Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Yeah, I don't mind proxies as long as it looks a tiny bit like whatever you are proxying.

Those plasma gunners? Are they IG but carrying the wrong gun? Perfect, let's play. The Leman Russ has the wrong turret? Screw it, it's still a LR.

What I truly dislike is what dreamakuma said: Cans as drop pods.

That's just stretching your luck

I already played against cardboard boxes as rhinos, transformer toys as dreadknights and the best and takes-the-cake here, a legion of lego minis as Necron Warriors.

I guess I'm pretty open minded, if it is the first time someone is testing a unit, but I'll get cranky if he'll come back for a third+ try with the same box of mints rhino.

In my opinion, the rules are there, but they aren't really balanced. So if we chuck the "wanting to win" part out of the equation, we're left with enjoying the game for what it is - we're playing this game for its story and for the cool, sweet looking miniatures. If you take that away too - the game starts to look like a slowed version of chess or a pirated copy of starcraft 1 with bad translation and third-party badly modded sprites.

I really prefer to play against painted, completely WYSIWYG armies; the visual aspect of the game is just important to me, and if we just cared about what was cheapest we could as well play with bottle caps and cardboard boxes.

That being said, your proxies seem rather reasonable, few wrong guns basically. And you told them you were using them, and they still agreed to play, so constant whining about it seems unreasonable.

But if you like plasma, get these. Not terribly expensive. As for tanks, I'd recommend magnetising the guns, so you can swap between the weapons. Current LR kits at least come with plenty of extra guns.

I've played with some horrific proxies in private games testing different armies/builds with a buddy of mine, so nothing really bothers me as long as I can tell model A from model B and model B from model C.

...and I'll toss my soda can mycetic spore pods in the recycling bin when GW makes some actual models for them

DjPyro3 wrote:
I do use Plasma's quite a bit...just don't like the idea of spending 5 bucks on each plasma gunner when I've lived this long without them.

Wow. I'm totally fine with proxies and all that other stuff but if you told me this, I'd be a bit pissed on the inside. You're basically saying you don't want to pay for the right models to play the game. I can understand temporary proxying or playtesting but to refuse to buy, convert, or do SOMETHING to represent a PERMANENT model you'll be using for years?

There shouldn't be a problem with proxying or WYSIWYG as long as it's obvious. If you have no plasma in your models but your army is filled with plasma, as long as you make it easy on your opponent to remember, it should be fine. For example, painting 3 of the lasguns blue to represent plasma guns. Or saying "all Leman Russ are Executioners". But if you mix and match and the opponent has to keep track of dozens of individual, INVISIBLE, important game-changing wargear that you failed to and, even worse, REFUSE to model? That's a lame move.

If playing a n00b would it really hurt playing WYSIWYG, just to make life easier for them.

I'm thinking about starting playing at the moment as I've only just got back into the painting side and there are so many rules it does seem it is going to be hard to pick it all up. As somebody previously said, there will be enough to have to remember without models not actually being what they are.

For any other player with some experience the proxies seem reasonable though. The situation shouldn't have been an issue if you discussed it though so fault on both parts.

I do everything I can to field WYSIWYG armies. If i want a particular piece of wargear I will try to track it down or do my best to convert. Why do i do this? Out of respect for my opponent.

If i'm playing a game, and my boltguns are really boltguns, except these 3 boltguns those are grav guns, and that boltgun over there is a plasmagun, and that last guy holding a boltgun? No, he's a sarge with a power axe and a combat shield. Now, even if your opponent is sheldon cooper, you're just added more complexity to an already complex game by making them mentally keep up with your 'counts-as' army. If you win that game, it's not necessarily because you outplayed your opponent but rather made their head swim with confusing proxies.

The game is already expensive - we pay $40 for a box of 10 plastic dudes (if we're lucky! many boxes are $33 for 5!). Using price as an excuse not to have accurately represented models is bunk. In a friendly game, telling your opponent beforehand you want to try out a unit by counting it as something different, is FINE. That's how we determine what we want to add next to our army. What isn't fine, is saying "well i can count this rhino as a whirlwind, so why should I ever buy the whirlwind?" and never getting the real model even though you repeatedly use it and enjoy its effect on the game.

In short, do as others have suggested and update your army with a few extra bits. You can pop off the turret of the tank with a little elbow grease and magnetize the weapon options, or just magnetize the NEXT one you buy. For everything else, just field it as what it is and try playing that way. If you only have lasguns on your veterans, then play them as lasguns. if your LR is a battle cannon, then use the battle cannon. If winning becomes difficult for you after doing this, relish the challenge and the chance to become a better player. And you'll get excited when you start converting and adding bits to your army, i think. You'll also hear less harumphing from your opponents.

 MaCa wrote:
I already played against cardboard boxes as rhinos, transformer toys as dreadknights and the best and takes-the-cake here, a legion of lego minis as Necron Warriors.

I guess I'm pretty open minded, if it is the first time someone is testing a unit, but I'll get cranky if he'll come back for a third+ try with the same box of mints rhino.

In my opinion, the rules are there, but they aren't really balanced. So if we chuck the "wanting to win" part out of the equation, we're left with enjoying the game for what it is - we're playing this game for its story and for the cool, sweet looking miniatures. If you take that away too - the game starts to look like a slowed version of chess or a pirated copy of starcraft 1 with bad translation and third-party badly modded sprites.

To be honest, I love playing again someone whose done a complete lego force. It's both funny and creative if you can make em look right.

 Largeblastmarker wrote:


This sounds like you think she must have been unintelligent or something. He obviously explained to them.And I think a husband and wife have better things to talk about than that kid who was using proxy models.

Oh yes.... Just out of curiosity OP, what general region of the US were you playing in?

This has nothing to do with explaining . He can test stuff he wants to test other way without buying the models and making the game for others unfun. And if he likes to spam plasma , as he says himself , then this doesn't make sense at all. He likes to play with certain units or weapons , but doesn't want to buy the proper gear. It is not like plasma guns are impossible to get. He also says he is a veteran too . Puting a proxy army to play against new people out of which one still is learning the game is a stupid thing to do.

It was nicely mentioned some easy conversions from fellow Dakkanaughts (Dakkaknights, Dakkites?).
See link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/467370.page
I REALLY like the clever use of bits.
After seeing this, there is no reason to not fully load up your IG.

Just do not settle for proxy, it provides all kinds of excuses for not finishing your army.

Now I just have to figure out how to keep things going with my friend who insists on playing his unpainted but complete Squat army.

Proxies are particularly hard on new gamers because it is just one more thing to remember so it can be irritating.

Exactly. Add to that the fact that a 2600 point game is a huge game for beginners and they probably just felt like it was too much to keep track of. Like others have said, I generally don't mind it as long as we're not dealing with half your army being something else. IN the case of a big unit (like x tank is actually some other tank) I usually just ask my opponent if he minds if I put a note on the table next to the unit that actually says "I'm really something else". That's the approach I take when I proxy things (which is rare) and I've never had an issue.

I like the NZ way of thinking. Lego dudes in tourneys? Quite cool, indeed!

Well, in my scene (quite small and home-y, as there isn't a FLGS dedicated to wargames) we use everything in our disposal to proxy. I've used 2L Coke bottles as Wraithknights (after comparing one's base to a wraithguard).

Basically, we try new stuff with proxies. (starting new SM this week. I don't have any of the flyers models, so my friend's Valkyries will do as Ravens!) Only my friend's IG is quite accurate in what they do. My CSM and some DV DAs do a lot of marine work, though Ah... you'd laugh at what we use as Tyranids or even scenario (wallets as ruins, paper ADL and stuff)

Other brazilian areas are much more WISIWYG, as they're veterans... I started playing only in november

An empty package as a heldrake? Hmm. I guess this means next game aginst him you have the right to run orange peels as troops, commanded by Captain 'wad o' newspaper' and his elite Bottlecap Guard.

Then when least expected, Sergeant Marlboro and the Cigarette Butt Devils will deepstrike into the heart of the enemy! It's foolproof. And affordable.

proxies are all cool in my opinion. sorry you got griped at OP by them couple. i believe everyone who doesnt have an exorbitant amount of $ to spend has to proxy at one point.

I usually try to stay wysiwyg, but occasionally I will join my veterans onto my 5 man combat squad and proxy them as a tactical squad. 5 are normal marines whilst the other 5 are robed they keep the same weapons as 2 have bolters, the vs becomes a tactical vs, the missile launcher stays as it is but the plasma pistol becomes a plasma gun. That's the extent of my proxying (until I get round to buying the new tactical squad anyway). My friend who has some chaos does quite a bit of proxying which I don't mind he does things like a terminator lord counting as typhus or cultists being plague zombies.

dreamakuma wrote:I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

You know that for a long time, there were no models for drop pods so GW encouraged people to use things like plastic cups?

Makumba wrote:Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

Your contempt for people who can't afford more models (especially ones they may find that they don't want to use) at the moment is the offensive thing here.

I honestly wouldn't care if you brought rainbow paint splattered plastic army men toys to the table as long as you made it clear what is what. Maybe I'm just laidback and therefore evil, but there are more important things than WYSIWYG. Like planning out looted Heirophants.

 Talore wrote:

dreamakuma wrote:I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

You know that for a long time, there were no models for drop pods so GW encouraged people to use things like plastic cups?

Makumba wrote:Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

Your contempt for people who can't afford more models (especially ones they may find that they don't want to use) at the moment is the offensive thing here.

Plastic drop pods have been around for six years or so If I remember right. It's not like the stat line is there and no model at all exists or it just came out. It's been around a bit. People can catch up with the times and buy one instead of having 5 spray paint cans sitting on a table so he can drop pod assault. Heck there's a tutorial to craft them with paper that at least shows an effort.

Way more fun to play against a well painted, based and correctly equipped army then it is to play against a bunch of gray models that may or may not have the right weapons attached. I won't agree with opinion that it's "offensive", but I do think at some point, if you can't make the effort to bring your armies up to speed, you are showing a bit of disrespect to your opponents.

Don't be the guy that brings potato chips to a pot luck. Put a little effort into your hobby.

I once played against someone who wanted to field a "proxy army" of Imperial Guard using the Leman Russ heavy build...he was using toy cars and stuff for his Leman Russ Tanks...I told him to remake his list. It's one thing to have a ton of infantry and not all of their weapons match, especially for Guard...but using something that doesn't even resemble what it's supposed to be is another thing entirely.

I would probably have been fine with what you were doing.

I believe people should be able to proxy, however, its the other guy's duty to mock and ridicule you on account of the proxy whenever possible (in good fun of course). The same goes for unpainted or speed painted armies. We all have to do our parts to keep the field as interesting and representative as possible.

I make things clear ahead of.time that I'm using proxies and if they don't like it they can find another game

I tend to use proxies in my army. Mostly due to edition changes. For example, Termagants used to have to buy a gun. To keep them cheap I gave them all Spinefists. Now they come with Fleshborers standard but I no longer have the bits (or the patience) to go through and change all of them.

However, when it comes to upgrades, my units are run identical. Every squad of Gants is decked out the same. Every Tervigon has the same load-out except psychic powers (because I roll trice on Bio with all of them). Every squad of Eldar Guardians have the same weapon platform. Etc.

 namiel wrote:
I make things clear ahead of.time that I'm using proxies and if they don't like it they can find another game

Perfect solution. Both players will be better off not playing each other.

 Happyjew wrote:
I tend to use proxies in my army. Mostly due to edition changes. For example, Termagants used to have to buy a gun. To keep them cheap I gave them all Spinefists. Now they come with Fleshborers standard but I no longer have the bits (or the patience) to go through and change all of them.

However, when it comes to upgrades, my units are run identical. Every squad of Gants is decked out the same. Every Tervigon has the same load-out except psychic powers (because I roll trice on Bio with all of them). Every squad of Eldar Guardians have the same weapon platform. Etc.

I agree with the above. Been playing since 3rd edition and with every edition change the idea of having to change all of my models or buying completely new armies is just not an option. So I run with what I have, WYSIWYG be damned. My basic Chaplin model represents my Chaplin with a Storm Shield and Burning Blade now because I am not going to break the model down to modify with a sword and a shield, considering I don't really want to run him that way every game, nor am I going to buy a new Chaplin model to modify with every load out possible. I could magnetize things but that would make an already expensive and time consuming hobby more time consuming and expensive. I play this for the fun of throwing dice around with friends, refuse to do tournaments.

If you're trying something new, sure. If its part of your regular force... pay the few dollars. Though it looks like you sorted this out Enjoy

The only models you "need" to play the game are the ones that you and your opponent decide on. Whether this is 100% GW fully painted wizywyg models, third party models, a mixed handful of all the minis you have, green plastic army men or paper chits. The only thing that is required is that you and your opponent reach a happy consensus. The idea that their is some ethical, moral or legal requirement to play with the official models once you've purchased the rules is laughable.

However, when playing with strangers I feel it's important to put your best foot forward and make your modeling as clear as possible. If this means limiting your proxies to just a few things (ie this Big Mek is actually a Weirdboy, or all flamethrowers in the army are actually meltaguns) you should just bite the bullet and make your list as your units are modeled. This is really just common courtesy, facilitating gameplay and the golden rule of D.B.A.D.

I greatly prefer battles between painted (and most models don't even have to be detailed very well at all to look passably nice massed together on the tabletop), mostly-WYSIWYG armies. I make an exception for characters. I love seeing people's crazy, kit-bashed characters and (a la Warhammer Fantasy's lax rules about character modelling) I don't care if a Chaos Lord actually has that sword he's wielding or if he's using a powerfist instead. Rule of cool over WYSIWYG in that case.

There are other cases I'll make exceptions for. My brother plays CSM and 'nids and though his CSM are pretty much WYSIWYG (aside from a couple Champions and his now-armless terminators [poor blokes]) he absolutely hates the way fleshborers look on Termagants, so he has -all- termagants modeled with devourers, but using them as Fleshborers. Something army-wide, uniform, and easy to remember like that is a-ok. Plus I think fleshborers look dumb, too.

When playing with my brother or a friend more list-testing proxies tend to get used, but I'd never do that in a pick up game. I do completely understand how time-consuming painting up an entire army can be--and that someone might want to play a few games in between the bouts of ungodly sums of painting time--so I'm more than willing to accept grey/primed models. But keeping them WYSIWYG just saves time and headache, especially at higher point games.

I dont tend to have any issues with proxies as long as the opponents army isnt extremely technical and confusing in regards to wargear. The odd weapon swap here and there is fine. I find all proxy armies that dont even attempt to be representative difficult to play against, a uniform lego army is fine, an army of cardboard boxes and soda bottles is not.

As someone very used to gaming on a budget, I try to convert and kitbash the hell out of everything. Usually if I have an abundance of one bit I can convert them to be what I need (eg one time i did unneeded IG flamers into shotguns). I have never found a way around the torso/legs dilemma though...

Below is my Csm army. its getting close to the 15k points is fully magnetized for pretty much every wysiwyg combination it also cost me about $1 a point to get it all done nicely.


if you dont have a boat load of spare cash. then proxy away just make what you have clear and obvious and there really shouldnt be any problems. i mean short on cash all good but laziness isnt fair for models that you use every game over a very long time. those that decide to use a coke bottle for a drop pod for a few games to try them out go to town The only time id have a problem with it was if you literally couldnt be bothered/ used totally innapropriate things.

i honestly think that the people you encountered were having a bit of a sook, did they start complaining at the begining, or later?

ps i love the idea of lego men for necrons pull them apart when killed and put them back together if they reanimate