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I proxie my devourer gaunts all the time simply due to the fact that i've already had to paint so many gaunts. Everyone does it at some point, dont worry about it your proxies were minor anyway. I'd play against someone with your proxies any day of the week.

Though there is a limit. When you start proxying everything on the table (These Dire Avengers are actually Howling Banshees, the Howling Banshees are Fire Dragons, the Fire Dragons are Guardians, the Guardians are Wraithguard and the Wraithguard are Wraithlords) there is a bit of an issue.

Table wrote:

 namiel wrote:
I make things clear ahead of.time that I'm using proxies and if they don't like it they can find another game

Perfect solution. Both players will be better off not playing each other.

if its a friendly pickup game then it shouldnt matter too much. I understand when in the tournment scene but if I am going to a tournment then i know ahead of time what i am bringing and prepare accordingly

I hate proxying with a deep burning passion, it is my belife if that you take the time to collect, build and maintain whatever army you play you should take the time to at least use the correct models.

I hate proxying with a deep burning passion, it is my belief if that you take the time to collect, build and maintain whatever army you play you should take the time to at least use the correct models.

This attitude absolutely boggles my mind. I mean, if I'm showing up week in and week out and telling you that my deodorant stick is my Punisher/Razorback/Flyrant, and my match-sticks are actually a Kroot squad, then fine. That's rediculous.

On the other hand (and keeping in mind I'm not talking about a tournament or a competition here - just friendly games), if I have only x amount of dollars, and I'm stuck between buying unit y OR unit z, and the rest of my army is decently wysiwyg, you would seriously have an issue with a few proxy games for me to decide which to buy? If so, you are taking this WAY too seriously.

TL;DR:

Not all proxy situations are created equal and a blanket rule like that seems oddly serious for a game where a lot of adults regularly push around toys ...

The hate towards proxies in this thread isn't directed towards the guy who is testing out a unit or 2. I'd say the main issue is when it becomes hard to differentiate between multiple units and/or the player using the proxies cannot be bothered to buy the actual model after they have concluded their test.

It is probably best to not use proxies when playing against a new opponent out of courtesy. In larger games it can be hard to keep track of wargear that is WYSIWYG when you standing 3 feet away from a squad of little 28mm figures - proxies just further complicate the matter.

It is probably best to not use proxies when playing against a new opponent out of courtesy

That's certainly a fair statement. Beginners have enough on their plate keeping their own stuff straight, let alone remembering that those Orks with choppas are actually a Deathwing Command squad with Apothecary. lol

EDIT:

The hate towards proxies in this thread isn't directed towards the guy who is testing out a unit or 2. I'd say the main issue is when it becomes hard to differentiate between multiple units and/or the player using the proxies cannot be bothered to buy the actual model after they have concluded their test.

Yeah, like I said earlier, I totally get the hate when someone's showing up with a xeroxed codex and chess pieces every week. lol It's just that some have made blanket statements that imply they will never accept it at all under any circumstances.

 Trondheim wrote:
I hate proxying with a deep burning passion, it is my belife if that you take the time to collect, build and maintain whatever army you play you should take the time to at least use the correct models.

Some of us don't have the time and/or money to constantly update our models to fit new editions and new rules.

As I said before, I use proxies. I set my army down and look at my opponent and tell him - all the Termagants are basic, no upgrades. Both Tervigons have the same load-out, only difference is possibly psychic powers (though when you only roll 1-3 you tend to get the same powers). Suddenly there is no worry over wait does this unit have X or does that unit have X? Either they both have X or neither has X.

It's the same with my Eldar Guardians. I run them exactly the same. Sure it means using proxies but guess what, my opponent doesn't have to worry about remembering which unit has the Bright Lance platform and which has the Scatter Laser platform.

I feel as though, as a few people have already said before me, that there's a bit of a divide on why you proxy in the first place. Everyone who seems to have a problem with it is saying that it is:
- Confusing
- Cheap (As in, why don't you just make your army WYSIWYG)

Being completely dirt poor myself, I'm inclined to ask what the issue is with proxying if it's in a setting where it's not going to be a big deal. That is to say, a pickup game, or with models that are easy to identify as to what they are. Not everyone can afford a completely new armored regiment if they failed to magnetize/make the most competitive choices on the first set.

I also notice that there is something to be said about Proxying vs. 'Counts-as'. Proxying usually implies that it's only for a game or two. As people have said, it's best implemented when "I've got the set ordered" or "Just saving up to get the real one". Counts-as is more of a long term representation, like the guy in the NZ tournament using lego battle droids. My personal opinion is that if you're proxying, keep it to a minimum, especially if it's really out there (these orks are space marine devastators), and if you're using counts-as models, and planning to continue using them that way for a long time, make it clear that they're meant to be something else.

Lastly, the general blanket hatred against proxying and people not using perfect WYSIWYG, honestly comes across as pretty elitist. A lot of us can't afford the numerous models to have subs for every strategic army combination, and basically telling us to not bother playing for fear of pissing someone off is ridiculous.

Cheers

To be honest, i dont mind people using a proxy to some degree.

If they want to test out a new model/unit before sinking £ and then alot of painting hours into it, then thats fine with me.
Nothing worse than buying a unit, spending a week painting it and it turns out its either really bad, or does not fit with your army.

If however its a regular person who keeps proxy'ing the same units time and time again, just get the units sorted.



The OP says money is a bit of an issue, yet he is now getting into WHFB aswell.
Why not sink that money into the guard so its 100% sorted before moving on to something else?

Not sure if its my OCD, but i couldn't pick up another project while leaving one nearly 100% complete

 Jackal wrote:
To be honest, i dont mind people using a proxy to some degree.

If they want to test out a new model/unit before sinking £ and then alot of painting hours into it, then thats fine with me.
Nothing worse than buying a unit, spending a week painting it and it turns out its either really bad, or does not fit with your army.

If however its a regular person who keeps proxy'ing the same units, just get the units sorted.

I agree with all of Jackal's points.

Proxies are for testing out a model on a short term basis, period. You wanna play with a model for a couple of weeks to see how the unit works? Great, no problem. After that, pony up the cash to buy the unit, or I won't play games with you where you want to use that unit again.

On the one hand, we have proxy's described as "offensive", while on the other hand, we have people who expect to play against a well painted and properly equipped army described as "elitist"

I'll just offer this. Imagine if you went to see Star Wars, but Luke's light saber was a stick, Chewbacca was a small barking beagle, R2D2 is a cola can with a light bulb, and it's being shown in black and white. If that doesn't bother you, great, more power to you. I might sit through it, especially if I'm with friends, but I definitely enjoy it more when I'm not having to try to remember what's what.

anchorbine wrote:

I'll just offer this. Imagine if you went to see Star Wars, but Luke's light saber was a stick, Chewbacca was a small barking beagle, R2D2 is a cola can with a light bulb, and it's being shown in black and white

Still better than the prequels!

With people you don't know and aren't friends with I would expect it. Not everyone likes playing proxy I mean, i personally wouldn't enjoy proxy battles but if its with someone i know and am friends with I'm more willing to let them try out different setups and such as opposed to a random person.

I think the fundemental difference is who your playing against and what the purpose of the game is.

If your playing against people you know in a pick up game go ahead proxy plastic cups.

If your playing people who you just met who you have no idea how well they play its probably best to not proxy and play what you have.

anchorbine wrote:
On the one hand, we have proxy's described as "offensive", while on the other hand, we have people who expect to play against a well painted and properly equipped army described as "elitist"

Anchorbine, I think you may have misunderstood my point, or I failed to word it well, in which case I apologize.

My point was that not everyone can afford to go out and buy components to make there armies perfectly WYSIWYG. WH40k is an expensive, time-consuming hobby and I'm not going to exclude someone or refuse to play with them because they can't pour all their time and money into the game. That being said, I completely agree that you playing against a well-painted and equipped army is much, much better. Honestly, I get pretty tired of seeing half-painted armies all the time, where the player doesn't seem to care about the state of their troops. I only find it elitist when players start acting like those of us who can't afford every troop choice are not even worth playing with, much less playing the game at all.

 SweaterKittens wrote:
I only find it elitist when players start acting like those of us who can't afford every troop choice are not even worth playing with, much less playing the game at all.

This. Blanket-banning non-WYSIWYG will cut a lot of younger (or limited spare funds) players out, because they simply can't expand fast enough. If they couldn't get games, they'd likely abandon the hobby altogether, and that just seems destructive to 40k as a whole.

I used to run a group at my high school where the younger guys would be proxying all sorts of models, borrowing from us older guys because we had models to spare. My Rhinos must have had a minor identity crisis- one week they were Predators, the next they were Trukks, then they were Devilfish, etc... We didn't mind because they were dead keen to play and learn, and were buying models whenever they could. All I told them was to bring a clear list, and tell the opponent what everything was. If we'd told them to feth off, that may well have been the last the hobby would have seen of them.

My first game with the WD SoB dex, I used Ork Boyz with yellow tunics and sluggas/choppas as DCAs, Ork Boyz with blue tunics and shootas as Crusaders, and I forget what I used as Uriah....

After that game, where they took out a large unit of Honor Guard and accompanying Chapter Master in one round of melee, I went and ordered the proper models. I also got some 3rd party models from Reaper Minis with heavy armor, swords and shields to replace the Crusaders, and a cowgirl model with a pistol and shotgun to use as Uriah (she now has had her weapons replaced with a bolt pistol and shotgun, with a chainsword slung across her back). Later I ended up converting a WHFB Chaos Sorcerer model to use as a counts-as Uriah, for reasons I'm not going to get into here.

As for painting, well, I generally don't like doing the same thing over and over again. I prefer doing new things, like figuring out a nifty conversion or kitbash I haven't done before. Painting a whole army . . . is not fun for me, and I don't enjoy painting models as much as I do building them in the first place.

My favorite moment in a game with a friend:

He was playing Orks and was proud of his newly primed Looted tank.

At one point he moved the tank.

I asked how far: it was too much.

He said "I go fasta red of course!".

I pointed at his tank.

He closed his mouth, got out a brush, popped open some red paint and smeared some over a hatch.

I said "carry-on".

Some things you just should not proxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

anchorbine wrote:
On the one hand, we have proxy's described as "offensive", while on the other hand, we have people who expect to play against a well painted and properly equipped army described as "elitist"
I'll just offer this. Imagine if you went to see Star Wars, but Luke's light saber was a stick, Chewbacca was a small barking beagle, R2D2 is a cola can with a light bulb, and it's being shown in black and white. If that doesn't bother you, great, more power to you. I might sit through it, especially if I'm with friends, but I definitely enjoy it more when I'm not having to try to remember what's what.

I would settle for the middle-ground version: Space Balls.
This is the point of having something good to look at, I can settle for the standard laid out by chess: it needs to look like the piece and get it at least primed.
It is about imagining the battle, not trying to imagine what the pieces "should" look like as well.

For those crying poor:
Got a friend right now ordering used miniatures from all over.
He is stripping paint off of every single one of them.
Even incomplete models to strip down for parts.
Ireland is a favored place, shipping seems to be cheaper from there to Canada than for us across Canada.
Anything he cannot easily get, he makes out of plasticard.
He will have a marine force of about 3000 points if it goes as planned (from what I have heard he is buying things at) ~$250.
Tactical squads at about $8, Rhinos as little as $3 (badly assembled and painted).
There is a fair bit of effort but he is getting what he wants and may shame us all for not being done with our armies.
He has already planned his painting process, he has become hard core to 40k.

with the exception of games between close friends where a squad or a single model is proxied for the sake of experimentation, i think it's insulting to the player that had worked hard, bought the parts, put them together, and painted them well when you put a clump of clay on the table and claim it to be whatever the hell is OP in your codex and perfectly matches to destroy my army composition.

To anyone that says they don't have the money for this game... that's not an excuse. This isn't crack. No one is forcing you to play this game. Work a little over-time, buy that squad you wanted, put it together, paint it, field it.

be proud of your work and accept no substitutes.

I do a small bit of proxying.

When I built my DE I really thought I wanted some of the weapon upgrades on my warriors. Many (many..) games later, I run them with the default weapon... however they are painted and it would be a complete pain to try and swap things out.

So, I'm a bit like HappyJew here and point out that "those are all basic DE warriors with the splinter rifles. Every DE warrior on the table has a splinter rifle".

Then again, when I have multiples of a unit, like Raiders, then usually ALL of them are kitted out the same way. It's a heck of a lot easier on me to keep track of what's going on... let alone my opponent. The only exception here are my Reavers... Because the weapons are underneath (and tiny) I ended up painting the bikes with special weapons with a different scheme so I can easily keep track.

I also recently proxied some wracks through a few games where one had a liquifier. It wasn't modeled on the unit so I put a token next to it so my opponent knew exactly which model had it. That said, yesterday I went ahead and mounted the liquifier on it. Wasn't happy about jacking the paint job, but I feel better about it. When I complete a few more projects I'll likely pick up another box of warriors so that I can retire the ones with the canons and DLs.


I think it's okay in a few circumstances. But please don't go crazy. In the OP I'd say the Vet squads need to have the proper guns placed on them. Otherwise it's too easy to screw up. As far as the vehicles, I'd say proxying them is fine. Unless you have multiple nearly identical models and you are calling them very different things.

 Talizvar wrote:
For those crying poor:
Got a friend right now ordering used miniatures from all over.
He is stripping paint off of every single one of them.
Even incomplete models to strip down for parts.
Ireland is a favored place, shipping seems to be cheaper from there to Canada than for us across Canada.
Anything he cannot easily get, he makes out of plasticard.
He will have a marine force of about 3000 points if it goes as planned (from what I have heard he is buying things at) ~$250.
Tactical squads at about $8, Rhinos as little as $3 (badly assembled and painted).
There is a fair bit of effort but he is getting what he wants and may shame us all for not being done with our armies.
He has already planned his painting process, he has become hard core to 40k.

I'm glad that he has $250 to spend. I'm glad that he is talented enough and able-bodied enough to be able to make models out of plasticard. I'm glad that he is able to put in the time and effort to get his army assembled and painted quickly for the disposable income that he has.

Now recognize that not everyone has that much talent, or money, or time, or physical ability. One subjective example doesn't mean anything. More power to your friend that he is able to accomplish this, though.

I prefer to play games where everything is painted, and everything is WYSIWYG, simply because it looks a great deal better than unpainted space marines that are really firewarriors with terminators that are really crisis suits and so forth.

That said, and i don't think may would disagree, proxies are totally fine by me in casual games, even if they require the occassional 'what were your silver helms again?' from time to time.

Last weekend, i wanted to try out the new Devestator Centurions, since i hadn't quite decided what i should build them as yet, or even opened the box (or bought it for that matter) i took the unit that i thought best represented them but that belonged to a different army, (old) Broadsides. no-one batted an eyelid (except the local TFG) 'oh thats an illegal army you 'have' to have a WYSIWYG army'...
GET OUT! is what we say to that attitude, because as long as both parties agree, then anything goes. hell i played against an IG player who recently started and since he likes models, all he had to represent his Leman Russ tanks was an assortment of Panzer III and IV's

DjPyro3 wrote:(Sad sob story)... Should I be ashamed for proxying?

Yes

Aleph-Sama wrote:... Not everyone has the money to drop on proper models all the time, or sometimes GW doesn't even make the model you want to use. ...

You know, I feel very minimally bad for the cost of the game. That said, if you bought enough models to play a game using proxies, then you have enough models to play a game without proxies. GW doesn't make the model you want - well, that's what conversions are for.

But some of this is just internet talk. Reality is that I regularly play against a guy who uses proxies. I don't like it. I don't like the idea that I've put time and effort into making the game visually satisfying, while he makes no effort at all. Does it mean I refuse to play him? No. Does it mean I (and others in my gaming group) don't give him crap for it? No, we make fun of him all the time. But while we're willing to make fun of him, we're not willing to exclude him, or tell him how to spend his money.

anchorbine wrote:Way more fun to play against a well painted, based and correctly equipped army then it is to play against a bunch of gray models that may or may not have the right weapons attached. I won't agree with opinion that it's "offensive", but I do think at some point, if you can't make the effort to bring your armies up to speed, you are showing a bit of disrespect to your opponents.

Yup, it's like that. This is an expensive hobby for all involved. Put some effort in.

 Talore wrote:
I'm glad that he has $250 to spend. <snip> I'm glad that he is able to put in the time and effort to get his army assembled and painted quickly for the disposable income that he has.

I identified that he was spending some $8 or less at a time for models, there is no reason someone cannot stretch the short time frame he set for himself.

I'm glad that he is talented enough and able-bodied enough to be able to make models out of plasticard.<snip >Now recognize that not everyone has that much talent, or money, or time, or physical ability.

His talent is hard-won, he researched, he practiced, it was through brute force learning and he loves what he does.
Being able bodied enough is a whole different thing that is why I specifically stated (rather callously I do admit) "crying poor".

One subjective example doesn't mean anything.

It does mean something, you look around and see cost effective means of getting what you want for your hobbies all it takes is the effort.
There is nothing special about the conditions or methods of learning applied other than the will to do it.

More power to your friend that he is able to accomplish this, though.

I am glad you can recognize the work, I was inspired as he showed me all the stages of parts: he had all the models apart and the little matching bits in separate containers.
They were all like new models, he was almost giggling where he had enough parts for some 40 odd normal marines all looking like a cut off the sprue condition.

If it's a game with new players, you should try to only play WYSIWYG. It's hard enough for them to play let alone play against models that aren't really there.

The other problem is that it can easily be taken as list tailoring. It usually goes like this,

"Hey what army do you play?"
"IG"
"Oh ok, well all my flamers are plasma guns, and all of my power weapons are power fists, and these unrelated Warmachine minis at the bottom of my case are Grav Centurions"

You see why people have a problem with it?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

The other problem is that it can easily be taken as list tailoring. It usually goes like this,

"Hey what army do you play?"
"IG"
"Oh ok, well all my flamers are plasma guns, and all of my power weapons are power fists, and these unrelated Warmachine minis at the bottom of my case are Grav Centurions"

this happened a lot at my LFGS ... by the same people, over and over again.

I

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Spoiler:

If it's a game with new players, you should try to only play WYSIWYG. It's hard enough for them to play let alone play against models that aren't really there.
The other problem is that it can easily be taken as list tailoring. It usually goes like this,
"Hey what army do you play?"
"IG"
"Oh ok, well all my flamers are plasma guns, and all of my power weapons are power fists, and these unrelated Warmachine minis at the bottom of my case are Grav Centurions"
You see why people have a problem with it?

Really explains why certain people would make a point to proxie...
It also shows when I ask for their army list why they get all weird.

And this is why when I play a pick-up game I ask for points. Not army.