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Ahhhhhh, geeks and nerds (after all we are all geeks and nerds) telling other people how to play the game.

Wonderfull. Instead of jocks in high school now we have jocks in a plastic toy soldiers game telling others how it should be done. What's next? Underwear going to be pulled over our heads if someone proxies?

In a friendly game, as far as I'm concerned, proxy what you like.

In a tournament, you really need your stuff to be WYSIWYG. Alternatively, if it's a counts-as army (sometimes one of the only ways to use beloved old models), make sure it's pretty obvious what counts as what AND hand out a cheat-sheet to your opponent letting them know precisely what counts as what.

In Afganistan myself and a couple buddies Proxied EVERYTHING1

We used Cola cans for dreads, spent shells for Orks, unspent rounds for marines, rocks..sticks, twigs for what ever, MRE flat boxes became buildings (with some tape), Radio batteries were rhinos, and then we had to remember the rules from memory, now that's Proxying, (Its amazed how bored you get on a OP when its not your watch)

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
In Afganistan myself and a couple buddies Proxied EVERYTHING1

We used Cola cans for dreads, spent shells for Orks, unspent rounds for marines, rocks..sticks, twigs for what ever, MRE flat boxes became buildings (with some tape), Radio batteries were rhinos, and then we had to remember the rules from memory, now that's Proxying, (Its amazed how bored you get on a OP when its not your watch)

sounds like too much work

i'd woulda just used rocks

 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
In Afganistan myself and a couple buddies Proxied EVERYTHING1
We used Cola cans for dreads, spent shells for Orks, unspent rounds for marines, rocks..sticks, twigs for what ever, MRE flat boxes became buildings (with some tape), Radio batteries were rhinos, and then we had to remember the rules from memory, now that's Proxying, (Its amazed how bored you get on a OP when its not your watch)

Those are extenuating circumstances... in those conditions pretty much anything is fair game.
Well done! The need to game was so bad nothing would stop it.

I've only ever had my GW store manager jokingly quip once about me proxying when I played him. I myself try to minimise it as much as possible, usually it does come down to special weapons or special characters if I do. I must admit I do really prefer to play people who don't proxy most of their models but I never chastise anyone for it.

In friendly games, I'm okay with a few proxies (just not more than 50% of the army) as long as they're consistent (This Rhino is a Predator, as are all Rhino models on the table).

Corrr, glad i don't play some of you guys. Calm down it's only a game everyones in to enjoy.

As long as everythings explained at the start of the game, and isn't too confusing, i'm ok with it. Only time i've said no is when i played my IG vs blob guard, and it was these grenadiers are plasmas these are flamers, and these are melta's. in one blob squad.

I said take 10 mins to paint the edge of the bases differant colours for each weapon so i know whats what, he said he couldn't be bothered. So i said i couldn't be bothered to play him!

That wasn't me being a knob or elitest (like some on here) Just that i physically couldn't remember what everything was if i played him!

Davor wrote:
Ahhhhhh, geeks and nerds (after all we are all geeks and nerds) telling other people how to play the game.

Wonderfull. Instead of jocks in high school now we have jocks in a plastic toy soldiers game telling others how it should be done. What's next? Underwear going to be pulled over our heads if someone proxies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBBXKYWEIZM

Only ever play friendly games against friends, and every single game I've ever played contained proxies (most as simple as 'yeah that guy has a power sword'), and it's basically not a problem. Sometimes you just want to mess around with your lists and not everyone can be bothered to buy enough models to make every combination possible, or magnetize every single arm in their army.
Having said that; there are limits though. Any proxy should be easy to remember, and there should be no confusion midgame about what's what. In Space Marine armies this is generally ok. In a horde IG army this can be impossible if you go 'yeah that guy has a plasma, that one too, though that other guy etc etc etc'

 Selym wrote:

Davor wrote:
Ahhhhhh, geeks and nerds (after all we are all geeks and nerds) telling other people how to play the game.

Wonderfull. Instead of jocks in high school now we have jocks in a plastic toy soldiers game telling others how it should be done. What's next? Underwear going to be pulled over our heads if someone proxies?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBBXKYWEIZM

That was great

 Requiem wrote:
Only ever play friendly games against friends, and every single game I've ever played contained proxies (most as simple as 'yeah that guy has a power sword'), and it's basically not a problem. Sometimes you just want to mess around with your lists and not everyone can be bothered to buy enough models to make every combination possible, or magnetize every single arm in their army.
Having said that; there are limits though. Any proxy should be easy to remember, and there should be no confusion midgame about what's what. In Space Marine armies this is generally ok. In a horde IG army this can be impossible if you go 'yeah that guy has a plasma, that one too, though that other guy etc etc etc'

Piece of paper saying what is what or a painted P on a base should be enough to say "this guy has a plasma".

Davor wrote:

 Requiem wrote:
Only ever play friendly games against friends, and every single game I've ever played contained proxies (most as simple as 'yeah that guy has a power sword'), and it's basically not a problem. Sometimes you just want to mess around with your lists and not everyone can be bothered to buy enough models to make every combination possible, or magnetize every single arm in their army.
Having said that; there are limits though. Any proxy should be easy to remember, and there should be no confusion midgame about what's what. In Space Marine armies this is generally ok. In a horde IG army this can be impossible if you go 'yeah that guy has a plasma, that one too, though that other guy etc etc etc'

Piece of paper saying what is what or a painted P on a base should be enough to say "this guy has a plasma".

Actually that has confused me too, I knew a guy who proxied used little toothpick banners with either color or number to signify what had what, though then again we actually wrote our lists out, and gave them to each other so that we always know what the others SHOULD have to begin with.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It's been my experience that people who play as a team are people you want to avoid anyway. Families, couples, I've never encountered a situation where they play fair. Part and parcel to not playing fair is that when someone DOES defeat them, they throw a fit or get incredibly standoffish. I'm not saying families or couples who play together can't be above board and good sports, (when my son is old enough to play, we certainly will be!) but I've never seen it happen.

I think you've played some very immature people.

Team play can be because it's a learning game or because a
guy wants to field 5k models against two smaller armies. I don't
see how poor sportsmanship is a given in those situations.

Honestly,
I don't think they're bad. As long as you clearly describe their abilities if the question arises and not get frustrated when asked.
What I think is bad, is when you bring a whole army of
SW that are just legs on bases...
That's just lazy.

It always varies person to person. Myself I say I will have 100% WYSIWYG when GW gives me 100% of the bits I need to do it. Until then I just make sure the special weapon guy has a special weapon. I find plasmas easier to get than meltas so I will use them that way I just make sure I'm consistent and don't overlap.

I.E. all my plasma guns are melta guns AND I have NO plasma guns.

What special weapons don't have models?
I understand that some complete models don't exist (Mycetic spores, etc) but afaik all special weapons have models. Why should you "be allowed" to run meltas if you don't have meltas? Just use Plasma if you have lots of plasma guns.

edit: This might have come out wrong.
I'm truly curious - why should I allow you to potentially cause confusion, etc. just because you don't want to buy different minis? If you're testing something, fine. But if you're still testing something 2 months later, there's a problem.

It is different expectations of the game.

Some think of it as a purely strategy game and would be happy to push around the bases of models with "P" for plasma written on it.

Some people like it for the other hobby aspects and want something a little more satisfying in the visual department.

I want both.

It is meant to be a full experience or why use models at all?

Just print out paper pieces to your heart's content then you do not have to guess anything and people do not have to B.S. that they will get some models done.

 Talizvar wrote:
It is different expectations of the game.

Some think of it as a purely strategy game and would be happy to push around the bases of models with "P" for plasma written on it.

Some people like it for the other hobby aspects and want something a little more satisfying in the visual department.

I want both.

It is meant to be a full experience or why use models at all?

Just print out paper pieces to your heart's content then you do not have to guess anything and people do not have to B.S. that they will get some models done.

For the most part that is how I feel. Usually I and my gaming group only proxy for an experimental tactic in friendly games, and do our best to keep every thing WYSIWYG. My army, as it stands, has only one proxy. I'm using my only flamer CSM to proxy as having a meltagun, as I've not gotten around to getting another box of troops for that last gun.

rigeld2 wrote:
What special weapons don't have models?
I understand that some complete models don't exist (Mycetic spores, etc) but afaik all special weapons have models. Why should you "be allowed" to run meltas if you don't have meltas? Just use Plasma if you have lots of plasma guns.

Actually I'm curious. I've seen the box for the new plastic Hive Tyrant, but do not own it Yet. Does it assemble in such a way you can give it Wings and two TL-Devourers? Furthermore, does any model actually come with TL-Devourers? I ask because for Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants I only have the old metal ones.

 dreamakuma wrote:
I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

I've had a guy who kept using an empty blister pack, and kept saying it was a second heldrake. I told him get a flying base at least, or drop the second drake. He refused so I didn't play him. I don't really mind if it's at least got a proper base or makes sense of it and we clearly know what it does.

I think as long as proxies aren't as outrageous as what that person was describing its not a huge deal.
stuff like that is pushing it

I'm not that stuck up about it. I don't mind it if it's for trying out new things. Or use a different model for something, as long as it's about the same size and of a decent fitting standart. (I have a perfectionistic OCD.) I won't allow it the person is using cardboard bawkses as Rhinos, predators or Leman Russes and Chimeras.

Cardboard bawkses on the hillside,
Cardboard bawkses full of Spess Mehreens!
The fewls. Let's take away their cardboard bawkses.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
What special weapons don't have models?
I understand that some complete models don't exist (Mycetic spores, etc) but afaik all special weapons have models. Why should you "be allowed" to run meltas if you don't have meltas? Just use Plasma if you have lots of plasma guns.

Actually I'm curious. I've seen the box for the new plastic Hive Tyrant, but do not own it Yet. Does it assemble in such a way you can give it Wings and two TL-Devourers? Furthermore, does any model actually come with TL-Devourers? I ask because for Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants I only have the old metal ones.

You could. Wings in one socket, devs in one, and replace the "legs" with devs. Or scratch build some devs.
The new Carnifexes come with them.

WYSIWYG is a good idea in theory, but it should be employed with a bit of common sense and curtesy. It should not be fetish...which given the extreme a minority of players insist upon, it can become.

Me? I don't have a huge problem with proxies as long as they are not confusing and are consistant in their representation. The OP's "all these special weapon are plasma guns" is prefectly fine with me. But I've got a pretty decent memory for detail and come from the historical gaming community were the practice of "declaring units" at the begining of play is commonplace. For example in a Field of Glory game I might say something like "These six units are Roman Legionarii. Superior, armoured, heavy foot, drilled, impact foot and swordsmen. These four are Auxilia...etc"
It's all about proper pre-game communication. I think some people (especially the WYSIWYG fetishists) loose sight of that.

I try to keep my own figures are close to WYSIWYG as possible (that can be a trick when you are fielding models as old as some of mine, though...) and I make it a point to never field an unpainted miniature. But i recognize that not everyone holds themselves to the same high standards...and I'm fine with that.

TR

 Trench-Raider wrote:
WYSIWYG is a good idea in theory, but it should be employed with a bit of common sense and curtesy. It should not be fetish...which given the extreme a minority of players insist upon, it can become.

Me? I don't have a huge problem with proxies as long as they are not confusing and are consistant in their representation. The OP's "all these special weapon are plasma guns" is prefectly fine with me. But I've got a pretty decent memory for detail and come from the historical gaming community were the practice of "declaring units" at the begining of play is commonplace. For example in a Field of Glory game I might say something like "These six units are Roman Legionarii. Superior, armoured, heavy foot, drilled, impact foot and swordsmen. These four are Auxilia...etc"
It's all about proper pre-game communication. I think some people (especially the WYSIWYG fetishists) loose sight of that.

I try to keep my own figures are close to WYSIWYG as possible (that can be a trick when you are fielding models as old as some of mine, though...) and I make it a point to never field an unpainted miniature. But i recognize that not everyone holds themselves to the same high standards...and I'm fine with that.

TR

Doing proxies may be fine for you, but what you have to understand is he was not playing a very experienced player like you, he was playing a brand new person which is entirely different. I'm sure everyone here has seen the new person who like I did last night stumbled into their FLGS with a painted army, and no game experience who is forced to ask if every single dice roll they make is the proper one, and asking what they need.

You should try to keep it helpful for a new player, not try to list-build, or optimize with proxies.

You should try to keep it helpful for a new player

Fair enough.

But at the same time that same new player is stumbling into an enviorment were he/she will eventually encounter full "counts as" armies, third party bits, long OOP figures with weapons who's design has redically changed, very artistic players who extensively scratch build everything, the kiddies with the unpainted and partially assembled figures, as well as the occasional simple to remember proxy substitution. That is the reality of the game, and something they will have to face if they are in the game for any time at all. Compared to some of these, the situation described by the OP is mild.

The key is simple communication and common sense consistancy.

TR

 dreamakuma wrote:
I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

I've had a guy who kept using an empty blister pack, and kept saying it was a second heldrake. I told him get a flying base at least, or drop the second drake. He refused so I didn't play him. I don't really mind if it's at least got a proper base or makes sense of it and we clearly know what it does.

And then asks you to hurry up and finish your beer cos he needs a third mycetic spore drop pod.

I used to be the kid that played with proxies. And now I am no longer.

What I remember about being the proxy kid was being too lazy to build new models, or choosing to spend my money elsewhere.

What I do not remember is being literally unable to finish my army.

Now that it is finished, and I see just how easy it was, I refuse to play against proxies. I have been there, but it was incredibly easy to fix. I am a poor college student with no more than a couple of hours a week to sit down and truly model, yet it is easy to fix.

just one model at a time.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 MaCa wrote:
I already played against cardboard boxes as rhinos, transformer toys as dreadknights and the best and takes-the-cake here, a legion of lego minis as Necron Warriors.

I guess I'm pretty open minded, if it is the first time someone is testing a unit, but I'll get cranky if he'll come back for a third+ try with the same box of mints rhino.

In my opinion, the rules are there, but they aren't really balanced. So if we chuck the "wanting to win" part out of the equation, we're left with enjoying the game for what it is - we're playing this game for its story and for the cool, sweet looking miniatures. If you take that away too - the game starts to look like a slowed version of chess or a pirated copy of starcraft 1 with bad translation and third-party badly modded sprites.

To be honest, I love playing again someone whose done a complete lego force. It's both funny and creative if you can make em look right.

The sad thing is, Lego's cost similar prices to GW :(

I have no problem with proxying so long as you intend to buy the models in question.


I'm planning on running a zombie horde army with Typhus, using my warhammer models as proxy for zombies. Whilst I do intend to buy the zombies soon, I haven't got the money on me to splash out 75 quid on zombies.