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I was playing a 2600 point game today. IG VS IG and Nids. This married couple was new to the store, and the wife was new to the game, so I decided to challenge them to a match, as they seemed a tad bored and the store was pretty empty. They happily agreed and we got off to a good start, until I started listing out the units I was bringing. They saw my 2 Vet squads didn't have 3 plasma guns each (due to the fact plasma's are a little hard to come by in IG unit boxes. And my LRBT was an Executioner. (I had bought them early in my 40K career when I didn't know squat about the game, and as 17 year old I'm to poor to afford another round of Leman Russ's to make them Executioners) and I wanted tory out a Collosus instead of a Bassilisk like I normally bring because they looked cool. After they, they griped and complained constantly about my army, saying how all of their units were WYSIWYG and it was annoying to play against my army. By the end of it, I had won 9-6 but I felt so defeated due to them complaining about my army...I guess in all of this, I want to ask is this normal? Should I shell out the money to get three more Leman Russ's and get those Plasma's and just buy units I want to test out? Should I be ashamed for proxying?

If its something you constantly use then you should definitely shell out for the models. Otherwise if theres something youd just really like (colossus, medusa, ect) then go for it.

As far as bits go check out ebay. Its a great resource to find a few bits. I just checked out imperial guard plasma gun and heres just a few things i found.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.Ximperial+guard+plasma+gun&_nkw=imperial+guard+plasma+gun&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Some people do not like to play against proxies, which is why it is best to clear it before you get any models out, could you clarify if you said you would be proxying stuff before you got stuff out for the game?

I do use Plasma's quite a bit...just don't like the idea of spending 5 bucks on each plasma gunner when I've lived this long without them. And I did say I was Proxying before I got my models out, and reiterated it after I set them down on the table, because people miss stuff sometimes. I was the only guy there though...so I guess they just dealt with it.

Depends on your local gaming culture.

Here in NZ we generally don't give a gak. WSYIWYG models are better but what you gonna do?

Other areas, America chiefly amongst them from what I've seen on here, seem to be a bit more anal about this sort of thing

What was proxying as a Plasma Gunner? Could you not just paint neon blue patches on it? While there are a few people who are right into their "Plasma gun must be an official GW plasma gun" stuff, the majority should be ok with "this guy with the obvious glowing blue weapon is a plasma gunner"

Well just because you have lived without them so far doesn't mean you should, since it can come off as quite rude if you want to use a specific model, but won't because you can proxy all the time.

That being said, since you made it clear up front that you were proxying and they agreed they had no reason to complain.

Perhaps they merely found your proxies confusing, could you clarify what you proxied each thing with?

Ehh. Proxies are no big deal, if you make an effort to be clear. I just played against 750 points of Tau, which consisted of:

36 Fire Warriors (basecoated Marines)
Cadre Fireblade (Broken shadowsun model)
Crisis suits (Terminators from DV kit)
Marker drones (baseless gun and missile drones)

...and it was a great game! Just don't purposely confuse your opponent. Proxying is the best!

I'd say get the models. Strangers proxying stuff reeks of "Well I just thought I'd suddenly tailor my list to best handle your army".

With people you've played before, if they normally do wysiwyg, then a proxy now and then to test stuff out is okay. Although to be honest proxying the amount of stuff you did I'd be pissed even if a friend did it. One or two units max in my opinion, after that you're just trolling.

My roommate is always broke and has almost entirely Dark Vengeance models, save a Heldrake, Abby, and some Terminators. He doesn't have the money to go out and buy new models, he pays his bills first. My fiance and I are strapped for cash at the model because of mounting bills, so I let her proxy some of her space wolves as sisters for the time being. My army on the other hand is almost entirely WYSIWYG, save one model, and Arjac is just proxying his replacement for the time being! Not everyone has the money to drop on proper models all the time, or sometimes GW doesn't even make the model you want to use. It's always up to the players on what's what, and if it's okay to use that unit or not.

I'm known in the store for always taking Plasma's. I just can't resiest them. Honestly, I would have taken less plasma's and more flamers if I tailored, because both were running horde versions of their armies. But, this was what I was Proxying in the game.

-Vet Squads had 2 actual Plasma guns and a Melta. The other had one plasma gun and two grenade launchers. I told them all special weapons in the Vet squads were Plasma's. Everything else was Lasguns and the Sarge.

-I had one Leman Russ Battle Tank be an Executioner.

-One Bassilisk as a Collosus. Everything else was WYSIWYG.

Dakamite, I do like your idea actually. If I paint the muzzles of the gun bright blue, it would be very easy to identify them.

Proxies are particularly hard on new gamers because it is just one more thing to remember so it can be irritating.

I can understand not feeling you can afford some models.
A friend of mine makes a lot of stuff for his army so when he fields it, you can tell what each model has.

Really trying to play WYSIWYG would take precedence so do try to play to that standard.
I go a step further and "color code" everything: Blue: power weapon and lascannon, Red: Ranged Weapon, Hazard Stripe: melee / physical damage, Green: Plasma, Purple: Gravity weapon, Brass/Bronze: Flamer/Melta, etc...

If I were those people however I would "mention" that I had difficulty remembering the proxies but thanks for the game...

Well in that case they agreed to play with some fairly clear proxies, the only thing I could see them griping about is not having your 3 plasmas in 1 squad and the three proxies together.

I have no problem when people proxy to try new units out, or to test a build, or because they are waiting to pick up a piece. I generally get frustrated by people that continually proxy and have multiple proxies which gets confusing.

I go through effort and money to try and be WYSIWYG and expect other to at least make an effort. Also, I like to play in tournaments and it kills me to see people proxy at the local tournament level, but I am generally a good sport about it and let it slide so long as someone say, "I have them on order..." or "I am saving up for them..." or "I'm trying this unit out." etc.


Go on a bits site and spend a couple of bucks to make your army all that much more enjoyable to play against.

Fortunately I haven't encountered it IRL yet, but I would not be able to stand it if someone was intolerant of proxies. Not everyone is made of money, ya know.

I didn't think they would have much trouble, since only the wife was new. The husband was I think a decade long veteran.

It's been my experience that people who play as a team are people you want to avoid anyway. Families, couples, I've never encountered a situation where they play fair. Part and parcel to not playing fair is that when someone DOES defeat them, they throw a fit or get incredibly standoffish. I'm not saying families or couples who play together can't be above board and good sports, (when my son is old enough to play, we certainly will be!) but I've never seen it happen.

My only problem with proxying would be poorly done ones (wrong sizes, etc), or particularly confusing ones. I'd also have a problem with people who consistently proxy the same thing over and over again.

Proxying is totally fine if the model is at least similar in size/shape. I'd also expect a certain effort in trying to convert/build/purchase an appropriate WYSIWYG model.

Hmmm. Proxies where I play are generaly quite accepted. Boltguns can be combi weapons, rhinos can be razorbacks, termies can be captains, guardsmen can be stormtroopers, etc. I find it odd that they complained so much as you say. Are you sure you ain't exagerating?

I don't mind proxies only if it is with a friend who wants to try a new build. Against someone I don't regularly play, I prefer them to use WYSIWYG as it keeps things simple.

Sadly there are also people out there who will proxy and use the confusion to their advantage.

If it is something simple like oh BTW these havocs have lascannons and not autocannons.... that is usually fine.

It is just annoying when its: that squad of marines has 2 plasma guns and a PF, that squad has a power axe and 2 flamers, etc.... (when all the marines are modeled with bolters and metlas)

Agreed, but in the OP's case I think his proxies weren't unreasonably confusing, but as we only have 1 side of the story, I don't really think we can comment much further.

Perhaps the OP could post a pic of his army and the proxied units to see how much they stand apart from the rest of the army.

OT: OP you may want to head over to P and M tutorials and find Snrub's special weapon guides for guard, you can make some pretty cheap plasma with your spare guard parts.

Largeblastmarker wrote:Hmmm. Proxies where I play are generaly quite accepted. Boltguns can be combi weapons, rhinos can be razorbacks, termies can be captains, guardsmen can be stormtroopers, etc. I find it odd that they complained so much as you say. Are you sure you ain't exagerating?

I promise you, I'm not, or it wouldn't really have bothered me to begin with. I know they need to be replaced eventually, but I'd rather get the army operational (And I'm getting into Fantasy as well, which is sucking away what little money I have faster than a vacuum). And honestly, no one has ever had a problem with it until today. It was jarring.

gossipmeng wrote:I don't mind proxies only if it is with a friend who wants to try a new build. Against someone I don't regularly play, I prefer them to use WYSIWYG as it keeps things simple.

Sadly there are also people out there who will proxy and use the confusion to their advantage.

If it is something simple like oh BTW these havocs have lascannons and not autocannons.... that is usually fine.

It is just annoying when its: that squad of marines has 2 plasma guns and a PF, that squad has a power axe and 2 flamers, etc.... (when all the marines are modeled with bolters and metlas)

I've never, ever taken advantage of what I proxy. I think it's foolish to cheat in a game of toy models. And it's always simple. Like "This entire squad are Plasma's." Or "This Yellow tank is a Executioner." I try to make it as simple as possible, because it is my fault they are are proxied.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Krellnus wrote:
Agreed, but in the OP's case I think his proxies weren't unreasonably confusing, but as we only have 1 side of the story, I don't really think we can comment much further.

Perhaps the OP could post a pic of his army and the proxied units to see how much they stand apart from the rest of the army.

OT: OP you may want to head over to P and M tutorials and find Snrub's special weapon guides for guard, you can make some pretty cheap plasma with your spare guard parts.

I"ll have the pics up in a moment.

DjPyro3 wrote:

Largeblastmarker wrote:Hmmm. Proxies where I play are generaly quite accepted. Boltguns can be combi weapons, rhinos can be razorbacks, termies can be captains, guardsmen can be stormtroopers, etc. I find it odd that they complained so much as you say. Are you sure you ain't exagerating?

I promise you, I'm not, or it wouldn't really have bothered me to begin with. I know they need to be replaced eventually, but I'd rather get the army operational (And I'm getting into Fantasy as well, which is sucking away what little money I have faster than a vacuum). And honestly, no one has ever had a problem with it until today. It was jarring.

sounds like they aren't very nice people then, that's all.

I'm cool with using small amounts of proxies in smaller games, but if we're at 2k points and half your army is proxies, I won't be having as much fun.

Because if you're an honest person, at least one model will get confused for something it isn't. And if you're a liar (and to be fair, at a pickup game I have no idea who you are) you could abuse the heck out of it. I've had people try it, and I know that's why some people are always leery of proxies.

However, the occasional "I'm proxying this because this unit has terrible rules but I always wanted to try it." is cool, as is "I want to try this in a game before I buy it.

Also, if you need plasma guns, GW sells them direct for cheaper than bitz sites do (shocking, I know) just buy a few packs of them there. Your opponents will thank you for it

These are the general poses of my infantry men. If you want both squads, I can get them out, but I'd rather just pull out 6 men than 20. I also apologize for the weird lighting on those pics...no idea why my phone did that. But are those special weapons to hard to tell apart from the las?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm cool with using small amounts of proxies in smaller games, but if we're at 2k points and half your army is proxies, I won't be having as much fun.

Because if you're an honest person, at least one model will get confused for something it isn't. And if you're a liar (and to be fair, at a pickup game I have no idea who you are) you could abuse the heck out of it. I've had people try it, and I know that's why some people are always leery of proxies.

However, the occasional "I'm proxying this because this unit has terrible rules but I always wanted to try it." is cool, as is "I want to try this in a game before I buy it.

Also, if you need plasma guns, GW sells them direct for cheaper than bitz sites do (shocking, I know) just buy a few packs of them there. Your opponents will thank you for it

GW sells bitz directly? I had no idea! And pretty cheap to. Guess I really don't have any excuse to get those Plasma's on my Vet's. Thanks for pointing that out.

I don't really see anything with the above, it seems based off what we have been told they were just being whiny.

It's not normal in NZ. As Dakkamite said, we really don't care, even at tournaments. I've played against a Necron army comprised of Lego battle droids at a tourney, and neither me or his other opponents batted an eyelid.

That said, it does depend on each individual opponent you play, and it's worth clarifying how much they care about WYSIWYG before you start. But using Russes as other Russes and a Basilisk as a Colossus shouldn't really be a big deal if explained. The Vets might be slightly more complex, but as long as the models are somehow differentiated it's not an issue in my book.

Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

Makumba wrote:
Proxy models are offensive . You don't seem to be a new player, but the other players wife was. all she learned from the game was , that it is foolish to buy higher cost models as proxing is cheaper. In fact I wouldn't want to be in the guys shoes and have to explain to his wife , why she had to buy her army , while others just proxy stuff.
If you want to test models you don't have you should be running vassal.

This sounds like you think she must have been unintelligent or something. He obviously explained to them.And I think a husband and wife have better things to talk about than that kid who was using proxy models.

Oh yes.... Just out of curiosity OP, what general region of the US were you playing in?

I myself have never played a game, been mostly buying and painting the models, but I know it would be a big turn-off if one of my first games was against someone who was using proxies. In my opinion you should be trying to make it as simple, and helpful on the new player as possible. When you start adding all your proxies it looks like an attempt to be more competitive than necessary toward a new player.

Again, just my opinion but I can see her frustration, especially considering you were the only one in the store.

I don't mind proxies that make are clearly stated. I also don't mind proxies to try stuff out. What bothers me, is when there is a proxy that isn't even trying.

Like a somebody who keeps using cans as drop pods.

I've had a guy who kept using an empty blister pack, and kept saying it was a second heldrake. I told him get a flying base at least, or drop the second drake. He refused so I didn't play him. I don't really mind if it's at least got a proper base or makes sense of it and we clearly know what it does.