I was playing a 2600 point game today. IG VS IG and Nids. This married couple was new to the store, and the wife was new to the game, so I decided to challenge them to a match, as they seemed a tad bored and the store was pretty empty. They happily agreed and we got off to a good start, until I started listing out the units I was bringing. They saw my 2 Vet squads didn't have 3 plasma guns each (due to the fact plasma's are a little hard to come by in IG unit boxes. And my LRBT was an Executioner. (I had bought them early in my 40K career when I didn't know squat about the game, and as 17 year old I'm to poor to afford another round of Leman Russ's to make them Executioners) and I wanted tory out a Collosus instead of a Bassilisk like I normally bring because they looked cool. After they, they griped and complained constantly about my army, saying how all of their units were WYSIWYG and it was annoying to play against my army. By the end of it, I had won 9-6 but I felt so defeated due to them complaining about my army...I guess in all of this, I want to ask is this normal? Should I shell out the money to get three more Leman Russ's and get those Plasma's and just buy units I want to test out? Should I be ashamed for proxying?

If its something you constantly use then you should definitely shell out for the models. Otherwise if theres something youd just really like (colossus, medusa, ect) then go for it.

As far as bits go check out ebay. Its a great resource to find a few bits. I just checked out imperial guard plasma gun and heres just a few things i found.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.Ximperial+guard+plasma+gun&_nkw=imperial+guard+plasma+gun&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Some people do not like to play against proxies, which is why it is best to clear it before you get any models out, could you clarify if you said you would be proxying stuff before you got stuff out for the game?

I do use Plasma's quite a bit...just don't like the idea of spending 5 bucks on each plasma gunner when I've lived this long without them. And I did say I was Proxying before I got my models out, and reiterated it after I set them down on the table, because people miss stuff sometimes. I was the only guy there though...so I guess they just dealt with it.

Depends on your local gaming culture.

Here in NZ we generally don't give a gak. WSYIWYG models are better but what you gonna do?

Other areas, America chiefly amongst them from what I've seen on here, seem to be a bit more anal about this sort of thing

What was proxying as a Plasma Gunner? Could you not just paint neon blue patches on it? While there are a few people who are right into their "Plasma gun must be an official GW plasma gun" stuff, the majority should be ok with "this guy with the obvious glowing blue weapon is a plasma gunner"

Well just because you have lived without them so far doesn't mean you should, since it can come off as quite rude if you want to use a specific model, but won't because you can proxy all the time.

That being said, since you made it clear up front that you were proxying and they agreed they had no reason to complain.

Perhaps they merely found your proxies confusing, could you clarify what you proxied each thing with?

Ehh. Proxies are no big deal, if you make an effort to be clear. I just played against 750 points of Tau, which consisted of:

36 Fire Warriors (basecoated Marines)
Cadre Fireblade (Broken shadowsun model)
Crisis suits (Terminators from DV kit)
Marker drones (baseless gun and missile drones)

...and it was a great game! Just don't purposely confuse your opponent. Proxying is the best!

I'd say get the models. Strangers proxying stuff reeks of "Well I just thought I'd suddenly tailor my list to best handle your army".

With people you've played before, if they normally do wysiwyg, then a proxy now and then to test stuff out is okay. Although to be honest proxying the amount of stuff you did I'd be pissed even if a friend did it. One or two units max in my opinion, after that you're just trolling.

My roommate is always broke and has almost entirely Dark Vengeance models, save a Heldrake, Abby, and some Terminators. He doesn't have the money to go out and buy new models, he pays his bills first. My fiance and I are strapped for cash at the model because of mounting bills, so I let her proxy some of her space wolves as sisters for the time being. My army on the other hand is almost entirely WYSIWYG, save one model, and Arjac is just proxying his replacement for the time being! Not everyone has the money to drop on proper models all the time, or sometimes GW doesn't even make the model you want to use. It's always up to the players on what's what, and if it's okay to use that unit or not.

I'm known in the store for always taking Plasma's. I just can't resiest them. Honestly, I would have taken less plasma's and more flamers if I tailored, because both were running horde versions of their armies. But, this was what I was Proxying in the game.

-Vet Squads had 2 actual Plasma guns and a Melta. The other had one plasma gun and two grenade launchers. I told them all special weapons in the Vet squads were Plasma's. Everything else was Lasguns and the Sarge.

-I had one Leman Russ Battle Tank be an Executioner.

-One Bassilisk as a Collosus. Everything else was WYSIWYG.

Dakamite, I do like your idea actually. If I paint the muzzles of the gun bright blue, it would be very easy to identify them.

Proxies are particularly hard on new gamers because it is just one more thing to remember so it can be irritating.

I can understand not feeling you can afford some models.
A friend of mine makes a lot of stuff for his army so when he fields it, you can tell what each model has.

Really trying to play WYSIWYG would take precedence so do try to play to that standard.
I go a step further and "color code" everything: Blue: power weapon and lascannon, Red: Ranged Weapon, Hazard Stripe: melee / physical damage, Green: Plasma, Purple: Gravity weapon, Brass/Bronze: Flamer/Melta, etc...

If I were those people however I would "mention" that I had difficulty remembering the proxies but thanks for the game...

Well in that case they agreed to play with some fairly clear proxies, the only thing I could see them griping about is not having your 3 plasmas in 1 squad and the three proxies together.

I have no problem when people proxy to try new units out, or to test a build, or because they are waiting to pick up a piece. I generally get frustrated by people that continually proxy and have multiple proxies which gets confusing.

I go through effort and money to try and be WYSIWYG and expect other to at least make an effort. Also, I like to play in tournaments and it kills me to see people proxy at the local tournament level, but I am generally a good sport about it and let it slide so long as someone say, "I have them on order..." or "I am saving up for them..." or "I'm trying this unit out." etc.


Go on a bits site and spend a couple of bucks to make your army all that much more enjoyable to play against.

Fortunately I haven't encountered it IRL yet, but I would not be able to stand it if someone was intolerant of proxies. Not everyone is made of money, ya know.

I didn't think they would have much trouble, since only the wife was new. The husband was I think a decade long veteran.

It's been my experience that people who play as a team are people you want to avoid anyway. Families, couples, I've never encountered a situation where they play fair. Part and parcel to not playing fair is that when someone DOES defeat them, they throw a fit or get incredibly standoffish. I'm not saying families or couples who play together can't be above board and good sports, (when my son is old enough to play, we certainly will be!) but I've never seen it happen.

My only problem with proxying would be poorly done ones (wrong sizes, etc), or particularly confusing ones. I'd also have a problem with people who consistently proxy the same thing over and over again.

Proxying is totally fine if the model is at least similar in size/shape. I'd also expect a certain effort in trying to convert/build/purchase an appropriate WYSIWYG model.

Hmmm. Proxies where I play are generaly quite accepted. Boltguns can be combi weapons, rhinos can be razorbacks, termies can be captains, guardsmen can be stormtroopers, etc. I find it odd that they complained so much as you say. Are you sure you ain't exagerating?

I don't mind proxies only if it is with a friend who wants to try a new build. Against someone I don't regularly play, I prefer them to use WYSIWYG as it keeps things simple.

Sadly there are also people out there who will proxy and use the confusion to their advantage.

If it is something simple like oh BTW these havocs have lascannons and not autocannons.... that is usually fine.

It is just annoying when its: that squad of marines has 2 plasma guns and a PF, that squad has a power axe and 2 flamers, etc.... (when all the marines are modeled with bolters and metlas)

Agreed, but in the OP's case I think his proxies weren't unreasonably confusing, but as we only have 1 side of the story, I don't really think we can comment much further.

Perhaps the OP could post a pic of his army and the proxied units to see how much they stand apart from the rest of the army.

OT: OP you may want to head over to P and M tutorials and find Snrub's special weapon guides for guard, you can make some pretty cheap plasma with your spare guard parts.

Largeblastmarker wrote:Hmmm. Proxies where I play are generaly quite accepted. Boltguns can be combi weapons, rhinos can be razorbacks, termies can be captains, guardsmen can be stormtroopers, etc. I find it odd that they complained so much as you say. Are you sure you ain't exagerating?

I promise you, I'm not, or it wouldn't really have bothered me to begin with. I know they need to be replaced eventually, but I'd rather get the army operational (And I'm getting into Fantasy as well, which is sucking away what little money I have faster than a vacuum). And honestly, no one has ever had a problem with it until today. It was jarring.

gossipmeng wrote:I don't mind proxies only if it is with a friend who wants to try a new build. Against someone I don't regularly play, I prefer them to use WYSIWYG as it keeps things simple.

Sadly there are also people out there who will proxy and use the confusion to their advantage.

If it is something simple like oh BTW these havocs have lascannons and not autocannons.... that is usually fine.

It is just annoying when its: that squad of marines has 2 plasma guns and a PF, that squad has a power axe and 2 flamers, etc.... (when all the marines are modeled with bolters and metlas)

I've never, ever taken advantage of what I proxy. I think it's foolish to cheat in a game of toy models. And it's always simple. Like "This entire squad are Plasma's." Or "This Yellow tank is a Executioner." I try to make it as simple as possible, because it is my fault they are are proxied.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Agreed, but in the OP's case I think his proxies weren't unreasonably confusing, but as we only have 1 side of the story, I don't really think we can comment much further.

Perhaps the OP could post a pic of his army and the proxied units to see how much they stand apart from the rest of the army.

OT: OP you may want to head over to P and M tutorials and find Snrub's special weapon guides for guard, you can make some pretty cheap plasma with your spare guard parts.

I"ll have the pics up in a moment.

DjPyro3 wrote:

Largeblastmarker wrote:Hmmm. Proxies where I play are generaly quite accepted. Boltguns can be combi weapons, rhinos can be razorbacks, termies can be captains, guardsmen can be stormtroopers, etc. I find it odd that they complained so much as you say. Are you sure you ain't exagerating?

I promise you, I'm not, or it wouldn't really have bothered me to begin with. I know they need to be replaced eventually, but I'd rather get the army operational (And I'm getting into Fantasy as well, which is sucking away what little money I have faster than a vacuum). And honestly, no one has ever had a problem with it until today. It was jarring.

sounds like they aren't very nice people then, that's all.

I'm cool with using small amounts of proxies in smaller games, but if we're at 2k points and half your army is proxies, I won't be having as much fun.

Because if you're an honest person, at least one model will get confused for something it isn't. And if you're a liar (and to be fair, at a pickup game I have no idea who you are) you could abuse the heck out of it. I've had people try it, and I know that's why some people are always leery of proxies.

However, the occasional "I'm proxying this because this unit has terrible rules but I always wanted to try it." is cool, as is "I want to try this in a game before I buy it.

Also, if you need plasma guns, GW sells them direct for cheaper than bitz sites do (shocking, I know) just buy a few packs of them there. Your opponents will thank you for it

These are the general poses of my infantry men. If you want both squads, I can get them out, but I'd rather just pull out 6 men than 20. I also apologize for the weird lighting on those pics...no idea why my phone did that. But are those special weapons to hard to tell apart from the las?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm cool with using small amounts of proxies in smaller games, but if we're at 2k points and half your army is proxies, I won't be having as much fun.

Because if you're an honest person, at least one model will get confused for something it isn't. And if you're a liar (and to be fair, at a pickup game I have no idea who you are) you could abuse the heck out of it. I've had people try it, and I know that's why some people are always leery of proxies.

However, the occasional "I'm proxying this because this unit has terrible rules but I always wanted to try it." is cool, as is "I want to try this in a game before I buy it.

Also, if you need plasma guns, GW sells them direct for cheaper than bitz sites do (shocking, I know) just buy a few packs of them there. Your opponents will thank you for it

GW sells bitz directly? I had no idea! And pretty cheap to. Guess I really don't have any excuse to get those Plasma's on my Vet's. Thanks for pointing that out.

I don't really see anything with the above, it seems based off what we have been told they were just being whiny.

It's not normal in NZ. As Dakkamite said, we really don't care, even at tournaments. I've played against a Necron army comprised of Lego battle droids at a tourney, and neither me or his other opponents batted an eyelid.

That said, it does depend on each individual opponent you play, and it's worth clarifying how much they care about WYSIWYG before you start. But using Russes as other Russes and a Basilisk as a Colossus shouldn't really be a big deal if explained. The Vets might be slightly more complex, but as long as the models are somehow differentiated it's not an issue in my book.

Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

Makumba wrote:
Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

This sounds like you think she must have been unintelligent or something. He obviously explained to them.And I think a husband and wife have better things to talk about than that kid who was using proxy models.

Oh yes.... Just out of curiosity OP, what general region of the US were you playing in?

I myself have never played a game, been mostly buying and painting the models, but I know it would be a big turn-off if one of my first games was against someone who was using proxies. In my opinion you should be trying to make it as simple, and helpful on the new player as possible. When you start adding all your proxies it looks like an attempt to be more competitive than necessary toward a new player.

Again, just my opinion but I can see her frustration, especially considering you were the only one in the store.

I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

I've had a guy who kept using an empty blister pack, and kept saying it was a second heldrake. I told him get a flying base at least, or drop the second drake. He refused so I didn't play him. I don't really mind if it's at least got a proper base or makes sense of it and we clearly know what it does.

Yeah, I don't mind proxies as long as it looks a tiny bit like whatever you are proxying.

Those plasma gunners? Are they IG but carrying the wrong gun? Perfect, let's play. The Leman Russ has the wrong turret? Screw it, it's still a LR.

What I truly dislike is what dreamakuma said: Cans as drop pods.

That's just stretching your luck

I already played against cardboard boxes as rhinos, transformer toys as dreadknights and the best and takes-the-cake here, a legion of lego minis as Necron Warriors.

I guess I'm pretty open minded, if it is the first time someone is testing a unit, but I'll get cranky if he'll come back for a third+ try with the same box of mints rhino.

In my opinion, the rules are there, but they aren't really balanced. So if we chuck the "wanting to win" part out of the equation, we're left with enjoying the game for what it is - we're playing this game for its story and for the cool, sweet looking miniatures. If you take that away too - the game starts to look like a slowed version of chess or a pirated copy of starcraft 1 with bad translation and third-party badly modded sprites.

I really prefer to play against painted, completely WYSIWYG armies; the visual aspect of the game is just important to me, and if we just cared about what was cheapest we could as well play with bottle caps and cardboard boxes.

That being said, your proxies seem rather reasonable, few wrong guns basically. And you told them you were using them, and they still agreed to play, so constant whining about it seems unreasonable.

But if you like plasma, get these. Not terribly expensive. As for tanks, I'd recommend magnetising the guns, so you can swap between the weapons. Current LR kits at least come with plenty of extra guns.

I've played with some horrific proxies in private games testing different armies/builds with a buddy of mine, so nothing really bothers me as long as I can tell model A from model B and model B from model C.

...and I'll toss my soda can mycetic spore pods in the recycling bin when GW makes some actual models for them

DjPyro3 wrote:
I do use Plasma's quite a bit...just don't like the idea of spending 5 bucks on each plasma gunner when I've lived this long without them.

Wow. I'm totally fine with proxies and all that other stuff but if you told me this, I'd be a bit pissed on the inside. You're basically saying you don't want to pay for the right models to play the game. I can understand temporary proxying or playtesting but to refuse to buy, convert, or do SOMETHING to represent a PERMANENT model you'll be using for years?

There shouldn't be a problem with proxying or WYSIWYG as long as it's obvious. If you have no plasma in your models but your army is filled with plasma, as long as you make it easy on your opponent to remember, it should be fine. For example, painting 3 of the lasguns blue to represent plasma guns. Or saying "all Leman Russ are Executioners". But if you mix and match and the opponent has to keep track of dozens of individual, INVISIBLE, important game-changing wargear that you failed to and, even worse, REFUSE to model? That's a lame move.

If playing a n00b would it really hurt playing WYSIWYG, just to make life easier for them.

I'm thinking about starting playing at the moment as I've only just got back into the painting side and there are so many rules it does seem it is going to be hard to pick it all up. As somebody previously said, there will be enough to have to remember without models not actually being what they are.

For any other player with some experience the proxies seem reasonable though. The situation shouldn't have been an issue if you discussed it though so fault on both parts.

I do everything I can to field WYSIWYG armies. If i want a particular piece of wargear I will try to track it down or do my best to convert. Why do i do this? Out of respect for my opponent.

If i'm playing a game, and my boltguns are really boltguns, except these 3 boltguns those are grav guns, and that boltgun over there is a plasmagun, and that last guy holding a boltgun? No, he's a sarge with a power axe and a combat shield. Now, even if your opponent is sheldon cooper, you're just added more complexity to an already complex game by making them mentally keep up with your 'counts-as' army. If you win that game, it's not necessarily because you outplayed your opponent but rather made their head swim with confusing proxies.

The game is already expensive - we pay $40 for a box of 10 plastic dudes (if we're lucky! many boxes are $33 for 5!). Using price as an excuse not to have accurately represented models is bunk. In a friendly game, telling your opponent beforehand you want to try out a unit by counting it as something different, is FINE. That's how we determine what we want to add next to our army. What isn't fine, is saying "well i can count this rhino as a whirlwind, so why should I ever buy the whirlwind?" and never getting the real model even though you repeatedly use it and enjoy its effect on the game.

In short, do as others have suggested and update your army with a few extra bits. You can pop off the turret of the tank with a little elbow grease and magnetize the weapon options, or just magnetize the NEXT one you buy. For everything else, just field it as what it is and try playing that way. If you only have lasguns on your veterans, then play them as lasguns. if your LR is a battle cannon, then use the battle cannon. If winning becomes difficult for you after doing this, relish the challenge and the chance to become a better player. And you'll get excited when you start converting and adding bits to your army, i think. You'll also hear less harumphing from your opponents.

 MaCa wrote:
I already played against cardboard boxes as rhinos, transformer toys as dreadknights and the best and takes-the-cake here, a legion of lego minis as Necron Warriors.

I guess I'm pretty open minded, if it is the first time someone is testing a unit, but I'll get cranky if he'll come back for a third+ try with the same box of mints rhino.

In my opinion, the rules are there, but they aren't really balanced. So if we chuck the "wanting to win" part out of the equation, we're left with enjoying the game for what it is - we're playing this game for its story and for the cool, sweet looking miniatures. If you take that away too - the game starts to look like a slowed version of chess or a pirated copy of starcraft 1 with bad translation and third-party badly modded sprites.

To be honest, I love playing again someone whose done a complete lego force. It's both funny and creative if you can make em look right.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:


This sounds like you think she must have been unintelligent or something. He obviously explained to them.And I think a husband and wife have better things to talk about than that kid who was using proxy models.

Oh yes.... Just out of curiosity OP, what general region of the US were you playing in?

This has nothing to do with explaining . He can test stuff he wants to test other way without buying the models and making the game for others unfun. And if he likes to spam plasma , as he says himself , then this doesn't make sense at all. He likes to play with certain units or weapons , but doesn't want to buy the proper gear. It is not like plasma guns are impossible to get. He also says he is a veteran too . Puting a proxy army to play against new people out of which one still is learning the game is a stupid thing to do.

It was nicely mentioned some easy conversions from fellow Dakkanaughts (Dakkaknights, Dakkites?).
See link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/467370.page
I REALLY like the clever use of bits.
After seeing this, there is no reason to not fully load up your IG.

Just do not settle for proxy, it provides all kinds of excuses for not finishing your army.

Now I just have to figure out how to keep things going with my friend who insists on playing his unpainted but complete Squat army.

Proxies are particularly hard on new gamers because it is just one more thing to remember so it can be irritating.

Exactly. Add to that the fact that a 2600 point game is a huge game for beginners and they probably just felt like it was too much to keep track of. Like others have said, I generally don't mind it as long as we're not dealing with half your army being something else. IN the case of a big unit (like x tank is actually some other tank) I usually just ask my opponent if he minds if I put a note on the table next to the unit that actually says "I'm really something else". That's the approach I take when I proxy things (which is rare) and I've never had an issue.

I like the NZ way of thinking. Lego dudes in tourneys? Quite cool, indeed!

Well, in my scene (quite small and home-y, as there isn't a FLGS dedicated to wargames) we use everything in our disposal to proxy. I've used 2L Coke bottles as Wraithknights (after comparing one's base to a wraithguard).

Basically, we try new stuff with proxies. (starting new SM this week. I don't have any of the flyers models, so my friend's Valkyries will do as Ravens!) Only my friend's IG is quite accurate in what they do. My CSM and some DV DAs do a lot of marine work, though Ah... you'd laugh at what we use as Tyranids or even scenario (wallets as ruins, paper ADL and stuff)

Other brazilian areas are much more WISIWYG, as they're veterans... I started playing only in november

An empty package as a heldrake? Hmm. I guess this means next game aginst him you have the right to run orange peels as troops, commanded by Captain 'wad o' newspaper' and his elite Bottlecap Guard.

Then when least expected, Sergeant Marlboro and the Cigarette Butt Devils will deepstrike into the heart of the enemy! It's foolproof. And affordable.

proxies are all cool in my opinion. sorry you got griped at OP by them couple. i believe everyone who doesnt have an exorbitant amount of $ to spend has to proxy at one point.

I usually try to stay wysiwyg, but occasionally I will join my veterans onto my 5 man combat squad and proxy them as a tactical squad. 5 are normal marines whilst the other 5 are robed they keep the same weapons as 2 have bolters, the vs becomes a tactical vs, the missile launcher stays as it is but the plasma pistol becomes a plasma gun. That's the extent of my proxying (until I get round to buying the new tactical squad anyway). My friend who has some chaos does quite a bit of proxying which I don't mind he does things like a terminator lord counting as typhus or cultists being plague zombies.

dreamakuma wrote:I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

You know that for a long time, there were no models for drop pods so GW encouraged people to use things like plastic cups?

Makumba wrote:Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

Your contempt for people who can't afford more models (especially ones they may find that they don't want to use) at the moment is the offensive thing here.

I honestly wouldn't care if you brought rainbow paint splattered plastic army men toys to the table as long as you made it clear what is what. Maybe I'm just laidback and therefore evil, but there are more important things than WYSIWYG. Like planning out looted Heirophants.

 Talore wrote:

dreamakuma wrote:I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

You know that for a long time, there were no models for drop pods so GW encouraged people to use things like plastic cups?

Makumba wrote:Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

Your contempt for people who can't afford more models (especially ones they may find that they don't want to use) at the moment is the offensive thing here.

Plastic drop pods have been around for six years or so If I remember right. It's not like the stat line is there and no model at all exists or it just came out. It's been around a bit. People can catch up with the times and buy one instead of having 5 spray paint cans sitting on a table so he can drop pod assault. Heck there's a tutorial to craft them with paper that at least shows an effort.

Way more fun to play against a well painted, based and correctly equipped army then it is to play against a bunch of gray models that may or may not have the right weapons attached. I won't agree with opinion that it's "offensive", but I do think at some point, if you can't make the effort to bring your armies up to speed, you are showing a bit of disrespect to your opponents.

Don't be the guy that brings potato chips to a pot luck. Put a little effort into your hobby.

I once played against someone who wanted to field a "proxy army" of Imperial Guard using the Leman Russ heavy build...he was using toy cars and stuff for his Leman Russ Tanks...I told him to remake his list. It's one thing to have a ton of infantry and not all of their weapons match, especially for Guard...but using something that doesn't even resemble what it's supposed to be is another thing entirely.

I would probably have been fine with what you were doing.

I believe people should be able to proxy, however, its the other guy's duty to mock and ridicule you on account of the proxy whenever possible (in good fun of course). The same goes for unpainted or speed painted armies. We all have to do our parts to keep the field as interesting and representative as possible.

I make things clear ahead of.time that I'm using proxies and if they don't like it they can find another game

I tend to use proxies in my army. Mostly due to edition changes. For example, Termagants used to have to buy a gun. To keep them cheap I gave them all Spinefists. Now they come with Fleshborers standard but I no longer have the bits (or the patience) to go through and change all of them.

However, when it comes to upgrades, my units are run identical. Every squad of Gants is decked out the same. Every Tervigon has the same load-out except psychic powers (because I roll trice on Bio with all of them). Every squad of Eldar Guardians have the same weapon platform. Etc.

 namiel wrote:
I make things clear ahead of.time that I'm using proxies and if they don't like it they can find another game

Perfect solution. Both players will be better off not playing each other.

 Happyjew wrote:
I tend to use proxies in my army. Mostly due to edition changes. For example, Termagants used to have to buy a gun. To keep them cheap I gave them all Spinefists. Now they come with Fleshborers standard but I no longer have the bits (or the patience) to go through and change all of them.

However, when it comes to upgrades, my units are run identical. Every squad of Gants is decked out the same. Every Tervigon has the same load-out except psychic powers (because I roll trice on Bio with all of them). Every squad of Eldar Guardians have the same weapon platform. Etc.

I agree with the above. Been playing since 3rd edition and with every edition change the idea of having to change all of my models or buying completely new armies is just not an option. So I run with what I have, WYSIWYG be damned. My basic Chaplin model represents my Chaplin with a Storm Shield and Burning Blade now because I am not going to break the model down to modify with a sword and a shield, considering I don't really want to run him that way every game, nor am I going to buy a new Chaplin model to modify with every load out possible. I could magnetize things but that would make an already expensive and time consuming hobby more time consuming and expensive. I play this for the fun of throwing dice around with friends, refuse to do tournaments.

If you're trying something new, sure. If its part of your regular force... pay the few dollars. Though it looks like you sorted this out Enjoy

The only models you "need" to play the game are the ones that you and your opponent decide on. Whether this is 100% GW fully painted wizywyg models, third party models, a mixed handful of all the minis you have, green plastic army men or paper chits. The only thing that is required is that you and your opponent reach a happy consensus. The idea that their is some ethical, moral or legal requirement to play with the official models once you've purchased the rules is laughable.

However, when playing with strangers I feel it's important to put your best foot forward and make your modeling as clear as possible. If this means limiting your proxies to just a few things (ie this Big Mek is actually a Weirdboy, or all flamethrowers in the army are actually meltaguns) you should just bite the bullet and make your list as your units are modeled. This is really just common courtesy, facilitating gameplay and the golden rule of D.B.A.D.

I greatly prefer battles between painted (and most models don't even have to be detailed very well at all to look passably nice massed together on the tabletop), mostly-WYSIWYG armies. I make an exception for characters. I love seeing people's crazy, kit-bashed characters and (a la Warhammer Fantasy's lax rules about character modelling) I don't care if a Chaos Lord actually has that sword he's wielding or if he's using a powerfist instead. Rule of cool over WYSIWYG in that case.

There are other cases I'll make exceptions for. My brother plays CSM and 'nids and though his CSM are pretty much WYSIWYG (aside from a couple Champions and his now-armless terminators [poor blokes]) he absolutely hates the way fleshborers look on Termagants, so he has -all- termagants modeled with devourers, but using them as Fleshborers. Something army-wide, uniform, and easy to remember like that is a-ok. Plus I think fleshborers look dumb, too.

When playing with my brother or a friend more list-testing proxies tend to get used, but I'd never do that in a pick up game. I do completely understand how time-consuming painting up an entire army can be--and that someone might want to play a few games in between the bouts of ungodly sums of painting time--so I'm more than willing to accept grey/primed models. But keeping them WYSIWYG just saves time and headache, especially at higher point games.

I dont tend to have any issues with proxies as long as the opponents army isnt extremely technical and confusing in regards to wargear. The odd weapon swap here and there is fine. I find all proxy armies that dont even attempt to be representative difficult to play against, a uniform lego army is fine, an army of cardboard boxes and soda bottles is not.

As someone very used to gaming on a budget, I try to convert and kitbash the hell out of everything. Usually if I have an abundance of one bit I can convert them to be what I need (eg one time i did unneeded IG flamers into shotguns). I have never found a way around the torso/legs dilemma though...

Below is my Csm army. its getting close to the 15k points is fully magnetized for pretty much every wysiwyg combination it also cost me about $1 a point to get it all done nicely.


if you dont have a boat load of spare cash. then proxy away just make what you have clear and obvious and there really shouldnt be any problems. i mean short on cash all good but laziness isnt fair for models that you use every game over a very long time. those that decide to use a coke bottle for a drop pod for a few games to try them out go to town The only time id have a problem with it was if you literally couldnt be bothered/ used totally innapropriate things.

i honestly think that the people you encountered were having a bit of a sook, did they start complaining at the begining, or later?

ps i love the idea of lego men for necrons pull them apart when killed and put them back together if they reanimate

I proxie my devourer gaunts all the time simply due to the fact that i've already had to paint so many gaunts. Everyone does it at some point, dont worry about it your proxies were minor anyway. I'd play against someone with your proxies any day of the week.

Though there is a limit. When you start proxying everything on the table (These Dire Avengers are actually Howling Banshees, the Howling Banshees are Fire Dragons, the Fire Dragons are Guardians, the Guardians are Wraithguard and the Wraithguard are Wraithlords) there is a bit of an issue.

Table wrote:

 namiel wrote:
I make things clear ahead of.time that I'm using proxies and if they don't like it they can find another game

Perfect solution. Both players will be better off not playing each other.

if its a friendly pickup game then it shouldnt matter too much. I understand when in the tournment scene but if I am going to a tournment then i know ahead of time what i am bringing and prepare accordingly

I hate proxying with a deep burning passion, it is my belife if that you take the time to collect, build and maintain whatever army you play you should take the time to at least use the correct models.

I hate proxying with a deep burning passion, it is my belief if that you take the time to collect, build and maintain whatever army you play you should take the time to at least use the correct models.

This attitude absolutely boggles my mind. I mean, if I'm showing up week in and week out and telling you that my deodorant stick is my Punisher/Razorback/Flyrant, and my match-sticks are actually a Kroot squad, then fine. That's rediculous.

On the other hand (and keeping in mind I'm not talking about a tournament or a competition here - just friendly games), if I have only x amount of dollars, and I'm stuck between buying unit y OR unit z, and the rest of my army is decently wysiwyg, you would seriously have an issue with a few proxy games for me to decide which to buy? If so, you are taking this WAY too seriously.

TL;DR:

Not all proxy situations are created equal and a blanket rule like that seems oddly serious for a game where a lot of adults regularly push around toys ...

The hate towards proxies in this thread isn't directed towards the guy who is testing out a unit or 2. I'd say the main issue is when it becomes hard to differentiate between multiple units and/or the player using the proxies cannot be bothered to buy the actual model after they have concluded their test.

It is probably best to not use proxies when playing against a new opponent out of courtesy. In larger games it can be hard to keep track of wargear that is WYSIWYG when you standing 3 feet away from a squad of little 28mm figures - proxies just further complicate the matter.

It is probably best to not use proxies when playing against a new opponent out of courtesy

That's certainly a fair statement. Beginners have enough on their plate keeping their own stuff straight, let alone remembering that those Orks with choppas are actually a Deathwing Command squad with Apothecary. lol

EDIT:

The hate towards proxies in this thread isn't directed towards the guy who is testing out a unit or 2. I'd say the main issue is when it becomes hard to differentiate between multiple units and/or the player using the proxies cannot be bothered to buy the actual model after they have concluded their test.

Yeah, like I said earlier, I totally get the hate when someone's showing up with a xeroxed codex and chess pieces every week. lol It's just that some have made blanket statements that imply they will never accept it at all under any circumstances.

 Trondheim wrote:
I hate proxying with a deep burning passion, it is my belife if that you take the time to collect, build and maintain whatever army you play you should take the time to at least use the correct models.

Some of us don't have the time and/or money to constantly update our models to fit new editions and new rules.

As I said before, I use proxies. I set my army down and look at my opponent and tell him - all the Termagants are basic, no upgrades. Both Tervigons have the same load-out, only difference is possibly psychic powers (though when you only roll 1-3 you tend to get the same powers). Suddenly there is no worry over wait does this unit have X or does that unit have X? Either they both have X or neither has X.

It's the same with my Eldar Guardians. I run them exactly the same. Sure it means using proxies but guess what, my opponent doesn't have to worry about remembering which unit has the Bright Lance platform and which has the Scatter Laser platform.

I feel as though, as a few people have already said before me, that there's a bit of a divide on why you proxy in the first place. Everyone who seems to have a problem with it is saying that it is:
- Confusing
- Cheap (As in, why don't you just make your army WYSIWYG)

Being completely dirt poor myself, I'm inclined to ask what the issue is with proxying if it's in a setting where it's not going to be a big deal. That is to say, a pickup game, or with models that are easy to identify as to what they are. Not everyone can afford a completely new armored regiment if they failed to magnetize/make the most competitive choices on the first set.

I also notice that there is something to be said about Proxying vs. 'Counts-as'. Proxying usually implies that it's only for a game or two. As people have said, it's best implemented when "I've got the set ordered" or "Just saving up to get the real one". Counts-as is more of a long term representation, like the guy in the NZ tournament using lego battle droids. My personal opinion is that if you're proxying, keep it to a minimum, especially if it's really out there (these orks are space marine devastators), and if you're using counts-as models, and planning to continue using them that way for a long time, make it clear that they're meant to be something else.

Lastly, the general blanket hatred against proxying and people not using perfect WYSIWYG, honestly comes across as pretty elitist. A lot of us can't afford the numerous models to have subs for every strategic army combination, and basically telling us to not bother playing for fear of pissing someone off is ridiculous.

Cheers

To be honest, i dont mind people using a proxy to some degree.

If they want to test out a new model/unit before sinking £ and then alot of painting hours into it, then thats fine with me.
Nothing worse than buying a unit, spending a week painting it and it turns out its either really bad, or does not fit with your army.

If however its a regular person who keeps proxy'ing the same units time and time again, just get the units sorted.



The OP says money is a bit of an issue, yet he is now getting into WHFB aswell.
Why not sink that money into the guard so its 100% sorted before moving on to something else?

Not sure if its my OCD, but i couldn't pick up another project while leaving one nearly 100% complete

 Jackal wrote:
To be honest, i dont mind people using a proxy to some degree.

If they want to test out a new model/unit before sinking £ and then alot of painting hours into it, then thats fine with me.
Nothing worse than buying a unit, spending a week painting it and it turns out its either really bad, or does not fit with your army.

If however its a regular person who keeps proxy'ing the same units, just get the units sorted.

I agree with all of Jackal's points.

Proxies are for testing out a model on a short term basis, period. You wanna play with a model for a couple of weeks to see how the unit works? Great, no problem. After that, pony up the cash to buy the unit, or I won't play games with you where you want to use that unit again.

On the one hand, we have proxy's described as "offensive", while on the other hand, we have people who expect to play against a well painted and properly equipped army described as "elitist"

I'll just offer this. Imagine if you went to see Star Wars, but Luke's light saber was a stick, Chewbacca was a small barking beagle, R2D2 is a cola can with a light bulb, and it's being shown in black and white. If that doesn't bother you, great, more power to you. I might sit through it, especially if I'm with friends, but I definitely enjoy it more when I'm not having to try to remember what's what.

anchorbine wrote:

I'll just offer this. Imagine if you went to see Star Wars, but Luke's light saber was a stick, Chewbacca was a small barking beagle, R2D2 is a cola can with a light bulb, and it's being shown in black and white

Still better than the prequels!

With people you don't know and aren't friends with I would expect it. Not everyone likes playing proxy I mean, i personally wouldn't enjoy proxy battles but if its with someone i know and am friends with I'm more willing to let them try out different setups and such as opposed to a random person.

I think the fundemental difference is who your playing against and what the purpose of the game is.

If your playing against people you know in a pick up game go ahead proxy plastic cups.

If your playing people who you just met who you have no idea how well they play its probably best to not proxy and play what you have.

anchorbine wrote:
On the one hand, we have proxy's described as "offensive", while on the other hand, we have people who expect to play against a well painted and properly equipped army described as "elitist"

Anchorbine, I think you may have misunderstood my point, or I failed to word it well, in which case I apologize.

My point was that not everyone can afford to go out and buy components to make there armies perfectly WYSIWYG. WH40k is an expensive, time-consuming hobby and I'm not going to exclude someone or refuse to play with them because they can't pour all their time and money into the game. That being said, I completely agree that you playing against a well-painted and equipped army is much, much better. Honestly, I get pretty tired of seeing half-painted armies all the time, where the player doesn't seem to care about the state of their troops. I only find it elitist when players start acting like those of us who can't afford every troop choice are not even worth playing with, much less playing the game at all.

 SweaterKittens wrote:
I only find it elitist when players start acting like those of us who can't afford every troop choice are not even worth playing with, much less playing the game at all.

This. Blanket-banning non-WYSIWYG will cut a lot of younger (or limited spare funds) players out, because they simply can't expand fast enough. If they couldn't get games, they'd likely abandon the hobby altogether, and that just seems destructive to 40k as a whole.

I used to run a group at my high school where the younger guys would be proxying all sorts of models, borrowing from us older guys because we had models to spare. My Rhinos must have had a minor identity crisis- one week they were Predators, the next they were Trukks, then they were Devilfish, etc... We didn't mind because they were dead keen to play and learn, and were buying models whenever they could. All I told them was to bring a clear list, and tell the opponent what everything was. If we'd told them to feth off, that may well have been the last the hobby would have seen of them.

My first game with the WD SoB dex, I used Ork Boyz with yellow tunics and sluggas/choppas as DCAs, Ork Boyz with blue tunics and shootas as Crusaders, and I forget what I used as Uriah....

After that game, where they took out a large unit of Honor Guard and accompanying Chapter Master in one round of melee, I went and ordered the proper models. I also got some 3rd party models from Reaper Minis with heavy armor, swords and shields to replace the Crusaders, and a cowgirl model with a pistol and shotgun to use as Uriah (she now has had her weapons replaced with a bolt pistol and shotgun, with a chainsword slung across her back). Later I ended up converting a WHFB Chaos Sorcerer model to use as a counts-as Uriah, for reasons I'm not going to get into here.

As for painting, well, I generally don't like doing the same thing over and over again. I prefer doing new things, like figuring out a nifty conversion or kitbash I haven't done before. Painting a whole army . . . is not fun for me, and I don't enjoy painting models as much as I do building them in the first place.

My favorite moment in a game with a friend:

He was playing Orks and was proud of his newly primed Looted tank.

At one point he moved the tank.

I asked how far: it was too much.

He said "I go fasta red of course!".

I pointed at his tank.

He closed his mouth, got out a brush, popped open some red paint and smeared some over a hatch.

I said "carry-on".

Some things you just should not proxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anchorbine wrote:
On the one hand, we have proxy's described as "offensive", while on the other hand, we have people who expect to play against a well painted and properly equipped army described as "elitist"
I'll just offer this. Imagine if you went to see Star Wars, but Luke's light saber was a stick, Chewbacca was a small barking beagle, R2D2 is a cola can with a light bulb, and it's being shown in black and white. If that doesn't bother you, great, more power to you. I might sit through it, especially if I'm with friends, but I definitely enjoy it more when I'm not having to try to remember what's what.

I would settle for the middle-ground version: Space Balls.
This is the point of having something good to look at, I can settle for the standard laid out by chess: it needs to look like the piece and get it at least primed.
It is about imagining the battle, not trying to imagine what the pieces "should" look like as well.

For those crying poor:
Got a friend right now ordering used miniatures from all over.
He is stripping paint off of every single one of them.
Even incomplete models to strip down for parts.
Ireland is a favored place, shipping seems to be cheaper from there to Canada than for us across Canada.
Anything he cannot easily get, he makes out of plasticard.
He will have a marine force of about 3000 points if it goes as planned (from what I have heard he is buying things at) ~$250.
Tactical squads at about $8, Rhinos as little as $3 (badly assembled and painted).
There is a fair bit of effort but he is getting what he wants and may shame us all for not being done with our armies.
He has already planned his painting process, he has become hard core to 40k.

with the exception of games between close friends where a squad or a single model is proxied for the sake of experimentation, i think it's insulting to the player that had worked hard, bought the parts, put them together, and painted them well when you put a clump of clay on the table and claim it to be whatever the hell is OP in your codex and perfectly matches to destroy my army composition.

To anyone that says they don't have the money for this game... that's not an excuse. This isn't crack. No one is forcing you to play this game. Work a little over-time, buy that squad you wanted, put it together, paint it, field it.

be proud of your work and accept no substitutes.

I do a small bit of proxying.

When I built my DE I really thought I wanted some of the weapon upgrades on my warriors. Many (many..) games later, I run them with the default weapon... however they are painted and it would be a complete pain to try and swap things out.

So, I'm a bit like HappyJew here and point out that "those are all basic DE warriors with the splinter rifles. Every DE warrior on the table has a splinter rifle".

Then again, when I have multiples of a unit, like Raiders, then usually ALL of them are kitted out the same way. It's a heck of a lot easier on me to keep track of what's going on... let alone my opponent. The only exception here are my Reavers... Because the weapons are underneath (and tiny) I ended up painting the bikes with special weapons with a different scheme so I can easily keep track.

I also recently proxied some wracks through a few games where one had a liquifier. It wasn't modeled on the unit so I put a token next to it so my opponent knew exactly which model had it. That said, yesterday I went ahead and mounted the liquifier on it. Wasn't happy about jacking the paint job, but I feel better about it. When I complete a few more projects I'll likely pick up another box of warriors so that I can retire the ones with the canons and DLs.


I think it's okay in a few circumstances. But please don't go crazy. In the OP I'd say the Vet squads need to have the proper guns placed on them. Otherwise it's too easy to screw up. As far as the vehicles, I'd say proxying them is fine. Unless you have multiple nearly identical models and you are calling them very different things.

 Talizvar wrote:
For those crying poor:
Got a friend right now ordering used miniatures from all over.
He is stripping paint off of every single one of them.
Even incomplete models to strip down for parts.
Ireland is a favored place, shipping seems to be cheaper from there to Canada than for us across Canada.
Anything he cannot easily get, he makes out of plasticard.
He will have a marine force of about 3000 points if it goes as planned (from what I have heard he is buying things at) ~$250.
Tactical squads at about $8, Rhinos as little as $3 (badly assembled and painted).
There is a fair bit of effort but he is getting what he wants and may shame us all for not being done with our armies.
He has already planned his painting process, he has become hard core to 40k.

I'm glad that he has $250 to spend. I'm glad that he is talented enough and able-bodied enough to be able to make models out of plasticard. I'm glad that he is able to put in the time and effort to get his army assembled and painted quickly for the disposable income that he has.

Now recognize that not everyone has that much talent, or money, or time, or physical ability. One subjective example doesn't mean anything. More power to your friend that he is able to accomplish this, though.

I prefer to play games where everything is painted, and everything is WYSIWYG, simply because it looks a great deal better than unpainted space marines that are really firewarriors with terminators that are really crisis suits and so forth.

That said, and i don't think may would disagree, proxies are totally fine by me in casual games, even if they require the occassional 'what were your silver helms again?' from time to time.

Last weekend, i wanted to try out the new Devestator Centurions, since i hadn't quite decided what i should build them as yet, or even opened the box (or bought it for that matter) i took the unit that i thought best represented them but that belonged to a different army, (old) Broadsides. no-one batted an eyelid (except the local TFG) 'oh thats an illegal army you 'have' to have a WYSIWYG army'...
GET OUT! is what we say to that attitude, because as long as both parties agree, then anything goes. hell i played against an IG player who recently started and since he likes models, all he had to represent his Leman Russ tanks was an assortment of Panzer III and IV's

DjPyro3 wrote:(Sad sob story)... Should I be ashamed for proxying?

Yes

Aleph-Sama wrote:... Not everyone has the money to drop on proper models all the time, or sometimes GW doesn't even make the model you want to use. ...

You know, I feel very minimally bad for the cost of the game. That said, if you bought enough models to play a game using proxies, then you have enough models to play a game without proxies. GW doesn't make the model you want - well, that's what conversions are for.

But some of this is just internet talk. Reality is that I regularly play against a guy who uses proxies. I don't like it. I don't like the idea that I've put time and effort into making the game visually satisfying, while he makes no effort at all. Does it mean I refuse to play him? No. Does it mean I (and others in my gaming group) don't give him crap for it? No, we make fun of him all the time. But while we're willing to make fun of him, we're not willing to exclude him, or tell him how to spend his money.

anchorbine wrote:Way more fun to play against a well painted, based and correctly equipped army then it is to play against a bunch of gray models that may or may not have the right weapons attached. I won't agree with opinion that it's "offensive", but I do think at some point, if you can't make the effort to bring your armies up to speed, you are showing a bit of disrespect to your opponents.

Yup, it's like that. This is an expensive hobby for all involved. Put some effort in.

 Talore wrote:
I'm glad that he has $250 to spend. <snip> I'm glad that he is able to put in the time and effort to get his army assembled and painted quickly for the disposable income that he has.

I identified that he was spending some $8 or less at a time for models, there is no reason someone cannot stretch the short time frame he set for himself.

I'm glad that he is talented enough and able-bodied enough to be able to make models out of plasticard.<snip >Now recognize that not everyone has that much talent, or money, or time, or physical ability.

His talent is hard-won, he researched, he practiced, it was through brute force learning and he loves what he does.
Being able bodied enough is a whole different thing that is why I specifically stated (rather callously I do admit) "crying poor".

One subjective example doesn't mean anything.

It does mean something, you look around and see cost effective means of getting what you want for your hobbies all it takes is the effort.
There is nothing special about the conditions or methods of learning applied other than the will to do it.

More power to your friend that he is able to accomplish this, though.

I am glad you can recognize the work, I was inspired as he showed me all the stages of parts: he had all the models apart and the little matching bits in separate containers.
They were all like new models, he was almost giggling where he had enough parts for some 40 odd normal marines all looking like a cut off the sprue condition.

If it's a game with new players, you should try to only play WYSIWYG. It's hard enough for them to play let alone play against models that aren't really there.

The other problem is that it can easily be taken as list tailoring. It usually goes like this,

"Hey what army do you play?"
"IG"
"Oh ok, well all my flamers are plasma guns, and all of my power weapons are power fists, and these unrelated Warmachine minis at the bottom of my case are Grav Centurions"

You see why people have a problem with it?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

The other problem is that it can easily be taken as list tailoring. It usually goes like this,

"Hey what army do you play?"
"IG"
"Oh ok, well all my flamers are plasma guns, and all of my power weapons are power fists, and these unrelated Warmachine minis at the bottom of my case are Grav Centurions"

this happened a lot at my LFGS ... by the same people, over and over again.

I

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Spoiler:

If it's a game with new players, you should try to only play WYSIWYG. It's hard enough for them to play let alone play against models that aren't really there.
The other problem is that it can easily be taken as list tailoring. It usually goes like this,
"Hey what army do you play?"
"IG"
"Oh ok, well all my flamers are plasma guns, and all of my power weapons are power fists, and these unrelated Warmachine minis at the bottom of my case are Grav Centurions"
You see why people have a problem with it?

Really explains why certain people would make a point to proxie...
It also shows when I ask for their army list why they get all weird.

And this is why when I play a pick-up game I ask for points. Not army.

Ahhhhhh, geeks and nerds (after all we are all geeks and nerds) telling other people how to play the game.

Wonderfull. Instead of jocks in high school now we have jocks in a plastic toy soldiers game telling others how it should be done. What's next? Underwear going to be pulled over our heads if someone proxies?

In a friendly game, as far as I'm concerned, proxy what you like.

In a tournament, you really need your stuff to be WYSIWYG. Alternatively, if it's a counts-as army (sometimes one of the only ways to use beloved old models), make sure it's pretty obvious what counts as what AND hand out a cheat-sheet to your opponent letting them know precisely what counts as what.

In Afganistan myself and a couple buddies Proxied EVERYTHING1

We used Cola cans for dreads, spent shells for Orks, unspent rounds for marines, rocks..sticks, twigs for what ever, MRE flat boxes became buildings (with some tape), Radio batteries were rhinos, and then we had to remember the rules from memory, now that's Proxying, (Its amazed how bored you get on a OP when its not your watch)

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
In Afganistan myself and a couple buddies Proxied EVERYTHING1

We used Cola cans for dreads, spent shells for Orks, unspent rounds for marines, rocks..sticks, twigs for what ever, MRE flat boxes became buildings (with some tape), Radio batteries were rhinos, and then we had to remember the rules from memory, now that's Proxying, (Its amazed how bored you get on a OP when its not your watch)

sounds like too much work

i'd woulda just used rocks

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
In Afganistan myself and a couple buddies Proxied EVERYTHING1
We used Cola cans for dreads, spent shells for Orks, unspent rounds for marines, rocks..sticks, twigs for what ever, MRE flat boxes became buildings (with some tape), Radio batteries were rhinos, and then we had to remember the rules from memory, now that's Proxying, (Its amazed how bored you get on a OP when its not your watch)

Those are extenuating circumstances... in those conditions pretty much anything is fair game.
Well done! The need to game was so bad nothing would stop it.

I've only ever had my GW store manager jokingly quip once about me proxying when I played him. I myself try to minimise it as much as possible, usually it does come down to special weapons or special characters if I do. I must admit I do really prefer to play people who don't proxy most of their models but I never chastise anyone for it.

In friendly games, I'm okay with a few proxies (just not more than 50% of the army) as long as they're consistent (This Rhino is a Predator, as are all Rhino models on the table).

Corrr, glad i don't play some of you guys. Calm down it's only a game everyones in to enjoy.

As long as everythings explained at the start of the game, and isn't too confusing, i'm ok with it. Only time i've said no is when i played my IG vs blob guard, and it was these grenadiers are plasmas these are flamers, and these are melta's. in one blob squad.

I said take 10 mins to paint the edge of the bases differant colours for each weapon so i know whats what, he said he couldn't be bothered. So i said i couldn't be bothered to play him!

That wasn't me being a knob or elitest (like some on here) Just that i physically couldn't remember what everything was if i played him!

Davor wrote:
Ahhhhhh, geeks and nerds (after all we are all geeks and nerds) telling other people how to play the game.

Wonderfull. Instead of jocks in high school now we have jocks in a plastic toy soldiers game telling others how it should be done. What's next? Underwear going to be pulled over our heads if someone proxies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBBXKYWEIZM

Only ever play friendly games against friends, and every single game I've ever played contained proxies (most as simple as 'yeah that guy has a power sword'), and it's basically not a problem. Sometimes you just want to mess around with your lists and not everyone can be bothered to buy enough models to make every combination possible, or magnetize every single arm in their army.
Having said that; there are limits though. Any proxy should be easy to remember, and there should be no confusion midgame about what's what. In Space Marine armies this is generally ok. In a horde IG army this can be impossible if you go 'yeah that guy has a plasma, that one too, though that other guy etc etc etc'

 Selym wrote:

Davor wrote:
Ahhhhhh, geeks and nerds (after all we are all geeks and nerds) telling other people how to play the game.

Wonderfull. Instead of jocks in high school now we have jocks in a plastic toy soldiers game telling others how it should be done. What's next? Underwear going to be pulled over our heads if someone proxies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBBXKYWEIZM

That was great

 Requiem wrote:
Only ever play friendly games against friends, and every single game I've ever played contained proxies (most as simple as 'yeah that guy has a power sword'), and it's basically not a problem. Sometimes you just want to mess around with your lists and not everyone can be bothered to buy enough models to make every combination possible, or magnetize every single arm in their army.
Having said that; there are limits though. Any proxy should be easy to remember, and there should be no confusion midgame about what's what. In Space Marine armies this is generally ok. In a horde IG army this can be impossible if you go 'yeah that guy has a plasma, that one too, though that other guy etc etc etc'

Piece of paper saying what is what or a painted P on a base should be enough to say "this guy has a plasma".

Davor wrote:

 Requiem wrote:
Only ever play friendly games against friends, and every single game I've ever played contained proxies (most as simple as 'yeah that guy has a power sword'), and it's basically not a problem. Sometimes you just want to mess around with your lists and not everyone can be bothered to buy enough models to make every combination possible, or magnetize every single arm in their army.
Having said that; there are limits though. Any proxy should be easy to remember, and there should be no confusion midgame about what's what. In Space Marine armies this is generally ok. In a horde IG army this can be impossible if you go 'yeah that guy has a plasma, that one too, though that other guy etc etc etc'

Piece of paper saying what is what or a painted P on a base should be enough to say "this guy has a plasma".

Actually that has confused me too, I knew a guy who proxied used little toothpick banners with either color or number to signify what had what, though then again we actually wrote our lists out, and gave them to each other so that we always know what the others SHOULD have to begin with.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It's been my experience that people who play as a team are people you want to avoid anyway. Families, couples, I've never encountered a situation where they play fair. Part and parcel to not playing fair is that when someone DOES defeat them, they throw a fit or get incredibly standoffish. I'm not saying families or couples who play together can't be above board and good sports, (when my son is old enough to play, we certainly will be!) but I've never seen it happen.

I think you've played some very immature people.

Team play can be because it's a learning game or because a
guy wants to field 5k models against two smaller armies. I don't
see how poor sportsmanship is a given in those situations.

Honestly,
I don't think they're bad. As long as you clearly describe their abilities if the question arises and not get frustrated when asked.
What I think is bad, is when you bring a whole army of
SW that are just legs on bases...
That's just lazy.

It always varies person to person. Myself I say I will have 100% WYSIWYG when GW gives me 100% of the bits I need to do it. Until then I just make sure the special weapon guy has a special weapon. I find plasmas easier to get than meltas so I will use them that way I just make sure I'm consistent and don't overlap.

I.E. all my plasma guns are melta guns AND I have NO plasma guns.

What special weapons don't have models?
I understand that some complete models don't exist (Mycetic spores, etc) but afaik all special weapons have models. Why should you "be allowed" to run meltas if you don't have meltas? Just use Plasma if you have lots of plasma guns.

edit: This might have come out wrong.
I'm truly curious - why should I allow you to potentially cause confusion, etc. just because you don't want to buy different minis? If you're testing something, fine. But if you're still testing something 2 months later, there's a problem.

It is different expectations of the game.

Some think of it as a purely strategy game and would be happy to push around the bases of models with "P" for plasma written on it.

Some people like it for the other hobby aspects and want something a little more satisfying in the visual department.

I want both.

It is meant to be a full experience or why use models at all?

Just print out paper pieces to your heart's content then you do not have to guess anything and people do not have to B.S. that they will get some models done.

 Talizvar wrote:
It is different expectations of the game.

Some think of it as a purely strategy game and would be happy to push around the bases of models with "P" for plasma written on it.

Some people like it for the other hobby aspects and want something a little more satisfying in the visual department.

I want both.

It is meant to be a full experience or why use models at all?

Just print out paper pieces to your heart's content then you do not have to guess anything and people do not have to B.S. that they will get some models done.

For the most part that is how I feel. Usually I and my gaming group only proxy for an experimental tactic in friendly games, and do our best to keep every thing WYSIWYG. My army, as it stands, has only one proxy. I'm using my only flamer CSM to proxy as having a meltagun, as I've not gotten around to getting another box of troops for that last gun.

rigeld2 wrote:
What special weapons don't have models?
I understand that some complete models don't exist (Mycetic spores, etc) but afaik all special weapons have models. Why should you "be allowed" to run meltas if you don't have meltas? Just use Plasma if you have lots of plasma guns.

Actually I'm curious. I've seen the box for the new plastic Hive Tyrant, but do not own it Yet. Does it assemble in such a way you can give it Wings and two TL-Devourers? Furthermore, does any model actually come with TL-Devourers? I ask because for Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants I only have the old metal ones.

 dreamakuma wrote:
I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

I've had a guy who kept using an empty blister pack, and kept saying it was a second heldrake. I told him get a flying base at least, or drop the second drake. He refused so I didn't play him. I don't really mind if it's at least got a proper base or makes sense of it and we clearly know what it does.

I think as long as proxies aren't as outrageous as what that person was describing its not a huge deal.
stuff like that is pushing it

I'm not that stuck up about it. I don't mind it if it's for trying out new things. Or use a different model for something, as long as it's about the same size and of a decent fitting standart. (I have a perfectionistic OCD.) I won't allow it the person is using cardboard bawkses as Rhinos, predators or Leman Russes and Chimeras.

Cardboard bawkses on the hillside,
Cardboard bawkses full of Spess Mehreens!
The fewls. Let's take away their cardboard bawkses.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What special weapons don't have models?
I understand that some complete models don't exist (Mycetic spores, etc) but afaik all special weapons have models. Why should you "be allowed" to run meltas if you don't have meltas? Just use Plasma if you have lots of plasma guns.

Actually I'm curious. I've seen the box for the new plastic Hive Tyrant, but do not own it Yet. Does it assemble in such a way you can give it Wings and two TL-Devourers? Furthermore, does any model actually come with TL-Devourers? I ask because for Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants I only have the old metal ones.

You could. Wings in one socket, devs in one, and replace the "legs" with devs. Or scratch build some devs.
The new Carnifexes come with them.

WYSIWYG is a good idea in theory, but it should be employed with a bit of common sense and curtesy. It should not be fetish...which given the extreme a minority of players insist upon, it can become.

Me? I don't have a huge problem with proxies as long as they are not confusing and are consistant in their representation. The OP's "all these special weapon are plasma guns" is prefectly fine with me. But I've got a pretty decent memory for detail and come from the historical gaming community were the practice of "declaring units" at the begining of play is commonplace. For example in a Field of Glory game I might say something like "These six units are Roman Legionarii. Superior, armoured, heavy foot, drilled, impact foot and swordsmen. These four are Auxilia...etc"
It's all about proper pre-game communication. I think some people (especially the WYSIWYG fetishists) loose sight of that.

I try to keep my own figures are close to WYSIWYG as possible (that can be a trick when you are fielding models as old as some of mine, though...) and I make it a point to never field an unpainted miniature. But i recognize that not everyone holds themselves to the same high standards...and I'm fine with that.

TR

 Trench-Raider wrote:
WYSIWYG is a good idea in theory, but it should be employed with a bit of common sense and curtesy. It should not be fetish...which given the extreme a minority of players insist upon, it can become.

Me? I don't have a huge problem with proxies as long as they are not confusing and are consistant in their representation. The OP's "all these special weapon are plasma guns" is prefectly fine with me. But I've got a pretty decent memory for detail and come from the historical gaming community were the practice of "declaring units" at the begining of play is commonplace. For example in a Field of Glory game I might say something like "These six units are Roman Legionarii. Superior, armoured, heavy foot, drilled, impact foot and swordsmen. These four are Auxilia...etc"
It's all about proper pre-game communication. I think some people (especially the WYSIWYG fetishists) loose sight of that.

I try to keep my own figures are close to WYSIWYG as possible (that can be a trick when you are fielding models as old as some of mine, though...) and I make it a point to never field an unpainted miniature. But i recognize that not everyone holds themselves to the same high standards...and I'm fine with that.

TR

Doing proxies may be fine for you, but what you have to understand is he was not playing a very experienced player like you, he was playing a brand new person which is entirely different. I'm sure everyone here has seen the new person who like I did last night stumbled into their FLGS with a painted army, and no game experience who is forced to ask if every single dice roll they make is the proper one, and asking what they need.

You should try to keep it helpful for a new player, not try to list-build, or optimize with proxies.

You should try to keep it helpful for a new player

Fair enough.

But at the same time that same new player is stumbling into an enviorment were he/she will eventually encounter full "counts as" armies, third party bits, long OOP figures with weapons who's design has redically changed, very artistic players who extensively scratch build everything, the kiddies with the unpainted and partially assembled figures, as well as the occasional simple to remember proxy substitution. That is the reality of the game, and something they will have to face if they are in the game for any time at all. Compared to some of these, the situation described by the OP is mild.

The key is simple communication and common sense consistancy.

TR

 dreamakuma wrote:
I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

I've had a guy who kept using an empty blister pack, and kept saying it was a second heldrake. I told him get a flying base at least, or drop the second drake. He refused so I didn't play him. I don't really mind if it's at least got a proper base or makes sense of it and we clearly know what it does.

And then asks you to hurry up and finish your beer cos he needs a third mycetic spore drop pod.

I used to be the kid that played with proxies. And now I am no longer.

What I remember about being the proxy kid was being too lazy to build new models, or choosing to spend my money elsewhere.

What I do not remember is being literally unable to finish my army.

Now that it is finished, and I see just how easy it was, I refuse to play against proxies. I have been there, but it was incredibly easy to fix. I am a poor college student with no more than a couple of hours a week to sit down and truly model, yet it is easy to fix.

just one model at a time.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 MaCa wrote:
I already played against cardboard boxes as rhinos, transformer toys as dreadknights and the best and takes-the-cake here, a legion of lego minis as Necron Warriors.

I guess I'm pretty open minded, if it is the first time someone is testing a unit, but I'll get cranky if he'll come back for a third+ try with the same box of mints rhino.

In my opinion, the rules are there, but they aren't really balanced. So if we chuck the "wanting to win" part out of the equation, we're left with enjoying the game for what it is - we're playing this game for its story and for the cool, sweet looking miniatures. If you take that away too - the game starts to look like a slowed version of chess or a pirated copy of starcraft 1 with bad translation and third-party badly modded sprites.

To be honest, I love playing again someone whose done a complete lego force. It's both funny and creative if you can make em look right.

The sad thing is, Lego's cost similar prices to GW :(

I have no problem with proxying so long as you intend to buy the models in question.


I'm planning on running a zombie horde army with Typhus, using my warhammer models as proxy for zombies. Whilst I do intend to buy the zombies soon, I haven't got the money on me to splash out 75 quid on zombies.

welshhoppo wrote:
I have no problem with proxying so long as you intend to buy the models in question.


I'm planning on running a zombie horde army with Typhus, using my warhammer models as proxy for zombies. Whilst I do intend to buy the zombies soon, I haven't got the money on me to splash out 75 quid on zombies.

Personally I'd say that any model (human, xenos, mutant or fantastical) that's been painted with rot and/or missing some body parts is a usable zombie

Except maybe the large ones...
...like dragons...

I suppose Bretonnian peasants do look a little bit like zombies anyway

I lol'ed at this

DjPyro3 wrote:
I was playing a 2600 point game today. IG VS IG and Nids. This married couple was new to the store, and the wife was new to the game, so I decided to challenge them to a match, as they seemed a tad bored and the store was pretty empty. They happily agreed and we got off to a good start, until I started listing out the units I was bringing. They saw my 2 Vet squads didn't have 3 plasma guns each (due to the fact plasma's are a little hard to come by in IG unit boxes. And my LRBT was an Executioner. (I had bought them early in my 40K career when I didn't know squat about the game, and as 17 year old I'm to poor to afford another round of Leman Russ's to make them Executioners) and I wanted tory out a Collosus instead of a Bassilisk like I normally bring because they looked cool. After they, they griped and complained constantly about my army, saying how all of their units were WYSIWYG and it was annoying to play against my army. By the end of it, I had won 9-6 but I felt so defeated due to them complaining about my army...I guess in all of this, I want to ask is this normal? Should I shell out the money to get three more Leman Russ's and get those Plasma's and just buy units I want to test out? Should I be ashamed for proxying?

Different people play the game differently. These people you played might be a little too serious about their game. Try to find more laid back gamers who realize that 40k is just a game and that don't try and ruin your enjoyment of the game. What the couple should have done is politely opt out of the game with you before it started, when you told them you would be using some proxies, rather than agreeing to play against proxies and then whining about it throughout the game. While their perspective on how to play 40k is every bit as valid as yours is, they were the ones who agreed to play against proxies, and so should not have bitched and moaned about it.

Makumba wrote:Proxy models are offensive .

Somebody is taking things a little too seriously. I can understand not wanting to play against a proxied or unpainted army, but offensive? Certainly there are better things out there for you to be offended by?

Proxies are fine for casual.play and experimenting, but after a while, they become tedious and discourteous. Playing what you have is part of the game. For people who didn't know the OP, it could have looked.like he was tailoring his.list to overpower theirs. WYSIWYG is a courtesy for your opponent's information. in one way shap or form, it is nice to be able to quickly identify major upgrades like plasma and the like.

long story short, unless one is specifically experimenting, pkay what you have or acquire the proper pieces.

 augustus5 wrote:
Different people play the game differently. These people you played might be a little too serious about their game.

The term serious gamer always makes me do this > Unless it's a paid tourney I have no patience for that attitude.

One thing I've found useful is to paper proxy; I google a pic of a properly outfitted model I want to test, print it to proper scale, glue it to some foam board, trim accordingly and put it on a proper sized base. Cheap as heck and WYSIWYG.

I'm a gamer with a very tight budget, and while my wife doesn't object to my spending money on the hobby I still can't buy all the stuff I would like. My friends and I proxy stuff all the time. The Warhound Titan in our first Apocalypse game was a giant rat from Halloween. None of us have the $300.00 to $500.00 to shell out for Titans. I am in the middle of painting a set of Mantic Werewolves for Crypt Horrors simply because I don't care for the GW models. Personally I don't think it's a problem as long as you explain what is what to your opponent.

 Dakkamite wrote:
Depends on your local gaming culture.

Here in NZ we generally don't give a gak. WSYIWYG models are better but what you gonna do?

Other areas, America chiefly amongst them from what I've seen on here, seem to be a bit more anal about this sort of thing

What was proxying as a Plasma Gunner? Could you not just paint neon blue patches on it? While there are a few people who are right into their "Plasma gun must be an official GW plasma gun" stuff, the majority should be ok with "this guy with the obvious glowing blue weapon is a plasma gunner"

I haven't run across anyone here that has been anal about WYSIWYG and that has been across multiple states over 15 years. Personally I don't mind proxies and do use them from time to time, especially to try out new strategies. If I like it then I do eventually go and buy the appropriate models. If you don't have the cash on hand for it then really don't worry too much about it. Pick up the stuff when you do and make it work that way. Just be sure to ask if it's cool to use a few proxies before the game starts and if they don't want to allow them then be cool and just go with it. It is nice to see a properly kitted army on the table though.

If it is mutually agreed before hand, than alright. But, if say I as a player shell out all the cash/trading potential to get all the right models displayed wysiwyg and my opponent doesn't, well ... it just kind of leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Like, "Why do I care to respect modeling everything correctly, when no one else does?" When I want to run something I don't have, my first thought isn't "Well, what can I proxy it as?" Rather than "How can I get that model?" or "What can I run in it's place?" It's far more important to me to have an army that is WYSIWYG (due to my forgetfulness) rather than one that wins while being false in a sense.

Now if I forgot a model at home ... that's different. But, I digress.