the general concept works better with Dark Angels (and soon with Vanilla Marines.)

At 2k points Dark Angels can take 120 Tactical Marines, and 2 Libbies + some special weapons.

Blood Angels Can take about 100 + upgrades and 2 Libbies. so I take say 10 lascannons. Against the Tau list shoot those at Broadsides early for first blood (or a riptide). Then stay at long range, using what LOS blockers I can, then move onto objectives Turns 4 and 5.

Okay, I see what you're trying. It might work - but at best I would say 50/50. Warlord/First blood would largely be determined by who went first. Objective placement would matter a great deal as well. Of course, we're no longer talking about a jump pack swarm either.

Correct, though I think you can do the Jump pack swarm a tactical swarm is stronger due to ranged shooting, for BA adding a few units of jumpers is pretty decent for late game mobility.

You are right though it is 50-50, which means it can compete, but it is horribly boring, not very marine like, and if you are playing a battle point tournament unlikely to place all that high.

In theory you could bring 2 libbies, 90 jump pack guys with upgrades (100 with no upgrades). And just try to out last people. The short gun range really means that such a list would be very much needing to win objectives.

How do you know when a codex is stupidly bad? When you get discussions about doing this kind of stuff to have a *chance* of winning. I haven't seen any BT threads this desperate even.

That's because they'll have a new book in a week...and have been an old book for a while.

In reality given the lack of heldrakes I've seen recently I think some other more standard BA list would be ok. The issue will be in about a week most will be done better by another dex.